Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay lisp: Difference between revisions
Content deleted Content added
comment re: gay stereotyping |
MalnadachBot (talk | contribs) m Fixed Lint errors. (Task 12) |
||
| (26 intermediate revisions by 19 users not shown) | |||
Line 1:
<div class="boilerplate metadata vfd" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. ''
<!--Template:Afd top
Note: If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]]. When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. -->
The result was '''Keep'''. [[User:Cbrown1023|Cbrown1023]] 23:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
===[[Gay lisp]]===
:{{la|Gay lisp}} <includeonly> — ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay lisp|View AfD]])</includeonly>
This article should be deleted on the grounds of [[WP:OR]] and that it is offensive. - [[User:Gilliam|Gilliam]] 02:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Line 8 ⟶ 14:
*Whoa. '''Keep''', possibly rename. The article has sources in the external links, which is no longer acceptable, but they are strong sources -- ''The Economist'' a scholarly journal, and an article that references scholarship. It's pretty easy to find more sources, too: [http://www.stanford.edu/~podesva/documents/igala2004.ppt], [http://www.vueweekly.com/articles/default.aspx?i=1883], [http://homepages.nyu.edu/~eml246/context.pdf], [http://www.sdu.dk/Hum/graduateschool/DCameronChap4.pdf]. Summary: not all gay (men) have a lisp, but almost all gay men have shared language characteristics that set them apart. (This is a common social marker in linguistics; see [[Northern cities vowel shift]], [[code switching]].) The ''title'' is a problem. [[Gay speech characteristics]], perhaps, would be an NPOV replacement. --[[User:Dhartung|Dhartung]] | [[User talk:Dhartung|Talk]] 05:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Rename''' to [[Gay speech characteristics]] per Dhartung. --[[User:Dennisthe2|Dennisthe2]] 05:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Redirect/merge''' to [[Gay stereotyping]]. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*'''Merge''' to [[Gay stereotyping]] or rename to something like [[Gay speech characteristics]], but a name that doesn't imply that it's necessarily a characteristic that all or most gay folks share (they don't, or it would be easier to tell who is gay!). [[Stereotypes of gay speech]]? Horrible, I know. [[user:delldot|delldot]] | <small>[[user talk:delldot|talk]]</small> 07:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*I agree that '''mergining''' to [[Gay stereotyping]] is the best course of action, it should '''not''' be renamed "gay speech characteristics." This is tantamount to having articles on "Jewish nose shapes" and "reasons minorities are lazy." Articles on those subjects, when presented in context of "stereotyping" or something of that nature, can be encyclopedic.--[[User:Dmz5|Dmz5]] 07:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::Although I wouldn't advocate doing such a merge until [[Gay stereotyping]] is majorly cleaned up.--[[User:Dmz5|Dmz5]] 07:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Redirect/Merge''' to [[Gay stereotyping]] <
*'''Redirect/merge''' per Grutness. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 12:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Rename/no redirect''' Although the idea of a lisp is a stereotype associated with gay men, there appears to be some evidence of a sociolinguistic phenomenon. Just as it would be wrong to include [[African-American Vernacular English]] under [[African-American stereotyping]], it is likewise incorrect to suggest that any perception (by gays or straights) of social markers in the speech of gay men is merely repair to a stereotype. [[User:Pop Secret|Pop Secret]] 13:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Line 40 ⟶ 46:
*'''Keep''' and rename per Dhartung. The best source, the Economist article, starts by saying the lisp isn't the main characteristic, it's the voice pitch. Here is another by the University of Toronto: [http://www.newsandevents.utoronto.ca/bin2/020218c.asp], about the same thing. Those are good sources. [[User:AnonEMouse|AnonEMouse]] <sup>[[User_talk:AnonEMouse|(squeak)]]</sup> 17:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep, but rename''' This is a real phenomenom, however the word lisp could be construed as somewhat homophobic. [[User:Nlsanand|Nlsanand]] 17:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. To address why I don't think this content should merge into [[Gay
**<s>'''black stereotyping'''</s> (see below)
**'''jewish stereotyping'''
**'''stereotypes of women''' etc.
:and I think that is rightly so. Why is it that a specific article is needed to cover gay stereotyping or a sub-facet of it? - [[User:WJBscribe|'''WJB'''''scribe'']] <sup><small>[[User talk:WJBscribe|('''WJB''' ''talk'')]]</small></sup> 19:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::'''Comment''' actually there are pages for other minorities - see [[Ethnic stereotypes in American media]] and the articles link to from it. Gay stereotyping and homophobia are not necessarily the same thing, though there is obviously a strong correlation between the two. However, this is not the place for it. If you do feel that [[Gay stereotyping]] should be removed, then feel free to nominate it for AfD and we can discuss it there. [[User:Koweja|Koweja]] 21:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::*'''Comment'''. OK, I'm wrong about the bias I point out above. Credit to [[User:Koweja|Koweja]] for pointing it out. There is an article on [[Stereotypes of Africans/Blacks]] and it is presently subject to its own AfD.- [[User:WJBscribe|'''WJB'''''scribe'']] <sup><small>[[User talk:WJBscribe|('''WJB''' ''talk'')]]</small></sup> 23:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
*As per discussion with WJBscribe, I move that this article and [[Gay stereotyping]] be '''merged''' into the [[Homophobia]] article. [[User:Jeffpw|Jeffpw]] 20:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::I am not sure that I agree that "gay stereotyping" is equivalent to homophobia...also to be honest I am surprised that there are no articles on black/jewish/etc stereotyping, not that I am necessarily advocating they be created.--[[User:Dmz5|Dmz5]] 21:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I really don't think that a gay stereotype is equivalent to homophobic - let's face, a lot of gay men DO act like that stereotype in varying degrees. It's not homophobic to say that, and fuck knows ''I'm'' not homophobic. Really, this shouldn't be merged. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 22:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:What about [[gaydar]]? Should that be merged, too, or is gaydar also equivalent to homophobia? --[[User:Dhartung|Dhartung]] | [[User talk:Dhartung|Talk]] 22:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::There's clearly nothing wrong with gaydar, which has no link to homophobia. But I suspect that if there were articles about typical ''black speech patterns'' and ''black stereotypes'', these would rightly be pointed out to be inherently racist. - [[User:WJBscribe|'''WJB'''''scribe'']] <sup><small>[[User talk:WJBscribe|('''WJB''' ''talk'')]]</small></sup> 23:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
::: ''But see [[African-American Vernacular English]].'' Nor is it racist. Imagine telling [[Gwendolyn Brooks]] that because her poem "We Real Cool" was written in A.A.V.E. her work was "inherently racist!" The use of distinctive speech forms among social sub-groups is well-documented and an element of sociolinguistic diversity. By no means should we blanche out any reference to this phenomenon in a misguided attempt at political correctness. [[User:Pop Secret|Pop Secret]] 01:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
:::: '''comment''': we already have an article on [[gay slang]] and nobody's accusing it of homophobia. That would seem to be a comparable example to the article on [[African-American Vernacular English]]. Now on the other hand if we had an article taking the claim seriously that Black Americans are genetically prone to speaking a certain way because they are black... [[User:Dragomiloff|Dragomiloff]] 01:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' - Being offensive is not a criteria for deletion. It does seem like there is literature on speech mannerisms which are associated with gay stereotypes. However, there is little support in the literature for the current title and really its just part of the larger stereotype and not notable on its own. [[User:Savidan|savidan]]<sup>[[User_talk:Savidan|(talk)]] [[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">(e@)</span>]]</sup> 23:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
'''Rename''' Interesting topic, needs to be expanded with more references. "Offensive" is irrelevant, this is factual and relevant, and people's emotional reactions to articles are not our business. [[User:Haiduc|Haiduc]] 01:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' [[User:BrenDJ|BrenDJ]] 02:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and probably rename [[Gay speech characteristics]]. [[User:Danbold|Danbold]] 06:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' I hope the people adovcating merges are not advocating merging "Gay speech characteristics" (which renaming is how this debate ought to be resolved) with [[Homophobia]], a course of action that makes as much sense as merging [[African-American Vernacular English]] with [[Racism]] or [[Received Pronunciation]] with [[Anglophobia]]. Those advocating a merge into [[Homophobia]] or [[Gay stereotyping]] have provided no justification for discounting the scientific evidence beyond conclusory assertions that any suggestion of distinctive speech patterns among gay men must be stereotyping. Deletion cannot be justified by so little. [[User:Pop Secret|Pop Secret]] 09:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
**'''Comment:''' The ''Economist'' article and others report that scientists study the human voice of gay males, but do not support the stereotype that the speech impediment of a lisp is a uniquely gay trait. - [[User:Gilliam|Gilliam]] 10:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Rename'''. There is plenty of literature on the subject, so a reasonable sourced article could be written. The current name isn't good tho. [[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 18:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', '''Rename''' and '''Cleanup'''. I'd like to see the references cleaned up, but it appears that references to valid research confirming the presence of these speech patterns can be found, or, at least, that this is a valid area for scientific research, so this is not prima facie OR. It's clearly notable, as it documents a phenomenon widely referenced in broader culture. A redirect or merge to [[Gay stereotyping]] should be discouraged: as I understand it, stereotyping is about misperception and generalisation: this article, and the supporting research, do not seem to imply that this speech pattern is present in all gay men, or only in gay men, only that its presence is to some extent correlated with sexuality. As and when the stereotyping article is expanded, it may usefully refer to this article. [[User:WMMartin|WMMartin]] 18:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep, but only if cleaned up'''. If not, delete. This article is a mess. Lots of unsourced POV and conjecture going on there. [[User:ExRat|ExRat]] 02:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
| |||