Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language
Wikipedia:Reference desk/headercfg
July 8
Essays
Hi, it is not right or unacceptable to use subheadings in an essay? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.250.142.231 (talk • contribs) 07:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'd say it depends on the length of the essay. An essay that's only a few hundred words long probably isn't detailed enough to require subheadings. One that's several thousand words long might be. —Angr 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
80's / 90's childrens book
I was wondering if anyone remembers childrens book called manilla gorilla or morilla gorilla? I am trying to find a copy and I cant even find reference to this on the internet through any search engine. Does anyone know abou the book I am thinking of?
Thanks Allison —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.184.162.38 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about Vanilla Gorilla by William New, ISBN 978-0921870579.--Shantavira|feed me 10:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Or a book based on the TV series Magilla Gorilla. --Anonymous, July 8, 2007, 20:44 (UTC).
- ...of which there are several.[1] --LambiamTalk 21:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
translation
I have found something written in what looks like greek, apart from a few letter, which somehow aren't. I would like to know what it means, but my attempts at translating it haven't worked. Searching for any of it on wikipedia and wiktionary hasn't helped either. So I have come here to ask how I should go about translating it into english. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.142.87.10 (talk • contribs) 11:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Can you upload a scan of it so we can see what it looks like? —Angr 11:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- We can't tell without seeing it, but a possibility is Coptic, which uses a Greek alphabet with some extra letters. --ColinFine 23:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Latin translation
Does anybody know what "Vitreo daturus nomina ponto" means? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KeeganB (talk • contribs) 12:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Literally, "about to give names to a glassy sea". It's an allusion to Icarus, said by Horace of anyone trying to imitate Pindar (a modern writer would have said "They'll crash and burn"). —Angr 12:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Identify this Asian glyph
Can someone identify the rightmost glyph in this image? Ideally, I need to know the Unicode codepoint. Thanks a lot! --bdesham ★ 14:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's a form of 文 (U+6587). --Ptcamn 14:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- The exact same glyph appear in the stroke order demonstration found with the Wiktionary entry: 文. Mike Dillon 15:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you both for your responses! U+6587 was what I wanted. --bdesham ★ 17:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- The exact same glyph appear in the stroke order demonstration found with the Wiktionary entry: 文. Mike Dillon 15:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Assistance =
- I am looking for someone to help me with the following languages: Japanese (according to the Wiki scale, I'm on level 3), French (2), Arabic (2), Mandarin (1), Russian (0), Farsi (0), Old English (0), and Aramaic. I am a native in Hebrew, so I can exchange languages.
- What does it say in the Greek quotes in Wilde's 'Lotus Leaves' and 'The True Knowldege' (not appearing in Wikisource, for some reason)?
- Could someone explain to me more about poetic Japanese, old/middle Japanese, and formal Japanese?
Thank you in advance, 瀬人様 15:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- This would be a good place to ask more specific questions.
- The epigraph to Wilde's "Lotus Leaves" is Odyssey, Book 4, lines 195-198 (trans. Lattimore: "I find nothing wrong with / crying for a mortal who's died and met his fate. /Indeed, this is the only prize at all for wretched mortals, / to cut one's hair and let tears fall from one's cheeks."). The epigraph to "The True Knowledge" is a fragment from Euripides' lost play Hypsipyle, which may be translated "And it necessarily holds that life is mown down, like a fruitful ear of wheat, and one man goes on being, while another does not."
- See Old Japanese, Late Old Japanese. Wareh 16:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm asking for someone who speaks these languages to make contact with me and converse with me in this language (talking about poetry and literature would be best).
- Thank you very much ^^
- Thank you :) But I'm looking also for the Japanese used afterwards, primarily at the Edo period. 瀬人様 16:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Wikiversity would be an excellent place to find this sort of help. There's a list of fluent French speakers eager to help new learners over there (at the French Department) already, and a few of us have studied some Old English and could perhaps help with that, as well. The Jade Knight 03:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Ħ
How are the Ħs in words like Ħello and Saħħa pronounced? The article on it isn't much help without a decent understanding of language, which I don't have. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.142.87.10 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- You can listen to this sound file to hear it. —Angr 16:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the Maltese sound, then it's a voiceless pharyngeal. AnonMoos 08:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Paint the town red
Where does this expression come from please? (I'm not interested in the record of that name). -- SGBailey 18:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, Revised Edition by Ivor H. Evans (Cassells, 1981) is not very helpful: "To have a gay, noisy time; to cause some disturbance in town by having a noisy and disorderly spree. A phrase of American origin." (p. 823). Then there is another expert's view: "This colorful term for a wild spree, especially one involving much drinking, probably originated on the frontier. In the nineteenth century the section of town where brothels and saloons were located was known as the 'red light district.' So a group of lusty cowhands out for a night 'on the town' might very well take it into their heads to make the whole town red." (Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). Google also notes the town in England which is more famous for its Melton Mowbray pork pies as claiming the honour from an actual incident of the town being so painted by the Marquis of Waterford and his rowdy friends in 1837 [2]. In short, no one seems to be quite sure. Bielle 19:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks -- SGBailey 19:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- "The allusion is to the kind of unruly behaviour that results in much blood being spilt." See [[3]]. (JosephASpadaro 02:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC))
July 9
Dual meaning
What is the technical name of the device where a word has another meaning apart from that wehich is obvious? Thanks in advsnce.
- you may mean pun, double entendre or connotation. Cheers--K.C. Tang 01:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean obvious in the context of use, or obvious per se? Also, is the ambiguity intentional, or accidental (like in the requirement that "Hard hats must be worn on this site at all times"[4])? Could you give a few examples of what you mean? --LambiamTalk 06:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
![[4]](http://www.greenham.com/images/products/249848.jpg){kind=link}
- Am I being a bit slow here? What is the ambiguity in the Hard Hat sentence?Cyta 07:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It could be taken as forbidding hard hats to be worn anywhere else; there may be yet other readings. —Tamfang 08:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's something to do with the "Hard hats must be worn" part making the "at all times" unnecessary- X201 11:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It could be taken as forbidding hard hats to be worn anywhere else; there may be yet other readings. —Tamfang 08:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose hard hats must be worn (as in worn down/ not new)? I suspect double entendre is the right answer, although that is normally used when the alternative meaning is obscene. Cyta 11:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- This is the specific second meaning of "worn" I had in mind: damaged by wear or use; "a worn screw thread"; "worn elbows on a jacket". So the worker trying to enter the site with a brand-new hard hat is not admitted. --LambiamTalk 15:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose hard hats must be worn (as in worn down/ not new)? I suspect double entendre is the right answer, although that is normally used when the alternative meaning is obscene. Cyta 11:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yet another reading could be that the site must not be left unattended - at all times, including nights, weekends and holidays, there must be someone on the site wearing a hard hat. How did we ever manage to make sense of such an ambiguous phrase? 84.239.133.38 11:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's called common sense and context. Most sentences can probably have dual meanings (or more) if you look hard enough, but somehow we all manage to communicate. Cyta 13:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Another reading is that you must wear a hat which is hard, as opposed to a hardhat. Bowlers are permissible; berets are not. --TotoBaggins 14:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Not to beat a dead horse, but another possible meaning is that if someone has a hard hat on the premises, they must wear it. This is something like the meaning of "Dogs must be kept on a leash on this site at all times", which isn't generally seen as a requirement to have a dog, but rather as a requirement to keep the dog on a leash if you have one. Mike Dillon 02:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you thinking of Idiom? For instance "Bull's eye" has nothing to do with the eye of a bull. Bunthorne 02:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
translation from spanish
Can anybody please tell me what this means? "El Roi des Belges, modelo para el barco de vapor de El Corazón de las tinieblas, al breve mando de Conrad". It is a picture description that I need here. --Lamme Goedzak 07:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- "The King of the Belgians, model for the steamboat of The Heart of the darkness, under(?) the brief command of Conrad." No surprises there, I imagine. —Tamfang 08:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your fast reply! This means that Conrad has never been on this ship but on a similar one? --Lamme Goedzak 09:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I would say it means the Roi des Belges was briefly under the command of Conrad, and the steamboat in Conrad's novel Heart of Darkness was based on the real-life Roi des Belges. —Angr 09:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your fast reply! This means that Conrad has never been on this ship but on a similar one? --Lamme Goedzak 09:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, then my description is correct. Thanks! --Lamme Goedzak 14:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Conrad was on the Roi des Belges, as far as I know (though I don't know anything about who was in command). Tesseran 16:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- According to this [5] Conrad was second-in-command of the Roi des Belges, tho' the Captain fell ill, which would have given Conrad temporary command. DuncanHill 23:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
lack/a lack? response/responses?
should it be...
- due to a lack of response
- due to a lack of responses
- due to lack of response
- due to lack of responses
- I would say "due to the lack of response", or possibly "due to a lack of response". DuncanHill 09:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd probably say "because of" instead of "due to", but that may just be my idiolect. DuncanHill 09:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- They're all grammatical and all valid for some meaning; the question is which one you want. You need to confront two issues: the choice of "the" vs. "a" vs. no article, and the choice between "response" and "responses". (They operate independently here.) The first is perhaps trickier, but for the second one, "lack of response" is a general thing, focusing on "the response" as an undivided whole; "lack of responses" focuses on the individual responses that did not arrive. It also implies (to some degree) that the actual number of responses is important. If you mean "no one seemed very excited about the idea", use "response"; if you mean "no one even sent back a letter", use "responses". Tesseran 17:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- And you can also say: "due to the lack of responses", which (to me) sounds slightly more idiomatic than "due to (a) lack of responses". If you have somehow mentioned earlier that the amount of response was underwhelming, then in a later reference "the" should be used. For example: "For question 3 we only received three responses, two of which were illegible. Due to the lack of responses, the decision was referred to a later stage." --LambiamTalk 18:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Or "for lack of response(s)" —Tamfang 23:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- (Another good question for the English Language Reference Desk.) The Jade Knight 03:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Which has been superseded by ell.stackexchange.com and english.stackexchange.com —Tamfang (talk) 02:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Romantic poets
I wanted to gain some knowledge about the comparisons between the poets and poems of-P.B.Shelley,William Wordsworth and John Keats.Please help me.I need this information desperately. Thank you.````
- Have a look at our articles on Percy Shelley, Wordsworth and Keats and come back to us if you have any specific questions. By the way, this question would have been better asked on the humanities reference desk. --Richardrj talk email 11:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Elephant Onomatopoeia
Moved from the misc. desk. Capuchin 13:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
If a duck goes quack what sound does an elephant make? --58.168.222.252 12:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Elephants trumpet. DuncanHill 12:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think we have an onomatopoeic word for an elephant's trumpet, are there any in other languages? This would be best on the language desk. Capuchin 12:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any onomatopoeic words for the elephant in German or Czech either. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- "Hoom-praa"? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm very sad that I don't seem to be able to open that document :( Capuchin 12:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- "Hoom-praa"? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any onomatopoeic words for the elephant in German or Czech either. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- If they step on a pile of grapes, they may make a little whine.Gzuckier 15:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think "trumpet" is an onomatopea. It does sound like the sound a trumpet makes. – b_jonas 13:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'd imagine languages in countries where elephants are found have a sound for elephants, like we have sounds for ducks of cows. EditorInTheRye 14:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- A Google found this [6]. But I don't think it's in common usage (if used at all). Google doesn't find much else. And given that the urban dictionary also has [7]... Nil Einne 21:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
In the Spanish language the sound created by an elephant is called "barritar". Used in a simple phrase: "Los elefantes barritan"
Hindi language and ethnic groups
Does the Hindi language form an ethnic group? Heegoop, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Defining ethnicity is very tricky, particularly in northern India, where Hindi is mainly spoken, because of the existence, linguistically, of both a dialect continuum linking dialects very close to standard Hindi around Delhi with dialects close to other related languages, such as Bhojpuri, and because of Hindi's status as a lingua franca throughout northern India. In addition to these linguistic complications, Hindi speakers are divided along lines of caste, religion, and regional origin. Therefore, I don't think that the Hindi language alone can be seen as an ethnic marker, at least in northern India. Because ethnicity is relative, an argument might be made that Hindi is a kind of ethnic marker in southern India, because, there, native use of Hindi marks a speaker as a northern Indian, or ethnic outsider. Outside of India, the status of Hindi as an ethnic marker is somewhat murky and would depend on whether there are distinct communities of Indians organized along linguistic lines (in which case Hindi would be an ethnic marker), or whether hyphenated Indians form a single ethnic group regardless of their native language—e.g., perhaps, "Indo-Canadians"—(in which case Hindi would not be an ethnic marker). This almost certainly varies from place to place. But, in general, I do not think that Hindi speakers represent an ethnic group with a strong shared identity. Marco polo 15:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What ethnic groups in India speak Hindi? Heegoop, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that most Indians cannot be assigned to any clearly defined ethnic group. The exceptions would be the members of the so-called "scheduled tribes", or Adivasi peoples, which do form distinct ethnic groups. However, Adivasi peoples generally do not speak Hindi, except as a second language. The Indian government does not recognize the existence of ethnic groups in India apart from these scheduled tribes. While there are significant cultural differences among regions of India, there are few clear dividing lines between regions. Instead, there are subtle gradations. Often cultural differences between castes are more important than those between members of the same caste in neighboring regions. In a sense, non-tribal Indians who are not members of an alien ethnic minority (such as the Tibetans), whether they speak Hindi or some other language, form a single ethnic group like the Han Chinese of China, who also have wide regional cultural and linguistic variation. So, unfortunately, it is really impossible to answer your question. Marco polo 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Who speaks Hindi? (general question) Heegoop, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- It depends on how you define Hindi, which is really a variant of Hindustani. Speakers of standard Hindi, which is a high register of Hindustani with added Sanskrit vocabulary, tend to be educated northern Indians, particularly Hindus. (Educated Muslims in northern India may prefer Urdu, a closely related variant of Hindustani.) Native speakers of standard Hindi would tend to be educated, urban, Hindu northern Indians from the states of Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Chhattisgarh, and Jharkhand, and the territories of Chandigarh and Delhi. In addition, standard Hindi would be the native language of some educated people in Maharashtra and others in other parts of India whose families are originally from the north. Lower-reigster variants and dialects of Hindi or Hindustani are spoken natively among less educated and rural people in eastern Haryana, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, northern Rajasthan, and Madhya Pradesh. However, a dialect of Hindi spoken in eastern Uttar Pradesh would probably not be understood by the speaker of a dialect in eastern Haryana or northern Rajasthan. In Mumbai, many are native speakers of a lower-register Hindi variant known as Bambaiya Hindi. Marco polo 21:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- That last paragraph focused on native speakers of Hindi. I should add that many Indians, probably a majority, have some command of Hindi as a second language. This is especially true in those parts of India where the educated elite speak Hindi and/or where it is the main language of commerce (including Mumbai). Across the north, and to a lesser degree in the south, Indians tend to be able at least to comprehend some Hindi (i.e., have some listening ability), because Hindi is taught in school and because of the popularity of Bollywood films and TV programs. Marco polo 23:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Neighboring as a Gerund
I'm currently reviewing a paper for grammar, and have come across extensive use of "neighboring" as a gerund. For example, "much neighboring goes on among them." I would be inclined to dismiss this as wrong (the writer is not a native English speaker), if not for that it is actually quoted from other sources as well, especially William Dobriner. The topic deals with social aspects of suburban life. My question is, would that really be considered proper use, or would she be better served by using other constructs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranand (talk • contribs)
- To me, that is not an example of a gerund. A gerund is a verb used as a noun, for example "the bringing up of the child". In your example, I think "neighboring" is being used as the present participle of the verb "to neighbor". The more relevant question is, is there really a verb to neighbor? I don't think there is. --Richardrj talk email 15:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since "neighboring" is the subject of the verb goes on, it is certainly a gerund and not a participle. Just as certainly, it is unidiomatic to the point of being meaningless & should be rewritten for clarity. Wareh 15:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It actually is being used both as a gerund and as an adjective, but based on the premise that there are two uses of the verb "to neighbor." This does exist as a verb, as in "Germany neighbors France," but here is being used almost in the sense of being a neighbor. For example, she writes "the high degree of neighboring," meaning a great deal of activities among neighbors. Could this be an acceptable use of the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranand (talk • contribs)
- In the quotation you provided, it is not being used as an adjective. She should write, "As neighbors, they are involved in many interactions," or some such. "The high degree of neighboring" is not an improvement; nothing you say suggests it is correct for the intended meaning. Wareh 16:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Wareh that in the quoted passage, "neighboring" is a gerund. I also agree that this gerund is nonstandard English and without a clear meaning. I'm not sure of the intended meaning, but perhaps a better way to state it would be "They engage in much neighborly behavior" or, better still, "They have a strong relationship as neighbors". Marco polo 16:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar with that usage of the word, but it does find some hits: [8], [9], [10], [11]. It seems to be a neologism, and it may also be a technical term in sociology. In any case, "much neighboring goes on among them" is an awkward construction. You could preserve the word "neighboring" and reword to "they are strongly engaged in neighboring," or to use a different phrase, "they frequently participate in neighborly activities." --Reuben 16:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- OED gives us 'Neighbouring | neighboring':
2. Chiefly Brit. regional. The activity of visiting one's neighbours, neighbourly association; spec. (Sc. and Irish English (north.)) cooperation in farm work.
[12] Ithink the 'chiefly Sociol.' is what you're looking at. — Gareth Hughes 17:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)3. Relations between neighbours in a community; esp. (chiefly Sociol.) when those relations are based on (mutual) help and support.
- OED gives us 'Neighbouring | neighboring':
- Whether or not you can point to a supreme authority to prove that it is unidiomatic English, it's still an awkward sentence. I've reworded a lot of awkward sentences, and almost every one of them was grammatically valid -- a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion in writing. Tesseran 17:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- That reminds me of the question: What do you call someone whose idiom differs from your idiom? It looks like 'neighbouring', used in this way, is a piece of sociological jargon, which makes it idiomatic for sociologists. As a non-sociologist, I think it's ugly and unnecessary, but OED cites a handful of clever-looking sociologists using it. — Gareth Hughes 17:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- The issue is not the gerund but the use of to neighbor as a verb. No verb, no gerund. If you accept the verb, then you get the gerund thrown in for free. It is a standard dictionary meaning: "to associate with or as if with one's neighbors; be neighborly or friendly (often fol. by with)".[13] --LambiamTalk 18:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
toward vs towards
which is correct?
- Both are correct — they are valid English words. The difference between them was given here recently — Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 June 25#Toward vs towards. — Gareth Hughes 16:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
UniPers transliteration
Can anyone give me the UniPers transliteration of دانشگاه, 'university'? Would 'dânšagâh' be far off? — Gareth Hughes 17:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Apparently,
you can leave off the final hit's "dâneshgâ". —Angr 20:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)- That's not the only difference. --LambiamTalk 20:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you. I wasn't aware that Wiktionary had got that good! — Gareth Hughes 20:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I was actually only expecting to find the Persian word and its transliteration at wikt:university; I was quite surprised to see it was even a blue link! —Angr 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you. I wasn't aware that Wiktionary had got that good! — Gareth Hughes 20:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- That's not the only difference. --LambiamTalk 20:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
STATUS POST
Status post or status-post ?
- I have no idea what you're talking about, but my natural loathing of unnecessary hyphens says, "status post". —Angr 20:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- In medical jargon, as in "patient is status post alimentation" (= has eaten), no hyphen is customary. But while I'm up, I may as well point out that this is a barbarism, as status is a noun used here as a predicate adjective; (in) statu post would be better Latin. —Tamfang 23:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
A singular plural question
In an article, it refers to "...portraits of both Kings Charles..." Is this correct? Clarityfiend 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It seems like a good, concise way of saying "...portraits of both King Charles I and King Charles II. Sort of like referring to Emily, Anne, and Charlotte as "the Misses Brontë". —Angr 20:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It just sounds so goofy to me (goofé for the French among us). Clarityfiend 22:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- In everyday informal usage, phrases can inflect like single words (as seen in the movie title Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure), and "Both King Charleses" is what people would say. In formal writing I'd avoid the expression altogether. "Both Kings Charles" can't be right. --Anonymous, July 9, 2007, 22:40 (UTC).
- Maybe the acceptability depends on where you're from. Here we find: "both Queens Elizabeth" – not the Queens Elizabeth you may think, but Elizabeth Woodville and Elizabeth of York). I'm not sure I'd say "both Kings Charles" (although I would say, e.g, "they are the numbers one in their respective fields"), but I'm quite sure I'd never say "both King Charleses". --LambiamTalk 00:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- In everyday informal usage, phrases can inflect like single words (as seen in the movie title Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure), and "Both King Charleses" is what people would say. In formal writing I'd avoid the expression altogether. "Both Kings Charles" can't be right. --Anonymous, July 9, 2007, 22:40 (UTC).
- It just sounds so goofy to me (goofé for the French among us). Clarityfiend 22:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Why can't it be right? It's short for "both Kings who were named Charles". —Tamfang 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It sounds right to me - tho' I suspect it may be a little old-fashioned. DuncanHill 00:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Lambiam, "the numbers one in their respective fields" sounds hypercorrect to me. I take the expression "number one" to be a compound noun. It's not the number-s that there are more than one of, but the number one-s. I'd pluralise it as "number ones". -- JackofOz 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- About the Kings Charles - I'd say it's correct in speech, but when written, the word "Kings" should be in lower case. No different from writing "Both presidents Bush were <whatever>". -- JackofOz 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that it's no different: that's equally wrong, in my opinion. --Anon, July 10, 03:23 (UTC).
- "The numbers one" goes against all my instincts, for spoken as well as written English. There is no problem with "the numbers two and three are prime", but this situation is different. If "Bill's the number one when it comes to optics", it is false to say that "Bill is a number". The phrase is short for "number one scientist", or something like that (and "Bill is a scientist" is true). Contrast this with "RFK is the Attorney General" (he was an attorney), "John is a Sergeant Major" (John is a sergeant), "Mary is my mother-in-law" (Mary is a mother). [While some of these may not be exactly true, this is an error of specification rather than an error of type.] Tesseran 05:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- About the Kings Charles - I'd say it's correct in speech, but when written, the word "Kings" should be in lower case. No different from writing "Both presidents Bush were <whatever>". -- JackofOz 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- You might try this question over at the English Language Reference Desk and see what response you get there. The Jade Knight 03:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- The first paragraph of Sergeant Major has an example of a similar construction. When referring to more than one soldier, each ranked Sergeant Major, the correct term is "Sergeants Major." If we accept title-and-name as a compound construction then the most significant word takes the plural form. "Kings Charles" is correct. 152.16.59.190 06:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's the same reason that the plural of "cupful" is "cupsful". -GTBacchus(talk) 06:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Also "attorneys general", if there's more than one in the room, and "passersby", just to name two more of many. +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Concise OED, 6th ed (1976)/11th impression (1980): Edwardian: Of the time of any of the Kings Edward. (Capitalisation as printed.) But the 3rd edition of the Shorter Oxford avoids this construction, likewise for Georgian and Elizabethan. The 3rd ed. was 1944, reprinted with corrections up to my edition, 1972, so they could have added in Elizabeth II for the entry on Elizabethan if they'd wanted to, and referred to the "Queens Elizabeth", but they only mention EI. I'd say the acceptability of the form, "Kings Edward", must have increased as standards relaxed, but my Concise OED is quite picky, and strikes me as still authoritative, so the pluralisation as given by the OP is presumably OK. Nice question. 203.221.127.6 21:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in generating simple stories or plots by using something like a narrative grammar, preferably embodied in some software. Does anyone know where I can find out implementations of this kind of thing please?
Secondly, I've been watching several Laurel and Hardy short films. I note that they often have common narrative elements, for example escalation, or repetition. Has anyone ever studied them from a narrative grammar point of view please? Thanks 80.2.207.15 21:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
July 10
Lead Factory Worker
Is a person who works in a lead factory called a leader, and if so how would you pronounce it?
- Why, pronounce it as in leady, of course.--K.C. Tang 03:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think that word is used, but it would be pronounced [ˈlɛd.ɚ] or [ˈlɛd.ə] if it were used. Mike Dillon 03:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Pronunciation would naturally depend on the dialect of the speaker. Generally, lead workers are not called "leaders". If they were called "leaders", it would likely be pronounced much like "ledders" (another non-word). The Jade Knight 03:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is a verb to lead (pronounced [lɛd]), with meanings: (1) to cover with lead, (2) to insert leads between [the text lines], or (3) to fix [glass] with lead cames. Meaning (2) gives rise to the noun leading ([ˈlɛdɪŋ]). A noun leader, in the meaning of someone whose occupation or main activity is to perform one of these activities, would be a regular word formation in English. Hoever, it appears not to be in common use, and is not recorded in several dictionaries. I would not be surprised, though, if it is found in the OED. --LambiamTalk 11:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- A version of "leader" related to lead actually does occur in the OED. It's listed as obsolute archaic, and the only entry for it is dated to 1440. It means "a plumber" (I'm guessing it's related to plumbers working with lead piping). The Jade Knight 02:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Dead Sea
Why is the Dead Sea called the Dead Sea? Is there something "deadly" about salinity? Or is it because Sodom and Gomorrah had seaside property, and were righteously smoten by the hand of the LORD? Obviously, doing a good job of smiting requires dealing a heavy hand of Death. Is there some linguamythic connection between salt and death? Thanks in advance. 208.114.153.254 04:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- According to Dead Sea#Flora and fauna, "the sea is called 'dead' because its high salinity means no fish or macroscopic aquatic organisms can live in it". (I'm about to reword that, though, since it sounds like fish aren't macroscopic aquatic organisms.) —Angr 05:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This, That, These, Those.
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was reading [14] and was wondering concerning the following example, that is often used but usually with a different object:
Who owns that house? (distant)
Is this John's house? (near)
Isn't this open to individual interpretation ? For example, a person could find that a house is distant while another would find that it isn't. --Matt714 06:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is, yes, but I think in practice it'd be quite clear. If you're about to enter John's house, for example, you'd always say "this". If you're right up next to it, but are walking past it, you could probably use either "this" or "that", it doesn't much matter. --Richardrj talk email 07:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Matt, since your first language is French, perhaps you could explain to us the difference between ceci and cela; and in doing so you may reach a greater understanding of this and that. —Tamfang 18:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Can the word "being" may be dropped from a title of a picture
I came across a picture with a title: "The Mars Climate Orbiter is prepared for its mission. ..." The picture really shows that the Orbiter is under preparation. So I feel that the title should have been: The Mars Climate Orbiter is being prepared for its mission. ...Is there a convention that the word "being" can be dropped from a title? Can anyone point me a web-page where I can learn about the grammar of titles?
Thank you very much. 196.12.53.9 06:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Vineet Chaitanya
- The caption is fine in English without the word 'being'. With the word 'being' included, it reads more like a part of a story. Without the 'being', it refers directly to the picture, i.e. this is what the picture shows. It's hard to explain, as you can tell! --Richardrj talk email 07:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd tend to make the caption "The [object] being prepared for its mission", dropping the verb "is" altogether. Less wordy. +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think the problem with both alternatives is that they are in the passive voice, which should be avoided as far as possible. If the picture shows technicians working on the orbiter, for example, I would make the caption "Technicians prepare [or preparing] the Orbiter for its mission". --Richardrj talk email 07:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I'd tend to make the caption "The [object] being prepared for its mission", dropping the verb "is" altogether. Less wordy. +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Passive voice is an important part of English (and other languages!). Sometimes it is overused, but here it is quite clear: using the passive voice makes the orbiter the topic of the sentence. The question at hand, though, is not about voice but about aspect: specifically the progressive aspect. For example (with verb phrase in bold):
- 'The Mars Climate Orbiter is [infl. form of 'be'] prepared [past participle] for its mission'
- Passive voice → inflected form of 'be' + past participle
- 'The Mars Climate Orbiter is [infl. form of 'be'] being [present participle of 'be'] prepared [past participle] for its mission'
- Passive voice with progressive aspect → inflected form of 'be' + 'being' + past participle
- 'The Mars Climate Orbiter is [infl. form of 'be'] prepared [past participle] for its mission'
- In English, the progressive aspect adds immediacy to the sentence — it's happening right now. Its use is quite common in speech (compare 'I play football' with 'I am playing football'), but is not as necessary in headings and captions because the body text or picture, respectively, fill out the details. — Gareth Hughes 10:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Passive voice is an important part of English (and other languages!). Sometimes it is overused, but here it is quite clear: using the passive voice makes the orbiter the topic of the sentence. The question at hand, though, is not about voice but about aspect: specifically the progressive aspect. For example (with verb phrase in bold):
- The simple (non-progressive) present tense in English usually has some timeless sense. In a photo caption, it describes what is going on in the moment of the photograph, which is frozen out of the real time-stream. We also use the simple present tense for habitual actions ("I work barefoot") and for the scheduled future ("my flight arrives at 7:41"). —Tamfang 18:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
'Oftentimes'
Is this word only an Americanism, in a sentence such as "Oftentimes, I would go jogging in the park"? I've never heard spoken it in British English, where we would simply use 'often'. But I frequently hear 'oftentimes' being used by Americans. --Richardrj talk email 10:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I too have never heard it used in British English, tho' Chambers Dictionary (1983 ed.) does list it without comment. DuncanHill 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Chambers can be a bit old fashioned, so it somewhat explains the opening remark of the entry in OED: 'Now chiefly N. Amer.; otherwise arch. or literary'. — Gareth Hughes 11:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- That's a bit harsh on Chambers - it's always been my favourite dictionary, and with its famous humorous definitions it's also one of the least conventional. The previous poster does point out that he was quoting from the 1983 edition, so the word may have been less archaic then than it was in 2004, when the OED definition you cite was drafted. --Richardrj talk email 11:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Chambers can be a bit old fashioned, so it somewhat explains the opening remark of the entry in OED: 'Now chiefly N. Amer.; otherwise arch. or literary'. — Gareth Hughes 11:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I can't think of having heard it in the US, either. Maybe among old people… The Jade Knight 11:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I quite like Chambers too, but it is fond of words so archaic that you could never get away with it. The OED definition is 2004, but I don't know how long that definition has been up. Unfortunately, it is difficult to back up the North American claim from OED's quotations. I, a Brit, have used the word before, but this maybe because I'm archaic with literary pretensions. — Gareth Hughes 12:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've often heard it from Americans, and it always makes me cringe. I've never thought of it as "archaic" and "literary", though; I think of it a solecism and it requires great self-control on my part to refrain from slapping the person who said it. (Yes, I'm an anti-prescriptivist, can't you tell?) —Angr 14:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I quite like Chambers too, but it is fond of words so archaic that you could never get away with it. The OED definition is 2004, but I don't know how long that definition has been up. Unfortunately, it is difficult to back up the North American claim from OED's quotations. I, a Brit, have used the word before, but this maybe because I'm archaic with literary pretensions. — Gareth Hughes 12:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm American and I do occasionally hear it. I would not say it's a standard usage - it's used more by less-educated speakers, I'd guess. Funnyhat 22:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Al Jamia al Masjid
What does this mean? For reference, it was written on the front of a Mosque near where I grew up in the US. Sorry if I didn't spell it right, but that is what I remember it as.
Thanks, Czmtzc 16:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's a public mosque. مسجد (masjid) is the usual Arabic word used for a mosque, whereas جامع (jāmi`) can also refer to a mosque it usually represents a larger, more collective building. The two words are put together, usually as مسجد جامع (masjid jāmi`) for a main, central mosque used for جمعة (jum`ah), Friday prayer. — Gareth Hughes 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- OK great. That would explain why they built a much larger building just down the street a couple of years ago. Czmtzc 16:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've seen the order مسجد جامع (masjid jāmi`) a fair bit, but, to get closer to your original statement, جامعة المسجد (jāmi`at al-masjid) would mean 'the congregation/community of the mosque'. — Gareth Hughes 17:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the arabic script you provided, it looks like the words are reading right to left, correct? So what would it mean if it was al Jamia above al Masjid? In other words does Arabic read right to left / bottom to top? Czmtzc 19:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Arabic reads right to left, top to bottom. —Angr 19:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- It looks, then, like they are not meant to be read a single phrase, but as separate words for 'mosque'. Al-Jamia (الجامعة al-jāmi`ah) means 'the congregation/community', and al-Masjid (المسجد) means 'the mosque' (usually in the sense of a simple, private mosque). As I said before, the usual wording would be al-Masjid al-Jami (المسجد الجامع al-masjidu 'l-jāmi`) for a grand mosque for Friday prayer. — Gareth Hughes 19:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Arabic reads right to left, top to bottom. —Angr 19:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the arabic script you provided, it looks like the words are reading right to left, correct? So what would it mean if it was al Jamia above al Masjid? In other words does Arabic read right to left / bottom to top? Czmtzc 19:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- To add, there are dialectal differences. In Egyptian Arabic, جامع is the common word for mosque and is pronounced [gamɛʕ]. — Zerida 01:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Looking for original Russian lyrics of Yugoslavia song by Lena Katina (Tatu)
Hello,
I hope this doesn't belong in "entertainment". Lena Katina (from Tatu) made a song (in Russian) about Yugoslavia. You can listen to it here: [15] I am looking for the original Russian lyrics (in the Cyrillic alphabet). That would be an interesting way to test my knowledge of the Cyrillic alpabet. But since my Russian is really really bad, I can't find my way (on my own) on the internet in Russian. So can anyone help me? Thank you very very much,Evilbu 17:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I just posted a link to the lyrics, but I realized soon after that it is on some kind of extreme right-wing site, so I removed the link. If you want to google for the words try Лена Катина Югославия Над вечерним and you will probably find them. --Cam 18:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you. My experience with Russian sites is that being careful is wise. If anyone has a safe link, he will still be very welcome.Evilbu 20:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Bulgarian lyrics, translations
Is there any source (online or otherwise) for the Bulgarian lyrics (and translations) of the songs made famous on the record Le Mystère des Voix Bulgares[16]? Wareh 19:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know how reliable this is, but I found: this translation of four songs. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for ferreting that out! Wareh 14:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Dutch, German, and Latin, O my!
I've recently finished reading a book about a boy living in Europe during World War II and his life afterwards (It's called The Assault by Harry Mulisch, and it's very good. I recommend it). There are periodical uses of Dutch and German which I have almost no idea what they mean. There is also for some reason some Latin phrases. I would liek to know what they mean so I can have a bette understanding of the story all around. I'm not completely certain that al lthese phraes are in only these three languages and I'm also nto certain that the languages I sorted them into are correct.
- German
- Aufmachen!..........................open up!
- Vorzeigen.............................To produce or show (possibly a command: Let see!)
- Schnell..................................Fast! or Quick!
- Schweigensie........................Schweigen =
silenceto be quiet (i.e. not talk), sie = you, so"Shut up!""Be quiet!" - Ach so....................................Aha or Okay [now I understand] / I see...
- Das genugt............................That will do
- Abführen...............................
Abführung = paymentabführen = to haul s.o. (e.g. a prisoner) off; a good translation would be "Take him away!" - Grüne Polizei........................ see Grüne Polizei
- Scheisse.................................Shit!
- Ja überhaupt.........................
ja = yes, hauptmann = captain, so "Yes, over-captain" (or überhaupt = completely or totally)at all (used in a negative context, so then "not at all") - Ortskommandantur..............Local Military Administration
- Bisschen Ruck-Zuck..............A bit of a heave-ho
- Wehrmacht............................Wehrmacht = armed forces
- Schmaltz...............................Schmaltz rendered goose or chicken fat used as a spread
- Schmeckt..............................
taste (of food)(It) tastes (well) / Yummy - Herr Fliegergeneral...............Air Marshall
- Verflucintnochmal (??)...this should probably be "verflucht noch mal"="for christ's sake" (or something like that)
- Scheissegal...........................It's all the same to me (I don't give a shit which one.)
- Wehrmachtheim Erika............wehrmacht = armed forces, heim = home
- Unerhört....................................Unheard of, outrageous, shocking
- Dutch
- Jammertal.................................. (German) "Vale of tears"
- Lazarett.....................................(German) sick bay, hospital
- Rijksmuseum.............................Rijksmuseum = national museum
- Concertgebouw..........................Concertgebouw
- Latin
- Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi!.....read: Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
- Ethica: More Geometrico Demonstrata. Benedicta de Sopinoza.....(Ethica Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata is the title of a book by Baruch Spinoza) – and Ethica More Geometrico Demonstrata is an alternative version of the title
- De gustibus non est disputandum..............................................."there is no dispute about tastes"
Thank you very much for your help. schyler 19:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- To take the Latin ones in order: See Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, Ethics (book) (see second paragraph), List of Latin phrases (A–E) (under De gustibus). Wareh 20:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Only "Rijksmuseum" (="state museum") and "Concertgebouw" (="Concert Building") are Dutch words. "Jammertal" and "Lazarett" are German. (Dutch words never have a double consonant at the end, or they'd have to be"imported words")Evilbu 20:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I added some more stuff.Evilbu 21:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I added a couple German translations. Marco polo 21:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think a better translation of the last Latin phrase would be "there is no arguing about taste" or, more colloquially, "to each his own". Marco polo 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Marco, yes that sounds a lot better! DuncanHill 21:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- More literally/precisely, Tastes are not to be debated. —Tamfang 18:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- And I've corrected a few of the German translations. BTW a good place for German/English translations is LEO. --Dapeteばか 08:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- And Leo is where I got some of the translations which have subsequently been changed! DuncanHill 08:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think a better translation of the last Latin phrase would be "there is no arguing about taste" or, more colloquially, "to each his own". Marco polo 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I added a couple German translations. Marco polo 21:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Note on schmaltz above: In Jewish cuisine, schmaltz is poultry fat, but when gentile Germans talk about Schmalz (spelled without the t), they're more likely referring to lard (which Jews traditionally don't eat since it comes from pigs). The meaning "excessively sentimental or florid music or art or maudlin sentimentality" is also present in German, so it may mean that in the context where you read it. —Angr 13:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Three more minor points:
- It should be das genügt (not das genugt)
- It should be Schweigen Sie! (the initial S in honorofic Sie is captialized.)
- To me, ein bisschen ruck zuck (I'd spell it in minuscules and without a hyphen. Duden recommends "ruck, zuck!") means something along the lines of (let's do it) "quickly, in a jiffy, with military speed". ---Sluzzelin talk 14:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Possessive Form
A question above referred to the film Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures. Which prompts my question. What indeed is the proper form when one is indicating multiple possessive, as in the Bill and Ted example. Is it Bill and Ted's ... Bill's and Ted's ... or either is correct? Extending that to three people: This is Tom, Dick, and Harry's hometown. OR This is Tom's, Dick's, and Harry's hometown. OR Either is correct? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC))
- To stay with the Bills and Billys, not only do we have Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventures, but also Bill and Peter's Bogus Journey and Billy & Mandy's Big Boogey Adventure. This is quite idiomatic. If you write Bill's and Al's Memorable Adventures in Washington, you suggest that each had, separately, their own memorable adventure. In Bill and Al's Memorable Adventures they had their adventures together. And here is, for you, all in rhyme, Tom, Dick and Harry's Moon Adventure. --LambiamTalk 14:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- We have a rather messy article on the Saxon genitive (a rather outdated name), and a better one at apostrophe. In truth, either is correct, but the two ways of forming the possessive make subtle changes in meaning. The possessive clitic can be added to the end of a noun phrase, as in "someone else's problem", where someone else is a two-word noun phrase taking the possessive (i.e. "the problem of someone else"). Thus, it is equally possible to add a single possessive clitic to a noun phrase that is two or more possible possessors in conjunction. I suppose you could think of "Bill and Ted's excellent adventures" as meaning "the excellent adventures of Bill and Ted", and "Bill's and Ted's excellent adventures" as "the excellent adventures of Bill and of Ted" — separating the noun phrase makes the excellent adventures belong to each separately. Because using just a single clitic is simpler, it is more idiomatic not to separate the noun phrase. Thus, where one says "This is Tom's, Dick's and Harry's hometown", one is emphasizing the statement that all three, individually, come from that place. — Gareth Hughes 14:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- My father told me once that a recent groom thanked him for playing the organ "at Lisa and I's wedding". —Angr 21:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where is the groom from if I may ask? — Zerida 22:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- He got married in Texas. I don't know if that's where he grew up. —Angr 07:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where is the groom from if I may ask? — Zerida 22:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- My father told me once that a recent groom thanked him for playing the organ "at Lisa and I's wedding". —Angr 21:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- We have a rather messy article on the Saxon genitive (a rather outdated name), and a better one at apostrophe. In truth, either is correct, but the two ways of forming the possessive make subtle changes in meaning. The possessive clitic can be added to the end of a noun phrase, as in "someone else's problem", where someone else is a two-word noun phrase taking the possessive (i.e. "the problem of someone else"). Thus, it is equally possible to add a single possessive clitic to a noun phrase that is two or more possible possessors in conjunction. I suppose you could think of "Bill and Ted's excellent adventures" as meaning "the excellent adventures of Bill and Ted", and "Bill's and Ted's excellent adventures" as "the excellent adventures of Bill and of Ted" — separating the noun phrase makes the excellent adventures belong to each separately. Because using just a single clitic is simpler, it is more idiomatic not to separate the noun phrase. Thus, where one says "This is Tom's, Dick's and Harry's hometown", one is emphasizing the statement that all three, individually, come from that place. — Gareth Hughes 14:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Need a Dutch reader
Is there any evidence from [17] that the content may be redistributed? A few people are trying to add a YouTube link (with English subtitles) to an article, which I've been removing as an external copyvio per policy. Decided to check myself if there's any evidence they may be redistributed since I'm doubtful the people adding it are going to Nil Einne 21:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is a page on the site, referred to from every other page, stating in Dutch: Copyright Deze website inclusief de gepubliceerde informatie valt onder het auteurs-, naburig en databankenrecht van Omroepvereniging VARA. Verveelvoudiging en/of openbaarmaking, anders dan voor eigen niet-commercieel gebruik overeenkomstig onze gebruiksvoorwaarden, zijn zonder de voorafgaande schriftelijke toestemming van Omroepvereniging VARA niet toegestaan.(© Omroepvereniging VARA, 2004).[18] I don't understand all of this, but I think this is saying something along the lines of: "This website including the published information is copyright VARA Broadcasting Association. Copying except for private non-commercial use ... is not permitted". In any case, with or without such a statement, the copyright of the material is by default the maker's; any users should show that they are using it with permission, instead of us having to show no such permission exists. I could imagine, though, a possible fair-use argument. --LambiamTalk 14:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- My Dutch is minimal, but here is a full translation of the text above:
- "Copyright This website, including the published information, falls under the author, neighbor [?], and data bank rights of the broadcast association VARA. Copying and/or publishing [of this material], other than for one's own noncommercial use in agreement with our use restrictions, are not permitted without the prior written agreement of the broadcast association VARA."
- I think that it would expose Wikipedia to legal risk to post any of this information without written permission from VARA. Marco polo 16:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- "Author's rights and neighboring rights" is a common way of saying "Copyright and other rights", IE . " "Intellectual property rights" ". Sortof like saying "Copyright (Copyr.) (C) (c) © [...] All rights reserved, including those of translation, especially into the Scandinavian languages, according to Act of Congress as the Act directs 15:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)" (Covering all possible bases). 68.39.174.238 15:08, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help. BTW, as it turns out, whatever their policies on redistribution the youtube links appear to be okay as VARA/Kassa themselves link to them [19] Nil Einne 22:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A RIDDLE
I read a riddle which goes something like
"I am despised by knave and liar. After me the wise inquires. I rise above all death and fire. What am I?"
I am wondering if this riddle has an answer. If it does, then I wonder what.
Thank you if you can help me out with this.
The Soul? DuncanHill 21:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmm.. a soul. but why will a soul be despised by a knave a liar?
- Did you try Googling? I did ([20]) and got an answer, probably in less time then it took you to write out the question... Nil Einne 22:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I would say the truth. slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 22:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't actually look at Nil Einne's response! slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 10:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah yeah, we all believe you. :) JackofOz 13:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but what do I have in my pocket? Donald Hosek 16:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- My Preciousssssssssssssssss! DuncanHill 20:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I believe Slumglum, because I had it after the first two lines. The third line threw me off.-Czmtzc 17:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but what do I have in my pocket? Donald Hosek 16:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah yeah, we all believe you. :) JackofOz 13:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't actually look at Nil Einne's response! slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 10:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I would say the truth. slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 22:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
July 11
Mystery Sanskrit omission mark
In this Sanskrit grammar I'm transcribing, it mentions the use of a circle along the level of the text to indicate an omission. I can't find any information about this though and it doesn't seem to be in Unicode's definition of devanagari. Anyone have any idea what it is? Source, it's item c on this page 76.106.103.106 01:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Sanskrit abbreviation sign (॰) is 0970 in Unicode Devanagari (see here). I couldn't find any examples in these Unicode Skt. texts, but that's understandable (text editions don't abbreviate). Wareh 02:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- (I don't see an item c – or any other item – on that page.) Could this "omission glyph" have been the inspiration for using a circle as the zero glyph? --LambiamTalk 07:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Or vice versa? (I have, by the way, seen the zero used for omission.) —Tamfang 07:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt it; the Devanagari numeral ० (U+0966) for "zero" is the more likely source. I don't see any item c on that page either, but I have a copy of Whitney, and it's described under item c on page 9 of that work:
- Or vice versa? (I have, by the way, seen the zero used for omission.) —Tamfang 07:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
| “ | c. The sign ॰ is used in place of something that is omitted, and to be understood from the connection: thus, वीरसेनसुतस् ॰तम् ॰तेन vīrasenasutas -tam -tena. | ” |
- So it looks like it's more likely to be used in dictionaries and grammars and the like than in literature. —Angr 07:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since the Indian numerals were transmitted in the Devanagari form to the Arabic culture (at least, according to this source), I assumed that the Devanagari circle used for the digit for 0 morphed into the "Arabic" 0 used in the West. My question was actually, therefore, "could the Sanskrit omission glyph have been the inspiration for the Devanagari digit?". Unfortunately, our article on the glyphs used with the Hindu-Arabic numeral system and the largely overlapping section entitled Evolution of symbols in the article Arabic numerals give some lineages but not the tree, and shape-wise only a few identifiable data points for 0. --LambiamTalk 13:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Accessibility of public ___domain Google Books
Strange that the Google Books link doesn't work for Lambiam and Angr (worked fine for me). It's a shame if such a valuable resource, which provides Whitney's Skt. Grammar to the world, can't be reliably linked to. Since the symbol stands in lieu of something and not nothing, I don't see the attraction of a connection to the zero symbol, but I'm sure I'm just being dense. Wareh 14:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've tried four different browsers and I always get the same thing: a page providing brief bibliographical information to Whitney's grammar in the top left, ads for buying the book in the top right, and then references to other books on the rest of the page. At this address I get a limited preview of the book, but excluding the page relevant for this discussion. Rather annoying, considering the book is in the public ___domain now. I don't suppose there's any chance it's up at Wikisource, but maybe someone else has uploaded scans of the book. —Angr 15:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I can see the sign in a "snippet view" of the 1867 edition,[21] but the search for "sanskrit whitney 1913" warns me at the link: "No preview available". I've noticed before that I didn't get previews where others apparently did. I can only imagine this is IP based, but find no information on IP-based selectivity on the Google books site. --LambiamTalk 18:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- That I can see too. Geez, and people accuse us of copyright paranoia; the book is public ___domain, for crying out loud! —Angr 18:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it seems to be copyright paranoia plus foreign jurisdiction paranoia; the availability of full view titles seems to be more restricted for users not accessing from the USA. Here I found:
The non-public-___domain works that display for me as "limited preview" may require sign-in with a Google account. I should add that, even accessing from the USA, too many titles that are in fact public ___domain are restricted—old periodicals, titles that have been reprinted, etc. Too much caution! In any case, Whitney's Sanskrit Grammar is also provided by archive.org. Wareh 18:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)As far as I understand, visitors from the U.S.A. can view all books published in the U.S.A. before 1923 in their entirety. In other countries, where copyright is determined by the length of time since the death of the author, Google is applying a much more stringent criterion based on the date of publication. For example, for visitors in the U.K. only works published before 1865 are available. To complicate matters further, Google also appears to be restricting all access to books published outside the U.S.A. later than 1908. Of course, the great majority of books published between 1865 and 1923 are legally out of copyright in the U.K. and most other countries. I have tried to clarify Google's policy on future access to these books, without success.
- Well, I'm outside the United States. Is it safe to assume Wareh is in the U.S. and Lambiam is also outside the U.S.? We might have our answer... —Angr 19:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the archive.org link; they even have it as a TXT file, which will make generating a mediawiki file for WikiSource much easier. —Angr 19:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Amusingly, I actually started working on putting Whitney's Grammar on wikisource a bit ago (mostly because I noticed that he does a great deal of intertextual reference, which would be ideal for wikisource). I got somewhat stalled out but now I'm playing around with it again, which is why I asked about the symbol in the first place. Assistance would of course be welcome! 76.106.103.106 06:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC) (edited to correct link 76.106.103.106 06:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC))
- Oh, that's great! Are you doing the first edition or the second? Using the TXT file at archive.org will greatly reduce the amount of typing you have to do, but it is only the first edition. —Angr 07:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- And note that (when a given PD title is accessible to a given reader!) Google Books has recently introduced the option of viewing the plaintext of the scan. Haven't checked to see whether archive.org or Google wins for less corrupt OCR scan. Wareh 14:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, that's great! Are you doing the first edition or the second? Using the TXT file at archive.org will greatly reduce the amount of typing you have to do, but it is only the first edition. —Angr 07:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Amusingly, I actually started working on putting Whitney's Grammar on wikisource a bit ago (mostly because I noticed that he does a great deal of intertextual reference, which would be ideal for wikisource). I got somewhat stalled out but now I'm playing around with it again, which is why I asked about the symbol in the first place. Assistance would of course be welcome! 76.106.103.106 06:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC) (edited to correct link 76.106.103.106 06:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC))
- Yes, it seems to be copyright paranoia plus foreign jurisdiction paranoia; the availability of full view titles seems to be more restricted for users not accessing from the USA. Here I found:
- That I can see too. Geez, and people accuse us of copyright paranoia; the book is public ___domain, for crying out loud! —Angr 18:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I can see the sign in a "snippet view" of the 1867 edition,[21] but the search for "sanskrit whitney 1913" warns me at the link: "No preview available". I've noticed before that I didn't get previews where others apparently did. I can only imagine this is IP based, but find no information on IP-based selectivity on the Google books site. --LambiamTalk 18:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Zulu name for South Africa?
What's the Zulu name for the country South Africa? It seems to be "IRiphabliki yaseNingizimu Afrika", but that seems to be the "long form". What is the "short form" for the country name, if there is one, as it would be used in everyday casual conversation.--Sonjaaa 09:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- This from the Wikipedia article on Zulu language - "South Africa - iNingizimu Afrika / uMzansi Afrika" DuncanHill 09:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- What about iSotafilika ?--Sonjaaa 10:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- That looks like a transliteration of "South Africa": "i" = class prefix, "Sot" = "South", "afilika" = "Africa". Many languages transliterate "r" as "l" in some or all cases and the Zulu language article doesn't show "r" as a native sound. Mike Dillon 15:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Azania? Corvus cornix 20:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- This is not politically correct. Our ruling party ANC would get very upset and call you an imperialist pig if you used that term. Even our anthem talks about Africa (nKosi Sikelele Afrika) (God bless Africa) rather than South Africa. Southern Africa was a group of tribal areas before the Europeans colonized. A lot of colonial names are also changing, such as Durban to Tekwini and possibly Port Elizabeth to Nelson Mandela Bay! Sandman30s 11:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Did you read that article? I don't think Pliny the Elder spoke much Zulu. —Angr 20:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Zulus never take on any loan words? Corvus cornix 21:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sure they do; for example, iSotafilika above! :-) —Angr 21:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. :) Corvus cornix 16:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sure they do; for example, iSotafilika above! :-) —Angr 21:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Zulus never take on any loan words? Corvus cornix 21:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Number of languages
hi, in europe, before the romans, there were presumably many hundreds of languages (as people didnt travel very far). Then the romans came along and everyone spoke latin, which in turn seperated into french, spanish etc.. SO my question in this, now that we travel more, its clear that big langauges (english, spanish) are killing smaller but will they, in turn "do a latin" and seperate out into more languages, or will our new lust for travel mean that linguistic diversity remains a thing of the past? - will we one day all speak the same? (i know wikipedia cant predict the future, but whats seems likely) thanks130.88.205.43 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- well, the current trend seems to be more languages dying out than 'appearing'. English has arguably "done something of a Latin" with various creole languages popping up, though the core has not split. It seems that international communication (whether by travel, telephony, media etc.) does put the brakes on divergence of different varieties like UK, US and Australia. I think it was Sapir that said there are two different social forces involved in language change: parochialism and whatever the opposite is! (it results in dialect levelling, whatever he called it!). So with increasing contact between different populations, my prediction is for a decreasing number of languages, though I think parochialism will stop us from all wanting to speak the same. If "civilisation" collapses, English (and other languages) will probably eventually "do a Latin". Drmaik 11:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to add that French is indeed a Romance language, and thus a clone of the Latin language, but it did absorb some Germanic elements from the Frankish rulers (hence the name "French"). I think English is well on its way to become the first really universal language, and modern means like the internet will prevent it from splitting into different languages. But I don't think we will see most of the world become Anglosaxon in the first two or three centuries. Keep in mind that in many countries/regions, administration and education is only available in one or at least a restricted number of languages (even when practically every local does understand the English language), in order to protect the local languages. In fact, one could argue that Latin wasn't even the first language "to do a Latin" : you might find Proto-Indo-European language interesting.Evilbu 16:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
English is becoming universal, but we will still probably see it mutate and evolve. Heck, txtspk and 1337 alone are fairly complex offshoots when you think of it, since they go beyond just slang. 1|= ! \/\/3R3 +0 +47|< +0 j00 71|<3 +|-|15, how ez wuld it b 4 u 2 undrstnd me? Blv t r nt, bcz f th pplrty f txtmsgng, w mght nt hv mny vwls lft, sn enf. lnguge s lwys evlvng, nd t's nt lk nglsh mks mch sns N-E-wy. We will probably see specific groups speak in complex slang, much in the way that MMO players nowadays do, with a number of in jokes, shorthand, and terms that can change meaning even from one game to the next. --Laugh! 14:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
"From your students you will learn"
Does anyone know the source or history of this saying? Thanks, Aviad2001 23:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't knoew if this is the original, but 6th century is good enough for me. (If someone would like to translate, (for the future reference): ”רבינא אמר כל האוהב ללמד בהמון לו תבואה והיינו דאמר רבי הרבה תורה למדתי מרבותי ומחבירי יותר מהם ומתלמידי יותר מכולן“ - Makkot 10a - 216.187.106.148 00:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Please could someone translate? This is the English-language Wikipedia. DuncanHill 00:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- A crude attempt:
- Said Ravina: ‘(the verse Ecclesiastes 5:9–10: “nor he that loveth abundance, with increase”) [means that] he who loves to learn with the masses, to him [comes] increase. And this is what Rebbi said: “Much learning I learnt from my teachers, more from my friends, and from my students most of all.” ’
- Ratzd'mishukribo 02:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you. DuncanHill 09:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
July 12
Television set etymology
What is the reason that the TV receiver is sometimes called a "television set" or "TV set"? Our TV article also sometimes refers to the receiver as a "television or TV set". Wiktionary shows this usage but provides no etymology. I've no recollection of a radio receiver being called a "radio set" so how do you suppose that that (Ooh, I love "that that") usage for TV came about? ~ hydnjo talk 01:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have heard of radio sets. I think the usage of set for a television or a radio is in its sense of "a complete assemblage or apparatus". Early radios and televisions were sometimes sold in kit-form, or one could buy a "sound-only" television receiver, so a set would be the complete works. DuncanHill 01:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, something like a "chess set" which would include the board along with the pieces? ~ hydnjo talk 01:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. DuncanHill 01:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Have you never heard of a Crystal set Hydnjo?--Tugjob 02:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, now that you call it to my attention I have indeed! I'd forgotten entirely about that and so it seems that memory may in fact be the first to go :-( ~ hydnjo talk 03:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Or other things that you once had have already gone, but you've forgotten you had them... Tesseran 04:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, now that you call it to my attention I have indeed! I'd forgotten entirely about that and so it seems that memory may in fact be the first to go :-( ~ hydnjo talk 03:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Quite possible but then, should we even care? ~ hydnjo talk 05:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Numbers
I learned that numbers less than or equal to ten are indicated by words (one, two, three, etc.) and that numbers greater than ten are indicated by numerals (238, 239, 240, etc.). Assuming that is correct, what is the proper format when a sentence combines numbers less than ten with numbers greater than ten? Example A: The judge gave John Smith a sentence of five to 15 years in prison. Example B: I expect anywhere from seven to 12 people at the reception tomorrow. In these instances, do you indicate both values in words, both values in numerals, or mix words with numerals? Also, what happens when hyphens are used, as in: In eight-12 years, we plan to retire. OR: He was given eight-12 years in prison. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 02:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
I have no idea about that, but I learned that there are different standards for which numbers you spell out and the ones that you use numerals for. I have heard the following:I learned that different people/groups have different standards for this. Three of which (the following three have absolutely nothing to do with each other, they are three different "rules") are:- Spell out numbers <= 10
- and Spell out numbers <= 20
- I vaguely remember hearing something about anything <= 5, but that could just be a memory lapse.
- I hope that that makes more sense; if it doesn't, just pretend like I never wrote anything.
- --Falconus 02:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Falconus, your rule above does not make sense. Is there a typo in there, somewhere? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 06:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
- Sorry for not being clear, but I was making the point that there didn't seem to be a set rule. I see now that it looks like I gave three parameters for one rule, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I definitely didn't mean to do that. Sorry for the confusion. --Falconus 14:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Falconus, your rule above does not make sense. Is there a typo in there, somewhere? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 06:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
- There is no absolute rule for this. Different companies, newspapers etc have their own style guides, containing overlapping but different rules. Be consistent in the same context, and refer to the most relevant style guide for the rules in these sorts of cases. If the particular guide doesn't address the issue, I'd treat each separate number according to the rules in the guide. -- JackofOz 03:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- For Wikipedia, the relevant style guide is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Numbers in words. In contexts such as the original poster's example A, it says that both "5 to 15" and "five to fifteen" are acceptable. But as Jack says, this is something where style guides will differ. The original poster also asked about hyphenated style, like "5-15". That's never used with numbers written as words. By the way, if the en dash character is available, it is often preferred to the hyphen. --Anonymous, July 12, 09:56 (UTC), missing "if" added 23:23.
- I am more familiar with the style in which the first of a sequence of numbers is spelt out, and subsequent numbers are writen in numerals. eg "Children are tested at seven, 11, and 13" DuncanHill 14:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thus "The winning numbers were three hundred ninety-eight, 53, 8, 412, and 201" ? Tesseran 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but seeing that has reminded me that lottery numbers always seem to be written in numerals (maybe because they have no meaning other than as conventional signs). To return to the prison example at top, "The judge sentenced her to serve seven to 9 years". DuncanHill 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Usually when you see something like "seven, 11, and 13", it's because the numbers are in ascending order and someone has strictly applied a rule like "spell out numbers up to 10". I've never heard it suggested that the first number in such a series should be treated differently just because it is first. --Anonymous, July 12, 23:23 (UTC).
- Yes, but seeing that has reminded me that lottery numbers always seem to be written in numerals (maybe because they have no meaning other than as conventional signs). To return to the prison example at top, "The judge sentenced her to serve seven to 9 years". DuncanHill 14:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thus "The winning numbers were three hundred ninety-eight, 53, 8, 412, and 201" ? Tesseran 14:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am more familiar with the style in which the first of a sequence of numbers is spelt out, and subsequent numbers are writen in numerals. eg "Children are tested at seven, 11, and 13" DuncanHill 14:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, consistency within a document is more important than attending to some arbitrary rule, but the guideline I've used is: spell it out if it's a single word (eleven, twenty, three) and use numerals if it's more (44, 95), but only use one style if you're making a list (11, 20, 3, 44, 95... not eleven, twenty, three, 44, 95). Most importantly, I ignore that guideline if it makes sense to do so. For example, if I'm dealing with serial numbers and quantities of them and I need to do it in a proper sentence, then I'd use "I need twenty-four 280653s", not "I need 24 280653s." Matt Deres 13:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Not entirely relevant to the question, but: I prefer to use digits only when all the digits shown are significant. —Tamfang 19:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Tamfang -- what does that mean? Can you offer a few examples? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 19:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC))
- Examples and an explanation are provided in the significant figures article Tamfang linked. —ReverendTed 22:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Tamfang -- what does that mean? Can you offer a few examples? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 19:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC))
- I know what a significant digit is. I am asking for clarification (i.e., an example or two) of how that concept relates to the topic at hand (i.e., spelling out a number in words versus using numerals).
- For example, I write "two hundred" rather than "200" unless I know that the actual number is definitely between 195 and 205; my point is that even a zero says something, and ought not to be used as a wildcard, whereas with words the extra digits are omitted rather than (misleadingly) specified. I write (and say) "half" rather than "50%" unless the population (if it's a count noun) is at least 100 and the actual fraction is between 49% and 51%. —Tamfang 04:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
trying to remember a term
What's the word for a falsehood deliberately planted in a text to catch out plagiarists?
While we're at it, what's the word for the sensation of having a word on the tip of your tongue?
Adambrowne666 03:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- First one is fictitious entry, Mountweazel, or Nihilartikel. —Keenan Pepper 03:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- See also the canary trap. --Anon, July 12, 2007, 23:25 (UTC).
- Oh, and more relevant, copyright trap. --Anon, July 13, 07:25 (UTC).
- For the second, I'm not aware there is a term for this; which makes sense because "it's on the tip of my tongue" is already a standard English expression (it is not afaik reflected in other languages) that substitutes for a longer and more physiologically accurate expression such as "I can almost remember this, but not quite". -- JackofOz 04:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- There's tip of the tongue (TOT) phenomenon (ok, so that's not one word - so sue me). Clarityfiend 04:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
FYI it exists, in the exact same meanings, at least in Serbo-Croatian (na vrhu jezika). I can check for other Slavic languages if you wish. Duja► 11:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)I should learn to read the remainder before jumping in. Duja► 11:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, all, great stuff.Adambrowne666 04:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Wow, 45 other languages have a similar expression. Great info, Clarityfiend. (When I was writing my previous reply, I was almost going to say "I heard this word once; it's on the tip of my tongue but I can't quite remember it" - but thought that was too obvious a joke even for me). -- JackofOz 04:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- In a typical example of a technical word being debased for a vaguely comic use I have heard lethologica used to describe tip of the toungishness. Aphasia and logamnesia may also be used and if the tip of your tongue really begins to burn it may be described as loganamnosis. meltBanana 19:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
'salvame salvame salvation dn tando prinsipe
what is the translation of 'salvame salvame salvation dn tando prinsipe?
- It says that you can only be saved from a visitation by ghosts if you pass on the message this is part of to 12 other people.[22] --LambiamTalk 07:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Mistake in Wikipedia logo
why dont you correct your mistake about the letter written in sanskrit as a reference to WIKI in your logo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.7.112.77 (talk • contribs)
- Who are you asking? Sanskrit is not a script but a language, and many Indian scripts are used for writing Sanskrit text, several of which are represented on the logo. Presumably you mean the Devanagari (non-)character, which indeed does not make sense. I'm not sure which was the intended syllable (move hook to the left, or flip it over?); also, the computer I'm on now doesn't have the fonts. I'm not an expert, but the Chinese character and the Japanese katakana digram also look wrong: one has an extra little stroke the other is missing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more problems I don't see – I'm not an expert on these scripts. I'd think there are image editors that would allow one to fix the image, but am not sure how difficult that is. --LambiamTalk 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- This anomaly was the subject of a recent item in the Wikipedia Signpost. The fellow who designed the logo has admitted to the unintentional mistake, but says he doesn't have time to correct it. Life moves on... Shalom Hello 22:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- Specifically, this article. --JayHenry 04:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Translation for pin sylvastre
pin sylvastre it is name of an aromatic essential oil in french. May I know name of the plant/ tree in english and aso the botanical name of the plant.
- If you mean pin sylvestre, the British name of this plant is "Scots pine", and its American name is "Scotch pine". The botanical name is "Pinus sylvestris". Marco polo 18:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
July 13
Two left feet
Is there a corresponding idiom in German that I can use? As in, 'everyone was dancing but I have two left feet' --iamajpeg 00:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- My dictionary says you can use the exact same idiom in German: Ich habe zwei linke Füße. I've never heard anyone actually say this in German, though. —Angr 06:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've heard it, though not as often as in English, and definitely not as often as: "Ich habe zwei linke Hände" for "I'm clumsy, unskilful with my hands, all thumbs and cack-handed" It seems possible to me - beware, this is entirely unreferenced - that "zwei linke Füße" crept up with the help of more recent anglo-exposition. The only "literary" reference I can come up with is Farin Urlaub, who used it in Ich gehöre nicht dazu: "Denn ich hab' zwei linke Füße, Tanzen ist für mich tabu" ("For I have two left feet, dancing is taboo for me.") I might have even heard the phrase in English first, thanks to "two left feet, but oh so neat". But I may be dead wrong, and its usage may be far older then what I found. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! After looking through Google I went for two left hands --iamajpeg 17:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Germans usually dance with their hands? Nil Einne 19:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, they make use of their hands while dancing. Haven't you ever seen that traditional Bavarian dance where they smack each other upside the head? —Angr 15:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Letters of the alphabet
What letter is in all 66 languages?
- Which 66 languages? There are far more than 66 languages used on Earth. -- JackofOz 02:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Would I be correct in guessing that the a (ah) sound is common to all languages? Sandman30s 11:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, what do you mean by "the ah sound"? Looking at IPA sounds that you might be referring to (and just clicking around randomly), Persian has only /ɒ/, Hopi has only /ɑ/, and Nahuatl has only /a/. So right there, it's impossible for every language to have any one of these sounds. (I think there's almost certainly some language without any sound at all like /a/, I just don't know it.) Tesseran 07:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about this: would he be correct in guessing that all languages have one or more open vowels? I suspect he would, and in guessing that all languages have one or more close vowels too. —Angr 07:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yanesha' language (aka Amuesha) uses only /e a o/, i.e. low and mid vowels but no high vowels. I also remember seeing a description of some protolanguage reconstructed as using only two vowels, neither of them high; but it's best not to take such things too literally. —Tamfang 18:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- The article indicates that /e/ and /o/ also have high realizations, so it's a purely academic question whether the underlying phoneme is high or mid. Proto-Indo-European is sometimes alleged to have had only /e/ and /o/ (not even /a/!), but (1) that ignores the good evidence that PIE did have /a/ (though it was rare), and (2) that assumes that /i/ and /u/ are just syllabic allophones of /j/ and /w/. —Angr 07:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yanesha' language (aka Amuesha) uses only /e a o/, i.e. low and mid vowels but no high vowels. I also remember seeing a description of some protolanguage reconstructed as using only two vowels, neither of them high; but it's best not to take such things too literally. —Tamfang 18:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about this: would he be correct in guessing that all languages have one or more open vowels? I suspect he would, and in guessing that all languages have one or more close vowels too. —Angr 07:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, what do you mean by "the ah sound"? Looking at IPA sounds that you might be referring to (and just clicking around randomly), Persian has only /ɒ/, Hopi has only /ɑ/, and Nahuatl has only /a/. So right there, it's impossible for every language to have any one of these sounds. (I think there's almost certainly some language without any sound at all like /a/, I just don't know it.) Tesseran 07:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- The heading is "letters of the alphabet", so I think the questioner is interested in letters (ie. shapes), not sounds. (The same letter in different alphabets doesn't necessarily represent the same or even a similar sound.) This is not a simple question, as a glance at the "Characters" set in the editing box shows. For example, there are at least 10 different diacritical forms of the letters A, E, I and O, and 15 forms of U. Are these all considered different letters? I think the answer depends on which language you're talking about - some count diacritical forms as variants of the base letter, but others regard them as entirely distinct - and no language uses all of them, just their own sub-set. And that's just the vowels. Alphabets derived from the Latin#Basic Latin Alphabet gives a table showing 30 alphabets and their use of each of the 26 letters. All of these 30 use the letters A, E, G, H, I, L, M, N, O, P, R, S and T. Then there's a list of 18 further languages that use "at least all the 26 letters". English is mentioned both in the table and the list, so the total is 30 + 18 - 1 = 47. Looking at the languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet, the 20 of which our article gives details all seem to use A, E, H, M, O, P and T (so we can eliminate G, I, L, N, R and S). The Greek alphabet also uses these same 7 letters. That seems to make at least 68 alphabets that use A, E, H, M, O, P and T (whatever the sounds are). So the question seems to be based on a false premise. However I've been focussing on upper case letters, and when we look at lower-case letters and italicised letters, the story gets ever more complex. Then there's the issue of whether some languages should be excluded because some consider them to be merely dialects of other languages, even where there are differences between the 2 alphabets. It's all too hard really. -- JackofOz 06:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Hawaiian also has A, E, H, M, O, and P, but not T. Korean hangul has letters that look like E, H, O, and T, but not A, M, or P. --Reuben 15:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- True. So that makes at least 70 languages that all use E, H and O. -- JackofOz 01:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Trainer?
which is correct trainor or trainer??
- Trainer. A quick visit to Wiktionary would have made that evident. The Jade Knight 03:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Even simpler, google does it too.
Unknown 'S' Symbol
Ever since grade school, I've wondered the origin/meaning of this symbol (sorry for the ASCII art, it's the best I could do):
^
/ \
/ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |__|
\ \
_\ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
\ /
V
- It's hard doing a search for a symbol... -- MacAddct1984 14:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- All I can make out from the ascii art is that it's an S - the article has a list of S#Similar letters and symbols which might be of use to you. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 14:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you might mean:
- ʃ - Esh (letter)
- § - a Section sign
- --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 14:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, you might mean:
- And if the leads provided by User:Hughcharlesparker prove inadequate, you can also try symbol search. dr.ef.tymac 14:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I might be wrong, but this looks a bit like the NC State symbol (the way people hand-draw it) to me. Might it be from a college or University near where you went to grade school?--Falconus 14:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- ... and also like the Stanford Cardinal symbol – but isn't that simply because both are based on the letter S in a common block letter font used for lettering on athletic shirts? --LambiamTalk 15:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I might be wrong, but this looks a bit like the NC State symbol (the way people hand-draw it) to me. Might it be from a college or University near where you went to grade school?--Falconus 14:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the responses. I did have a quick look at the S page, but to no avail. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, just something easy and interesting to draw on the margins of one's notebook ;) -- MacAddct1984 14:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps you could scan/photograph/draw a specimen and post it? --TotoBaggins 21:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the responses. I did have a quick look at the S page, but to no avail. Maybe it doesn't mean anything, just something easy and interesting to draw on the margins of one's notebook ;) -- MacAddct1984 14:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- My friend who introduced this S to me calls it the Superman S although the ascii S does not look like it. Your ascii S probably caught on because it was artistic; it was a "block letter"; the curves of the S are fused together. --Mayfare 21:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Have you seen the symbol used somewhere, or is it only something you saw when your friend drew it for you? --Anon, July 13, 21:37 (UTC).
- An Australian point of view here. I've definitely seen this when I was going to primary school (which is kindergarten to year 6). I just assumed there was no meaning, but it caught on because it looks nice. - Akamad 00:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Could it be an ampersand sometimes handwritten as a backwards 3 superimposed with a vertical line? Or, if I squint hard enough, it could be a G–clef. ~ hydnjo talk 02:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
From my memories of primary school (also an Aussie here), it looked a bit more like this:
^
/ \
/ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |__|
\ \ /
/_\ \
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
\ /
V
Where the S was joined together at the back and it looked more like a chain-link of some sort. I agree with Akamad that it probably has no meaning, just a cool looking symbol kids drew on their excersize books. --Candy-Panda 06:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
For what little it's worth, in Pasadena circa 1967 I was taught to draw it this way:
/ \ / \ | |\ | | | \| \ \ \ \ |\ | | | \| | \ / \ /
– starting with the six vertical strokes and joining them with the obliques. No idea what, if anything, it was meant to stand for; but at age 7 or so I found the construction clever. —Tamfang 18:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that's all it is, a way some kid found to draw a stylized "S". It might be a logo, since I know a friend who has a habit of drawing this and adding bubbly letters that spell "Smile" onto the end, but Smile doesn't sohw anything.I'd assume that it's just a schoolyard thing --Laugh! 14:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've only known it as a stylised S with a special method of drawing it - two rows of three vertical lines, then two diagonals, then a broken diagonal, then the points at top and bottom. Confusing Manifestation 04:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- All of these pictures just look like an S to me. The conversation is just as confusing. Am I missing something? Capuchin 07:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Always made me think of Kiss or the Waffen SS, but they are not quite the same. Lanfear's Bane
- All of these pictures just look like an S to me. The conversation is just as confusing. Am I missing something? Capuchin 07:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
if you cant beat them join them
Hi,
Can you please tell me what is the origin of the phrase: "if you cant beat them join them"
Thank you
- Essentially, take the path of least resistance and stop hitting your head against a brick wall. If you can't win the fight against your enemies, align and assimilate with your enemies. (JosephASpadaro 21:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC))
- The actual origin is lost in time, but this page says the first recorded instance of the phrase is from 1941, where Quentin Reynolds in 'The Wounded Don't Cry' writes "There's an old political adage which says 'If you can't lick 'em, jine 'em.'" 152.16.59.190 05:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Ubiquitous noun
On Slashdot today, somebody used the word "ubiquitousness," which caused at least two posters to get their knickers in a twist, insisting that the only acceptable noun would be "ubiquity." Merriam-Webster seems to be of two minds. (Interesting how neither of their definitions points to the other). Does anybody have citations for a preference of one form over the other? Thanks. --LarryMac | Talk 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Chambers Dictionary 1983 edition has only ubiquity. The -ness suffix is highly productive in colloquial English however, and in informal language I would have no real objection to "ubiquitousness". I wouldn't ever (I hope) use it myself tho'. DuncanHill 17:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- It gets 78,000 ghits. Unanimousness gets 2,700, and the ghastly anonymousness gets 14,400. Apparently the adjectival form "ubiquitous" is considerably more common than the noun "ubiquity", so much so that many people are unfamiliar with the latter word and have to invent a nominative form. It's interesting. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
July 14
"the" in the Philippines
I would like to ask why there is still a need to use the article "the" in countries like the Philippines, the Bahamas, the United States, etc. Why do we say, "I live in the Philippines" and not I live in Philippines? I don't think I have ever heard of anything like "I have been to the Malaysia." Thank you in advance for any elaborate answer that you can provide. Carlrichard 11:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- The the is still customary for countries whose names are grammatically plural, such as the Philippines, the Bahamas, the United States, the Netherlands, etc. Some countries and with singular names traditionally had the the as well, such as the Ukraine, the Sudan, and the Gambia, but that's becoming less popular, and more people are saying simply Ukraine, Sudan, and Gambia. Whether the plural names will ever go that route remains to be seen. —Angr 11:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have the impression that The Gambia is a counterexample, where the article came into official use late in the entity's existence. —Tamfang 18:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but plural in what sense? All I notice is that all the countries that you have mentioned end in -s. Carlrichard 11:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess it's hard to know at what point a place name that etymologically originates as a plural is no longer felt as one. Certainly "Massachusetts", "Athens", and "Thebes", also originally plurals, are no longer felt to be plural, and people don't say "the Massachusetts", "the Athens", and "the Thebes". (I don't know if they ever did!) The Philippines and the Bahamas, of course, are archipelagos, so their names could be considered short for "the Philippine Islands" and "the Bahama Islands" (the same holds for the Seychelles, the Comoros, and the Maldives, but for some reason the Solomon Islands are AFAIK never called "the Solomons"). —Angr 12:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Why do we not say the Indonesia (which is also an archipelago and therefore plural in sense)? Carlrichard
- Because grammatically the word "Indonesia" is singular, regardless of the fact that it refers to a country that happens to be an archipelago. If you're talking about the archipelago per se, it would be "the Indonesian archipelago". -- JackofOz 21:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Hmm.. I wonder why Indonesia does not end in -s, like the Philippines, which is also an archipelago like Indonesia. Carlrichard 13:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Australia has a military operation in the Solomons, so it's very topical here. We always refer to "the Solomon Islands" or "the Solomons". People also used to refer to Lebanon and Argentina as "the Lebanon" (probably a carry-over from "the Levant") and "the Argentine" (a particularly noticeable practice of media reporters during the Falklands War), but that seems to have stopped. But what about "the Central African Republic" - does anyone say "I'm going to Central African Republic"? On the original question, other than in adjectival usages, I've never heard the U.S. referred to as simply "United States". One lives in "the" United States, not in United States. This is a simple plural denoting a collection of states, so the "the" is entirely appropriate. -- JackofOz 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Note that "the United States" could be seen as an example of another pattern; when the name is an actual noun phrase, rather than just a name, it takes an article.* Thus "in Russia" / "in the Soviet Union", "in England" / "in the UK", "in Yugoslavia" / "in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia", etc. This takes place even when the noun phrase is not a formal name: "on the Crimean peninsula", "on the continent of Australia", "within the united city-states of Greece", etc. [* This is not supposed to be a formal definition or anything.] Tesseran 05:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- We also say The Czech Republic, though I have seen attempts to change that to Czechia. Corvus cornix 19:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Australia has a military operation in the Solomons, so it's very topical here. We always refer to "the Solomon Islands" or "the Solomons". People also used to refer to Lebanon and Argentina as "the Lebanon" (probably a carry-over from "the Levant") and "the Argentine" (a particularly noticeable practice of media reporters during the Falklands War), but that seems to have stopped. But what about "the Central African Republic" - does anyone say "I'm going to Central African Republic"? On the original question, other than in adjectival usages, I've never heard the U.S. referred to as simply "United States". One lives in "the" United States, not in United States. This is a simple plural denoting a collection of states, so the "the" is entirely appropriate. -- JackofOz 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
On a side note, the Philippines is plural in form in Spanish (Filipinas) and Latin (Philippinae). Since we're here, does anyone know why there's a 'the' in "The Hague" ?--Jondel 06:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- The_Hague#History has some info on its naming - it is Den Haag (the hedge), or s'Gravenhaag (the Count's hedge) in Dutch. DuncanHill 09:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Seychelles, strangely enough, often appears without the "the," as in the title of the Wikipedia article. The government of Ukraine has made a conscious effort to stamp out the "the" in its name, since the "the" made it look like a region rather than a country in its own right. The irony is Slavic languages like Ukranian and Russian don't have a true equivalent to our word "the." -- Mwalcoff 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure the names of the Wikipedia articles for all these countries don't have a the: Comoros, Philippines, Netherlands, Bahamas, United States, etc. I think the Ukrainian government's efforts to get rid of the the worked in English, but not necessarily in other languages. I think most people in German still say die Ukraine, but then Germans say die Schweiz, die Slowakei, die Türkei, der Iran, and der Irak, without any implication that those places are mere regions, not countries. And in Irish virtually all country names take the definite article (the notable exceptions being Ireland and Scotland, which only take the definite article in the genitive, and England, which never does). —Angr 14:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Seychelles, strangely enough, often appears without the "the," as in the title of the Wikipedia article. The government of Ukraine has made a conscious effort to stamp out the "the" in its name, since the "the" made it look like a region rather than a country in its own right. The irony is Slavic languages like Ukranian and Russian don't have a true equivalent to our word "the." -- Mwalcoff 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
(By the way, why do we say the United kingdom, and not the United Kingdoms of Great Britain?
- Because it is just one Kingdom. With one King (or Queen obviously). Queen Elizabeth is Queen of the United Kingdom. However the one kingdom consists of many nations. Cyta 16:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Also because it is not the United Kingdom of Great Britain, but rather the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland not being part of Great Britain at all. Algebraist 16:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- And as the monarch reigns over all those countries collectively but none of them
invididuallyindividually, it is wrong to refer to the Queen as "The Queen of England". The last time there was a "Queen/King of England" was at least as long ago as 1707, and even arguably as long ago as 1284, when Wales came under the control of England, the new entity becoming for some purposes known as "England and Wales" (but it's not clear cut).-- JackofOz 21:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- And as the monarch reigns over all those countries collectively but none of them
Ok. I thought Wales, Scotland and England were all "kingdoms"; that's why, I asked why we say only the United Kingdom and not United Kingdoms, like the United States. Carlrichard 13:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
July 15
Mathemiticians names in IPA
I've begun putting together a "Mathematician pronunciation guide" for myself at User:Foxjwill/Mathematician pronunciation guide, and because I'm interested in IPA, I thought it would be fun to try and put the pronunciation in IPA. But since I'm what would be called an "amateur," I'd really like it if someone (or -ones) could check the pronunciations for me, and explain why my mistakes were mistakes. Foxjwill 05:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Are these supposed to be as the mathematician would have pronounced their own name, or as it's pronounced in English today? Tesseran 05:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- In the first case, what a challenge! I am not sure that Descartes would pronounce its name today in the same way as he used to do it in 1610: French pronounciation has evolved. --AldoSyrt 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- It would actually be very interesting to try for both! Foxjwill
- For Mandelbrot and Peano (in current French and Italian pronunciations) see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 12#Names. --Lambiam 14:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think /nˈj/ in Agnesi should be /ˈɲɲ/. --Lambiam 14:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Why /ˈɲɲ/ apposed to /ˈɲ/? Foxjwill 02:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- In d'Alembert /əm/ should be /ɑ̃/ (I think). Also note that French has no word stress, but only phrasal intonation. --Lambiam 14:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean by French not having word stress? Foxjwill 02:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- There's some information under Stress (linguistics)#Timing and placement and Prosody (linguistics). ---Sluzzelin talk 13:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I do not feel confortable with IPA, thus FWIW (Today standard French from Île-de-France):
- Alexis Claude Clairaut - /klɛʁo/
- Jean le Rond d'Alembert - /dalɑ̃beʁ/
- Gérard Desargues - /dezaʁg/? /dɛzaʁg/? /dəsaʁg/?
- Pierre de Fermat - /fɛʁma/
- Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier - /fuʁje/
- Camille Jordan - /ʒɔʁdɑ̃/
- AldoSyrt 19:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Latina derriere
A girl who wants to be a ballet danser describes herself as having a "curvaceous Latina derriere". Am I right if it is a fat bottom? But why Latina?
- She's referring to the popular stereotype of Hispanic women as gluteally gifted. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- She is Latina, perhaps? — gogobera (talk) 04:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- See also Vida Guerra. Ballet is (in)famous for imposing very strict, very lean body standards on its dancers. --TotoBaggins 17:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
A useful word here is steatopygous Adambrowne666 21:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
July 16
what does the "H" mean ?
Here's one for you. What does the "H" stand for /mean in the saying "Jesus H. Christ"?-shredder0288
- Oh ye of little faith. Believe that Wikipedia has an article on everything, and it will. Just click on Jesus H. Christ. Happy reading. -- JackofOz 04:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- His middle name was Henry. Capuchin 07:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, his middle name was Harold. Thus the Lord's Prayer - "Our father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name." --LarryMac | Talk 16:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I thought Harold was the angel's name, as in Hark, the Harold angels sing. —Angr 16:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, his middle name was Harold. Thus the Lord's Prayer - "Our father who art in heaven, Harold be thy name." --LarryMac | Talk 16:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- His middle name was Henry. Capuchin 07:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Grammar usage
Mr. & Mrs. Smith have a daughter, Mary. Mary marries Tom Hanover. Which of the following is correct?
Mary Hanover's maiden name is Smith.
Mary Hanover's maiden name was Smith.
Thank you,
M
- This would be a great question for the English Language Reference Desk. Both usages are current, but it seems that "was" is used more often. I am not sure which is preferred in edilect (formal written English). The Jade Knight 12:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is still her maiden name, so 'is' is correct. However, as it's a name she may no longer use, 'was' would also be idiomatic. — Gareth Hughes 12:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- One could make a distinction between "My surname was Smith" and "My maiden name is Smith". But I agree with JK and GH that "was" is idiomatically ok for the second example.
- If, prior to marriage, Mary had changed her surname legally to e.g. Coburg, then she could quite accurately say "My maiden name was Hanover but now it is Coburg". Sounds odd, admittedly. -- JackofOz 13:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- After Mary
snuffs itshuffles off this mortal coil, however, I'd say her maiden name was Smith. —Angr 15:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)- She just began her new life with Tom and we're already planning for her death? For shame... Joe 18:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- After Mary
types of actors in C 17th france
Hi, I'm looking for a list of the strange synonyms for 'actor' that were used in 17th century Europe - can't remember if they were idioms or epithets, or descriptive terms for the different types of theatre in which the actor subtypes performed. Can anyone help me with this? I'm particularly hopinh for derogatory terms suggestive of overacting, pantomime, general hammishness.
Thanks all, Adambrowne666 12:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone turned this up independantly?
I'm trying to find (Again) A General History of the Pyrates, which I KNOW I found on some North Carolinian univeristy's page (It wasn't Chapel Hill/Ibiblio), however all I'm getting are noxious reprints on Google. The original is definitely out of copyright (17something!), but Wikisource's is this useless thing with maybe 8 paragraphs: s:A General History of the Robberies and Murders of the most notorious Pyrates. Thanx, 68.39.174.238 16:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Did you ask User:Sherurcij where he got the text to add to Wikisource? —Angr 16:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Have a look at this book. I know nothing about this book, but some of the text from your title (as read in this limited preview) matches. Wareh 16:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I found this [23] which may be helpful. DuncanHill 20:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Have a look at this book. I know nothing about this book, but some of the text from your title (as read in this limited preview) matches. Wareh 16:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
what does he says?
At this audio [24] at the minute 04:45 there is a word that I don't understand. He says something like "huge tanks of ??". Could a native speaker of English tell me what he says.
- Thanks!!