Content deleted Content added
MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 6 thread(s) from Talk:IB Diploma Programme. |
MalnadachBot (talk | contribs) m Fixed Lint errors in signatures. Approved trial for Task 2 |
||
| (6 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown) | |||
Line 67:
::::::::::The markup has been fixed as I had the destination wrong, and we can assume that from now on archiving will be automatic. Thanks ObserverNY for the minor barnstar. Also, some of you may have seen on my talkpage that I'm needed to copyedit another article, so I'll be gone from here for some time. Not emotionally involved, simply trying to get things set up to leave. If I'm needed please leave me a message. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 16:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Nice job, TK! We all really appreciate it, and the Minor Barnstar from ObserverNY was a great idea and certainly well-deserved (many times over, in fact)! Thanks also to [[user:xeno|<
== Decapitalization ==
Line 1,004:
:::::::::See? You simply cannot accept the facts in your own manual. The courses in question will be reflected in schools guides as IB SL Dance. No different than Dance 101. Done. Outta here. Don't care. Have fun storming the castle! Ciao! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 23:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::::This encyclopedia is not a course guide and hence the subjects are generic subject names, thus not capitalized. You've asked my opinion and I've given three/four times now. The article reflects the rules in style manuals and as such is fine in my opinion. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
== New approach to editing? ==
Perhaps we should try a different approach, one that avoids too much discussion on the talk pages, such as [[WP:1RR]] or [[WP:BRD]]? I think someone had suggested that earlier on, but it may have been missed or dismissed because it works best with experienced editors. At this point, I think the majority of editors are experienced. I don't include myself in that category, but I think I understand the concept and am willing to give it a try. I am going to go ahead and make some edits, based on discussions and suggestions that were made. If they are not to your liking, go ahead and revert and discuss here. A little less conversation and a little more ... editing? [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 19:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
:Good suggestions. I think we need to monitor how many edits we make to this talk page, compared to the number of edits made to the article itself. I'm at the wrong end of the continuum when it comes to talking versus editing, and will strive to do more constructive stuff - action not words! [[User:Ewen|Ewen]] ([[User talk:Ewen|talk]]) 19:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
::Hi, Ewen! Um, this may make our first interaction a bit awkward, since I suppose that you may have been trying to make a point. But I'm going to reinsert most of my comments that were deleted with your most recent edit. Here they are:
::La mome, I'm all for trying something else, since it seems like all other efforts have failed to maintain any reasonable degree of civility. I should point out that I'm a little concerned about [[WP:BRD]], based on this:
:::''BRD ... requires more '''diplomacy''' and skill to use successfully than other methods, and has more potential for failure.'' [emphasis mine]
::Diplomacy has historically been a problem here. But the following is also suggested, which may help:
:::''Some have even taken to simply declaring their intent by adding the shortcut "[[WP:BRD]]" at the front of their edit summary. This seems to help keep people from taking as much offense at proposed changes.''
::Of course, it continues:
:::''In a way, you're actively provoking another person with an edit they may (strongly) disagree on, so you're going to need to use all your tact to explain what you're aiming to achieve.''
::Tact--which runs hand in glove with diplomacy--is something that has been sorely lacking in many comments around here, I'm afraid. Still, I'm game. Let's give it a try! Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 19:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
== History Section Clarification ==
Quote> "In 1974, bilingual diplomas were introduced, allowing students to take one or more of their humanities or science subjects in a language other than their first."
First of all, I'm glad the frenzied talk is over and we can get back to our purpose. I will continue editing here if it stays calm like this.
About this sentence. If students are getting bilingual diplomas doesn't this imply that they have at least two languages that or (close to) mother-tongue level? I know that good bi or tri-lingual people actually have one language better than the others (although to you and I their languages would be indistinguishable from being native or very near native) but I'm ignoring this as it is a splitting hairs issue to some extent. If they have two essentially equal languages how can they ''"take one or more of their humanities or science subjects in a language other than their first"'' as they are both first languages?
Shouldn't it say something like'' "take one or more humanities subjects in either of their bilingual languages?"''
--[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 21:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:: I am also glad to see that things have calmed down. Candy, usually only one language is first (unless the person is raised in a bilingual family). It is quite possible for students to study geography or history in a language other than their first, provided, of course, that they are sufficiently fluent in this language; but by no means does it have to be near the level of their first one. For example, the school I went to used to offer (before my time) middle and high school geography and history in a foreign language that students started learning in second grade. Interestingly, this was the only option, and the idea was that this would help students learn the language even better, along with history and geography.[[User:Tvor65|Tvor65]] ([[User talk:Tvor65|talk]]) 21:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Candy, that section came from one the sources Uncle G provided. Before rewording the source should be checked to verify exactly what the meaning is here. Good catch, though. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Candy, that's an interesting point. I agree with TK that we need to make sure that it wouldn't contradict anything in the references. Assuming we find that it doesn't, how about this, to keep it as general as we can: "...''take some subjects in one language and other subjects in a different language''." Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 21:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::I don't have the Hill book that's published by Sage. This text is from Uncle G's suggested version for the history, the original of which I saved in my [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Truthkeeper88/IB_Sandbox#Uncle_G.27s_version sandbox]. So, in my view the section can/may be changed as long verifiable sources exist. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Great question! [http://www.ibo.org/diploma/recognition/guide/slidef.cfm This may help-]
:::::::"Bilingual diplomas are awarded for:
::::::::•two languages A1, or
::::::::•a language A1 taken together with a language A2, or
::::::::•a group 3 or 4 subject taken in a language other than the candidate's language A1, or
::::::::•an extended essay in a group 3 or group 4 subject written in a language other than the candidate's language A1."
::::::::Language A1 is first native language--A2 is second native language. As an aside, and purely from experience (haven't checked any research yet---)--It is rare that a bilingual person will be equally proficient in both languages (two languages A1). As a test, ask them which language they count in or do math equations in--that is their "true" first language.
::::::::Cheers-[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 22:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks La mome for the info on the bilingual degree. <br />
On another note: text has been added to the article about the United World College and the UN school in New York, neither of which began offering the IB until 1968 according to the sources we are using and which I've read. As currently written the information splits a source, I've changed it, ONY has changed back, and at this point I don't know what to do, but the information belongs in the section about the specific schools that first offered IB in the late 60s and in fact the UWC source verifies 1968 but not 1962 which is where it's currently placed. Some advice is welcome. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:La mome, I'm not sure we need quite that much [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310064166&oldid=310062427 detail] here--it seems excessive. Still, while I'm inclined to revert your edit, I mean no offense and will wait and listen to what you and other editors have to say. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 23:50, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
::No problem--instead of reverting, maybe we can come up with a less-detailed description of the IB Bilingual Diploma? I am at a loss for words right now, but if you want to try, be my guest! Otherwise, revert and we can look at it again at a later date...
::Ciao for now - [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 00:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Truthkeeper-I see your point. Also, as it is worded now, it seems like the IBDP was developed in 3 different schools simultaneously, whereas I believe it was developed ''at'' Ecolint, with educators from the other 2 schools going ''there'' to work with them. I am not sure how to fix it and am signing off for now. I'll look at it again tomorrow.
:::Cheers-[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 00:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Food for thought-
::::[http://www.uwc.org/who_we_are/history/international_baccalaureate_development.aspx Quote from here]:
::::"The IB Diploma was created by a group of teachers from three international schools - International School of Geneva, UWC of the Atlantic and the UN School of New York. It was founded in Geneva, Switzerland in 1968. Atlantic College was one of the seven schools that piloted the IB Diploma alongside UK A-levels, and became the first school in the world to abandon its own national curriculum in favour of the IB in 1971."
::::vs
::::[http://books.google.com/books?id=ueb7JiS2jhIC&pg=RA2-PA12&lpg=RA2-PA12&dq=Kurt+Hahn+International+Baccalaureate&source=bl&ots=PonJwoBSuD&sig=fb4EHqXZthFMbgPxMU7obWvPSEM&hl=en&ei=D2WUSpvEOoznlAfF3N26DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=Kurt%20Hahn%20International%20Baccalaureate&f=false Quote from here]: ‘The original idea for an international qualification….first outlined by a group of teachers at the International School in Geneva in '''1962'''. …. Further developments such as the ISES in '''1965''' and the involvement of the Atlantic College in Wales"…
:::: [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::What you've presented here is consistent with the timeline/history we've been working on, but now the article is not consistent as it has UWC Atlantic & the UN school offering IB in 1962, whereas in reality that didn't happen until 1968. I did edit the section but ONY has moved it back, and as ONY appears to be "done" with the discussion, I'm a bit stymied as how to proceed without simply deleting the edits. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks for the input with the Bilingual Diplomas. We can mark it as something to get back to. '''Perhaps we can create a list of to-do's as a banner at the top of the page which won't get archived? We can then focus on one or two of then at a time or an individual or groups can work on them together as they wish. It may even attract visitors to get involved editing?'''
::I've often heard exactly what you say about counting and maths to define the stronger language. My research tells me that if possible, for bilingual children, there is a benefit for having the relatively "harder" of the two languages should be the stronger. (My son is being raised bilingually and we're focusing on Mandarin - but fortunately it will truly be his mother-tongue.) I've also experienced students without a mother-tongue - they often have learning difficulties as they can't ground concepts effectively it seems. Ok, I'm off the point.
::However, my current school has about 25% bilingual diplomas each year. Many, but not all, of these students answer the question about counting with, "usually the language I am talking in at the time" - we don't do A2. I also find it odd as my German is OK (I do all my financial transactions in German for example) and I count in German (but I would never pass an A2 examination). Maths I don't do in any language - it's all images to me :)
::Regarding history. I'll try to get around to looking at that soonish. I don't really know what help I can offer though. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::I just got sucked in - in a nice way though. :) This may be old hat but have you viewed [[http://www.brandonsd.mb.ca/neelin/Admin/What%20is%20the%20History%20of%20IB.doc.]]. I like the way it phrases the IB and it may even have met ONY's approval of no self-serving advertisements.
::''"Founded in the 1960's, the IBO grew out of international school efforts to establish a common curriculum and university entry credential for geographically mobile students. Beyond practical considerations, international educators were also motivated by an idealistic vision: they hoped that a shared academic experience emphasizing critical thinking and exposure to a variety of viewpoints would foster tolerance and inter-cultural understanding among young people. Concentration on the last two years of secondary school sought to build a comprehensive curriculum - leading to a baccalaureate - that could be administered in any country and recognized by universities in every country."'' Trouble is I don't see I reliable citation for where this comes from (school's are not necessarily good sources of information as they have their own agendas), I like the phrasing though as a relatively straight-forward description of its development. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::I made some edits based on the dates and sources listed in my post above. Let me know what you think.
:::I like the wording of Candy's statement and we might be able to weave some of it into what we already have. The problem is we have so many historical details and that statement you provided is a good general description of the history/background of IB.
:::I made changes to the "awards" section to separate the types of awards-diploma, bilingual diploma and certificate. Given that there are 25% bilingual diplomas in your school, and a similar number in international schools around the world, I think that maybe my detailed description of what a bilingual diploma is isn't so bad after all?!
:::I've seen those to-do lists elsewhere and that was what I was trying to do here--but then I realized if it is in the body of the talkpage it will get archived. Can someone make a "to-do list" box?
:::Cheers [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 20:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Hi La Mome. Actually, I found your response about bilingual diplomas to be very clear and agree with it. Sorry I didn't state that clearly but rambled on with my own agenda! The big difference in our school is that they are all A1 bilinguals though. As an aside I once taught a Serbian student who went to a Russian Kindergarten, primary schooled in Italy and Germany and secondary schooled in English. She learned French as her B language and Spanish for fun. Serbian, Russian, German, Italian and English were all A1 level yet she ended up studying in the UK and getting a doctorate in genetics. Bright as a button!
::::yes, it's the box we need.
::::Please note I made a couple of edits on the page. Should actually be minor but I didn't check the box on purpose as editing here needs to be as transparent as possible. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 20:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::I know where to find the box. Will do so later (am just logging off for a little while). Also, looks like the edit warring has started again -- very tedious! [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
== Edit war ==
I've [[WP:BOLD|bold]]ly deleted the history section for the time being. It can be added back later. In my view comments such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310243555&oldid=310239910 this] are too inflammatory and beyond any sort of spirit of civility. Rather than having an edit war, the section is gone. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Deleting an entire section is entirely uncivil and I have reverted your edit. YOU PEOPLE didn't WANT discussion. The second I say I'm DONE you turn this talk page into a forum. Stop being such hypocrites. I added perfectly fine facts with verifiable citations. You have a problem with Hahn? You have a problem with Desmond Cole? What is your problem? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::See your talk page to see what my problem is with you ObserverNY. I should add that I don't approve in the wholesale deletion of the talk page by Truthkeeper. I hope TK will revert that as it was without discussion. Sometimes things are done in frustration and anger. TK seems to be very reasonable. We all have our moments (don't we?) --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Why I deleted an entire section that I've spent a long time working on: [[User:ObserverNY]] added text into the middle of a sentence thereby splitting the source. In addition, [[User:ObserverNY]]'s edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968. Last night I took the time to move the text to the appropriate place [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310049637&oldid=310049380 here]. That edit was reverted by [[User:ObserverNY]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=next&oldid=310051385 here]. Today, La mome, who has also worked on the history section moved the text so it would be in the appropriate section. That edit was reverted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310235749&oldid=310235154 here]. In my view, if a section is controversial and if an editor wants to engage in an edit war, then the section can be removed for a short period and replaced later (which is what I'd intended). Looking at the edit histories, [[User:ObserverNY]] has broken the 3R rule today. That's edit warring. I've tried very hard to be even keelend and civil, but when the inappropriate comments were brought to my user page, I realised that perhaps being even keeled doesn't always do the job. At any rate, the section is restored. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::Oh crap TK. I made a facetious remark on your talk page today and forgot to sign it. I hope you weren't reacting to that thinking it was ONY? If you were mea culpa. I'll be a lot more sensitive in future. /spanks self --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::''"In addition, User:ObserverNY's edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968."'' You are incorrect, TK. The UWC cite mentions the 3 schools, therefore your addition of {{cite}} is uncalled for. I changed 1962 to "the early 1960's". I believe 1962-1964 qualifies as the early 1960's, no? The following sentence to which I added Desmond Cole of UNIS with the Jay Mathews cite, further establishes the time frame for the participation of those 3 schools in the IBDP's development, re, those who formed ISES in .... 1964... early 1960's. I thought you would endeavor to actually read the very good secondary sources I provided, but I guessed wrong. Oh well. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::No, I mean [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] which is actually addressed to you but on my talkpage, and not at all appropriate. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::The "edit war" was started over the inclusion of these sentences:
::::"The Diploma Programme's development began in the early 1960's at the International School of Geneva (Ecolint), United World College (UWC) of the Atlantic and the United Nations International School (UNIS) of New York. Alec Peterson, author of Schools Across Frontiers, credits the influence of the curriculum model developed at the UWC of the Atlantic as serving as the eventual framework of the IBDP as well as the work of his mentor educationist Kurt Hahn, who was instrumental in shaping the college’s philosophy."
::::Truthkeeper and I explained both on the talkpage and in the edit summaries why these two sentences needed to be reworded and moved to a chronologically appropriate part of the article.
::::More precisely, according to sources already included in the article, the development of the IBDP began at Ecolint in 1962 and continued later (1965)with UWC and UNIS, when Mayer started his study. The source listed from the UWC does not state that it was developed ''at'' those schools, but rather ''by'' educators ''from'' those schools. Nuance.
::::The Pound source is quoting from the first edition of the Peterson book. In my opinion, Pound and as a result we, would be giving undue weight to the UWC by including it there. The UWC is linked to twice already--in the external links section and in the IB series section. Why? Undue weight is also given to Hahn here, as he was instrumental in shaping the ''UWC's'' philosophy. The person from UWC- Atlantic College who should be mentioned and who is not is the 3rd Desmond from the "humorous interlude" in the archives-- Desmond Hoare-- the headmaster at UWC.
::::I propose that we collaboratively decide where and how to incorporate those two sentences. My proposal is the version reverted by ONY.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 23:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::As an unabashed fan of [[Paul_Erdos#Collaborators|collaboration]], I thank La mome for clearly explaining the issues with some of the recent edits and once again hope that we can work together to reach consensus here, while limiting the drama as much as is possible. La mome's suggestion to use, for example, [[WP:BRD]], includes the third letter (D) of the acronym, which refers to "discuss," thus there is no reason to suggest that discussion was not welcome. It is instead clear that [[WP:BRD]] specifically ''requires'' discussion. So, please, let's make use of that part of the process, too--without invective, accusation, hyperbole, or other various types of nastiness. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 00:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Wrote this before CB's comment above, so it might be more abrasive than it needs, but it does explain the history:
:::::::I don't object to the content; I do object to placement of the content. I moved the content and my edit was reverted. This is now the third/fourth/fifth time that the history section has been muddled up. It's very simple: it's history, and as such should follow some sort of chronological order and that order must rely on verifiable sources. If Pound is quoting Peterson, then we have the Peterson source in place, the chronology was correct: i.e. Leach had a conference in 1962; ISES was formed in the mid sixties; IB became an entity at the end of 67 beginning of 68. Peterson explains the UNIS connection on page 22 [http://books.google.com/books?id=nTUjMNjNo3EC&dq=peterson+international+baccalaureate&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=AJVnSomID8KRtge16Z33Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#v=onepage&q=&f=false here]: in 1964, the Ford Foundation asked [[Harlan Hanson]] and Desmond Cole join the group in Geneva at [[Ecolint]] as the Ford Foundation was investing millions in UNIS and they considered the "new international university entrance examination" to be appropriate at UNIS. So, the UNIS group didn't begin IB -- Ford asked that two people be sent to Geneva (Hanson & Cole) and contribute to work being done there. I have absolutely no objection to this being added to the article in the chronologically appropriate place. Will read Hill, Peterson, Fox & Pound re; the Atlantic college involvement and respond later, but at this point I think it's better to synthesize the material appropriately before adding potentially to the incorrect spot. Apologies, btw for removing the offending section, but it seemed the only option at that moment. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::LaMome and Truthkeeper are incorrect in their allegations about the lack of influence of Kurt Hahn and Alec Peterson (the father of the IBDP) and their insistence on 1968 and removing my edits to put somewhere else. The UWC was founded in 1962 by Hahn. Between 1962 and 1964, he joined forced with the others (including Cole of UNIS) to form ISES. They ALL worked on the IBDP's development. You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence. History is history and it would be CIVIL of TK and LaMome to take the time to actually read the references I took time to research instead of arbitrarily deleting them. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I have read them. The dates don't match up. If you want to shove something in where it doesn't belong, then the section should be removed. I've said more than once, I don't object to the content, but it should be placed appropriately. Please don't accuse me of not reading sources again when I've read Hill, Pound, Fox, Peterson and others, sources you explicitly stated you had no time to read. Were you to take the time to read the sources I've mentioned you'd see the error. Edit warring with you is exhausting and draining and in my view I'd rather delete the entire section again rather than arguing with you. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
TK- I made a comment to you on my talk page. Please read. Yeah, editing with you is exhausting - like what I had to go through to prove to you that a [[foundation]] isn't a [[foundation]] without a Board of Directors (President), and only after a lengthy battle did you finally admit to someone else on your talk page, not here, that my point was justified. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I don't have a problem with the inclusion of Peterson and I never did. On Page 17 of ''Schools across frontiers'' he says: "A committee of sponsors was formed drawn from members of various international organisations based in Geneva, but the driving force in the transition from an idea, ...to a reality was not international organisations nor, as in the case of the Atlantic College, a group of influential opinion leaders with royal patronage, but the teachers at Ecolint, led by Cole- Baker....As a result of the co-operative efforts of this group, 1962, the year of the foundation of Atlantic cllege, also saw the first small conference in Geneva, organised by the teachers in Ecolint's social studies department, under their Chairman Bob Leach, which made specific mention of the words "International Baccalaureate."
:This article is about the IBDP, not the UWC. While there is no question that their histories are inextricably connected (the full title of Peterson's book is ''Schools across frontiers: the story of the IB and the UWC''), it does not say on pages 16-17 in the second edition, at least as far as I can see that Hahn was a founding figure in ISES. Yes, Peterson was a big fan of his. But Hahn is not listed in the back as one of the "people who made IB." There is however, a picture of the "three planners of the café de remor"--Peterson, Cole-Baker and Hanson.
:I read the sources you provided and made comments above on how the wording in our article does not "jive" with what was actually said in those sources, as well as others here.
:The whole reason for the [[WP:1RR]] was to avoid this kind of back and forth and especially edit warring.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
<s>::ObserverNY: I don't remember the foundation discussion. However, if editing with me is so exhausting, then perhaps you won't mind if I revert all the many edits where I've cleaned up your cite mistakes among others. I will now drop out here, as obviously I have nothing to add. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::Btw -- did my comment on my talkpage include profanity? Have I demanded an apology ad nauseam? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)</s>
:::"You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence."[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::Why would we do that?
:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310267776&oldid=310259019 This comment] was uncalled for. I believe you owe me an apology and I would appreciate it if you would strike it or delete it from your talk page.
:::Thanks - [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I've restored an earlier version of the article by Candorwien, since the Peterson source does not say that the [[Atlantic_College|United World College of the Atlantic (aka "Atlantic College")]] was involved in the 1962 developments. Also, the UWC web reference does not specify early dates. While it's very clear that Atlantic College was involved in later developments, this spot in the history isn't the right place for it. From Peterson, it seems that Atlantic College was the ___location for a curriculum conference in 1965 (two conferences, actually, one in the spring and one in the fall). While I may have missed some earlier reference to Atlantic College's direct involvement with the development of IB, this is the earliest mention I've found so far. Again, Atlantic College should be mentioned in the "Early development" section, but it should be mentioned a bit later than it was in the version that I just changed. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:In re-reading Peterson, I'm not sure that Atlantic College hosted the 1965 spring (March) conference, but they definitely participated along with Ecolint. Atlantinc College did host the curriculum conference in October 1965, though. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
== Kurt Hahn ==
http://www.outward-bound.org/docs/staff/kurthahn-essay.htm
In 1962, at the age of 76, Hahn established Atlantic College in Wales, with the help of Sir Lawrence Darvall and many others. Atlantic College was the first of seven United World Colleges and was designed to bridge the international gap between secondary education and university level study by offering a universally recognized degree, the International Baccalaureate.
http://www.ibo.org/council/peterson/documents/Peterson_biography_eFINAL.pdf
He (Peterson) met Kurt Hahn at a conference on international education in Belgium in 1957. Through this
acquaintance with Hahn’s educational philosophy together with his military connections Peterson
visited the new Atlantic College at St Donats (Wales) for the first time in 1961 (before any students
had been enrolled). Kurt Hahn had helped to establish the school with Rear-Admiral '''Desmond
Hoare''' as founding headmaster and '''Robert Blackburn''' as deputy headmaster. During the summer of
1962 Peterson worked with Blackburn to provide a broad academic curriculum to the students who
were to enter this first of the United World Colleges in September of the same year.
Peterson was a staunch campaigner against what he regarded as the over-specialization of British
education at pre-university level. In 1960 he published a report Arts and Science Sides in the Sixth Form
based on research funded by the Gulbenkian Foundation. '''It is noteworthy how closely the content of
the report resembles not only the philosophy but also the structure of the IB Diploma Programme,
which had only begun to be elaborated a few years later.''' [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== IB's authorization "standards" ==
I just received an e-mail from London pointing out an IB school in the UK which was authorized in June, 2008. http://www.ibo.org/school/000484/ I was also referred to an article that hit the UK press during the 2 year IB authorization process: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23384657-details/We+do+use+books+that+call+Jews+%27apes%27+admits+head+of+Islamic+school/article.do
Frankly, this is outrageous. Is this the sort of "cultural understanding" IB is willing to slap its label on, as long as the cheques are good? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:Observer, this is [[WP:NOTFORUM|not a forum]]. That second link does not mention IB specifically anywhere on it, so any sort of statement you'd want to make about connecting the IBO link to the article is [[WP:SYN|synthesis of sources]], which is a type of [[WP:OR]] - and is inadmissible. Again, this is not a place for you to discuss your outrage regarding "cultural understanding," so take it elsewhere. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::ROTFLMAO! What a perfect example! Well done HA! ''The UN's stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.'' '''IB aims to create intercultural understanding and world peace but authorizes schools that breed hatred.''' ROTFLMAO! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
HA - well done again, HA. If the information cannot be addressed or incorporated into the article as per [[WP:SYN]] I respect and abide by that policy. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 11:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== IBDP article and talk page ==
Nice job Cinchbug and Candorwien (regarding recent edits). While the history of the UWC is fascinating and very much connected to the development of the IB curriculum, we can only add here what is verifiable and accurately reflects what is said in the sources. Thank you for remaining focused on improving the article and maintaining a collaborative approach to editing. HelloAnnyong, I applaud your efforts as well. What can we do to discourage editors from climbing soap boxes? Didn't check before writing this---have we abandoned the "to-do box" idea, or is it in place? Cheers! [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 22:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:TK has placed the box at the top of the page. I encourage editors to use it--but please use the "Preview" button before saving changes, so that you can learn how it works! My experience with these pages suggests that editors too often don't bother to review their changes using "Preview," resulting in a great number of otherwise unnecessary additional changes. Nevertheless, thanks to TK for the box! Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 23:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
== "must attend" vs "must be enrolled in" ==
I changed "attend" to "must be enrolled" for a reason, one which I didn't think needed to be dragged out into a lengthy discussion. But noooooooooo, you have to revert my edit and tag some BS reason to it. Stop being an obstructionist and get over yourself. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:What is your reason? Mine is [[WP:TRITE]]--as in it is more consise to say that students must physically attend an IB school to participate in the program. As far as I know, the online courses are not open to students not attending an IB school. "Attend" also has fewer words than "be enrolled in". Please stop the name-calling. It is also rude to use an editor's name as the section heading of an article talk page. If others prefer "be enrolled in" then so be it.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::Re "online courses section" - it states: ''Eventually, the IB expects to offer the online courses to students who are not enrolled in an IB World School''. Ergo, my REASON'''S''' for changing out "must attend" to "be enrolled in" ('''be''' and '''in''' being the only ADDITIONAL words) which you felt the compulsion to revert, is twofold - 1. Consistency in language 2. A homeschooled child may "attend" a school for certain activities, even though they are not "enrolled" in the school. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::May I also direct you to a little something called [[WP:Reasonableness]]. Your incessant desire to pick a fight with me over something as trivial as the changing of the word "attend" to "enrolled" indicates that you are simply being unreasonable. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Please use the preview button when making edits, instead of several edits with "minor" changes. Please stop trying to speculate what my desires/intentions are. My sole intentention is to improve the article. You made three edits and I reverted one, so please stop trying to paint the picture of me as someone who is trying to "pick a fight with you." It would help if you could put your emotions aside when editing and making comments on the talk pages. This includes, but is not limited to FLAMING, offensive/inflammatory/sensationalist language, name-calling, etc...
::::Thanks [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I only made two edits, one was a '''m''' removal of an additional "and". You made '''14''' edits and I didn't come rushing in to revert any of them, now did I? I don't have to "speculate" as to what your intentions are, your actions speak volumes. You are not my Mommy or my Nanny and I don't need your condescending lecturing on how to edit when you are guilty of nit-picking, attempting to [[WP:CENSOR]] and targeting what I contribute. You have no idea what flaming is. Try getting out of your IB-centric bubble and visit the real world. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::ObserverNY. May I remind you that article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views and we abide by WP Etiquette and Talk Page guidelines. Comments such as:
::*But noooooooooo, you have to revert my edit and tag some BS reason to it.
::*Stop being an obstructionist and get over yourself.
::*you are simply being unreasonable.
::*You are not my Mommy or my Nanny and I don't ...
::*need your condescending lecturing on how to edit when you are guilty of nit-picking
::*You have no idea what flaming is
::*Try getting out of your IB-centric bubble and visit the real world.
:: are not about the improvement of this article and are unhelpful.
::In addition this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311387049&oldid=311016231] edit didn't help either.
::Respectfully, --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 15:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
::Oh, that reminds me, I'm late for lunch at the clam bar. Bite me. ;-) [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== edit war ==
:::BRING IT ON LAMOME!!!! Going for 3RR? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 02:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Btw, just because you didn't "undo" this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311580965&oldid=311580754] and this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=311585334&oldid=311580965] doesn't mean you avoid entering 3RR territory. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::Please, at the very least ObserverNY take this to a talk page. Your comments above are not about improving this article. Thanks. --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 17:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Guess what Candorwein? Your re-pasted list of my comments above does nothing to improve this article either! Why don't you practice what you preach? Preaching is so much more fun than practicing, isn't it? OR you could delete/strike your entire post from above. Your choice. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Let's try to adhere to wikipedia's policies on [[WP:Etiquette|etiquette]]. At the least the article is worth reading. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 19:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Despite ObserverNY's attempt to bait me, it seems that there is no edit war or violation of [[WP:3RR]]--at least not on my part. No warnings on my talk page. No pending reports on me. And, as of now, ObserverNY's version "must be enrolled in" (instead of "must attend") still stands. So, I guess everyone is ok with that version? I don't know, since no one has commented on it, besides that it is a ridiculously petty argument. Just for the record, I did not make the change, I made the reversion to the original wording, which has been there for months. What is all this fuss about an edit war? And the flaming "bring it on La mome"--seriously--what is this, a really bad movie about dueling cheerleaders?
:::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 19:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::::::That's very good, LaMome. I'm so glad you clarified your secondary edit as a second reversion and not an "undo". I'm also thrilled to pieces that you realize you started a ''"ridiculously petty argument"'' which you escalated into an epoch tome here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Candorwien] No wonder nobody commented on it. So will you leave it alone now? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:53, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Back to UWC ==
To insert the information about the [[UWC]] and Hahn in the early development section requires a major re-working of the section. I think it is important, but I am unable to find the spirit to do it knowing it will only be attacked and disputed, despite the fact that it is verified, legitimate information. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]])ObserverNY
(adding to archive)[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 11:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
== early development re-wording ==
With all due respect Truthkeeper, the following paragraph reads very poorly, is full of run-on sentences and what seems to be non-notable information re: the $2500 UNESCO grant. ''In 1948, Marie-Thérèse Maurette created the framework for what would eventually become the IB Diploma Programme when she wrote Is There a Way of Teaching for Peace?, a handbook for UNESCO, and in that year also The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools "passed a resolution" for International School of Geneva (Ecolint) to begin the work of creating an international schools program.[8][9] In 1961, Desmond Cole-Baker of Ecolint initiated the work of developing the idea, and his colleague Robert Leach organised a conference in Geneva in 1962, at which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned.[8][10] Leach received a grant for $2500 from UNESCO for the conference; and they were interested enough in the idea to promise additional grants.[8]''
Who hosted the "Conference of Internationally Minded Schools"? Was it UNESCO? I didn't edit your work. I just thought I'd bring attention to this paragraph here.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools is the name of an organization to which Maurette belonged and because of which she wrote her booklet/essay. Which sentence is a run-on? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 18:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that all of this information refers to UNESCO, and can be rewritten in a clearer manner. Here is my suggestion:
::''In 1948, Marie-Thérèse Maurette created the framework for what would eventually become the IB Diploma Programme when she wrote Is There a Way of Teaching for Peace?, a handbook for UNESCO. Also in 1948, <s>UNESCO hosted</s> The Conference of Internationally Minded Schools <s>and </s>"passed a resolution" for the International School of Geneva (Ecolint) to develop an international schools program.[8][9] In 1961, Desmond Cole-Baker of Ecolint revitalized the international school concept. His colleague Robert Leach, organised a UNESCO funded conference in Geneva in 1962, at which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned.[8][10] As a result of the work achieved at the conference, additional funding was secured from UNESCO.[8]''
::You also might want to address what happened between 1948 and 1961. You will find the Kurt Hahn was influential during that period. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 22:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
The Conference of Internationally-minded Schools was not a conference nor was it funded by UNESCO; rather it was an organization for international schools. So, the piece stating that UNESCO hosted the international-minded schools conference is neither correct nor verifiable. The resolution that was passed was simply the result of a meeting based on questionaires sent to schools. As for stating "as a result of the work achieved...funding was..." if you'd like it to be that way, that's fine, but it is a passive construction unlike the current sentence. The rest is fine. If you make these changes I would ask that you be careful of ref placement, which brings me to an issue I'd like to have all the editors here comment on so we can have consensus: I reworked the section today to eliminate the choppiness in the writing, and I also moved the references to the ends of the sentences for better readability. But, I think we should have consensus about where to place references -- after each clause or place many references at the ends of sentences. Also, I've reformatted the Peterson and Fox sources to cite chapter titles, but don't know whether we want to do it so, or to use [[WP:CITESHORT]] with page numbers. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 23:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
:::Thank you for the clarification. Please see my strikes above and see if the re-wording meets with your approval. None of the references would be changed. Regards, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 01:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::Should be the Conference of International-minded.... not The Conference.... Also, still not crazy about replacing an active sentence w/ a passive one. Otherwise I don't mind the changes. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::With all due respect, UNESCO is an '''it''' not a '''they'''. Not quite sure what you mean by passive/active. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 10:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::The source used "they" as in the people (they) at Unesco liked what they saw; can't find the rule for passive/active here, tho know it's in one of the style articles. Essentially the verb should be active (i.e Unesco gave funding. Ask yourself who gave the funding, and make that act on the verb, if possible.) If you're interested I'm sure the rule is somewhere on the net. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 14:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Having worked in journalism, I was taught that organizations are never referred to with personal pronouns. So unless your source is specifically referring to the diplomats at UNESCO and not the organization itself, the authors of your source inappropriately applied the pronoun "they." I'm still confused as to what you are looking for with regards to the phrasing. Would you care to suggest an alternative? Thanks, [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 17:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::The phrasing in the article now is an active sentence. If you want to replace with passive that's fine, but somebody at some point will come along and change it. The issue with it/they is due to [[WP:ENGVAR]] and see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences#Formal_and_notional_agreement this] explanation. Either is correct. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 18:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::You know, I'm really trying to work with you here, Truthkeeper. Can't you just offer up a sentence that you would be happier with? I don't CARE about 50 different rules. I want to know what would make YOU happy without specifically referring to the $2,500. I guess I'm just too stupid to understand what you are getting at and I'm tiring of playing your games. Please just re-write the sentence in a way you deem fit and let me see it. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 19:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::::::I'm sorry, I didn't realise the $2500 was at issue here. Why don't you want that in? I rewrote the sentence yesterday and am fine with it as is. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 19:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
--[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 18:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
| |||