Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Deryck Chan and Camp Shelby: Difference between pages

(Difference between pages)
Content deleted Content added
m forgot to update the counter
 
Jfurr1981 (talk | contribs)
No edit summary
 
Line 1:
'''Camp Shelby''' is a military post approximately 15 miles south of [[Hattiesburg, Mississippi]], on [[United States Highway 49]]. It is the largest state owned training site in the nation, has a long history of serving the country and is considered by many as “a national treasure.” During wartime, the camp's mission is to serve as a major, independent mobilization station of the [[U.S. Army Forces Command]] (FORSCOM). Camp Shelby Training Site is the largest reserve component training site, covering 136,000 acres, allowing up to battalion level maneuver training, Gunnery Table 8-12, excellent FA Firing Points and a wide range of support facilities. This is the normal Annual Training ___location for [[National Guard]] and Reserve units located in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennesse. However, units from accross the country use its excellent assets to support a varity of missions. The 2nd BN, 114th FA conducts its gunnery and has the bulk of its combat equipment stored in the Mobilization and Annual Training Equipment Site (MATES) located there.
===[[User:Deryck Chan|Deryck Chan]]===
'''[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Deryck Chan|action=edit}} Vote here] '''
'''(13/7/7) ending <nowiki>15:12</nowiki> October 7 (UTC)'''
 
Camp Shelby Training Site (CSTS), encompassing over 525 square kilometers, is located in portions of [[Perry County, Mississippi|Perry]] and [[Forrest County, Mississippi|Forrest]] Counties, in south Mississippi. The training site was established during [[World War I]] and it has served almost continuously since then as a training site, not only for the Reserve Components of the Army, but also for the Active Components of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force. The training site consists of a mix of State, [[Department of Defense]], and [[U.S. Forest Service]] lands in the [[DeSoto National Forest]].
{{User|Deryck Chan}} – Deryck has been with us actively since May of this year, first as [[User:Deryckchan|Deryckchan]], and presently as [[User:Deryck Chan|Deryck Chan]]. He has over 2600 edits between the two accounts, with edits spread out among the namespace. He is involved in editing and writing [[Hong Kong]] related articles and has contributed several FAs already. In addition, he has also helped me maintain [[WP:MIND]]. I feel that this is a worthy [[Wikipedian]] who deserves a mop and bucket. [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] |<small> [[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color = brown> note? ]]</font color>| [[User:Flcelloguy/Desk|Desk]] </small>| [[Wikipedia:Signpost|W]]<sub>[[Wikipedia:Signpost|S]] </sub> 15:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 
Encompassing more than 134,820 acres, Camp Shelby, Mississippi is the largest state-owned and operated field training site in the United States. It is a training ground for the [[M1 Abrams|Abrams M1 Tank]], [[Paladin Howitzers]] and home to the 3rd Brigade 87th Division Training Support. Camp Shelby serves as a training site for National Guardsmen and Reservists from throughout the country hosting as many as 100,000 personnel annually.
:''Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:''
::I accept the nomination as a candidate for adminship. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 15:46, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 
Camp Shelby was established in 1917. The Post was named in honor of [[Isaac Shelby]], Indian fighter, Revolutionary War hero and 1st Governor of Kentucky, by the first troops to train here, the [[38th Division]].
'''Support'''
# Guess I'll have to, eh? [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] |<small> [[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color = brown> note? ]]</font color>| [[User:Flcelloguy/Desk|Desk]] </small>| [[Wikipedia:Signpost|W]]<sub>[[Wikipedia:Signpost|S]] </sub> 15:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Support''' [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] 16:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Sure, why not?''' [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 16:43, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Although I've only come across him via [[WP:MIND]], rather than on articles, I've seen nothing that suggests to me he shouldn't be an admin. [[User:KeithD|KeithD]] [[User_talk:KeithD|(talk)]] 16:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. When I've come accross him, he seems to be level-headed and a good editor. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[User_talk:Titoxd|xd]]</font> 17:57, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' His help with me on [[Wikipedia:Barnstars on Wikipedia]] was above and beyond the call of duty. I'm going to vote for him 10 times, but you don't have to count the last 9. ;-) [[User:Karmafist|Karmafist]] 18:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#[[User:Journalist|<font color=000066>→Jo<font color=0000CC>urna<font color=0033FF>list</font>]] [[User talk:Journalist|<font color=0066FF>>>talk<<</font>]] 18:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#[[User:Bart133|Bart133]] [[User talk:Bart133|(t)]] 22:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - dedicated to the project. No reason in my mind that he wouldn't make a good admin. --[[user:Celestianpower|Cel]]<font color="green">[[WP:ESP|e]]</font>[[User:celestianpower|stianpower]] <sup>[[user talk:Celestianpower|hablamé]]</sup> 22:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''extreme support'''--[[User:Exir Kamalabadi|Exir Kamalabadi]]<sup><font color = limegreen>[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|Esperanza]]</font color></sup> 01:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Strong support.''' He is very active and dedicated. --[[User:Microtony|Microtony]] 1:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#[[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 19:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#[[User:Merovingian|{{User:Merovingian/Sig}}]] [[User talk:Merovingian|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Merovingian|(c)]] 05:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 
In 1934, the State of Mississippi acquired the site for use as a summer camp by the National Guard. Because of Camp Shelby's natural advantages of climate, terrain and ___location, it was reopened in 1940 as a federal installation. Some of the divisions that have trained in Mississippi include the 31st, 37th, 38th, 43rd, 63rd, 65th, 69th, 85th, 94th, and the 99th Divisions.
'''Oppose'''
#'''Oppose''' I just don't believe this person would be a good admin, from what I've seen. [[User:Private Butcher|Private Butcher]] 18:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' The "Support Me" signature smacks of campaigning, which I find distateful. --[[User:Rogerd|Rogerd]] 07:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#*<s>'''Oppose'''. Might be willing to reconsider if user removes RfA link from his signature, and stops using transcluded templates as a signature- the preferences page explicitly warns not to do this, and it is an easy vandalism target. <font color="red">[[User:Ral315|Ral]]</font><font color="green">[[User talk:Ral315|315]]</font> <font color="blue">[[WP:SIGN|W<sub>S</sub>]]</font> 20:12, 1 October 2005 (UTC)</s>
#*:Moved to neutral.
#'''Oppose''' - <s>transcluding signatures is a drain on the system.</s> Campaigning in that signature is not good form. Voting for yourself is not good form, either. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] <sup>''[[User_talk:Robchurch|Talk]]''</sup> 20:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#:I'd ''like'' to see him going and removing all instances of that damn transclusion ''everywhere'' to reduce the drain on the system further. However, I won't advise it because you'll bugger up the page caching and further drain the system. If possible, ''try to reduce'' any instances of this that you come across. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] <sup>''[[User_talk:Robchurch|Talk]]''</sup> 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#::Hope you may clarify: any instances of ''what''? [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' I generally hate to do this but all this campaigning isn't a good use of judgment in my opinion, putting so much time in on [[WP:MIND]] when there's so many backlogs concerns me. I don't see much RC patrol/vandal fighting...I guess I'd like to see a broader particapation. Great energy and very positive though! [[User:Rx StrangeLove|Rx StrangeLove]] 23:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#:To Ral315, Kelly, Rob and all others who oppose my use of transcluding signatures: that signature was originally an idea of [[user:Omegatron|Omegatron]] and others who thought my HTML-Wikimarkup blended signature was too hasty to be seen in source codes. Now I've changed them to the raw code form and removed all campaigning text. Hope you'll reconsider your vote. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 10:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
#::Use a less colourful and less intricate signature if people are going to complain. There again, the code for your signature doesn't appear to be to bad; I've seen far longer. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] <sup>''[[User_talk:Robchurch|Talk]]''</sup> 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. I strongly dislike campaigning for adminship &mdash; an editor that has earned the trust of the community and edited enough for the Wikipedia community to be aware of him or her should be able to pass RfA without campaigning, and choosing to campaign when it should be unnecessary shows poor judgment (actually, it was the user's campaigning that brought me to this vote page). Additionally, the points brought up by the neutral and other opposing users give me further doubts about this request. &mdash;[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|reply]]) 23:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
#:Just little curiousity: Where did you find me campaigning? [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' still WAAAAAY too green in the political/user interaction aspect of the job of administrator. I dont know if this comes from his non-native use of the english language, or perhaps just inexperience, in either case I dont feel this is the appropriate time to promote him... perhaps in a few months. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]][[Image:Radioactive.png|18px|]] 07:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. I like your enthusiasm, but think it's a little too early. You seem to act before reading the guidelines on what you're doing, like with those FAC oppose votes that people have mentioned, and I think that campaigning for support votes [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Deryck_Chan&oldid=24448393 this blatantly] was another example of this. I understand that you don't repeat your mistakes once they're pointed out, and there's plenty in your favour - eg going out of your way to welcome new people - but I'd rather you spent a few more months on here before becoming an admin. [[User:Cantthinkofagoodname|CTOAGN]] 19:22, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 
The famous [[Japanese American 442nd Regimental Combat Team]] and the [[100th Battalion]] trained here in preparation for [[World War II]]. [[Women's Army Corps]] (WAC) units also trained here. The Post contained a large convalescent hospital and had a prisoner of war camp which housed members of the German Afrika Corps.
'''Neutral'''
*<s>'''Neutral''' - until questions are answered. I would just not bother with voting yet but seeing as the nominated voted himself, we can be sure that he has seen the page. --[[user:Celestianpower|Cel]]<font color="green">[[WP:ESP|e]]</font>[[User:celestianpower|stianpower]] <sup>[[user talk:Celestianpower|hablamé]]</sup> 16:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)</s>
*: Switch to support. --[[user:Celestianpower|Cel]]<font color="green">[[WP:ESP|e]]</font>[[User:celestianpower|stianpower]] <sup>[[user talk:Celestianpower|hablamé]]</sup> 22:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
*::Thank you very much. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 01:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#Neutral for now - I think he just needs a couple more months' seasoning and showing consistent cluefulness. I think his dedication to the project is obvious - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 16:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Neutral''' - Difficult candidate to evaluate - most of the edits in the past 500 are all in the mind benders... which while neat doesn't help me evaluate at all. Also doesn't use edit summaries much. <small>[[User:RN|Ryan Norton]] <sup><font color="#6BA800">[[User talk:RN|T]]</font> | <font color="#0033FF">[[Special:Emailuser/RN|@]]</font> | <font color="#FF0000">[[Special:Contributions/RN|C]]</font></sup></small> 20:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#:A little reply: You may choose "(main)" in the namespace drop-down to evaluate my work on articles. That page can actually reflect my work to the wikipedia according to your criteria. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 02:21, 1 October 2005 (UTC)`
#'''Neutral''' - needs more variety on articles he edits. aOnly 528 distinct pages is not enough IMO. Once he gets up in that counter, I will be happy to support. [[User:Jossifresco|&asymp; jossi &asymp;]] 20:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#'''Neutral''' for the time being. I can see the overwhelming effort made by Deryck, particularly in Hong Kong- and science-related articles, and he's indeed a gung-ho wikipedian. But sometimes this young man might be too reckless in communicating with other contributors (maybe he should mind his language every now and then). I'll wait and see, trying to make my vote later on. Good luck! ;-) -- [[User:Mcy jerry|Jerry Crimson Mann]] 10:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
#'''Neutral''' for now, would be happy to support in a few months barring further incidents. <font color="red">[[User:Ral315|Ral]]</font><font color="green">[[User talk:Ral315|315]]</font> <font color="blue">[[WP:SIGN|W<sub>S</sub>]]</font> 13:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#<s>'''Oppose'''</s>. I was trying to remember why I had such a negative impression of Deryck, and then it occured to me that it originated with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AFeatured_article_candidates%2FNorman_Borlaug&diff=17896991&oldid=17892197 this] and similar FAC edits he made in June (which he mentions in his answer to question 3). Additionally, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_adminship%2FDeryck_Chan&diff=24406922&oldid=24404764 voting for yourself] doesn't show an ideal understanding of process, and despite a massive amount of Wikipedia edits, the total is misleading since the majority of them are connected with Wikipedia:Mind Benders, and he rarely seems to enter the really contentious areas. His contributions to Wikipedia:FAC recently seem obsessed with pictures only, and he rarely uses edit summaries. His edits also indicated some difficulty with English, and although this isn't a reason in and of itself to oppose, it could pose problems as an admin. If this sounds harsh, I should offset it by saying that I believe he's a good editor, but that I just can't trust him with adminship at this point in time. I'm also curious as to an example of an article that he thinks was "protected unreasonably". --[[User:Scimitar|Scimitar]] [[User talk:Scimitar|<sup>parley</sup>]] 16:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#:First, about the voting-for-myself problem, I must say sorry, for it is quite impossible for me to understand an unwritten social custom before I get trapped by it. Second, a little reply for the "protected unreasonably" question. The article [[Kowloon Tong (MTR)]] was protected without any discussion or given reason from early June to September. Third, about the "no contentious edit" question. [[Rubidium hydroxide]] and [[Rubidium oxide]] are 2 examples of articles written completely by myself in terms of content. I understand the fact that I gave a really negative impression to you and no matter what I do you will not turn to support. What I'm doing with this reply is, simply, to clarify your concerns for other potential voters. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#::Not that negative an impression. If I was so close-minded as to be unwilling to change my vote after reasoned discussion with a good editor, I wouldn't be much of an admin myself, would I? Would you be willing to commit to using edit summaries in future?--[[User:Scimitar|Scimitar]] [[User talk:Scimitar|<sup>parley</sup>]] 18:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
#:::Yes. May I ask a little question: Do I need to put an edit summary when I edit my own user page or use the "new section" button in talk pages? (In the latter you just ''can't'' have a summary). [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 01:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#::::I have been using edit summaries a lot since I became an admin, because I committed to doing so during my adminship discussion. I haven't been consistently using summaries in my own user pages, however. When you use the new section button, the edit summary doubles as "Subject/headline" field, so it's hard to avoid giving a summary there. I have some javascript which forces me into using edit summaries except on my user pages - let me know if you'd like to try it. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 15:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
#:Scimitar, I think its bad form that you haul up Deryck Chan for his English. I see nothing wrong with his english, and I personally, can very well understand users who have rated themselves with "en-1" in commons:. Secondly, I think its a bit harsh to single Deryck for a single edit which happened in June. He was probably new to FAC then, he's learnt from his mistakes. I remember that edit very well, and let me assure you he hasn't repeated it in FAC ever since. {{User:Nichalp/sg}} 09:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
#::I'm afraid if I've come across harsher than I intended. The edit in June was the reason I remembered Deryck, and I merely noted his English, which is certainly passable, and I meant no offense by. Following Deryck's assurance that he'd use edit summaries, I've switched to neutral, as I don't feel strongly enough to oppose at this point. That said, I just don't know how Deryck would respond in potential conflicts, so I'm not confident enough to make this an outright support, either. I hope I've caused no offense.--[[User:Scimitar|Scimitar]] [[User talk:Scimitar|<sup>parley</sup>]] 14:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#:Thank you. Also thanks to God who showed you the truth about me. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
#<s>'''Oppose'''. Use of transcluded signature is Major Bad Mojo. If editor replaces signature, will reconsider. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 20:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)</s> Editor has stopped transcluding signature; however, still have concerns about campaigning. '''Neutral'''. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 13:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 
The post closed shortly after the end of World War II. During the [[Korean Conflict]], Camp Shelby was established as an Emergency Railhead Facility.
'''Comments'''
*In addition to [[WP:MIND]], I'm also an ad-hoc administrator in [[WP:HKCOTW]] and [[WP:SCOTW]]. I also contribute massively to [[chemistry]] related articles besides [[Hong Kong]] related ones (see [[impurity]] and [[sexual reproduction]], for example). [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 02:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
*I find it a little distasteful that his user page says: ''Deryck for Admin!!!! Go and support me at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Deryck Chan!!!'' Not "please have a look at what I've done and give your opinion of me," but "go and support me!"
*:Thanks for your opinion. I will change the wordings as you find that distrateful. Just a little fact: I copied the approximate design from the notice when [[user:Essjay|Essjay]] and [[user:Redwolf24|Redwolf24]] were on RfA and RfB. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
*::Wording changed from "Go and support me" to "Come and cast a vote". [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 16:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 
In the summer of 1954, non-divisional National Guard units trained at Camp Shelby and in 1956, it was designated a permanent training site by Continental Army Command (now Forces Command). Over 5,000 troops were processed through Camp Shelby during Desert Storm Operations.
'''Questions for the candidate'''<br />
:From the pillbox I inquire:
'''1.'''The answer to Q3 indicates you learned something (swell!) about how the project works from an incident. Do you really think it's to the projects advantage to let "the other side keep their edits" if it means possible POV or falsehoods in articles?
:I am sure about that, because only if both sides have considerable points and arguments in a debate will neither side tend to give up. Therefore, to compare between accepting one side's opinions or keeping the debate fiercely unconcluded, the former should be preferred as this brings both reading conveniece to readers of the articles and peace to the editors. [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 17:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
'''2.'''How would you act, as an admin, to help defuse situations between other editors?
:I'll point out some neutral facts about the issue and draw the dispute to concensus with the support of these facts. (Thanks Scimitar for pointing out these questions.) [[User:Deryck Chan|<font color=#007dff>De</font><font color=green>ryc</font>]][[User talk:Deryck Chan|<font color=brown>k C.</font>]] 17:08, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 
Camp Shelby is also home to the [[Youth Challenge Program]] (a boot camp for troubled youths)and the [[Mississippi Armed Forces Museum]].
''A few generic questions to provide guidance for voters:''
:'''1.''' What sysop chores, if any, would you anticipate helping with? (Please read the page about [[Wikipedia:administrators|administrators]] and the [[Wikipedia:administrators' reading list|administrators' reading list]].)
::'''A''': I'll anticipate to help fighting vandalism. In addition, I will try to unprotect pages which have been protected unreasonably for a long time.
:'''2.''' Of your articles or contributions to Wikipedia, are there any about which you are particularly pleased, and why?
::'''A''': I think '''[[Sun Yat-sen]]''' is my most-pleased contribution to Wikipedia. 2 months ago, I spot a project from another user ([[user:Borisblue|Borisblue]]) ,who doesn't know Chinese, is hiring a Cantonese man to improve this biography. I volunteered, and eventually, the article was expanded, split into sections, given more and more contexts, and later on even exploded out a section into another separate article! Per the advice of the Boris, I put the article onto [[WP:PR]] and later [[WP:FAC]]. In the FAC, many objections were raised and a big number of improvements were made. Now, the article is a featured article which is going to appear on the Main Page on 8 October. This article pleased me so much because this is the FA which I put the most amound of time and efforts into. It really pleased me much.
:'''3.''' Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or do you feel other users have caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
::'''A''': It was in June when I first encountered an FAC of the article [[Hong Kong]]. As it was the first FAC that I did anything with, I simply didn't know the rules and made tens of people angry. '''Hereby, I apologize for all those faults I made 3 months ago, and hope those I've made angry in June can support me''' by observing the fact that I've personally successfully nominated 2 articles into FA which is a sign showing I understand the rules now. In the end, with the help of a certain number of helpful users who explained me with all those rules, I gradually learnt to observe the rules. These days, edit conflicts seldom reach me anymore, but in case it does, I'll convert wars on article namespace to debates on talk namespace and seek for concensus. If a concensus is really unreachable, I can give up my own opinions and let the other side keep their edits.