Talk:Territorial changes of the Baltic states
For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Occupied territories of Baltic States
Hmmm, there are some factual inaccuracies in this text. It suggests that the Suvalkai region (or the region of Suwałki) was annexed by Soviet Union and then attached to Russian FSR. I don't know, perhaps it might be right. However, that region was not in Lithuania at least since the Union of Lublin and certainly not in the 1920's and 1930's. It was claimed by the Lithuanian Republic, but it was not in Lithuania and was granted to Poland eventually. Perhaps the author was writing about Suvalkija, which was the Lithuanian name for the Lithuanian part of that region, which was Lithuanian both before WWII and after it (Lithuanian SSR, to be precise) and is in Lithuania currently as well. Halibutt 20:03, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hello. It doesnt says that Suvalkai region was attached to Russia, but it surely was occupied by Soviet Union after WW2: whole eastern Europe was occupied with Russian troops then. And then new state boundaries were formed (East Poland was attached to Soviet Union, and Poland was given part of East Germany). So by what is written "Ceded to Poland by Russians after the WW2 ended" I meant that after WW2 ended, Soviets decided that Suvalkai region should be remained as part of Poland, unlike eastern lands of interwar Poland, including Vilnius region, which were attached to SSRs of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. However you are right that Suvalkai region probably wasn't dirrectly ruled by Lithuania, unlike Vilnius region for a brief time (but I am not 100% sure here). Just forgot what I typed in the opening section by the time I started typing to that place lol. Suvalkai region is worth an inclusion here though in my opinion because it was claimed by Lithuania as an integral part of Lithuania, same as Vilnius region, up till 1938 ultimatum DeirYassin 20:20, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I find the title of this article highly problematic. As far as I know, the governments of the Baltic States have no territorial claims on their neighbours at this time. They have officially acknowledged their current borders as legitimate and signed treaties with their neighbours to that effect. Therefore, from the standpoint of international law, there are no occupied territories of the Baltic States. So, the term occupied territories is an extreme formulation which does not fit the current facts. At the very least this article needs a different, more neutral title. In my opinion, information in this article should be moved to articles about the histories of the individual countries. Balcer 22:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Latvian-Russian and Estonian-Russian border treaties are not ratified (and I think not even signed, though I am not 100% sure). Latvia and Estonia raises this in talks with Russia. Now Latvia is thinking about doing th eborder treaty with Russia, however there is a discution cause of Abrene region now, certain groups pressures on referendum werether Latvia should sign border treaty of the current border or continue to seek for Abrene region. Estonia continues to seek for occupied territories for now. DeirYassin 05:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed Russia is holding out on ratifying treaties with Latvia and Estonia. The treaty between Lithuania and Russia, on the other hand, has been ratified by both sides. (see [1] and [2]). So at the very least, if you want to keep the current title, references to "occupied" areas of Lithuania should be removed. Balcer 06:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, the article mentions all territories which were considered parts of Baltic States in interwar, but are no longer now due to decitions of Soviet Union. The comparement of views towards those territories in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania is also an important part of article. It says in the article that Lithuania doesn't looks back to the lost territories, unlike Latvia and (especially) Estonia, there is no claim to them and it didn't make any problems when ratifying border treaty. Also, these territories are now in Belarus (Eastern Vilnius region) and Poland (Suvalkai region), not Russia. A part which is now in Russia (Lithuania Minor) is mentioned at one place (bellow the article) but it is merely explained why that territory is not included.DeirYassin 08:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- But it also mentions territories which were never considered part of the Baltics and were no more than Lithuanian claims (just like with Suwałki), whereas the article presents them as areas belonging to certain countries and under foreign occupation. It's like saying that the Norman province of Great Britain is currently under Anglo-Saxon occupation... Or even more, that the French Ville Libre du Dantzik is under Polish occupation... Halibutt 23:11, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Well, it is important, as you have seen in that Estonia map (and if you type "eesti" in google images great number of maps will be like that), by many they are regarded as occupied territories, and no official border treaties are ratified yet. There is a comparement of different countries view to those territories. Vilnisu region and Suvalaki region were brifefly controlled by Lithuania. What is more important however, that during interwar they were always part of Lithuania in Lithuanian hearts: therefore it is still a big change that Lithuania decided not to look back to these territories, unlike say Estonia or Latvia (less than Estonia), and especially that such map was banned in Lithuania, despite of fact that similar maps are printed almost as standart in Estonia. You could similarly write an article on East Poland if you want too maybe, but in Polsih case it is more complicated as it received new territories too, so it should be an article about border change in general I guess. This is encyclopedia, the more info the better, and it Baltic States especially Latvia and Estonia these things are frequently being discussed about. DeirYassin 08:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- But currently neither Suwałki (Suvalkija) nor Vilnius area are occupied by anyone. And the state that had occupied them does not exist any more. I agree that the more info we have the better, but it should be accurate and not some one-sided vision of history supported only with strong words. Halibutt 10:04, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Yet again, Suvalkija (Sudovia) is not the same as [{Suvalkai region]]. Suvalkija is not occupied, Vilnius city is not either, yes. It talks here about Eastern Vilnius region (eastern part of Vilnius region) and Suvalkai region, which are in Belarus and Poland respectively. The fact is that these territories were part of Lithuania (at least briefly, and considered by Lithuanians as part of Lithuania for long time) in the interwar, but they arent now. Occuppied IMO can be used here because all these territories of said Baltic States were annexed without consent of democratic nonpuppet governments of Baltic States. But if you'd suggest some other terms tell them. DeirYassin 11:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- How about: Territorial claims of Baltic States or maybe Historical territories of Baltic States, even Former territories of Baltic States or Border disputes of Baltic States. All sound much less extreme to me than the current title, with the highly questionable word occupied. Balcer 20:06, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Claims not good because there are no real "claims" as there are e.g. in Kashmir or Chinese clame on Taiwan or as there was in interwar on Vilnius region. Historical territories is very broad, might be e.g. whole territory of GDL and such. Lost territories of Baltic States' might be good, maybe former, maybe WW2 impact on territories of Baltic States but I dont know. DeirYassin 20:23, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Petseri region
Petseri region or Petchery never had a "clear majority of Baltic people later russified". Ethnic composition of the region was always mixed Estonian/Russian. Petseri/Pechery region also was a part of various East Slavic/Russian states before 20th century interwar period (part of Kievan Rus, Pskov/Novgorod, Moscovy, Russian Empire)
In 15th centry a Russian Christian Orthodox monastery was built in Pechery and became one of holiest sites for Russian Christians. Prior to 1721 incorporation of the Baltic into Russian Empire, Petchery was a Russian town fortified since early 16th century to defend the Russian border from German and later Swedish and Polish attacks.
The rest of the article is highly questionable as well.-(Fisenko)
It does not say that all of these territories had a clear majority of Baltic peoples nor that Petseri did; it says that some did however, which is true. Also, what I said in Talk:Abrene region applies.DeirYassin 08:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Vilnius region
I consider it as highly violent to call Hrodna and Lida 'occupied territories'. Due to ethnographical and historical reasons as occupied can be treated the city of Vilnia (Vilnius) with the surrounding region of Vilenščyna that was historically inhabited by Belarusian population, moreover it was declared part of the Belarus National Republic in 1918.
Please remove this "Eastern Vilnius territory" or whatever from the article. --Czalex 15:14, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Hello, it doesn't matters what nationalities inhabitted territories at the given time; the point of this article is to mention territories which blonged to the Baltic States during the interwar. Besides, in the Eastern Vilnius region actually there were big Lithuanian populations once, at places Lithuanians constituted majority (Gervėčiai, Rodūnia, Varanavas, etc.). Anyways, this article is about political dependency rather than national one. In Petseri region and Abrene region there were always many Russians too, but these regions belonged to Estonia and Latvia respectively, therefore are included here. DeirYassin 15:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
- Well, as to Eastern Lithuania/ Central Lithuania / whatever the problem is that there were three states in the interbellum to claim that territory. All three claims were somehow legitimate: the Belarusian claim was based on the agreement with the German government who, according to international law, wsas the ruler of that area after the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Lithuanian claim was based on the fact that the Bolshevist Russia captured those territories in 1920 and transferred them to Lithuania following the Moscow talks of 1920. And finally, the Polish claim was based on the fact that the majority of the population of the said area voted to join Poland.
- I'm listing here only the factors that are valid in the international law and I'm letting alone all the historical/ethnographical/whatever factors. So, in other words, all three countries were legitimate owners of the area - yet only one controlled it eventually. Saying that it was occupied is illogical, especially that it would be occupied by Lithuania should that state get it or occupied by Belarus should that state survive. Halibutt 09:29, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
- Majority voted to join Poland not of whole area, parts of area were not given right to vote and such, we discussed that in past. Also, is that really the case where there is international law? I think it depends on different laws of different states werether referendums of seccession are permitted, and before that referendum the region was Lithuania's officially so Lithuanian laws would have applied. Belorussian National Republic did not survive however. Therefore in case the region would have been controlled by Lithuania, it wouldn't have been occupied same as e.g. according to international law territories where referendums are not made aren't considered occupied as far as I understand. E.g. who knows maybe Crimea would vote to seccede but nobody considers it an occupied territory. Same for many other regions. And also, if some Lithuanian general would stage and inasion to Punskas and declare referendum in the region on werether it would want to be part of Lithuania, and people would vote yes, would you say that everything was done according to international law? Especially if territory in question would be somewhat larger than one around Punskas, but only people of Punskas and surrounding villages would decide the future of the territory.DeirYassin 09:54, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- No, Deir Yassin, it was not only Lithuanian "officially". Personally, I believe that according to the international law, the Belarusian position was the strongest. Russia was the governor of the area following the Partitions of Poland. It ceded its rights to the area in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk to Germany, which in turn ceded its rights to Belarus. So, in other words, the true successor to the power in the area was the short-lived Belarusian Republic.
- As per Lithuanian sovereignity over the city and its surroundings was based on the fact that Bolshevist Russia occupied it militarily and then transfered it to Lithuanian authorities. Yet, the Russian legal sovereignity over those territories is quite disputable, especially that it was a successor state to the Russia that ceded those areas to Germany. So, in other words, the 1920 treaty with Lithuania was in conflict with the earlier peace treaty ruling she signed with Germany. Polish claims to that area are even less based on international law. In other words, all three states were legitimate owners of the area, with the Belarusian position being the strongest - in legal terms, of course.
- As to the Sejm elections themselves - the basis for the creation of the Central Lithuanian parliament was Entente's decision to promote the right of self-governance and self-determination. Whether it makes the Polish control over the area legitimate or not is not the point. The point here is that it was no more nor less legitimate than the Lithuanian claim to the area. Yet, this article expresses only one-sided POV.
- And as to the hypotetical referendum: if such a referendum happened and decided the future of the said area, then it would most probably be binding, provided that all citizens were granted equal rights. It's the first time I hear that in the elections to the Central Lithuanian parliament not all areas were included, could you provide a source to back that up? Also, as a side note: have you ever wondered why the Lithuanian generals who seized the area of Punskas and Suvalkai in 1920 never planned such a referendum? :) Halibutt 10:55, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
- Quite short note - there is comparement of those boundaries (electoral and Vilnius region) in one of maps I sent you. Or you haven't got the maps I scanned? If so, maybe I should send them to other address or something as it said to me that they went ok. And as I said previously in this discution, what matters the most for this article is that Lithuania always considered the mentioned territories to be part of Lithuania, undisputably; which means that current removal of any such claims is, from this standpoint, equal to loosing territories as it was in Latvian and Estonian cases. But, of course, you can add more information to the article, as long as it is fully factual, if you think it'd be NPOV that way.DeirYassin 11:36, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Busy Authors
There is a link in this article to another titled Abrene. The creative spelling conventions and innovations in the English language in the Abrene article smack a bit of this article. Can anyone think of a reason to keep the Abrene article? How many articles has this author written? JH. May 17, 2005
- Well, of course there is a reason - it is an existing town, smaller towns have their own articles. Taht article is stub at a given time it does not mean that the article should be deleted, only that it should be expanded. It would be nice if you in future would expand too short articles and correct mistakes if there are any, instead of asking them to be deleted. DeirYassin 05:58, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- While working on Population transfer in the Soviet Union I saw some hints that ethnic cleansing of Pytalovo region was related to crushing the Latvian guerilla. Do you have any info in this respect, and about Latvian resistance as a whole? Any Abrene "Forest Brothers"? Mikkalai 19:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds like propaganda. There was resistance everywhere in Lithuania for example, and there were repressions against people too; I am sure in Latvia there were resistance elsewhere too, probably even more elsewhere in more Latvian dominated areas. However it was Soviet policy to russianze the territories mentioned in this article, especially ones attached to Russia, and it was not on the first line of goals to russianise whole Baltic States, even though that was planned at first as some documents shows.DeirYassin 20:04, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
- While working on Population transfer in the Soviet Union I saw some hints that ethnic cleansing of Pytalovo region was related to crushing the Latvian guerilla. Do you have any info in this respect, and about Latvian resistance as a whole? Any Abrene "Forest Brothers"? Mikkalai 19:57, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Estonia is out
Yesterday Russia and Estonia finally signed a border treaty, which means that this article could be true only for one country: Latvia. Halibutt 18:04, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
The vaste thing
Hy. We all should remember the main purpose of the Wikipedia, that is to inform our readers, what is exactly going on, was going on and is supposed to be going on. Looking from this point, the article doesn't give necessary distinction:
- Real policy of the Baltic states is one thing.
- What do think people in Baltic states, Poland and Belarus is another thing (I don't say it isn't worth to mention in the wikipedia, but everyone should remember, that people in even one certain country very often have multiple opinions and formal majority of one common opinion doesn't remain stable for centuries.)
- And the description of historical events is the third different thing, even when these events imply some problems in the present.
We sink in formalities here. For example, Halibutt says, that The south part of Suvalkai region never depended to Lithuania after the Lublin union treaty. But one can say this about any city, town, place or region of Lithuania before 1918. This is an example of formal approach, which would be replied with other such formal approach, like that Lithuanians considered the territory of the Grand duchy of Lithuania (this way, including Suvalkai too) the basic, until the new treaties with respectable states were closed. Lithuanian politicians always insisted, that it isn't a problem of territorial claim to all the territory of the former GDL by the new Lithuania, but it's a problem of unsettled boarders. (That's why this page of history is rather finished than actual now, but let's look further into the problematic). Lithuania actually wanted righteous borders initially, but this problem was unsolvable without consent of Lithuanian Poles. When Lithuanians didn't attain this consent, the problem of righteous borders for Lithuania became unrealizable. When Lithuanian politicians understood it, they simply used this fact of unrighteous borders in complicated political struggle and no more. That's why many Lithuanian ideas on borders are naturally treated by other sides as claims.
The main psychological problem is, that Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Belarusians and Poles (and, perhaps, Finns) feel, that their borders weren't settled in the most suitable way of internecine negotiations, but that they were established by outer powers. The idea of pre-War League of Nations was more right in this sense than idea of Helsinki (so!) treaty, but the pre-War system didn't prevent later events, that were more dangerous than eventual problems of unideal borders. That's why, after 1990ties, all these countries were pushed, at this time by the international community, to accept all these unnatural borders of the Molotov -Ribbentrop.
Lithuanians and Poles perhaps could take their part of responsibility in it. For example, Lithuania got Klaipėda region and arranged the borders with Latvia according to procedures of the League of Nations. These borders persist to exist. We (i. e. Lithuanians and Poles) couldn't reach any agreement, and we have consequences now. But Latvia, Estonia, Belarus, and Poland in other cases, can't console themselves even by it. They simply were forced to accept the will of greater and more powerful states. (By the way, "occupied by Belarus" isn't NPOV in any case. Belarusians never occupied any country, and it should be “ruled by Belarusians” or “given to Belarus”).
But we'll never reach the borders, that were righteous in the 1918, and such ideas raised by Lithuanians and Belarusians are more from fictional literature than real. I think it's better to stop this article, and it would be action of good will, than to insist on actuality of these problems. Instead of it we can announce a request of an article about territorial problems of Latvia and Estonia (and, perhaps, Finland) with Russia. Linas Lituanus 09:26, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
- I told my opinion about it previously here and also during the VfD discution. I also said this suggestion that there might be an articles about teritorial changes or new territorial delimitations of certain regions of former USSR (Baltic States, Caucasus, Central Asia and Eastern Europe in particular, the arguementing why these regions and about similarities and differences is available there). My opinion is still that this is an existing issue with these changes of borders under Russian occupation. As for the way article is written, the way it mentions these things, it can be changed. I think official stance of states and historical reasons for these territories being detached are already more or less mentioned; opinion of people with time could be broke down into opinions of various political groups and parties in the countries; e.g. in Latvia opinions on this subject differs by parties; in Lithuania it is generally not seen as a subject by politicians. Also, as a sidenote, under common international law, genocide and ethnic cleanising should not change borders of states (that is the reason objecting for example creation of two states in Cyprus or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or creation of independent Transnistria and such), so what was righteous does not loose it's righteousness. DeirYassin 12:23, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
You simply may say that “Some people in Lithuania think, that true borders of Lithuanian should be different than they are now. They base their opinion on 1. - 2. - 3. - 4. - 5. Their opponents argue to it, that a)... b)... c)...” It would be all what is necessary in this case. And now, if somebody said, what profit anyone can get from all this fuss, it were interesting as much as all this argumentation above. The map is interesting too. But actually we see the only Baltic country with territorial questions with all its neighbours. If anyone tried to apply it in real politics such country would be called mad. It's clear, what answer this article will get from Latvians, Belarusians and Poles. The only solace in this case, that virtual policy is more capacious than real... Linas Lituanus 18:30, 2005 May 23 (UTC)
- Well, actually those are not territorial claims, I tried to remove the map but it was put back lol, maybe with current caption it is ok. Those are ethnographic regions of Lithuanian nation; the map is drawn by myself to put on Regions of Lithuania article, according to several other maps which couldn't have been put themselves due to copyright. The reason I don't like this map here too much is that it might give idea that all those territories are territories in question, while in fact article is not about that but rather about very clear and finite territories which were part of Baltic States butwere detached by Soviets. This area was a bit larger to Suwalki than ethnographic Lithuania, a bit smaller to the Byelorussian side, and it is not related to parts of Aukštaitija in Latvia or to Lithuania Minor now in Russia or Poland. I think I might draw a better map of Baltic States which would show the territories in question here when I'll have time. Latvians applies the claim in realpolitics BTW, and well, this is not about who thinks what, but rather about the actually existing detached territories. The opinions might be an additional information. The more information the better. Wikipedia should not be censored; I understand that there is common policy of silence in Europe regardting this question, e.g. by German or Finnish politicians, similarly by Lithuanian politicians; however Wikipedia is not a portal for political correctness or such, all views and all historical facts should be represented. DeirYassin 18:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
We are all Europeans now!
I must say I find these discussions so extremely old fashioned. Come on people, Poland and Lithuania are now part of the European Union. In about two years they will implement the Schengen treaty and border controls will disappear. In a few more years they will be using the Euro as the common currency. In about 5 years, I bet, one will drive from Warsaw to Vilnius and will not be able to tell where Poland ends and Lithuania begins. So, in a few years borders simply become irrelevant. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen. Furthermore, in the longer perspective the European Union has at least a chance to develop into a unified state, with the role of Polish and Lithuanian government reduced to, say, the role of individual state governments in the United States of America. The whole concept of nationality is likely to become much more fluid. Europeans will probably move from, say Warsaw to Vilnius with as little thought as Americans have when moving from Atlanta to Boston. So, can we not please leave this border issue behind us? It is not relevant anymore. Balcer 07:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
- What happens or happened in history is important. Maybe we should delete article about World War 1 too under this logic, because now we are all Europeans and not fighting anymore... Or information about conquests of Roman Empire, because it is also absolutely irrelevant now for today's politics. Also, please note that only Poland and Baltic States are part of EU, while Russia and Belarus aren't and I doubt they will be in near future, and four of five mentioned territories (all except for Suvalkai region; even parts of it are in Belarus however) are controlled by Russia or Belarus. So, whatever the future would be, the past still remains where it was, and present will become past; but history is an important thing to every encyclopedia.DeirYassin 08:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
- All the historical changes of borders should be better discussed in such articles as History of Lithuania, History of Latvia etc. Keeping a separate article of Disputed territories of Baltic States means that someone really wants to change existing borders (which is quite unrealistic). — Monedula 08:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
- Of course the point is not to get rid of history, but to change how we think about it. The First World War is a good example, actually. In the past it used to be thought of in old fashioned terms, with all the attention focusing of what one's nation did in it and whether it won or lost. But in modern thinking that war is almost universally thought of as a colossal mistake and a European tragedy. And that tragedy was caused directly by the 19th century idea of Europe as a continent divided into nations with rigid borders and totally homegeneous cultures engaged in a Darwinian zero sum struggle with each other. It's hard to believe now, but there were actually many people who liked that idea of Europe and thought this was exactly the way things should be!
- The whole drive for European integration after 1945 comes from the final realization that it is fundamentally wrong to have a Europe divided into states competing with each other, mainly by fighting for territory in the name of securing one's "lebensraum", "natural homeland", "ethnic territory" , "economic space", "historical lands" or whatever.
- So, my main wish would be that this article reflect some of this change in thinking about Europe and its member countries, which I hope the editors here do share. The article as it is now is all about complaining where the borders were. Instead, it should express some sadness that there were borders in the first place, and happiness that they are finally going away. Balcer 08:51, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Balcer, you are only one of many operating here polish (you are Polish, not polish), which mind is free of bestial nationalistic chauvinism. Unfortunately most of your countrymen can't look to the past sane, this mean that they can't look sane to present and future as well. And we have to speak about history which was in reality, not in panslavistic (sarmatic) dreams. History always remain history. Without understanding of history we can't understand present and future. Agree with DeirYassin. 85.206.194.114 09:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)