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*You can make the case for 'zh-Latn' as both are cases of [[Chinese Romanisation]].
* 'yue' is being used now in the sandbox and doesn't cause any problems but that doesn't mean it's being recognised, it may just being treated as unknown: {{lang|yue|Gwong²zau¹}}
*WP elsewhere uses 'zh-yue', e.g. in the barely used {{tl|ISO 639 name zh-yue}} (which gives '{{ISO 639 name
*Looking at the yue entry on that list, 'yue' as a language own gives 'zh' as the macrolanguage, so maybe adding a script tag to one or both describes it better
** 'yue-Latn': {{lang|yue-Latn|Gwong²zau¹}}
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:::Firefox 29.0.1 here. When I'm logged in, I'm using the Monobook skin, but that doesn't seem to have anything to do with this issue, since if I log out, the pinyin appears exactly the same whilst in the Vector skin. All of the font display settings in Firefox are default, they've never been tinkered. It probably doesn't matter, but I'm running Windows 7 with a Japanese system locale. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 14:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
::::Using Firefox 29.0.1 myself, with Mac OS 10.9.2. You don't need to log out to test other skins: go to the testcases, [[Template:Zh/testcases]], and expand the [show] for 'More information and options'. It has links to view the testcases with the various skins. This can be used with any page, but testcase pages supply the links for you. Note that since the module has been updated from the sandbox there's no difference between the two sides at the moment. I doubt the skin makes any difference; I had a look at their css and could see nothing related to language. Also the differences between them is much less that there used to be: I remember there being skins with serif body fonts and much more variation in styles but they've been removed.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 14:50, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
:::::I think the font in question is one that's bundled with Microsoft Windows, so you might be seeing something different to me. I can't recall the exact name of the font right now, but pretty much every single Chinese website (Sina.com, People's Daily, Xinhua, Chinese Wikipedia, etc) has alphanumeric characters display in it, at least in Mozilla Firefox and Google Chrome. (I think Internet Explorer 11 uses some MSHeiTi gothic font instead) As an example, [http://i.imgur.com/kjQi9DO.png here's People's Daily].<p>Now, as far as I know, this font does not properly support Latin letters with diacritics (i.e. French, Spanish, and Hanyu Pinyin), which means that Firefox grabs some other font to display those individual letters only. This is why some letters in pinyin [http://i.imgur.com/pAn6XNU.png are displayed with a different height] when in normal style, and end up having different thicknesses when in italic style. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 15:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)</p>
:::::And if you want to compare the default fonts that Internet Explorer 11 and Mozilla Firefox choose to use, [http://i.imgur.com/WzXt9Qd.png here's the Chinese Wikipedia front page on Vector skin]: left is IE11, right is FF. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 15:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
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I don't use windows but rather Ubuntu Linux. I checked the display in both Chrome and Firefox and in Firefox I turned on tools/web developer/inspector/fonts to see what font was loaded where. For the English and pinyin it is loading the same font – "DejaVu Sans". For the Chinese characters Firefox loads "AR PL UKai CN". I have a Chinese windows 7 PC my wife uses so I will check that tonight and compare. It looks like this is a bug in the Windows version of Firefox. It might be visually fixed by adding a font-family style to the span outputted by the template to ensure a sans-serif font is loaded. [[User:Rincewind42|Rincewind42]] ([[User talk:Rincewind42|talk]]) 04:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
:Oh right, now I remember what the name of the font was - it's SimSun. Right now, Firefox renders all the pinyin in SimSun, anything within the lang-ja parameter of the {{tl|nihongo}} template as [[:zh:微软哥特体|MS PGothic]], anything monospace as [[Courier New]], and everything else in Arial. Previously, the pinyin would also be rendered in Arial, which properly supported the diacritics.<p>In case this information is relevant, simplified Chinese is being displayed in [[:File:Simsun.svg|SimSun]], traditional Chinese is displayed in [[:zh:新細明體|PMingLiU]] ([http://i.imgur.com/6Ve7S0I.png which also cannot properly display pinyin]), and if anyone attempts to write pinyin in [[Georgia (typeface)|Georgia Italic]] (see [[#Abbreviating the writing systems]] section above), the diacritic letters are displayed in Times New Roman Italic. --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 06:27, 16 May 2014 (UTC)</p>
::I checked on my wife's PC running Windows 7 (in Chinese mode) with IE11, the latest Firefox and Chrome. For some reason her version of Chrome uses a horrible courier like font for all of Wikipedia but doesn't vary the font for the pinyin. IE11 displays correctly too. However, in Firefox I did duplicate the bug that {{u|benlisquare}} is seeing. The pinyin is rendered in SimSun the same as the simplified Chinese which is not correct. In addition the Tongyong Pinyin and Wade-Giles is also displayed in SimSun.
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:Here if I add ital=no then it is in italics and without ital=no it is not italics. Instead of turning on/off italics as expected, we are reversing the existing setting in an unexpected way.
:In addition I am worried about the usefulness of this feature and the potential for abuse/misuse. The above example, where the zh template is nested inside italics should never exist. Are there any examples of this use in the wild? Also foreign words within tables aren't exempt form italics so this shouldn't be used there. Even when we are dealing with propor nouns, which aren't in italics, the contents of the zh template isn't that sentence word but rather falls under [[MOS:ITAL]]/Words as words and so would be in italics even if they were English words. This is the difference between [[Use–mention distinction|'using' a word and 'mentioning']] a word. So we correctly have, "The Premier of China was Zhou Enlai (<nowiki>{{s=周恩来|p=Zhōu Ēnlái}}</nowiki>)." Nobody would argue other than ''Zhou Enlai'' is a proper noun but in the Chinese language. However before the brackets ''Zhou Enlai'' is used in the sentence as a proper noun and within the brackets ''Zhou Enlai'' is mentioned as a word, as it is too just a word as a word, not a name, in this sentence.
:In short, I can't see any good use for this addition and if there are rare occasions where the text shouldn't be in italics then the editor can always use {{tl|noitalic}} to fix that single instance. [[User:Rincewind42|Rincewind42]] ([[User talk:Rincewind42|talk]]) 06:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
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===Latn problem===
There's a really big problem here when it comes to using any of the Asian language HTML codes and their romanizations in that when you use zh-Latn or ja-Latn or ko-Latn it forces browsers to encode the text as if it was zh, ja, or ko and draw on the fonts used to display those languages rather than the default font. Right now, all pinyin parsed through this module for users of Firefox is being parsed as SimSun (at least on my end).—[[User:Ryulong|<
:{{lang|zh-latn|It's something happening for all Windows users of Mozilla Firefox, including myself and [[#Font?|a few others who've made mentions]] earlier. I personally feel that SimSun looks really ugly for alphanumeric characters, so something should probably be done about it. I'm not going to switch browsers just for this, but it is quite annoying to see SimSun in the middle of a paragraph otherwise written entirely in Arial.}} --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 08:57, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
::{{lang|ja-Latn|Try MS Mincho/Gothic or Meiryo or whatever I did that screwed up the fonts when I copied them from my old XP to my Vista machine. I can't believe that we have to explain this to people who happen to use other browsers and they wonder why you shouldn't encode the alphanumeric characters as CJK even if in their mind "It's not English so it should be tagged as Japanese" (like every time I spoke with Pigsonthewing when he made [[mono no aware]].}}—[[User:Ryulong|<
: The way it should be working is that browsers should be recognising the 'Latn' part and so rendering as Latin, i.e. European, text. The Latn subtag has been around for nine years so isn't new, and was designed precisely for this, so browsers would know it was Chinese (or Japanese or Korean) but Romanised so does not need to use Chinese/Japanese/Korean fonts.
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: I wouldn't worry about it. Use whichever makes sense. I tend to use lang for single instances of Chinese or pinyin as it's shorter and simpler. In general performance is not something editors should worry about; that's for the people running the servers, who can actually study where the bottlenecks are and come up with solutions whether it's hardware or software such as optimisations to the source code. Very occasionally pages hit one of the limits of the software and get added to a list or tracking category, such as those here: [[Special:TrackingCategories]]. If this happens to a page you're working on then it probably needs addressing but otherwise don't worry about performance.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 19:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
== Italics summary ==
I've broken this out into a new section to summarise things. Based on the above discussions, surveys of existing use, etc. I've undone the <code>ital=no</code> option as unnecessary. It's been in for years, except with <code>noital=yes</code> to activate it, and never used. This is largely as it was added but not documented so the only way to discover it was via a note on the talk page or a careful examination of the template code. But the fact it was ''never'' used, or requested since, suggests there's no need for it. It could be added at a later date if there's demand for it but that's a separate discussion.
So the changes in the sandbox are just the additional italicisations for the other romanisations, for the reasons given above: consistency, to distinguish them from the labels, and to agree with [[MOS:FOREIGN]]. The other option to make it consistent would be to remove italics from pinyin but that would be far more disruptive a change, with pinyin being far more common than the other Romanisations, and does not agree with the style guidelines.
Does that seem OK ? I'm keen to get this merged into the main module, for the reasons above and as it arose from the language tagging so is in a way part of that. Get this in and I'd consider all the fields working properly - properly formatted, properly tagged with the appropriate language tag.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 19:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
{{edit template-protected|answered=yes}}
Please update the module from the sandbox to introduce the additional italicisations as summarised above. The main discussion is at [[#Italicisation]], where there was broad agreement with only one objection which was addressed, before getting sidetracked with the ital=no/noital=yes discussion.--<small>[[User:JohnBlackburne|JohnBlackburne]]</small><sup>[[User_talk:JohnBlackburne|words]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/JohnBlackburne|deeds]]</sub> 17:42, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ETp --> [[User:Jackmcbarn|Jackmcbarn]] ([[User talk:Jackmcbarn|talk]]) 18:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
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