Grants talk:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal: Difference between revisions
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{{Grant_discussion_status/
=== GAC members who support this request ===
#
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=== GAC members who oppose this request ===
#See below. [[User:MADe|MADe]] ([[User talk:MADe|talk]]) 20:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
=== GAC members who abstain from voting/comment ===
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For personal interest, I see the three first members have a lot of mountaineering experience but no wiki experiencE. The Wikipedians at the other hand have only a Basic Rock Climbing Course. How did you link up, what is the link between the two groups? [[User:MADe|MADe]] ([[User talk:MADe|talk]]) 17:40, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
:since my earlier comments, the organisers did not reply to my comments. However, they added [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants%3APEG%2FSujay25%2FWikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal&type=revision&diff=13507612&oldid=13286925 a number of outreach events]. I
::Hi MADe,
::Very sorry for the delay in reply.
::*Regarding the promotional activities we have a plan to organize a press meet after the completion of the trek.
::In this press meet we are expecting quite a few journalists and media personnel for coverage.
::We will officially announce the date and time of a photographic slideshow event. Media will be publicizing this event to common people as well as mountaineers and trekkers.
::In this slideshow event the major focus will be to display the photographs along with the narration of the experience from the team. Along with the photographs there will be a brief introduction to Wikipedia and its sister projects. Regarding this slideshow we are collaborating with a mountaineering organization. As the slideshow event will be viewed by the people from different interest groups they may join as new user. These "New User"s will be the resource for the next Workshops and edit-a-thons.
::These workshops and edit-a-thons will be conducted by the core group and the fellow Wikipedians.
::The major focus on these workshops and edit-a-thons will be to create or expand the articles and add media files to commons related to Wikipedia treks Kalindi khal.
::By continuous mentoring and interactions these new users will be able to contribute into different projects easily.
::*We are in process of developing a Facebook and a twitter page for this event.--[[User:Sujay25|Sujay25]] ([[User talk:Sujay25|talk]]) 22:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
==Community comments==
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* I second the questions being raised here - can the team include 1) a list of articles they have researched and improved in preparation for this expedition 2) a tentative list of the phenomena and artefacts that they expect to document and the associated Wikipedia articles 3) a list of reliable sources that they have collated so as to be able to write any encylopaedic content. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 06:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
==== Some queries about the planning and basis of the trek ====
* To add to what has been said / asked above - I have the following queries
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--[[User:Ramwik|Ramwik]] ([[User talk:Ramwik|talk]]) 05:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
====Review of Proposed Content Development and other queries====
--[[User:Ramwik|Ramwik]] ([[User talk:Ramwik|talk]]) 18:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi
Am unsure who has a right to say something here. Am a donor, of sorts to wikipedia, a user, and by way of disclosure am a trekker, an outdoor educator, a forester, a birder and general naturalist, I have been on the Kalindi route - starting from Mana (badrinath) and via the pass ending up in Gangotri. Fact being we continued trekking onwards and through Himachal all the way to Khardungla Pass (Ladakh).
Some time back had asked questions (just above) and they have been left unanswered, maybe since I am neither on any Wikipedia board or committee. so does the right to have questions / queries answered only lie with those who may or may not provide the funds. Having said all this my specific queries are below (apart from the unanswered ones posted earlier)
1. Will there be a contingent of support porters, if so how many and who are they. What specific provisions of gear are being made for them. Will they be insured ? In essence what people and mountaineering ethical guidelines would the group be adhering to.
2. There is a link to [[Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal/Proposed_Content_development|Proposed Content Development]] And some references, has any one gone through this. What is the basis for this listing.
For example - Capra ibex or Alpine Ibex is mentioned as one of the mammals proposed for documentation. The route to Kalindi is no where near the Alpine Ibex's range and as such the only useful information that will be added is "absent from Kalindi"
Similarly what is the basis for the bird list. With the exception of the Alpine Chough all the others are pheasants. It would be nice to have a clarification as to what altitude ranges are these Galliformes expected to be at and for how much of the proposed route does their habitat exist and how much time will the group be spending in such habitat.
Gaumukh is at about 4200 meters above sea level by which altitude many of the pheasant way out of range. Further the list does not mention what it may actually possible to see - Like the redstarts, pipits, rosefinches, snowfinches, possible raptors, and other Corvids.
While on birds it would be interesting to know the basis for including the Tibetan Snowcock instead of the Himalayan Snowcock.
*On Plants*
Then there is Pinus_armandii / Chinese Pine - why does this figure in the list of proposed content development, [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_armandii|this wikipedia page]] clearly again indicates this is not to be found in the Himalaya, let alone India Himalaya. This is a [http://www.conifers.org/pi/pi/arm/04.gif distribution map] of this plant
These are just examples and not a detailed review of each proposed item of content, they are however indicative of the lack of preparedness and background research by the group.
Shouldn't the basis for such "proposed documentation have been either very specific species with specific agenda's and with significant background knowledge / research for each such specific item or very generic where everything feasible is spotted, identified and documented again on the basis of some sound scientific methods. It would also have been nice to have seen background research specific to this region.
There is in existence a Gangotri National Park, it is also designated an Important Bird Area, both are on the basis of significant and valuable wildlife research and in turn for region specific natural history research.
This was asked earlier and left unanswered - with the tough route conditions and the time it takes to actually negotiate the glacier and the pass how much time is the group going to spend on such natural history documentation. What scientifically acceptable methods (atleast within Wikipedia's guidelines) are to be used. This methodology would be of interest to many people who spend some amount of their time investigating the higher altitudes.
Ram
===Who is Wikipedia Treks Mountain?===
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* Member X claims to belong to a very closed religious faith about which Wikipedia has no information or is claimed to have biased information. X demonstrates the ability to work where no-one else would be allowed and would like to be funded to conduct video interviews and other forms of documentation.
Is this within the scope of WMIN/WMF?
:Hi [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]]. We appreciate your constructive contributions to the discussion about this grant request. However, the majority of the comments in the section above are related to the policies and processes of the Wikimedia India chapter. We encourage you to move these comments to a more appropriate forum, such as the Wikimedia India mailing list or wiki. For comments on the grants process more generally you can post to the [[Grants_talk:PEG|PEG discussion page]]. We have just closed our [[Grants:IdeaLab/Reimagining_WMF_grants/Consultation|community consultation on the grants programs]], but if you have additional feedback, please feel free to email us directly at grants"at"wikimedia.org. Please do review the [[Grants:Friendly_space_expectations|Grants Friendly Space Expectations]] for more guidance on how to most effectively participate in grants discussions. Thanks, [[User:AWang (WMF)|Alex Wang (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AWang (WMF)|talk]]) 17:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
::{{ping|AWang (WMF)}} Thank you for the comments. I can only note that the reason for raising process requirements is because the proposal has to be given extra weightage as it is being endorsed by no less than a national Chapter and it would have helped to hear the explicit consultation process behind the endorsement. I am sorry if this was an inappropriate forum to request it. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 04:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
:::I am also somewhat surprised that this form of paid content contribution by a self-selected team is supported but on the other hand something like [[Grants_talk:IEG/Islam_in_Andhra_Pradesh]] has basic objections to paid content development rased by [[User:Siko_(WMF)]]. This project would have had mine and a lot others wholehearted supporting it if the model originally proposed by [[User:Boddhisatwa]] of Wiki Treks Mountains had been followed, where groups of interested volunteers meetup in a suitable locations close to them and upload images and have funds only for prizes for the best contributions. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 04:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
==WMF comments==
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:::Thanks [[User:AWang (WMF)|Alex]] for your valuable suggestions. We have modified our measure of success part in our proposal. We have estimated this realistically to our strength and time frame. Since this is the pilot project the actual figures may vary. We have already started talking with WMIN regarding the suggestions from [[User:DerekvG|DerekvG]].--[[User:Sujay25|Sujay25]] ([[User talk:Sujay25|talk]]) 21:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
==Notes on approval==
Hi [[User:Sujay25|Sujay25]] and [[User:Schwiki|Schwiki]]. Thank you for your thorough and prompt responses to questions from the GAC and community. We appreciate all the feedback received on the proposal from the GAC/community/WMIN and the time invested in thinking about the impact of the project both here on the discussion page and on the Wikimedia India mailing list.
While we understand the concerns raised by community members above, we do feel that the project is worth funding as an experiment. The team is lead by local, experienced Wikimedians with a track record for organizing events and has a good amount of support from the community. We have funded numerous photoexpeditions in the past in many different communities and have found them to be a successful way to both generate quality content and cover content gaps. We have encouraged all groups, including this organizing team, to focus on engaging the community through editathons, workshops, and a photo contest in order to integrate the new content into articles after the expedition. These events will both target content experts (mountaineers) to hopefully get them interested and knowledgeable about how to contribute to the Wikimedia projects, as well as experienced Wikimedians who can take advantage of the new content and begin to integrate it into articles. From our perspective, this is the most important aspect of the project -- community engagement and integration of high quality and new content. We will be excited to see what the team is able to deliver and if this type of project can and should be repeated in the future. Cheers, [[User:AWang (WMF)|Alex Wang (WMF)]] ([[User talk:AWang (WMF)|talk]]) 17:11, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
*Delightful and good luck to the grant recipients. May other Wikipedians in India follow this lead and likewise make requests of this sort and other sorts. More funds and grants for projects in India, please! [[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 18:00, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
*Thank you for your continued support to the Indian community!! on behalf of WMIN -- [[User:Yohannvt|Yohannvt]] ([[User talk:Yohannvt|talk]]) 18:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
*Congratulations to the team. My only suggestion at this point is that you do not actually trek for the sake of reaching any summits or destinations in time but go slow and look around carefully, document as much as you can. Remember that camera batteries discharge rapidly in cold weather. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 04:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
== Results ==
{{ping|MADe}} {{ping|Bluerasberry}} {{ping|Sujay25}} {{ping|User:Schwiki }}
There was rapid approval of this project without sufficient process as this was intended to meet deadlines but are the results of this project forthcoming? According to the schedule the main visit nearly about a month ago - we are all looking forward to see a stream of images. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 07:11, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
== Another workshop in the region ==
Those who have been interested in this project may find this [[Himalayan_workshop]] of interest. It is open to participation. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 04:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
== Sharing experience of my first Wikipedia project ==
Very recently I have come to know from the writings of some Wikipedians in Bn-Wiki mailing list that some queries have arises regarding Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal 2015<ref>{{cite web|url=https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal/Team|title=The Team}}</ref>; of which Reports, Financial report and proposed activities have no so far been done etc been submitted. Hence, being a very new and novice member of the then Kalindi khal team, I wish to share my experiences of the said expedition.
I was then a just beginner and novice Wikipedia, having no idea about the regulations and procedure of Wiki activities related to any wiki event. [[User:Schwiki|Santanu Chandra]] and [[User:Sujay25|Sujay Chandra]] da who were previously known to me because of mountaineering activities, registered me to Wikipedia and after a few days they proposed me to go to Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal 2015. I was too happy to get such a chance to take part in a Wiki project at my Wiki-age of 2 months. Being a newcomer, I followed every word of the senior wikipedian dadas.
When I asked them for the expenditure of mine, they informed me that a grant of Wikipedia will come afterwards to support the huge total expenditure of the 9 member project. They instructed me to give Rs 25,000/- for a part of my own expenditure and told that the rest of my expenditure shall be adjusted from the Wiki grant to this effect. This made me happy to learn that some part of my expenditure shall be borne by Wikipedia and I submitted my Rs 25,000/- to [[User:Schwiki|Santanu Chandra]] and [[User:Sujay25|Sujay Chandra]] da in two parts. I have zero idea about the pros and cons regarding a wiki grant and above all, when the wiki grant for the kalindi khal expedition was done, I was not at all a Wikipedian; I came to Wikipedia world later.
We stared for Kalindi khal expedition from Kolkata on 11th Sept’2015, a nine member team. Trek began from Gongotri on 16th Sept 2016. After reaching Bhujbasa [[User:Sujay25|Sujay Chandra]] da had some physical ailments and he started back for kolkata on 18th Sept'2016. From Vasuki Taal [[User:Schwiki|Santanu Chandra]], Dibyendu nandi, Prosenjit Dutta and I started back for Haridwar ( then for Kolkata) on 20th Sept 2016 and the rest 4 members moved towards Kalindi Khal. While travelling back to Kolkata news came in train that the 4 members have successfully completed the Kalindi khal expedition and on their way to Mana village. It brought a grand joy to me that the wiki expedition became a success.
Some day later, [[User:Schwiki|Santanu Chandra]] da informed me that wiki grant had come in hand and the rest of my expenditure (except 25,000/- I had given earlier) was adjusted from the grant amount and so I needed not pay anything more for my expenditure. Then I was directed to prepare a report of the expedition programme which I made ready and submitted<ref>{{cite web|url=https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal/Report|title=The Report}}</ref>. But having no idea of writing a wiki event report, unfortunately my report becomes a travel account. Later I was asked to submit a few articles<ref>{{cite web|url=https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal/Proposed_Content_development|title=The Proposed Content}}</ref> and photo uploading which also I did. Hence, I asked the dadas what more things I would have to do regarding the project and was told by them that they will later inform me about further activities when necessity arose.
Hence, on reading the mailing list and requisite references, I am astonished and bit more confused to learn that in spite of the passage of one no requisite reports, proposed activities etc were not submitted/done. More over I am really spell bound to learn from the mailing list of Bn-wikipedia that there was a grant of Rs. 51,880/- against my name for my expenditure of the expedition. Thus, as the Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal 2015 project is on questions in mailing list, being a team member I have thoroughly shared my full knowledge and experiences about the said Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal 2015.
Thank you --[[User:Atudu|Atudu]] ([[User talk:Atudu|talk]]) 16:58, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
===Reply to Atudu===
{{ping|Atudu}} I feel quite ashamed that some community members can misuse public funds in such a way and also got money from you. I would WMF to look further into this case and take strict action. I would also like the community to make sure we don't endorse such big projects without seeing any pilot projects from the grantees. Such cases are not good for the movement.--[[User:Satdeep Gill|Satdeep Gill]] ([[User talk:Satdeep Gill|talk]]) 05:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
:{{u|Atudu}}, thanks for sharing your experience about Wikipedia Treks Kalindi Khal. I came across this on facebook where an editor requested a community input. I advised him to share this on the Wikimedia-I list if need be, knowing fully well that a social media like facebook is not the appropriate venue to request community input and I understand that doing that on facebook may somewhat be considered as outing the concerned users. However, having glance through your comments above and the grant in question, I have to agree there is an issue that needs to be addressed. I do not see a serious problem, anyway. I plan to do a through review of the entire scenario this week and will surely leave a useful comments here. {{u|NahidSultan}} may want to comment on this. All the best. [[User:Wikicology|Wikicology]] ([[User talk:Wikicology|talk]]) 08:35, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
::{{u|Atudu}}, Thanks dear for sharing your experience with other wikimedians. I got to know about this from a fellow wikimedian. As the allegations have no been proved yet, I'd keep my comments reserved on this one. But the issue definitely needs intervention from WMF's side and hopefully the matter will be resolved soon. I know your beginning is not an ideal one but I hope your wiki journey will be great. All the best --[[User:Dr. Manavpreet Kaur|Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]] ([[User talk:Dr. Manavpreet Kaur|talk]]) 17:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
=== References ===
{{reflist}}
== Grant report overdue ==
Hi [[User:Sujay25|Sujay25]], this grant ended in February 2016, and a grant report should have been submitted by the end of April 2016. Please follow the instructions on [[Grants:PEG/Submit_report/Grant|this page]] to create and submit a report for this grant, and to submit documentation of expenses. It sounds like there has been some confusion about the amount of money that each participant contributed to the trek, so in your report we would like to see documentation of how much each person paid and whether they were reimbursed using grant funds. Please let us know if you have any questions. --[[User:KHarold (WMF)|KHarold (WMF)]] ([[User talk:KHarold (WMF)|talk]]) 15:44, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
:Dear [[User:KHarold (WMF)|KHarold (WMF)]], as per your instructions we are preparing a [[Grants:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal/Report|report]] for this project. I would like to know, i) How can I send the actual bills to WMF? ii) Regarding our co-wikimedian's contribution of INR 25,000/-, INR 15,000/- was spent in the trek as like other Wikipedians personal contribution. Approximately INR 10,000/- was spent in her personal hiking equipments including tent, apparel and footwear. How can I incorporate this expenditure in the report? Thank you.--[[User:Sujay25|Sujay25]] ([[User talk:Sujay25|talk]]) 08:48, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
== Detailed split up of my money given for Kalindi Khal Trek 2015 ==
{{ping|KHarold (WMF)|AWang (WMF)}}I have some delay in commenting regarding the remarks of Sujay Chandra as I was in Jayanti, Buxa Tiger Reserve busy with the field work of my [[Wiki Loves Butterfly]] project.
I am truly surprised and baffled to read the write up of Sujay Chandra regarding the point of my giving them Rs 15000/- for the trek; as he has mentioned. Strangely enough, I cannot understand the head and tail of his motto in saying such words when they themselves have taken Rs 30000/- from me in 4 parts from which they have brought Apparel ( 2 half pants<ref>{{cite web|title=''YOGA WOMEN'S ORGANIC COTTON SHORTS - BLACK/PURPLE''|url=http://www.decathlon.in/p/8366663_yoga-women-s-organic-cotton-shorts-black-purple.html#/3132-909-xs}}</ref> and 2 t.shirts) and Footwear (Quechua Forclaz 100)<ref>{{cite web|title=''FORCLAZ 100 HIGH MEN HIKING SHOES BROWN/RED''|url=http://www.decathlon.in/p/8287390_quechua-forclaz-100-men-s-high-waterproof-hiking-shoes-brown.html?reviews_note=2&utm_medium=paidsearch&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=HikingShoes_PLA_Sok&utm_content=product_listing&gclid=CjwKEAiA6YDBBRDwtpTQnYzx5lASJAC57ObM40mi-rrMpAFtrsAod2x5sBImuMnLIRdOmp3lb1fjXhoCttPw_wcB#/4914-272-uk_5_5_eu_39}}</ref> (but no tent) for me from Decathlon<ref>{{cite web|title=''Decathlon''|url=http://www.decathlon.in/}}</ref>. From that context I mentioned earlier that I had given him Rs.25000/- for my expenditure in the trek.Now I wish to highlight the detailed split up of my given money to Santanu Chandra and Sujay Chandra.
{| class="sortable wikitable"
|-
! Date !! Place !! Amount !! Purpose
|-
| 21st August 2015|| Kolkata || Rs. 15000/- || Trek Expenditure
|-
| 21st August 2015|| Kolkata || Rs. 5000/- || Buying Apparel and Footwear
|-
| 14th September 2015 || Uttarkashi || Rs. 9000/- || Trek Expenditure
|-
| !8th September 2015 || Bhujbasa || Rs. 1000/- || Supplying funds to Sujay Chandra for his journey back expenditure
|-
|}
Moreover, Sujay Chandra has mentioned in his write up that '''Approximately INR 10,000/- was spent in her personal hiking equipments including tent, apparel and footwear'''. But surprisingly no tent was bought for as my personal hiking and the 3men tent was bought for the team members (distinctly and defiantly not for me). So I am baffled to read the said write up that how can a whole 3 men tent bought for the Kalindi Khal Expedition Team is included in my personal hiking. Moreover, the said tent in question belongs to them as usual and I have just taken part in using the tent along with my team mates during the days of the trek only. That’s what all I have to say. Thank you --[[User:Atudu|Atudu]] ([[User talk:Atudu|talk]]) 07:30, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
=== References ===
{{reflist}}[https://www.ringmastersports.com/ Ringmaster Sports]
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