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::::::::::The markup has been fixed as I had the destination wrong, and we can assume that from now on archiving will be automatic. Thanks ObserverNY for the minor barnstar. Also, some of you may have seen on my talkpage that I'm needed to copyedit another article, so I'll be gone from here for some time. Not emotionally involved, simply trying to get things set up to leave. If I'm needed please leave me a message. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 16:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Nice job, TK! We all really appreciate it, and the Minor Barnstar from ObserverNY was a great idea and certainly well-deserved (many times over, in fact)! Thanks also to [[user:xeno|<
== Decapitalization ==
Line 743:
Please make up your minds what is going to be the accepted style of capitalization. Once again, I would prefer that we use ''common usage'' and not IB's inconsistent style. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 18:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Pilot Courses ==
I question the inclusion of alleged "pilot" IB courses (refs. 31 & <s>34</s>35) which can only be verified via proprietary material. As a reader, I have no way of checking if this information is accurate. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 11:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:http://www.govhs.org/vhsweb/Press.nsf/By+Date/B9F58F3781DD64FB862572AB0044263D?OpenDocument
:http://www.govhs.org/Pages/Academics-IB
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
That is not what I was referring to. This is what I was referring to:
* Group 6: The arts....'''The pilot course for Dance in SL or HL is offered at schools participating in the pilot program.[31]'''...Text and Performance SL (Groups 1 and 6), '''which is currently a pilot course.[35]'''
Neither of the above courses are listed in LaMome's links. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I have removed all of the "pilot" course references in the Group subject section as these statements are not verifiable.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY, first, there's nothing wrong with using the documents we've already listed as citations for those courses. Second, I have additional citations for each course. So I'm going to go ahead and revert those edits and include the new references. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 13:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Cinchbug - I'd like to see your references please, Cinchbug. Because when I wanted to use the IB Handbook of Procedures (with a readable link) as a reference for something related to Special Needs, I was forbidden from doing so because it was an IB propietary item. Therefore, IB "draft" guides for something that isn't offered globally or publicly do not constitute verifiable sources either. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Cinchbug - your citations have big red errors ;-) I respectfully suggest that if you want to include these "pilot" courses that are not yet developed, not described and not officially offered globally to all IB schools, that a reference to them be placed in the section with the "pilot" online programme instead of inserted in the Subject Groups. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::ObserverNY, the new references I included are all freely available on the web, as you can see in the article. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 13:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Oops, apparently not, since there is some sort of error in my citation. I'll go in and fix the errors so that you can see the sources. Sorry 'bout that! • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 13:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Before you do, please read my suggestion above. I am not opposed to including verifiable information, however the Subject Group should reflect actual courses available to all IB schools. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::Okay, the citatons seem to be working now. I didn't see your suggestion until now, but I don't have any particular objection to it. But before we move the pilot courses to that section (which I suppose would then have to be renamed), what does everyone else think? Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 13:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:The pilot courses ''are'' actual courses available to all IB schools. They just need to apply to offer them. I am opposed to moving them to the section with online courses, unless that section is moved up to immediately follow the subjects section.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::Too late. Change was already made, without consensus. I propose we move the core requirements to before the subjects, followed by online courses. Any objections? Ok, then...
::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::So far ObserverNY has engaged in 2 acts of disruptive editing-first, by deleting the pilot courses and then by moving them--both without any input from other editors.
:::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Oh please, spare us. I posted the topic for discussion. You came in and provided two irrelevant links. Cinchbug agreed with the more proper placement of "pilot" courses in the appropriately re-named ''Participation, online and pilot courses'' section. You asked to move it up. I did. I properly transferred all of the verifiable references Cinchbug provided and inserted them in the new section. Take a chill pill. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I have very little time at the moment and haven't had the chance to evaluate this, but I see that Cinchbug asked for input at 13:32 and it seems that the changes were made by 13:43. This is much too fast! If these courses are not exclusive to the pilot online courses then, in my view, they shouldn't go in that section. I'd recommend keeping them where Cinchbug had them until people have had the opportunity to review the sections and text. I won't have time to do so until much later. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 14:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::Truthkeeper - Since Cinchbug provided verifiable references and also specifically stated he has "no particular objection" to re-naming the Participation section and yes, I have other things to do with my life as well, I made the changes. I made good faith, accurate, informative edits. From the IB information, all it says is they are "pilot courses" and they have been separately listed from the "online" pilot program in the new section. LaMome arbitrarily removed the Participation statement without ANY discussion and shoved it into Application and Authorization. I moved that section to a more appropriate placement. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY - "I question the inclusion of alleged "pilot" IB courses (refs. 31 & 3435) which can only be verified via proprietary material. As a reader, I have no way of checking if this information is accurate."
:: Just because you have no way of checking if the information is accurate does not mean that others do not. I'm not aware of any WP policy that states that any single individual must have access to a document in order to verify it and allow it in WP. If others can check it that should be enough surely? --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 08:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::According to [[WP:Verifiability]] - ''"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether '''readers''' are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."'' [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Thanks ObserverNY. I have read that. However, it doesn't state that all readers should be able to verify every statement all of the time. There are several readers who have access to the material and can verify it. Just like any information if you don't have the book, magazine, DVD, CD etc than you have to go and get it if you want to check the information. Sometimes this is simply difficult and we have to rely on good faith of the people concerned surely? The IB guides are fully referenced as well (or so I have seen) so this shouldn't be a problem. As regards my comment below about ESS, the UWC statement about Ecosystems and Societies is unverified. In fact it is not even verified by the source of the information - the IB (their store has the ESS guide currently for sale). This is both true and verifyable (they are not necessarily mutually exclusive). --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 13:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:Please locate the IB Guides under [[WP:Book sources]] and I will be happy to accept them as verifiable references. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Hold up a second! Have I missed something here? Printed material has to have an ISBN number to be permissible as a WP source?
I don't believe so. I don't seem to have seen that.
A book publisher doesn't have to supply an ISBN number. The [[Principia_Mathematica_Philosophiae_Naturalis|Principia]] has no ISBN number. It seems to be a very acceptable source though.
With respect, it's not whether '''you''' personally accept the source isn't it whether it fits the criteria for inclusion by WP surely? --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 15:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
== Truce ==
All right, let me do this a bit more formally. I propose that everyone agree to a [[WP:TRUCE|truce]], without any additional pre-conditions, and agree to genuinely strive to do several things:
*1. Be civil to each other.
*2. With the exception of minor edits for spelling, punctuation, and the like, propose and discuss changes to the article on the Talk page before actually making the changes.
*3. Slow down the pace of editing--rapid-fire editing seems to have inevitably led to nastiness around here.
If you agree to try to do this, then please sign below. It is intended that this all be done in [[WP:AGF|good faith]].
• [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 18:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:I'll agree to a truce on these terms. Thank you CB & TK for being peacemakers.
:Cheers![[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 19:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::Agreed to above and thanks to Cinchbug. Assuming that adding page numbers constitutes minor edits? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 20:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::No resolution - please see discussion on Cinchpage's talk. Will compromise if LaMome strikes or removes '''fraudulent''' comment from "Certificate Programme" section above. Then I agree to the above terms. Without an honest effort by LaMome to show good faith by removing that which has severely offended a fellow editor, I cannot believe that she is agreeing to this truce in good faith. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::What is this fradulent comment that has offended you so terribly? Can you point it out to me? — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 21:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::HelloAnnyong, we're trying to iron this out at [[User_talk:CinchBug#Truce|my Talk page]], if you'd care to join us. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 21:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::...i guess. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 21:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I apologized, TWICE, (this makes THREE times) to LaMome for [[WP:Outing]]. She refuses to apologize, as proposed by Cinchbug, for calling me/my editing '''fraudulent'''. No truce. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Thank you very much for trying, Cinchbug, TK and HelloAnnyong. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:...okay then. I'm going to take my leave of this article yet again. If you guys need more help, feel free to send me a message on my talk page. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 02:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
::Apology accepted. I sincerely apologize for upsetting you if you perceived what I said as calling you fraudulent.
::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 02:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks to CB, TK and HA for establishing that my edits were not fraudulent. Apology accepted. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== "To do" list ==
:I propose the following changes to the article:
:1. This sentence--''Currently, in order to participate in the IBDP students must attend an IB World School''-- should be incorporated into the lead paragraph and the word "participation" removed from the "application and authorization" section.
:2. The pilot course, formerly known as "ecosystems and societies" is called "environmental systems and societies" and is no longer a pilot course, according to [http://www.ibo.org/ibna/ibnarecognition/diplomaprogrammeinformation/documents/2008DPleaflet.pdf this source]
:3. The pilot courses and the school-based syllabi should be put back into the subjects section as listed [http://www.ibo.org/ibna/ibnarecognition/diplomaprogrammeinformation/documents/2008DPleaflet.pdf in this source]
:I won't make any of those changes until all the editors have weighed in here.
:I suggest that other editors write their proposals in this section and as they are agreed upon and completed, we can strike through as we go, much like a "to do."
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Alrighty then. So am I the only one who is unable to access www.ibo.org this morning? You know, there's an old saying, "I'm not paranoid, they really ARE out to get me". This is the message I receive: '''"Operation failed on the data source named ibo4.
Reason of failure "[Macromedia][Oracle JDBC Driver]Error establishing socket. Connection refused"'''
I'm pretty sure that means IBO blocked my IP from its main public website. Please let me know if anyone else is having this problem. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:First, I applaud ObserverNY and La mome for settling their differences. Well done.
:Regarding the IB website, I'm also getting an error. At first it was the same error ObserverNY describes, but now MSIE simply doesn't display the page. Given that there's a note on the OCC main page (before logging in) that says that the OCC is scheduled to be down for maintenance on 23 August (tomorrow) and that I've occassionally run into the same kind of temporary problem at a variety of websites, it seems most likely to me that the main IB website is also down, quite possibly for maintenance. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 14:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
::Also, I concur with La mome's suggestions. I tend to agree that the pilot courses are probably best-placed in the Subject Groups section, although, as pilot courses, the notion that they share characteristics with the pilot online Diploma Programme also has merit. I'd be interested in hearing some other ideas about this. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 15:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
:::To alleviate my paranoia, I had a friend check the IBO site and it appears their server is completely down. I recommend that no edits, other than minor spelling or capitalization fixes, be performed until IBO's site is up and running as it serves as the vast majority of citations for this article.
:::Unlike AP, IB does not provide any sort of online list of its allegedly internationally standardized courses/syllabi. This poses a dilemma when it comes to differentiating what currently constitutes IB courses/exams which are recognized for college credit by universities, and those which are not. I would venture to guess that there is not a university in the world that would currently award anything other than elective credit for either a school-based syllabi IB course OR a "pilot" IB course/exam. We don't even know if actual exams have been developed yet for these "pilot courses". The "online pilot diploma programme" is not currently in effect, there are only 3 "pilot" student courses and it is currently impossible to earn an IB Diploma through this method. Merely slapping the IB label on either of these types of courses does not give them any credibility in terms of rigor. Therefore I am very much opposed to sticking any sort of "pilot" courses into the Subject Group section. When they become officially recognized courses, then they should be added, but not until then.
:::As to the "leaflet" sources in LaMome's post, I have a couple of questions/observations: 1)what site is this .pdf being pulled from if ibo.org is down? 2) The documents are from 2008 3) All of the course names are in lower case 4) the UWC source I had previously linked but which was removed is from 2009 and lists the course as "ecosystems and societies". http://www.uwc.org/what_we_do/news/see_all_news/marine_science_syllabus.aspx ''“When the IB decided to replace Environmental Systems with the transdisciplinary course Ecosystems and Societies, I saw this as an opportunity to design an SBS called Marine Science,” explains teacher Laura Verhegge, who developed the course.'' Therefore, I believe this information is more up to date and correct. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::P.S - Note that the UWC capitalizes the course name Ecosystems and Societies. This is something we can work on until ibo.org is back online and try and reach agreement on. If ''Pointillist'' is still around, I would be interested in some feedback as I still maintain that it should be Theory of Knowledge. ;-) [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY - ""Operation failed on the data source named ibo4. Reason of failure "[Macromedia][Oracle JDBC Driver]Error establishing socket. Connection refused" I'm pretty sure that means IBO blocked my IP from its main public website."
::It's an automatic response from a server when data on that server is not being accessed properly. This is purely an internal IBO issue with their IT systems and will affect all users.
::Note: Neither Ecosystems and Societies nor Environmental Systems exist and more. It's Environmental Systems and Societies. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 18:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Since this is not a forum for general discussion of IB Diploma Programme, I will keep my post brief and suggest that others do the same. Once the ibo.org site is back up, you'll see that there are indeed assessments for the pilot courses, such as dance and film and the results are included in the IB data reports. As Candorwien and I have explained, the Environmental Systems course is being phased out and replaced with Environmental systems and societies, which was called "Ecosystems and societies" in the early phases of the pilot. Speculation on college credit, course credibility and rigor of pilot courses and school-based syllabi without providing sources is not relevant to the discussion as it does not address the improvement of the IBDP article, which is the purpose of this talk page.
:::The "leaflet" is from ibo.org--specifically ibna--and is already listed in our sources. It is provided to colleges/universities in North America. The UWC link quotes a teacher referring to the new course (Environmental systems and societies) under the old name (Ecosystems and societies).
:::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 21:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
::::The UWC link clearly quotes a teacher referring to: '''“When the IB decided to replace Environmental Systems with the transdisciplinary course Ecosystems and Societies..."''' I really don't see how that can be misinterpreted. If Candy or LaMome can provide a 2009 source that identifies the course as ''Environmental systems and societies'' then of course we should use that. Until then, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
::::''Speculation on college credit, course credibility and rigor of pilot courses and school-based syllabi without providing sources is not relevant to the discussion as it does not address the improvement of the IBDP article, which is the purpose of this talk page.'' - That is your ''opinion'' to which you are entitled. However, my "speculation" was providing a reason as to why '''like items''' should be grouped together within the article for the purpose of improvement, ie: Pilot online programme & Pilot courses vs. already recognized IB courses.
::::Please address the capitalization issue. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::The IB source calls it Environmental systems and societies. It is an IB course. This is the same as the whole "IB Certificate program" issue. Schools call ''their'' courses and ''their'' programs whatever they like. The pilot courses and the online Diploma Programme pilot are not like items. The courses offered online are not pilot courses, they are mainstream IB courses (ITGS, Economics, to name 2 that I remember). Your speculation is your opinion, to which you are also entitled, however we are not adding information to an encylcopedia based on opinions and speculation.
:::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 23:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::The IB source which you provided, is a year older than the UWC source. As I said earlier, we will simply have to wait until IBO gets its website back online to verify what IB currently calls this course. If the IBO website makes no reference to the course, then from an encyclopaedic standpoint, it seems to me the most recent source would be the one to be used.
:::::::A "pilot program" is defined as an "activity planned as a test or trial" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pilot%20program By IB applying the "pilot" label to some courses and its online programme, IB automatically places them into the same '''trial''' category. They are not '''tried and true''' items and therefore should be grouped together. There is no guarantee that either the online programme or any of the pilot courses won't be discontinued next year. Just like a pilot pharmaceutical that is "test marketed" to a select group of volunteers, these "products" are not FDA approved and offered to the general public. People may develop severe reactions and the drug may be pulled. Fortunately, IB doesn't have life or death implications so the analogy is not the most apt, but if there is little interest, or if there are particularly bad test results from the pilot courses, IB may have to go back to the drawing board and re-design its "pilots". So if you want to refer to them in the article, by all means, but it should be in its own section. It is interesting information. As to your contention that schools call their courses whatever they want and this is just like the Certificate Program issue, I beg to differ. The UWC source specifically states '''When the IB decided to replace''', not "when we at UWC decided to call it something else". [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 23:53, 22 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY - "The IB source which you provided, is a year older than the UWC source." The age of a source doesn't matter in this respect. Surely, the issue is about whether it is correct? Whether or not a UWC created Environmental Systems (now Ecosystems and Societies) is irrelevant to the fact that there is an external course run by the IB called Environmental Systems and Societies (ESS) which exists now. The other courses have been superseded. I suspect the UWC website is a tad out-of-date in this respect which may be explained by the fact that the very final Ecosystems and Societies examination was only in May 2009. The first ESS examinations will be in May 2010. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 12:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Please see my response to your question in the "Pilot Courses" section as it relates to [[WP:Verifiability]]. Thank you.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::[http://www.dwight.edu/academics/dp/EnvsysSoc.pdf Environmental systems and societies] --IB Guide from the Dwight school.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::[http://www.oup.com/oxed/international/ibdiploma/geography/ Oxford course companion for env. sys. & soc.]
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::: Re: Dwight school link - "All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, without the prior written permission of the IB, or as expressly permitted by law or by the IB’s own rules and policy. See http://www.ibo.org/copyright." [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::::I am not suggesting we use the Dwight school ref., just offering proof of what Candy and I have been saying. We can still use the IB guide as a verifiable reference.
:::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:09, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
[http://www.ioe.ucla.edu/academics/article.asp?parentid=408 Env. Sys. & Soc. Minor at UCLA] -Just FYI- found this to be interesting [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::LaMome - please refer to [[WP:Verifiability]] and also the section on Self-pub. Furthermore, I am not suggesting that what IB teachers are claiming is "not true", merely that we follow Wikipedia rules for verifiability. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::::::With regards to which source? Please refer to [[WP:TLDR]] regarding posts further up on pilot courses. So, I think we can change the name back to Environmental systems and societies, no?
:::::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::LaMome - The Dwight School Guide violates copyright. Your original .pdf's are from 2008. I respectfully requested that we wait for IBO's website to come back online before any such changes are made. Please adhere to the guidelines of the Truce you agreed to. I would also like for other non-IB teacher editors to weigh in on the issue. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
=== Break ===
It's not the Dwight school's guide, it's the electronic version of the IB Guide for Environmental systems and societies. The hardcopy can be purchased. We can reference the guide, without linking directly to it, as we have done already with many other IB guides. The Oxford source has the course companion, with the title. As I said before, I am not suggesting that we use these sources in our references, just offering proof that the course is indeed called Environmental systems and societies. We can wait for other editors to weigh in, but it seems to me that once again a lot of time and talk page space have been wasted on a simple issue. No need to specify the occupations of editors. In fact, I am pretty sure that is inappropriate. [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:I am working very hard to be polite, welcoming and to abide by [[WP:TRUCE]] as crafted by Cinchbug. I stated above that I am not accusing you of providing misinformation, however it is proprietary information and not verifiable by non-IB members. Cinchbug, Candorwein, Ewen and you have all identified yourselves as IB teachers who therefore have access to IB material that the average Wikipedia reader does not. There is nothing inappropriate about mentioning that, as it reflects proprietary access. I take offense at your use of [[WP:TLDR]] regarding my comments on this talk page and suggest that you avoid [[WP:Gaming the system]].[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::A simple google search will provide you (and all readers for that matter) with the guides that are listed in the references. This is no different than any of the other guides we have already listed. In fact, I provided you with the so-called proprietary information, so you can't keep saying you don't have access to it. I take offense at your repeated references to the occupations of other editors, including myself. You apologised for attempting to out me, yet continue to make reference to personal information.
::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::So, we are waiting for Truthkeeper, HelloAnnyong, Pointillist and perhaps TFOWR to weigh in? How do you know that they are "non-IB teacher" editors?
:::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::The proprietary information you linked violates IB copyright law and is therefore inadmissible as a source. Reference to your self-identification as an IB teacher does not constitute [[WP:Outing]]. I have objected to the inclusion of ANY IB guides in ANY IB articles and if there are other citations which currently exist in the articles, I challenge them as well. A Wikipedia article is not meant to stand as an advertisement for IB or to try and generate revenue for the IB Store. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::1. As I have said before, other IB guides are referenced. It's no different than referencing a book. I did not suggest we link the Dwight school source.
::::2. The articles are about an educational programme. Referencing curriculum materials is logical and necessary.
::::3. There are no links or references to the IB store, therefore no advertising or self publishing.
::::4. Stop referring to me as an IB teacher. You've done it at least 3 times within the past few hours.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::TFOWR, HelloAnnyong and Truthkeeper have all stated a "neutral", non-affiliated position with regards to IB. Pointillist is new to the discussion and I have no idea whether he/she is an IB teacher or not. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::And you have a "neutral" affiliation with IB? [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::I am not employed to teach IB, nor am I employed by The College Board. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::That doesn't really answer the question. A simple yes or no will suffice.
::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::ObserverNY, if you'd like TFOWR, Truthkeeper88, HelloAnnyong, and Pointillist to give their opinions on the matter, then that sounds fine to me. But, as I pointed out recently, I'm not sure that the fact that the subject guides cannot be freely accessed by everyone on the internet is relevant. Again, scientific journals are also not free--thus articles from scientific journals cannot typically be read unless the reader has a subscription or is at a school, university, or library that has purchased a subscription to the journal. Making a reference to such a journal, or having a Wikipedia article about that journal, is not an advertisement for the journal nor intended to generate revenue for the journal. Likewise, referencing the subject guide for a given course isn't advertisement for the course or IB, nor is it intended to generate revenue for the IB. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 14:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
=== Break 2 ===
Uh, I was asked to comment on this. But the conversation seems to have deviated from the todo list that this set out to be. So what do you need my thoughts on? — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:For those weighing in-Is the title of the course, environmental systems and societies or ecosystems and societies? Can we use IB subject guides as sources or is that breaking copyright laws? Is it appropriate to repeatedly mention the professions of other editors?
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 15:07, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::Cinchbug - A reference to an article in a published scientific journal is not self-published. Therein lies the difference. In the Pilot Courses section above, Candorwein states: ''In fact it is not even verified by the source of the information - the IB (their store has the ESS guide currently for sale). --Candy (talk) 13:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)''. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::'''A point of order please.''' My quote was ''As regards my comment below about ESS, the UWC statement about Ecosystems and Societies is unverified. In fact it is not even verified by the source of the information - the IB (their store has the ESS guide currently for sale). This is both true and verifyable (they are not necessarily mutually exclusive).'' Taking the second senetnce out of context lt seems as if I am saying that the IB's source is unverified. In fact I was indicating that the UWC source is not verified by the IB. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 19:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::(edit conflict) HA - I have requested that we wait for the IBO website to come back online to see what the IB currently names the Environmental/Ecosystems course. I have provided a UWC source which contradicts a 2008 IB source provided by LaMome. The discussion has devolved into what appears to me, pushing of proprietary sources which violate copyright and [[WP:Verifiability]]. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::One, we don't edit based on whether or not a [[WP:PSTS|primary source]] site is up. Two, ibo.org loads for me. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::[http://www.ibo.org/ibna/ibnarecognition/diplomaprogrammeinformation/ Environmental systems and societies] [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 15:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::HA - problem solved, the site was not up this morning but it is now. I will accept the following as a legitimate source for the changing of the course title to Environmental Systems and Societies: http://www.ibo.org/ibna/ibnarecognition/diplomaprogrammeinformation/ Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::The "problem" was solved yesterday. Like I said, Environmental systems and societies. [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 15:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::Excellent; good job reaching a solution. Message me if you need me again. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::The problem was not solved yesterday or this morning. Furthermore, regarding [[WP:PSTS|primary source]], the opening sentence states: ''Wikipedia articles '''should rely mainly on published reliable secondary sources''' and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.''. My UWC reference constituted a secondary source which I am willing to forego in light of IB's updated website. I am on record as challenging any usage of IB Guides in IB articles as sources. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
(outdent) The bigger issue, I think, is whether or not the subject guides written by the IB may be used as legitimate references in our articles here. As I stated above, I see no reason why they wouldn't be and I haven't found anything at [[Wikipedia:PSTS#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources|PSTS]] that suggests otherwise. These sources aren't being used to make "analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative" claims, but rather strictly "descriptive" claims, in accordance with PSTS. The fact that not everyone can freely obtain the guides--or immediately see them for free online--is not relevant, I think. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 15:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:Cinchbug - I agree, that is the bigger issue. According to [[WP:PSTS|primary source]]: '''Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.''' IB can make all the claims it wants about itself, but without secondary backup, it is merely self-promotion and does not meet [[WP:Verifiability]] standards, imho. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:38, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::It's okay to use an IBO source to cite the name of the program. It's even okay to marginally describe what the class does with the source, should you ever want to put that in. But when you start trying to analyzing it, then a secondary source is needed. So in this previous case, we correctly used a primary source to describe something. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, ObserverNY, that is a quote from [[Wikipedia:PSTS#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources|PSTS]], but using a subject guide to identify the name of a course or to describe the curriculum of the course does not involve any "interpretation of primary source material." If, for example, we were to use the subject guide for Mathematics HL to make the claim that "Mathematics HL is the best secondary school mathematics course on Earth," then that would indeed be "interpretive" and, in fact, also "evaluative." But I don't recall seeing any such use of the subject guides in any of these WP articles about IB. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 15:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::IB is notorious for its lack of transparency. While you may justifiably insist on using IB Guides as a primary source for these articles for course naming instances only, I respectfully submit that Wikipedia states articles: ''should rely '''mainly''' on published reliable secondary sources''. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::: I understand (as has been pointed out several times by yourself and others) that it is important not to take the hyperbole of any organisation or company and spin it in Wikipedia without appropriate secondary sources. Of course, some of this hyperbole could be quoted if enough reliable secondary sources were found to support it or repudiate it so that the reader understands what the issues are. I totally agree.
:::It would be good to think of you providing polite checks and balances in this article. I'm certain we would all appreciate that. However, I would also appreciate you moving a little more towards the centre so that basic verifiable facts from primary sources (as they are in many articles) can be used in the spirit of editing wikipedia. This will allow all the editors to move on towards the stated goals. If you really find this a problem then I would appreciate you going to the [[Village Pump]] and getting some response from there. I would be happy to follow their advice. Thanks. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
== DP aims ==
The very first para states, "The International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme (IBDP) is a two-year educational programme for students aged 16–19 that '''aims to provide an internationally accepted qualification for entry into higher education.'''"
Two things bother me about this sentence. The first is that the ref used is 5 years old and the IB has moved on significantly since then. The second is that this is only one of the aims in the document. By stressing just one it makes it appear as though this is the only aim of the DP - which clearly it is not. What about expanding it to include all the aims of the DP? --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 12:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:It seems to me that a number of the "aims" of the IBDP have been expressed in the Core requirements section of the article. However, if you wish to include other different and more general aims, I think that would be the proper placement for them, not in the overview.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Issues of outing and COI ==
Okay, look. This is very simple. In order to maintain [[WP:CIVIL|civility]] best, it is advised that everyone not make mention of everyone else's professions, personal interests, websites, and so on. It is simply inappropriate to repeatedly state that a person holds Position X or runs Website Y, as it seems like, among other reasons, the accuser is just trying to discredit the other editors in doing so, and we should have none of that. Stay on topic and do not bring personal things into it. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:Sure, sounds good to me! Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 15:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::Me too! [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 17:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::[[WP:Conflict of Interest]] due to the fact that some editors to this article about IB are paid to teach IB, is the source of all major editing conflicts to date. Choosing to ignore this fact does not help matters. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 18:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I don't think that's reasonable, ONY. (1) The facts should speak for themselves and who puts them forward is irrelevant. (2) How can 'some' editors cause 'all' the conflicts? (3) COI isn't just due to some editors being IB teachers. Some editors run anti-IB websites, you know. However, point 3 isn't any use if you accept point 1. Back to editing?
:::[[User:Ewen|Ewen]] ([[User talk:Ewen|talk]]) 19:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Agree wholeheartedly with Ewen, (and welcome back!) [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 20:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::The fact that the number of editors on the IB series are overwhelmingly IB teachers who are PAID to teach IB courses unjustly biases the entire editing process. This is evidenced by the constant demands that "the majority has spoken". I am not getting paid to promote or not promote IB. My interest is strictly in presenting the facts. There is an IB "gang" mentality amongst all of the editors here. I'm done. You win. Load up the article with all of your unverifiable IB propaganda to your heart's content. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Capitalization ==
For a fifth time, I am requesting that the issue of consistency of capitalization of IB courses be addressed. Thank you. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 18:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:Honestly it comes up in many articles, and really isn't too important until the final proofreading/copyediting stage. I wouldn't worry about it for the time being. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::It's really not your place to tell me what "to worry about", TK. I asked for the editors on this article to come to an agreement regarding the capitalization style of IB courses for consistency. Apparently it was important enough when '''Pointillist''' made changes, but now it isn't? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::Almost 75 posts have been added to this page on August 23rd. It is impossible to keep up with the conversation, let alone edit the article. It seems you have a number of demands, such as editors not editing, etc,. In my view, the capitalization isn't immediately important, but if you want my opinion it's this: as the article is about the IB Diploma Programme, then the nomenclature complete with spelling & capitalization of the International Baccalaureate is appropriate. As such, Pointillist's edits were appropriate. What else needs to changed? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Done. Don't care. Over and out. Selective illiteracy doesn't pass my smell test for intellectual honesty. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::From my desk copy of the Chicago Manual of Style: ''[Rules] reflect the tendency toward the use of fewer capitals, toward what is called ''down'' (lowercase) style [....] most authors do not feel strongly about capitalization [...] the editor must establish a logical, acceptable style and regularize any departure from it [...]Rules for capitalizing or lowercasing specific terms can seldom be applied to every case. The editor, understanding the nature of the work, must use discretion, judgement, and intuition in deciding when to follow the pattern...'' Also, according to my desk copy of CMOS, there is not a section with capitalizations of course names. In science, neither biology nor chemistry is capitalized, so generally those would not be capitalized as courses (unless it's Chemistry 100, in which case it is capitalized), I believe that the capitalizations we are using in this article are fine as they point to generic courses which might be renamed by each institution that uses them. As I stated above, it comes up in every article and the tendency, in early drafts is to over-capitalize, but in reality many fewer terms/words are capitalized in English than most realize. Hope this is helpful. And, should know better, but must reply, that this is not selective illiteracy; the folks who write style books generally set the style, and others break the style. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::My comment referring to "selective illiteracy" was in response to your comment that "It is impossible to keep up with the conversation", not article style. Both you and HelloAnnyong decide what you feel like reading and what you don't. '''"Also, according to my desk copy of CMOS, there is not a section with capitalizations of course names. In science, neither biology nor chemistry is capitalized,''' ("so generally those would not be capitalized as courses" - <u>this is YOUR incorrect interpretation</u>) '''(unless it's Chemistry 100, in which case it is capitalized)"''' That pretty much answers the question regarding IB course names, don't you think? No one is discussing environmental systems and societies as a general topic as in biology or chemistry. It is a properly named course and should be reflected as Environmental Systems and Societies. I doubt it will help, despite the fact that it is pretty darn clear, because the IBers will never agree to it because it doesn't reflect the almighty IB's incorrect "style". Good bye. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::::First of all the many posts are simply too long to read. As for the subject names, schools offer biology and chemistry courses (generic) but a specific school offers a course titled Chemistry 100 or some such thing. The distinction is important in capitalizations because each school can/may title the course as they want. The title is capitalized. The generic name of the subject is not. As such although it seems odd, a subject titled dance is just that, dance. Also, you glossed over the section that mentions the tendency toward fewer capitalizations, and in fact capitalizing the first word and not subsequent words is absolutely correct. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::No, it is not my incorrect interpretation. It's correct usage. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::See? You simply cannot accept the facts in your own manual. The courses in question will be reflected in schools guides as IB SL Dance. No different than Dance 101. Done. Outta here. Don't care. Have fun storming the castle! Ciao! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 23:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::::This encyclopedia is not a course guide and hence the subjects are generic subject names, thus not capitalized. You've asked my opinion and I've given three/four times now. The article reflects the rules in style manuals and as such is fine in my opinion. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
== New approach to editing? ==
Perhaps we should try a different approach, one that avoids too much discussion on the talk pages, such as [[WP:1RR]] or [[WP:BRD]]? I think someone had suggested that earlier on, but it may have been missed or dismissed because it works best with experienced editors. At this point, I think the majority of editors are experienced. I don't include myself in that category, but I think I understand the concept and am willing to give it a try. I am going to go ahead and make some edits, based on discussions and suggestions that were made. If they are not to your liking, go ahead and revert and discuss here. A little less conversation and a little more ... editing? [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 19:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
:Good suggestions. I think we need to monitor how many edits we make to this talk page, compared to the number of edits made to the article itself. I'm at the wrong end of the continuum when it comes to talking versus editing, and will strive to do more constructive stuff - action not words! [[User:Ewen|Ewen]] ([[User talk:Ewen|talk]]) 19:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
::Hi, Ewen! Um, this may make our first interaction a bit awkward, since I suppose that you may have been trying to make a point. But I'm going to reinsert most of my comments that were deleted with your most recent edit. Here they are:
::La mome, I'm all for trying something else, since it seems like all other efforts have failed to maintain any reasonable degree of civility. I should point out that I'm a little concerned about [[WP:BRD]], based on this:
:::''BRD ... requires more '''diplomacy''' and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure.'' [emphasis mine]
::Diplomacy has historically been a problem here. But the following is also suggested, which may help:
:::''Some have even taken to simply declaring their intent by adding the shortcut "[[WP:BRD]]" at the front of their edit summary. This seems to help keep people from taking as much offense at proposed changes.''
::Of course, it continues:
:::''In a way, you're actively provoking another person with an edit they may (strongly) disagree on, so you're going to need to use all your tact to explain what you're aiming to achieve.''
::Tact--which runs hand in glove with diplomacy--is something that has been sorely lacking in many comments around here, I'm afraid. Still, I'm game. Let's give it a try! Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 19:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
== History Section Clarification ==
Quote> "In 1974, bilingual diplomas were introduced, allowing students to take one or more of their humanities or science subjects in a language other than their first."
First of all, I'm glad the frenzied talk is over and we can get back to our purpose. I will continue editing here if it stays calm like this.
About this sentence. If students are getting bilingual diplomas doesn't this imply that they have at least two languages that or (close to) mother-tongue level? I know that good bi or tri-lingual people actually have one language better than the others (although to you and I their languages would be indistinguishable from being native or very near native) but I'm ignoring this as it is a splitting hairs issue to some extent. If they have two essentially equal languages how can they ''"take one or more of their humanities or science subjects in a language other than their first"'' as they are both first languages?
Shouldn't it say something like'' "take one or more humanities subjects in either of their bilingual languages?"''
--[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 21:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:: I am also glad to see that things have calmed down. Candy, usually only one language is first (unless the person is raised in a bilingual family). It is quite possible for students to study geography or history in a language other than their first, provided, of course, that they are sufficiently fluent in this language; but by no means does it have to be near the level of their first one. For example, the school I went to used to offer (before my time) middle and high school geography and history in a foreign language that students started learning in second grade. Interestingly, this was the only option, and the idea was that this would help students learn the language even better, along with history and geography.[[User:Tvor65|Tvor65]] ([[User talk:Tvor65|talk]]) 21:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Candy, that section came from one the sources Uncle G provided. Before rewording the source should be checked to verify exactly what the meaning is here. Good catch, though. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Candy, that's an interesting point. I agree with TK that we need to make sure that it wouldn't contradict anything in the references. Assuming we find that it doesn't, how about this, to keep it as general as we can: "...''take some subjects in one language and other subjects in a different language''." Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 21:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::I don't have the Hill book that's published by Sage. This text is from Uncle G's suggested version for the history, the original of which I saved in my [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthkeeper88/IB_Sandbox#Uncle_G.27s_version sandbox]. So, in my view the section can/may be changed as long verifiable sources exist. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Great question! [http://www.ibo.org/diploma/recognition/guide/slidef.cfm This may help-]
:::::::"Bilingual diplomas are awarded for:
::::::::•two languages A1, or
::::::::•a language A1 taken together with a language A2, or
::::::::•a group 3 or 4 subject taken in a language other than the candidate's language A1, or
::::::::•an extended essay in a group 3 or group 4 subject written in a language other than the candidate's language A1."
::::::::Language A1 is first native language--A2 is second native language. As an aside, and purely from experience (haven't checked any research yet---)--It is rare that a bilingual person will be equally proficient in both languages (two languages A1). As a test, ask them which language they count in or do math equations in--that is their "true" first language.
::::::::Cheers-[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 22:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks La mome for the info on the bilingual degree. <br />
On another note: text has been added to the article about the United World College and the UN school in New York, neither of which began offering the IB until 1968 according to the sources we are using and which I've read. As currently written the information splits a source, I've changed it, ONY has changed back, and at this point I don't know what to do, but the information belongs in the section about the specific schools that first offered IB in the late 60s and in fact the UWC source verifies 1968 but not 1962 which is where it's currently placed. Some advice is welcome. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:La mome, I'm not sure we need quite that much [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310064166&oldid=310062427 detail] here--it seems excessive. Still, while I'm inclined to revert your edit, I mean no offense and will wait and listen to what you and other editors have to say. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 23:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
::No problem--instead of reverting, maybe we can come up with a less-detailed description of the IB Bilingual Diploma? I am at a loss for words right now, but if you want to try, be my guest! Otherwise, revert and we can look at it again at a later date...
::Ciao for now - [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 00:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Truthkeeper-I see your point. Also, as it is worded now, it seems like the IBDP was developed in 3 different schools simultaneously, whereas I believe it was developed ''at'' Ecolint, with educators from the other 2 schools going ''there'' to work with them. I am not sure how to fix it and am signing off for now. I'll look at it again tomorrow.
:::Cheers-[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 00:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Food for thought-
::::[http://www.uwc.org/who_we_are/history/international_baccalaureate_development.aspx Quote from here]:
::::"The IB Diploma was created by a group of teachers from three international schools - International School of Geneva, UWC of the Atlantic and the UN School of New York. It was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1968. Atlantic College was one of the seven schools that piloted the IB Diploma alongside UK A-levels, and became the first school in the world to abandon its own national curriculum in favour of the IB in 1971."
::::vs
::::[http://books.google.com/books?id=ueb7JiS2jhIC&pg=RA2-PA12&lpg=RA2-PA12&dq=Kurt+Hahn+International+Baccalaureate&source=bl&ots=PonJwoBSuD&sig=fb4EHqXZthFMbgPxMU7obWvPSEM&hl=en&ei=D2WUSpvEOoznlAfF3N26DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=Kurt%20Hahn%20International%20Baccalaureate&f=false Quote from here]: ‘The original idea for an international qualification….first outlined by a group of teachers at the International School in Geneva in '''1962'''. …. Further developments such as the ISES in '''1965''' and the involvement of the Atlantic College in Wales"…
:::: [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::What you've presented here is consistent with the timeline/history we've been working on, but now the article is not consistent as it has UWC Atlantic & the UN school offering IB in 1962, whereas in reality that didn't happen until 1968. I did edit the section but ONY has moved it back, and as ONY appears to be "done" with the discussion, I'm a bit stymied as how to proceed without simply deleting the edits. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the input with the Bilingual Diplomas. We can mark it as something to get back to. '''Perhaps we can create a list of to-do's as a banner at the top of the page which won't get archived? We can then focus on one or two of then at a time or an individual or groups can work on them together as they wish. It may even attract visitors to get involved editing?'''
::I've often heard exactly what you say about counting and maths to define the stronger language. My research tells me that if possible, for bilingual children, there is a benefit for having the relatively "harder" of the two languages should be the stronger. (My son is being raised bilingually and we're focusing on Mandarin - but fortunately it will truly be his mother-tongue.) I've also experienced students without a mother-tongue - they often have learning difficulties as they can't ground concepts effectively it seems. Ok, I'm off the point.
::However, my current school has about 25% bilingual diplomas each year. Many, but not all, of these students answer the question about counting with, "usually the language I am talking in at the time" - we don't do A2. I also find it odd as my German is OK (I do all my financial transactions in German for example) and I count in German (but I would never pass an A2 examination). Maths I don't do in any language - it's all images to me :)
::Regarding history. I'll try to get around to looking at that soonish. I don't really know what help I can offer though. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::I just got sucked in - in a nice way though. :) This may be old hat but have you viewed [[http://www.brandonsd.mb.ca/neelin/Admin/What%20is%20the%20History%20of%20IB.doc.]]. I like the way it phrases the IB and it may even have met ONY's approval of no self-serving advertisements.
::''"Founded in the 1960's, the IBO grew out of international school efforts to establish a common curriculum and university entry credential for geographically mobile students. Beyond practical considerations, international educators were also motivated by an idealistic vision: they hoped that a shared academic experience emphasizing critical thinking and exposure to a variety of viewpoints would foster tolerance and inter-cultural understanding among young people. Concentration on the last two years of secondary school sought to build a comprehensive curriculum - leading to a baccalaureate - that could be administered in any country and recognized by universities in every country."'' Trouble is I don't see I reliable citation for where this comes from (school's are not necessarily good sources of information as they have their own agendas), I like the phrasing though as a relatively straight-forward description of its development. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I made some edits based on the dates and sources listed in my post above. Let me know what you think.
:::I like the wording of Candy's statement and we might be able to weave some of it into what we already have. The problem is we have so many historical details and that statement you provided is a good general description of the history/background of IB.
:::I made changes to the "awards" section to separate the types of awards-diploma, bilingual diploma and certificate. Given that there are 25% bilingual diplomas in your school, and a similar number in international schools around the world, I think that maybe my detailed description of what a bilingual diploma is isn't so bad after all?!
:::I've seen those to-do lists elsewhere and that was what I was trying to do here--but then I realized if it is in the body of the talkpage it will get archived. Can someone make a "to-do list" box?
:::Cheers [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 20:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Hi La Mome. Actually, I found your response about bilingual diplomas to be very clear and agree with it. Sorry I didn't state that clearly but rambled on with my own agenda! The big difference in our school is that they are all A1 bilinguals though. As an aside I once taught a Serbian student who went to a Russian Kindergarten, primary schooled in Italy and Germany and secondary schooled in English. She learned French as her B language and Spanish for fun. Serbian, Russian, German, Italian and English were all A1 level yet she ended up studying in the UK and getting a doctorate in genetics. Bright as a button!
::::yes, it's the box we need.
::::Please note I made a couple of edits on the page. Should actually be minor but I didn't check the box on purpose as editing here needs to be as transparent as possible. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know where to find the box. Will do so later (am just logging off for a little while). Also, looks like the edit warring has started again -- very tedious! [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
== Edit war ==
I've [[WP:BOLD|bold]]ly deleted the history section for the time being. It can be added back later. In my view comments such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310243555&oldid=310239910 this] are too inflammatory and beyond any sort of spirit of civility. Rather than having an edit war, the section is gone. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Deleting an entire section is entirely uncivil and I have reverted your edit. YOU PEOPLE didn't WANT discussion. The second I say I'm DONE you turn this talk page into a forum. Stop being such hypocrites. I added perfectly fine facts with verifiable citations. You have a problem with Hahn? You have a problem with Desmond Cole? What is your problem? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::See your talk page to see what my problem is with you ObserverNY. I should add that I don't approve in the wholesale deletion of the talk page by Truthkeeper. I hope TK will revert that as it was without discussion. Sometimes things are done in frustration and anger. TK seems to be very reasonable. We all have our moments (don't we?) --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Why I deleted an entire section that I've spent a long time working on: [[User:ObserverNY]] added text into the middle of a sentence thereby splitting the source. In addition, [[User:ObserverNY]]'s edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968. Last night I took the time to move the text to the appropriate place [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310049637&oldid=310049380 here]. That edit was reverted by [[User:ObserverNY]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=next&oldid=310051385 here]. Today, La mome, who has also worked on the history section moved the text so it would be in the appropriate section. That edit was reverted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310235749&oldid=310235154 here]. In my view, if a section is controversial and if an editor wants to engage in an edit war, then the section can be removed for a short period and replaced later (which is what I'd intended). Looking at the edit histories, [[User:ObserverNY]] has broken the 3R rule today. That's edit warring. I've tried very hard to be even keelend and civil, but when the inappropriate comments were brought to my user page, I realised that perhaps being even keeled doesn't always do the job. At any rate, the section is restored. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::Oh crap TK. I made a facetious remark on your talk page today and forgot to sign it. I hope you weren't reacting to that thinking it was ONY? If you were mea culpa. I'll be a lot more sensitive in future. /spanks self --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::''"In addition, User:ObserverNY's edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968."'' You are incorrect, TK. The UWC cite mentions the 3 schools, therefore your addition of {{cite}} is uncalled for. I changed 1962 to "the early 1960's". I believe 1962-1964 qualifies as the early 1960's, no? The following sentence to which I added Desmond Cole of UNIS with the Jay Mathews cite, further establishes the time frame for the participation of those 3 schools in the IBDP's development, re, those who formed ISES in .... 1964... early 1960's. I thought you would endeavor to actually read the very good secondary sources I provided, but I guessed wrong. Oh well. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::No, I mean [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] which is actually addressed to you but on my talkpage, and not at all appropriate. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::The "edit war" was started over the inclusion of these sentences:
::::"The Diploma Programme's development began in the early 1960's at the International School of Geneva (Ecolint), United World College (UWC) of the Atlantic and the United Nations International School (UNIS) of New York. Alec Peterson, author of Schools Across Frontiers, credits the influence of the curriculum model developed at the UWC of the Atlantic as serving as the eventual framework of the IBDP as well as the work of his mentor educationist Kurt Hahn, who was instrumental in shaping the college’s philosophy."
::::Truthkeeper and I explained both on the talkpage and in the edit summaries why these two sentences needed to be reworded and moved to a chronologically appropriate part of the article.
::::More precisely, according to sources already included in the article, the development of the IBDP began at Ecolint in 1962 and continued later (1965)with UWC and UNIS, when Mayer started his study. The source listed from the UWC does not state that it was developed ''at'' those schools, but rather ''by'' educators ''from'' those schools. Nuance.
::::The Pound source is quoting from the first edition of the Peterson book. In my opinion, Pound and as a result we, would be giving undue weight to the UWC by including it there. The UWC is linked to twice already--in the external links section and in the IB series section. Why? Undue weight is also given to Hahn here, as he was instrumental in shaping the ''UWC's'' philosophy. The person from UWC- Atlantic College who should be mentioned and who is not is the 3rd Desmond from the "humorous interlude" in the archives-- Desmond Hoare-- the headmaster at UWC.
::::I propose that we collaboratively decide where and how to incorporate those two sentences. My proposal is the version reverted by ONY.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 23:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::As an unabashed fan of [[Paul_Erdos#Collaborators|collaboration]], I thank La mome for clearly explaining the issues with some of the recent edits and once again hope that we can work together to reach consensus here, while limiting the drama as much as is possible. La mome's suggestion to use, for example, [[WP:BRD]], includes the third letter (D) of the acronym, which refers to "discuss," thus there is no reason to suggest that discussion was not welcome. It is instead clear that [[WP:BRD]] specifically ''requires'' discussion. So, please, let's make use of that part of the process, too--without invective, accusation, hyperbole, or other various types of nastiness. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 00:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Wrote this before CB's comment above, so it might be more abrasive than it needs, but it does explain the history:
:::::::I don't object to the content; I do object to placement of the content. I moved the content and my edit was reverted. This is now the third/fourth/fifth time that the history section has been muddled up. It's very simple: it's history, and as such should follow some sort of chronological order and that order must rely on verifiable sources. If Pound is quoting Peterson, then we have the Peterson source in place, the chronology was correct: i.e. Leach had a conference in 1962; ISES was formed in the mid sixties; IB became an entity at the end of 67 beginning of 68. Peterson explains the UNIS connection on page 22 [http://books.google.com/books?id=nTUjMNjNo3EC&dq=peterson+international+baccalaureate&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=AJVnSomID8KRtge16Z33Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#v=onepage&q=&f=false here]: in 1964, the Ford Foundation asked [[Harlan Hanson]] and Desmond Cole join the group in Geneva at [[Ecolint]] as the Ford Foundation was investing millions in UNIS and they considered the "new international university entrance examination" to be appropriate at UNIS. So, the UNIS group didn't begin IB -- Ford asked that two people be sent to Geneva (Hanson & Cole) and contribute to work being done there. I have absolutely no objection to this being added to the article in the chronologically appropriate place. Will read Hill, Peterson, Fox & Pound re; the Atlantic college involvement and respond later, but at this point I think it's better to synthesize the material appropriately before adding potentially to the incorrect spot. Apologies, btw for removing the offending section, but it seemed the only option at that moment. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::LaMome and Truthkeeper are incorrect in their allegations about the lack of influence of Kurt Hahn and Alec Peterson (the father of the IBDP) and their insistence on 1968 and removing my edits to put somewhere else. The UWC was founded in 1962 by Hahn. Between 1962 and 1964, he joined forced with the others (including Cole of UNIS) to form ISES. They ALL worked on the IBDP's development. You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence. History is history and it would be CIVIL of TK and LaMome to take the time to actually read the references I took time to research instead of arbitrarily deleting them. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I have read them. The dates don't match up. If you want to shove something in where it doesn't belong, then the section should be removed. I've said more than once, I don't object to the content, but it should be placed appropriately. Please don't accuse me of not reading sources again when I've read Hill, Pound, Fox, Peterson and others, sources you explicitly stated you had no time to read. Were you to take the time to read the sources I've mentioned you'd see the error. Edit warring with you is exhausting and draining and in my view I'd rather delete the entire section again rather than arguing with you. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
TK- I made a comment to you on my talk page. Please read. Yeah, editing with you is exhausting - like what I had to go through to prove to you that a [[foundation]] isn't a [[foundation]] without a Board of Directors (President), and only after a lengthy battle did you finally admit to someone else on your talk page, not here, that my point was justified. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I don't have a problem with the inclusion of Peterson and I never did. On Page 17 of ''Schools across frontiers'' he says: "A committee of sponsors was formed drawn from members of various international organisations based in Geneva, but the driving force in the transition from an idea, ...to a reality was not international organisations nor, as in the case of the Atlantic College, a group of influential opinion leaders with royal patronage, but the teachers at Ecolint, led by Cole- Baker....As a result of the co-operative efforts of this group, 1962, the year of the foundation of Atlantic cllege, also saw the first small conference in Geneva, organised by the teachers in Ecolint's social studies department, under their Chairman Bob Leach, which made specific mention of the words "International Baccalaureate."
:This article is about the IBDP, not the UWC. While there is no question that their histories are inextricably connected (the full title of Peterson's book is ''Schools across frontiers: the story of the IB and the UWC''), it does not say on pages 16-17 in the second edition, at least as far as I can see that Hahn was a founding figure in ISES. Yes, Peterson was a big fan of his. But Hahn is not listed in the back as one of the "people who made IB." There is however, a picture of the "three planners of the café de remor"--Peterson, Cole-Baker and Hanson.
:I read the sources you provided and made comments above on how the wording in our article does not "jive" with what was actually said in those sources, as well as others here.
:The whole reason for the [[WP:1RR]] was to avoid this kind of back and forth and especially edit warring.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
<s>::ObserverNY: I don't remember the foundation discussion. However, if editing with me is so exhausting, then perhaps you won't mind if I revert all the many edits where I've cleaned up your cite mistakes among others. I will now drop out here, as obviously I have nothing to add. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::Btw -- did my comment on my talkpage include profanity? Have I demanded an apology ad nauseam? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)</s>
:::"You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence."[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::Why would we do that?
:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310267776&oldid=310259019 This comment] was uncalled for. I believe you owe me an apology and I would appreciate it if you would strike it or delete it from your talk page.
:::Thanks - [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I've restored an earlier version of the article by Candorwien, since the Peterson source does not say that the [[Atlantic_College|United World College of the Atlantic (aka "Atlantic College")]] was involved in the 1962 developments. Also, the UWC web reference does not specify early dates. While it's very clear that Atlantic College was involved in later developments, this spot in the history isn't the right place for it. From Peterson, it seems that Atlantic College was the ___location for a curriculum conference in 1965 (two conferences, actually, one in the spring and one in the fall). While I may have missed some earlier reference to Atlantic College's direct involvement with the development of IB, this is the earliest mention I've found so far. Again, Atlantic College should be mentioned in the "Early development" section, but it should be mentioned a bit later than it was in the version that I just changed. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:In re-reading Peterson, I'm not sure that Atlantic College hosted the 1965 spring (March) conference, but they definitely participated along with Ecolint. Atlantinc College did host the curriculum conference in October 1965, though. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
== Kurt Hahn ==
http://www.outward-bound.org/docs/staff/kurthahn-essay.htm
In 1962, at the age of 76, Hahn established Atlantic College in Wales, with the help of Sir Lawrence Darvall and many others. Atlantic College was the first of seven United World Colleges and was designed to bridge the international gap between secondary education and university level study by offering a universally recognized degree, the International Baccalaureate.
http://www.ibo.org/council/peterson/documents/Peterson_biography_eFINAL.pdf
He (Peterson) met Kurt Hahn at a conference on international education in Belgium in 1957. Through this
acquaintance with Hahn’s educational philosophy together with his military connections Peterson
visited the new Atlantic College at St Donats (Wales) for the first time in 1961 (before any students
had been enrolled). Kurt Hahn had helped to establish the school with Rear-Admiral '''Desmond
Hoare''' as founding headmaster and '''Robert Blackburn''' as deputy headmaster. During the summer of
1962 Peterson worked with Blackburn to provide a broad academic curriculum to the students who
were to enter this first of the United World Colleges in September of the same year.
Peterson was a staunch campaigner against what he regarded as the over-specialization of British
education at pre-university level. In 1960 he published a report Arts and Science Sides in the Sixth Form
based on research funded by the Gulbenkian Foundation. '''It is noteworthy how closely the content of
the report resembles not only the philosophy but also the structure of the IB Diploma Programme,
which had only begun to be elaborated a few years later.''' [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== IB's authorization "standards" ==
I just received an e-mail from London pointing out an IB school in the UK which was authorized in June, 2008. http://www.ibo.org/school/000484/ I was also referred to an article that hit the UK press during the 2 year IB authorization process: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23384657-details/We+do+use+books+that+call+Jews+%27apes%27+admits+head+of+Islamic+school/article.do
Frankly, this is outrageous. Is this the sort of "cultural understanding" IB is willing to slap its label on, as long as the cheques are good? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:Observer, this is [[WP:NOTFORUM|not a forum]]. That second link does not mention IB specifically anywhere on it, so any sort of statement you'd want to make about connecting the IBO link to the article is [[WP:SYN|synthesis of sources]], which is a type of [[WP:OR]] - and is inadmissible. Again, this is not a place for you to discuss your outrage regarding "cultural understanding," so take it elsewhere. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::ROTFLMAO! What a perfect example! Well done HA! ''The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.'' '''IB aims to create intercultural understanding and world peace but authorizes schools that breed hatred.''' ROTFLMAO! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
HA - well done again, HA. If the information cannot be addressed or incorporated into the article as per [[WP:SYN]] I respect and abide by that policy. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 11:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== IBDP article and talk page ==
Nice job Cinchbug and Candorwien (regarding recent edits). While the history of the UWC is fascinating and very much connected to the development of the IB curriculum, we can only add here what is verifiable and accurately reflects what is said in the sources. Thank you for remaining focused on improving the article and maintaining a collaborative approach to editing. HelloAnnyong, I applaud your efforts as well. What can we do to discourage editors from climbing soap boxes? Didn't check before writing this---have we abandoned the "to-do box" idea, or is it in place? Cheers! [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 22:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:TK has placed the box at the top of the page. I encourage editors to use it--but please use the "Preview" button before saving changes, so that you can learn how it works! My experience with these pages suggests that editors too often don't bother to review their changes using "Preview," resulting in a great number of otherwise unnecessary additional changes. Nevertheless, thanks to TK for the box! Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 23:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
== "must attend" vs "must be enrolled in" ==
I changed "attend" to "must be enrolled" for a reason, one which I didn't think needed to be dragged out into a lengthy discussion. But noooooooooo, you have to revert my edit and tag some BS reason to it. Stop being an obstructionist and get over yourself. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:What is your reason? Mine is [[WP:TRITE]]--as in it is more consise to say that students must physically attend an IB school to participate in the program. As far as I know, the online courses are not open to students not attending an IB school. "Attend" also has fewer words than "be enrolled in". Please stop the name-calling. It is also rude to use an editor's name as the section heading of an article talk page. If others prefer "be enrolled in" then so be it.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::Re "online courses section" - it states: ''Eventually, the IB expects to offer the online courses to students who are not enrolled in an IB World School''. Ergo, my REASON'''S''' for changing out "must attend" to "be enrolled in" ('''be''' and '''in''' being the only ADDITIONAL words) which you felt the compulsion to revert, is twofold - 1. Consistency in language 2. A homeschooled child may "attend" a school for certain activities, even though they are not "enrolled" in the school. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::May I also direct you to a little something called [[WP:Reasonableness]]. Your incessant desire to pick a fight with me over something as trivial as the changing of the word "attend" to "enrolled" indicates that you are simply being unreasonable. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Please use the preview button when making edits, instead of several edits with "minor" changes. Please stop trying to speculate what my desires/intentions are. My sole intentention is to improve the article. You made three edits and I reverted one, so please stop trying to paint the picture of me as someone who is trying to "pick a fight with you." It would help if you could put your emotions aside when editing and making comments on the talk pages. This includes, but is not limited to FLAMING, offensive/inflammatory/sensationalist language, name-calling, etc...
::::Thanks [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I only made two edits, one was a '''m''' removal of an additional "and". You made '''14''' edits and I didn't come rushing in to revert any of them, now did I? I don't have to "speculate" as to what your intentions are, your actions speak volumes. You are not my Mommy or my Nanny and I don't need your condescending lecturing on how to edit when you are guilty of nit-picking, attempting to [[WP:CENSOR]] and targeting what I contribute. You have no idea what flaming is. Try getting out of your IB-centric bubble and visit the real world. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY. May I remind you that article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views and we abide by WP Etiquette and Talk Page guidelines. Comments such as:
::*But noooooooooo, you have to revert my edit and tag some BS reason to it.
::*Stop being an obstructionist and get over yourself.
::*you are simply being unreasonable.
::*You are not my Mommy or my Nanny and I don't ...
::*need your condescending lecturing on how to edit when you are guilty of nit-picking
::*You have no idea what flaming is
::*Try getting out of your IB-centric bubble and visit the real world.
:: are not about the improvement of this article and are unhelpful.
::In addition this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311387049&oldid=311016231] edit didn't help either.
::Respectfully, --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 15:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::Oh, that reminds me, I'm late for lunch at the clam bar. Bite me. ;-) [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== edit war ==
:::BRING IT ON LAMOME!!!! Going for 3RR? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 02:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Btw, just because you didn't "undo" this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311580965&oldid=311580754] and this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311585334&oldid=311580965] doesn't mean you avoid entering 3RR territory. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::Please, at the very least ObserverNY take this to a talk page. Your comments above are not about improving this article. Thanks. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 17:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Guess what Candorwein? Your re-pasted list of my comments above does nothing to improve this article either! Why don't you practice what you preach? Preaching is so much more fun than practicing, isn't it? OR you could delete/strike your entire post from above. Your choice. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Let's try to adhere to wikipedia's policies on [[WP:Etiquette|etiquette]]. At the least the article is worth reading. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 19:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Despite ObserverNY's attempt to bait me, it seems that there is no edit war or violation of [[WP:3RR]]--at least not on my part. No warnings on my talk page. No pending reports on me. And, as of now, ObserverNY's version "must be enrolled in" (instead of "must attend") still stands. So, I guess everyone is ok with that version? I don't know, since no one has commented on it, besides that it is a ridiculously petty argument. Just for the record, I did not make the change, I made the reversion to the original wording, which has been there for months. What is all this fuss about an edit war? And the flaming "bring it on La mome"--seriously--what is this, a really bad movie about dueling cheerleaders?
:::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 19:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::That's very good, LaMome. I'm so glad you clarified your secondary edit as a second reversion and not an "undo". I'm also thrilled to pieces that you realize you started a ''"ridiculously petty argument"'' which you escalated into an epoch tome here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Candorwien] No wonder nobody commented on it. So will you leave it alone now? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:53, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Back to UWC ==
To insert the information about the [[UWC]] and Hahn in the early development section requires a major re-working of the section. I think it is important, but I am unable to find the spirit to do it knowing it will only be attacked and disputed, despite the fact that it is verified, legitimate information. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]])ObserverNY
(adding to archive)[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 11:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
== early development re-wording ==
With all due respect Truthkeeper, the following paragraph reads very poorly, is full of run-on sentences and what seems to be non-notable information re: the $2500 UNESCO grant. ''In 1948, Marie-Thérèse Maurette created the framework for what would eventually become the IB Diploma Programme when she wrote Is There a Way of Teaching for Peace?, a handbook for UNESCO, and in that year also The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools "passed a resolution" for International School of Geneva (Ecolint) to begin the work of creating an international schools program.[8][9] In 1961, Desmond Cole-Baker of Ecolint initiated the work of developing the idea, and his colleague Robert Leach organised a conference in Geneva in 1962, at which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned.[8][10] Leach received a grant for $2500 from UNESCO for the conference; and they were interested enough in the idea to promise additional grants.[8]''
Who hosted the "Conference of Internationally Minded Schools"? Was it UNESCO? I didn't edit your work. I just thought I'd bring attention to this paragraph here.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools is the name of an organization to which Maurette belonged and because of which she wrote her booklet/essay. Which sentence is a run-on? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 18:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that all of this information refers to UNESCO, and can be rewritten in a clearer manner. Here is my suggestion:
::''In 1948, Marie-Thérèse Maurette created the framework for what would eventually become the IB Diploma Programme when she wrote Is There a Way of Teaching for Peace?, a handbook for UNESCO. Also in 1948, <s>UNESCO hosted</s> The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools <s>and </s>"passed a resolution" for the International School of Geneva (Ecolint) to develop an international schools program.[8][9] In 1961, Desmond Cole-Baker of Ecolint revitalized the international school concept. His colleague Robert Leach, organised a UNESCO funded conference in Geneva in 1962, at which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned.[8][10] As a result of the work achieved at the conference, additional funding was secured from UNESCO.[8]''
::You also might want to address what happened between 1948 and 1961. You will find the Kurt Hahn was influential during that period. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
The Conference of Internationally-minded Schools was not a conference nor was it funded by UNESCO; rather it was an organization for international schools. So, the piece stating that UNESCO hosted the international-minded schools conference is neither correct nor verifiable. The resolution that was passed was simply the result of a meeting based on questionaires sent to schools. As for stating "as a result of the work achieved...funding was..." if you'd like it to be that way, that's fine, but it is a passive construction unlike the current sentence. The rest is fine. If you make these changes I would ask that you be careful of ref placement, which brings me to an issue I'd like to have all the editors here comment on so we can have consensus: I reworked the section today to eliminate the choppiness in the writing, and I also moved the references to the ends of the sentences for better readability. But, I think we should have consensus about where to place references -- after each clause or place many references at the ends of sentences. Also, I've reformatted the Peterson and Fox sources to cite chapter titles, but don't know whether we want to do it so, or to use [[WP:CITESHORT]] with page numbers. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Thank you for the clarification. Please see my strikes above and see if the re-wording meets with your approval. None of the references would be changed. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Should be the Conference of International-minded.... not The Conference.... Also, still not crazy about replacing an active sentence w/ a passive one. Otherwise I don't mind the changes. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::With all due respect, UNESCO is an '''it''' not a '''they'''. Not quite sure what you mean by passive/active. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 10:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::The source used "they" as in the people (they) at Unesco liked what they saw; can't find the rule for passive/active here, tho know it's in one of the style articles. Essentially the verb should be active (i.e Unesco gave funding. Ask yourself who gave the funding, and make that act on the verb, if possible.) If you're interested I'm sure the rule is somewhere on the net. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 14:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Having worked in journalism, I was taught that organizations are never referred to with personal pronouns. So unless your source is specifically referring to the diplomats at UNESCO and not the organization itself, the authors of your source inappropriately applied the pronoun "they." I'm still confused as to what you are looking for with regards to the phrasing. Would you care to suggest an alternative? Thanks, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::The phrasing in the article now is an active sentence. If you want to replace with passive that's fine, but somebody at some point will come along and change it. The issue with it/they is due to [[WP:ENGVAR]] and see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Formal_and_notional_agreement this] explanation. Either is correct. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 18:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::You know, I'm really trying to work with you here, Truthkeeper. Can't you just offer up a sentence that you would be happier with? I don't CARE about 50 different rules. I want to know what would make YOU happy without specifically referring to the $2,500. I guess I'm just too stupid to understand what you are getting at and I'm tiring of playing your games. Please just re-write the sentence in a way you deem fit and let me see it. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::::I'm sorry, I didn't realise the $2500 was at issue here. Why don't you want that in? I rewrote the sentence yesterday and am fine with it as is. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 19:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
--[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 18:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
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