Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desktop Linux: Difference between revisions
Content deleted Content added
Re |
MalnadachBot (talk | contribs) m Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12) |
||
| (28 intermediate revisions by 9 users not shown) | |||
Line 1:
<div class="boilerplate afd vfd xfd-closed" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''
<!--Template:Afd top
Note: If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]]. When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
The result was '''Whatever the hell [[User:Dsimic]]s said, yeah, that's the consensus, do that.'''. v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 17:22, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
===[[Desktop Linux]]===
:{{la|Desktop Linux}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desktop Linux|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2013
:({{Find sources|Desktop Linux}})
'''Delete''' for being [[WP:POVFORK]]. Title and lead section of the article has no connection to its contents
I was tempted to nominate this article for deletion under [[WP:CSD#G1|CSD:G1]] but obviously the word "Linux" in the title is bound to attract Linux fans to say "keep" indiscriminately. [[User:Codename Lisa|Codename Lisa]] ([[User talk:Codename Lisa|talk]]) 15:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Line 22 ⟶ 28:
:::: Just saw that [[User:Codename Lisa]] is a member of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Microsoft]]... Are there any further doubts regarding as of why he/she isn't so fond of a Linux-related article? And particularly the article clashing with the Microsoft's holy grail — the desktop. :) -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 19:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
::::: Hi. Did you know that Codename Lisa is the codename for version 12 of Linux Mint? Obviously not. I am Linux and this article is not related to me. Best regards, [[User:Codename Lisa|Codename Lisa]] ([[User talk:Codename Lisa|talk]]) 20:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Hello there! I'm apologizing for that, wasn't aware of the relation to Linux Mint, as I'm not using that distribution. Why is then your Wikipedia user page stating you're a member of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Microsoft]]? Those two aren't mixing that well. :) -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 21:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Hi. WikiProject Microsoft is about Wikipedia and [[WP:NOR|its neutrality pillars]], not Microsoft. They want someone who can write from a neutral point of view, not a Microsoft fanboy. I managed to make thing more neutral. For instance the [[Start menu]] article now acknowledges that the menu is not just a thing of Windows but is also present on other operating systems. Or, we managed to prevent exaggeration of the importance of Windows 8.1. But I digress. This article does something like what Microsoft does: Privatization of contents. It shouldn't be so: Its contents should be merged with other articles like [[Shell (computing)]], [[desktop environment]], [[WIMP (computing)]], etc. Neutrally mentioning design, development and implementation tenets, IMHO, is the way to go. Best regards, [[User:Codename Lisa|Codename Lisa]] ([[User talk:Codename Lisa|talk]]) 21:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::::: Thank you for a very good explanation, it all makes sense! I totally agree that neutrality is ''the key'' everywhere, and especially here on Wikipedia. If we don't stay neutral, then the whole thing turns into a huge blog, what's not the point. For example, I'll always say that KDE 4 was a miss and is a ''total'' disaster (too complex, pushed out prematurely and thus very buggy), as well as Windows 8 is a disaster (unjustified / not needed paradigm shift).
:::::::: I'll have another look into the [[Linux desktop environments]] article, and come back with a detailed proposal. I've already renamed the article, as that way it has a potential to present its own matter, and that's what it should've contained from the beginning and from a neutral point of view — if you agree.
:::::::: -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Now that the article has been renamed, I'd like to ask about the scope of [[Linux desktop environments]]. What is this article going to be about, and how is it going to avoid extensive overlap with [[Desktop environment]]? Also, if it's going to be about KDE, GNOME, etc, then it's going to run into severe problems, because those are not Linux exclusive. They're also used in other operating systems, such as BSD. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 17:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
:* Meh, this article looks like a bigger mess the more I'm looking into it. :( So far, the only reasonable thing appropriate for [[Linux desktop environments]] would be some kind of a "road signs cluster" article, providing a big picture overview — with links to KDE, GNOME etc. articles. It's already there within the article, but it requires some serious trimming.
:: But then again, do we need such an article? Thoughts? -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 20:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
::*Yeah, I went through the same thought process. Linux is fairly standardized (POSIX, X11, Mesa 3D, OpenGL, etc), so there isn't all that much unique to Linux that we need to cover. It's not like Apple or Microsoft, where there's all sorts of proprietary technologies that need their own articles. We've already got [[History of Linux]], [[Criticism of desktop Linux]], and [[Desktop environment]]. We could probably fit everything else under [[Linux]]. I thought about volunteering to rewrite this article, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like a pointless effort. One main article to tie up all these concepts might work, but it would probably have to be less specific than this. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 22:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
:::* Right, we're having duplicated content around, what's quite confusing to anyone reading the articles, and at the same time tough for later maintenance and updating.
:::: In a few words, how about doing something like this:
::::# heading section content from the [[Linux desktop environments]] article becomes incorporated into the [[Linux#Desktop]] section (better said, the bits not already covered in that section of the [[Linux]] article)
::::# we already have various desktop screenshots in the same [[Linux#Desktop]] section, so those ''might'' be moved into the [[Desktop environment]] article as well
::::# [[Desktop environment]] article becomes the "Main article" for [[Linux#Desktop]] section.
:::: [[Linux desktop environments]] article would be really an overkill in that scenario.
:::: Sounds like a plan? Thoughts? -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 23:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
::::*Hi.
:::::This looks a good plan. We can even negotiate details live. Do you want me to withdraw this nomination or do you prefer to leave it on for a while to attract more consensus?
:::::Best regards,
:::::[[User:Codename Lisa|Codename Lisa]] ([[User talk:Codename Lisa|talk]]) 01:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::* Thank you. If you agree, I'd leave the nomination tag so more people can see it and possibly contribute more ideas and comments. After we go through a few more days discussing and ironing it out, I can go ahead (or somebody else) and move the stuff as described above — or according to our final plan, of course.
:::::: Also, nomination tag should stay as the [[Linux desktop environments]] article is going to be deleted in the end, after its content is moved around — if everyone agrees.
:::::: As always, comments are more than welcome. :) -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 02:22, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
::::::*This sounds good to me, but I'm not even sure we '''need''' a "main article" for [[Linux#Desktop]]. That's a debate for [[Talk:Linux]], though. Some of these concepts could probably be expanded on in the appropriate articles, such as [[Operating system]] and [[Desktop environment]], as long as it doesn't become too technical or complex. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 06:50, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::::* Thank you. Well, it can be at least a "See also" article. :)
:::::::: Also, please have a look at [[Talk:Linux#Article structure over multiple articles]], where [[User:ScotXW|ScotXW]] is proposing quite a redo of the Linux-related articles structure. That's something interesting and worth discussing over it.
:::::::: -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 10:03, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
::::::::* Please no more "... it is [[Unix-like]]"-sentences, this ''term'' is totally useless, to put it kindly. In the article [[Linux on the desktop]] I want to learn something about the [[middleware]], i.e. ''all'' the stuff between the [[Linux kernel]] and the [[GNOME Shell]]. How does it work? Why would I want such an operating system on my home desktop, why wouldn't I? Why would I want it in the office? Should we have rather donated money to [[Mesa 3D]] then to [[Mozilla]]? If there is an extra article named [[Controversy over GNOME 3]], how can there not be an article [[Linux on the desktop]]? [[User:ScotXW|ScotXW]] ([[User talk:ScotXW|talk]]) 18:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::* Hm, that's a good point, but can't we have that described within the [[Desktop environment]] article? From another perspective, what should we eventually do with the [[Desktop environment]] article?
:::::::::: Also, if we go with [[Linux on the desktop]] article, then a lot of ''"it's GNU on the desktop, not Linux"'' people are going to hit us hard. And they're quite right, as it's the KDE, GNOME or whatever on the desktop, and you can also have that with FreeBSD or even through Cygwin or natively on Windows.
:::::::::: Just as a note, only the technically inclined people care about such stuff. I ''do'' care about what's under the hood, but nobody is going to choose Linux just because of its shiny exhaust manifolds, so to speak. :) Such "office workers" people just want to click and print a document, they don't care or know even what ink-jet technology in fact is — for example.
:::::::::: Please don't get me wrong... I ''do'' want and ''love'' tech stuff ''all around,'' but we should keep in mind that we're going to lure nobody into Linux just because we expose all of the gears.
:::::::::: Thoughts? -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 18:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::*Besides agreeing with what Dsimic has said above, I would point out that articles on Wikipedia must satisfy [[WP:N|notability]] and [[WP:V|verifiability]] issues; furthermore, [[WP:SOAPBOX|advocacy]] and [[WP:NOR|personal opinion]] are forbidden. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 02:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
:::::::::::* Exactly. I know it's a bit of pain to have everything backed with references, even when you know first hand something is true, but that's what an encyclopedia in fact is — a ''large'' sum of the facts extracted out of good references. We're summing up research work and proven facts here, instead of writing essays. -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 11:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
{{od|::::::::::::}}
Just checking, how are we standing from the point of reaching a consensus? Please comment. -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 12:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
:I pity the admin who has to make sense of this long discussion. Here's what I favor:
*'''Merge''' the useful, sourced elements of this article into [[Desktop environment]] and [[Linux]], and redirect to [[Linux#Desktop]]. I may assist in this if someone leaves a note on my talk page. '''Note''': if content is to be merged, we shouldn't delete this article, per [[WP:MAD]]. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 16:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
<hr style="width:55%;" />
:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''[[WP:RELIST|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.'''</span><br />
:<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:BusterD|BusterD]] ([[User talk:BusterD|talk]]) 04:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist -->
<hr style="width:55%;" />
<hr style="width:55%;" />
:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''[[WP:RELIST|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.'''</span><br />
:<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 21:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist -->
<hr style="width:55%;" />
In a few words, this is what's been pretty much concluded so far, as a brief summary of the discussion above:
# content from the [[Linux desktop environments]] article (primarily its lead section) becomes incorporated / merged into the [[Linux#Desktop]] section (better said, the few bits not already covered in that section of the [[Linux]] article);
# there are already various desktop screenshots in [[Linux#Desktop]] section, so those ''might'' be moved into the [[Desktop environment]] article as well;
# [[Desktop environment]] article becomes a "See also" article for the [[Linux#Desktop]] section;
# [[Linux desktop environments]] article would become an overkill in this scenario, so the final step would be turning it into a redirect to the [[Desktop environment]] article.
Sounds like a plan? Thoughts? -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic|talk]]) 23:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
* That sounds about a nice course of action. Best regards, [[User:Codename Lisa|Codename Lisa]] ([[User talk:Codename Lisa|talk]]) 03:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
* I'd agree to that. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 03:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
* '''Merge''''—Now '''''this''''' is how consensus should be reached. Great job to {{u|Dsimic}} and {{u|Codename Lisa}} to reach this. I think your proposal makes a lot of sense, and I applaud you for making the effort to implement it. I'm mainly just !voting so that the closing admin can easily see what's going on here; you guys have done all the heavy lifting. [[User:Livitup|<span style="color:#006">Liv</span><span style="color:#06F">it</span><span style="color:#006">'''⇑'''</span>]][[User talk:Livitup|<sup>Eh?</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Livitup|<sub>What?</sub>]] 18:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
:: Thank you very much! We're just trying to be productive members of the Wikipedia community. :) -- [[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]] ([[User talk:Dsimic#nobold|talk]]) 18:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
| |||