Wikipedia talk:Canvassing and Class of 3000: Difference between pages

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{{infobox television |

== Origins of this guideline ==

| show_name = Class of 3000

This guideline was originally part of [[Wikipedia:Spam]]. For discussion about splitting it off, see [[Wikipedia talk:Spam#WP:CANVAS?]] -- [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 02:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

| image = [[Image:Classof3000logo.jpg]]

| caption = Class of 3000 logo

| format = [[Animated series]]

| runtime = 22 minutes approximately

| creator = [[Andre 3000]]<br>[[Thomas W. Lynch|Tommy Lynch]]

| starring = [[Andre 3000]] <br> [[Tom Kenny]] <br> [[Jennifer Hale]] <br> [[Crystal Scales]] <br> [[Phil LaMarr]] <br> [[Janice Kawaye]] <br> [[Small Fire]]

| country = {{USA}}

| network = [[Cartoon Network]]

| studios = [[Cartoon Network Studios]] <br> [[Moxie]] <br> [[Tom Lynch Co.]]

| first_aired = [[November 3]], [[2006]]

| last_aired = present

| num_episodes = 13

| imdb_id = 0767914

| tv_com_id = 64128

|}}

'''''Class of 3000''''' is a [[United States|American]] Comedy [[animated television series]] on [[Cartoon Network]] that is created, executive produced by and starring André Benjamin (a.k.a [[André 3000]]) of the hip-hop group [[OutKast]] as superstar and music teacher Sunny Bridges, set at [[Atlanta, Georgia]]'s Westley School of Performing Arts. Mr. Bridges is a hip-hop artist who occasionally lectures in Atlanta's [[Little Five Points]] neighborhood. The voice cast includes [[Tom Kenny]], [[Janice Kawaye]], [[Phil LaMarr]], [[Jeff Bennett]], [[Jennifer Hale]], and [[Crystal Scales]]. The series made its world premiere (previously advertised as a live premiere with performances by [[Chris Brown]]) on [[November 3]], [[2006]] at 8:00 p.m. ET/PT with a one-hour special [http://animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=1079]. The show was co-created and developed by Veteran Producer Tom Lynch ([[South of Nowhere]], [[The Secret World of Alex Mack]], and [[The Journey of Allen Strange]], [[The Jersey]], and [[Kids Inc]].) & [[Patric M. Verrone]]. The official site is up, and contains the theme song, pictures and profiles of the main characters, and the show's premiere. A section on Cartoon Network.com has been created as well. The title does not refer to the students' graduating year, but to the class being taught by André 3000's character, Sunny Bridges.

== External poll ==

On german wikipdia [[:de:Benutzer:Karen thomä|user:Karen thomä]] is doing a poll among the 500 most active users for her thesis in communication science (university Dresden) [http://www.befrager.de/befragung.aspx?projekt=1626]. Therefore she asked [http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Tullius&diff=prev&oldid=25150357 e.g.] all these 500 users on their discussion to help. She registered new and only did a few edits in namespace (because wikipedians asked her to). Would such behavior be canvassig on english wikipedia? -- [[User:172.177.110.155|172.177.110.155]] 08:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

==Main Characters==

:This would fall under the [[WP:SPAM]] guideline - this is spamming to get participants for a poll, not to directly influence an on-wiki discussion. In the past, this kind of thing has also been controversial, as it is an annoyance and "taking advantage" of Wikipedia even though it is not for commercial purposes. There's one exception I know of where it was specifically OK'ed by the Wikimedia Foundation beforehand so that incident fizzled (IIRC). But in general it's not OK. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2006-12-31 08:48Z</small></i></span>

[[Image:Kidsofclassof3000.jpg|315px|left|thumb|An image of Sunny Bridges (far right) running his students (from left to right), Eddie, Kim (behind Eddie), Tamika, Philly Phil, Kam, Madison, and Li'l D.]]

===Sunny Changes Bridges===

The hometown hero of Little Five Points, Sunny is a musical genius who left Georgia to become a recording artist. Over the years in the employ of his money-grubbing manager, however, he lost his passion for music, because of the stress, and returned to his old neighborhood, intending to go into permanent retirement; instead, Li'l D convinced him to become the new [[music]] teacher at [[Westley School of Performing Arts]]. Sunny is devoted to his students, but he is forced to keep a low profile in order to avoid media attention. While he can play many instruments, his favorite is the [[saxophone]]. Sunny's character is loosely based off of Jazz Saxophonist [[Sonny Rollins]], both in his appearance and reclusive personality.

I've made a number of changes and introduced some new text, please comment. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2006-12-31 08:45Z</small></i></span>

===Li'l D===

Some of the changes I made:

Li'l D has been called a "li'l me" by creator [[Andre 3000]]. He is the unofficial leader of the Westley School's music class. Bright, talented, and confident to a fault, he is incredibly tenacious when it comes to music. Through sheer determination (as well as breaking and entering), he managed to recruit Sunny Bridges as the class's new music teacher. Though Li'l D considers himself remarkably streetwise, his overconfidence often leads him into trouble. He plays the [[drums]], as well as several other instruments.

* I replaced the "Alternatives" section about adding wikilinks to articles because it didn't really apply to canvassing. I can see how it would appl to non-canvassing internal talkpage spamming but I don't think that has been a problem at all, anyway it can stay at [[WP:SPAM]]. I have rewritten the alternatives in terms of how to get wider discussion without targeting individual editors

* I integrated the "friendly notice" section into guidelines, avoiding saying "it's okay to canvass in some situations" but without really explaining anything.

* I added sections on "if you have canvassed", "if others have canvassed"

* "Editors may be blocked by administrators if they continue canvassing after being warned" - this wasn't there before but I believe consensus supports it.

* Re-factored <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2006-12-31 09:23Z</small></i></span>

**I would recommend making the guideline descriptive rather than prescriptive. So "Editors have been blocked by administrators" reflects the history of responses to canvassing rather than telling admins what to do. The case-by-case decisionmaking on repeat canvassing should still occur at [[WP:ANI]]. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 23:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

*** I can see how descriptive rather than prescriptive guidelines are less controversial, but isn't there enough support for a prescriptive one? With multiple ArbCom rulings and such. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2007-01-01 22:05Z</small></i></span>

****Yeah but if the ArbCom rules on something we can just link to their ruling and let it stand as status quo on the issue. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 06:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

===Tamika Jones===

== "Friendly notice" section ==

Brash and aggressive, Tamika makes it her business to keep the other students in line. As her reputation implies, she has earned the title "toughest girl in school." She is also extremely stubborn. The slightest misstep is grounds for a threatening fist. "Prove it or Move it" is her trademark phrase, but is not sure what to do if someone chooses "Prove it!". Though she has a sharp tongue, Tamika shares a close bond with her classmates, and will protect them as often as she bullies them. She plays the [[harp]], but is also adept with an [[acoustic guitar]], along with the [[electric guitar]].

===Kam===

I don't really like the "Friendly notice" section, because it seems to be saying "it's okay to canvass in some situations" but not really explaining anything. Thoughts on removing or improving it? <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2006-12-31 08:52Z</small></i></span>

Kam is Kim's twin brother and her polar opposite. He generally projects an air of refinement and class -- or so he would like to think. He has his own creativity but the opposite of Kim's. It was apparently pressure from Kam and Kim's father that forged Kam's uptight attitude. He primarily enjoys classical music, but is versatile enough to play virtually any type of [[keyboard]].

:I might have to dig into the [[WP:SPAM]] archives for this, but I seem to remember it states that you can ask editors who are experts in a topic for an expert opinion. On the last version I agree, it was uninformative:

::''"If there are a small handful of editors who share your taste and/or philosophy, it is sometimes acceptable to contact them with regard to a specific issue as long as it does not become disruptive. This is more acceptable if they have made an unsolicited request to be kept informed, and absolutely unacceptable if they have asked you to stop."''

:~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 09:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

===Kim===

==Internal spamming==

Kim is Kam's twin sister and his polar opposite. She is very energetic, sometimes to the point of mischief, and loves to torment her more old-fashioned sibling. Generally, though, she has the better common sense, and she is extremely creative. Kim plays the [[Turntablism|turntable]], [[tamborine]], [[xylophone]], [[marimba]], [[cymbals]], [[triangle]], [[vibraphone]], [[maracas]], [[piano]], and most other non-drum [[percussion]] instruments.

Re your comment at [[WT:SPAM#WP:CANVAS]], I think [[WP:SPAM]] should solely deal with commercial interests, so "internal spamming" should be listed here even though it shares a name with external spamming. ''Unsolicited broadcasting of your efforts is frowned upon, while narrowcasting (sending it to a few editors with whom you share a collaborative relationship) might be acceptable. It is always to ask in advance if it is acceptable, and ongoing narrowcasts should be replaced with a Wikiproject.'' ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 09:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

===Philly Phil===

==Concerns==

Brilliant and imaginative, Philly Phil, the oldest of the group at 13, tends to stand out for his unusual fashion sense. He can invent useful devices at the drop of a hat. Though Li'l D and the other students do not fully understand Phil's many eccentricities, they are willing to accept him as one of their own. Philly Phil has an appetite for any type of food, especially candy. He plays [[bass guitar]] and the upright or [[double bass]].

This page seems to '''''entirely change''''' the positive view, and clear guidelines about canvassing. At the very least, I think we should remove the "guideline" template from the top, since it's such a dramatic change. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 10:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

===Edward "Eddie" Phillip James Lawrence III===

:I'm not sure what you mean with "positive view", but I changed the tag. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 11:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Eddie, who speaks with a slight Southern drawl, is the heir to the Lawrence fortune (According to the first episode, his father is the head of the Earth division of "Cola Cola"). A cultured aristocrat, he has something of a high-and-mighty attitude concerning the other students, and he needs to learn that not all problems can be solved with money. He is the only character to have ten fingers at any time (he will usually have eight, but for at least one scene he had 10, which he said that was because he was rich), which he needs to play complex instruments such as the [[clarinet]]. Eddie's clarinet is quite different, as it is [[cyan]] instead of the usual black. It appears that he has a crush on Tamika although this was only suggested in two episodes (Home and Westley Side Story) and officaly announced by Eddie in the episode "Love is in the Hair...Net". Eddie primarily plays wind instruments like the [[trumpet]], [[clarinet]], [[trombone]], and [[flute]]. Eddie has spoken of having Swiss ancestory.

===Madison Spaghettini Papadopoulos===

::Jc37 - it would be ''extremely helpful'' if you could point out where this policy is "dramatically different" from established policy at [[WP:SPAM]]. The intent here certainly is NOT to chart a new direction, but rather to split an existing guideline in two and clean it up a bit. As such, the "new" guideline should NOT have "dramatic" differences; I'm sure any such introduced are mistakes. Again, specifics, PLEASE. [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 21:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

She is cheerful, upbeat and extremely spacey as is evident from her perpetual vacant smile; however, her [[flower-child]] appearance belies the perceptive mind behind it. Madison plays bowed string instruments such as the [[violin]] and [[cello]].

==Minor characters==

First, my '''''great''''' apologies for not being clearer. (Your request for clarification is one that I often request as well... sigh - I'll chalk it up to lack of sleep : ) - When responding, my main concern was that this ''was'' an attempt to change direction, which made the "guideline" tag seem at least a bit premature.

'''Principal Luna''' - The principal at Westley School for Performing Arts. He seems to be of Hispanic decent, and is always trying to make money for the school. He has a crush on the lunch lady Ms. Squatenchowder. His favorite word is fantastic.

'''Sunny's Manager and Men''' - Seen in "Home", Sunny's manager is constantly coming up with new ideas to use Sunny to make money. He's also hired Sunny a guy who yells "Sunny, you're wanted on stage!" as well as a Yes Man and a Hatchet Man. All of them irritate Sunny greatly, and helped lead to him almost completely retiring from music.

As for what I mean(t), there is a tonality to this page that seems to differ from that at [[WP:SPAM]], and several things listed there would seem to have been changed here. When I return later I'll see about doing a more detailed comparison of the two. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 21:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

:Is this still forthcoming? ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Chedderman''' -Charles, also known as Chedderman, is one of Sunny's friends. He specialises in selling cheeses and doing teeth. He's something of a shady character and is often seen selling contraband goods and services out of his car, like "Mr. Bristle" action figures that, are ''really'' used toothbrushes, and bootleg movies which he shoots and in which he plays every part. He's often used as a quick joke in the show to keep up the interest. As seen in the episode "Eddie's Money", he is an excellent helicopter mechanic. He is also known to be part of Sunny's old band, the "Sunny Bridges' Funkaneers"

::Thank you very much for reminding me : ) - It gets to be so easy to be distracted by so much on Wikipedia : ) - I'll finish checking my watchlist, and then this will be my first priority today : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Bianca Moon''' - A woman who runs an organic food shop that appears in "Home" and again in "The Hunt for Red Blobtober". She's shown to be out of touch with reality, and will accept painted shells and shiny beads as currency if you don't have money when buying merchandise.

:::Responding below. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 13:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Kid Sunny''' - Seen only in Flashbacks that when Sunny tells about his days as a first year. These flashbacks have only been seen in

==Votestacking vs. campaigning==

"Home", which is when his kid self buy at a music store,

I did a bit of moving around and copyediting, but I'm not all sure what the difference is. Votestacking = soliciting votes for XfD, campaigning = soliciting votes for RFA? We might be able to merge those two sections into one, or we should clarify the difference. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 22:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"Peanuts! Get yer Peanuts!", where kid Sunny is in Modern Dance, and in "Funky Monkey", where kid Sunny is in a Upper Class play, but

:I agree, I would say the words mostly mean the same thing with a very subtle difference: ''votestacking'' is an ''event'', i.e. what has happened when a debate has been (successfully) biased, and ''campaigning'' is an ''action'', i.e. the act of the perpetrator trying (possibly succeeding) to effect votestacking. I've merged the two sections. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2007-01-01 00:23Z</small></i></span>

even is still a first year. No one but Sunny knows what happened

in that play. All we know is that Sunny got the lead role "The Tree"

and during the real play he asked "Is that a real ax?" and was answered "Shut up first year! Trees don't talk!".Sunny's younger self has been seen in many other episodes, such as "Love is in the Hair...Net"

'''Teen Sunny''' - Teen Sunny is another person only seen in flashbacks.

== Off-Wiki canvassing ==

So far Teen Sunny has only been seen in "The Hunt for the Red Blobtrober" He was the lead of a funk band called "Sunny Bridges' Funkaneers".

'''Mr. Lawrence''' - Eddie's father and the extremely wealthy head of the Earth division of the Cola Cola company. He was seen once in a flashback in "Eddie's Money", where he buys a Baseball Stadium for Eddie's front yard so Eddie can see a live baseball game. However, when Eddie comments on the stadium being empty and asks his father to fly in some baseball fans, Mr. Lawrence replies "I'm not made of money, unlike the guest house." His motto is "Why go out when you can have whatever you want at home?" He appears again in "Brotha from the Third Rock", when he skeet shoots Philly Phil's rocket from the sky. (This episode also marks the first appearance of Eddie's mother, Mrs. Lawrence, who was curiously absent from her son's birthday party in "Eddie's Money".)

There seems to be no mention of off-Wiki canvassing. This could be done by e-mail (virtually undetectable, of course) or on another Wiki or forum.--[[User:Runcorn|Runcorn]] 22:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

:There's already this statement: ''Canvassing also includes the use of a custom signature to automatically append some promotional message to every signed post, or other means such as through e-mail.'' Is there some way to word it better? We could add in the "Admin involvement" section: ''Note that although canvassing in external fora may not be directly blockable by Wikipedia administrators, the effects are easily be detected and the user blocked on Wikipedia.'' Or is that too [[WP:BEANS|BEANS]]y? <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2007-01-01 00:23Z</small></i></span>

:: I would add that external canvassing towards people not already established editors becomes a meatpuppet exercise, something also covered by [[WP:SOCK]]. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2007-01-01 00:25Z</small></i></span>

:::Yes, I missed the ref to other means. I would be very unhappy about blocking anyone for off-Wikipedia activity.--[[User:Runcorn|Runcorn]] 18:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

:::: I think the "e-mail" refers to Wikipedia-linked email, per [[Wikipedia:Emailing users]]. Using that feature to canvass IS something that users should be subject to blocking for. But otherwise, no, things like F2F and IRC and private emailing shouldn't be covered by this policy, and perhaps the best way to deal with them is to so state. [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 22:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

::::: Well, whether off-wiki actions can have on-wiki repercussions is a current controversy so I would just leave it ambiguous for now. <span class="user-sig user-Quarl"><i>—[[User:Quarl|Quarl]] ^{([[User Talk:Quarl|talk]])} <small>2007-01-01 22:20Z</small></i></span>

'''Upperclassmen''' - The upperclassmen are students who have been at Westley School longer than the rest of the kids, and tend to act superior, like plays being "Upperclassmen" plays and trays being "Upperclassmen" trays. They're mainly Preston, Marlon, and a big, bully-like friend of Preston's.

==Extent==

How does this proposed policy apply to activities not involving deletion or adminship, such as requests for article peer reviews (i.e. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cetaceans&diff=87064033&oldid=86319226]), proposed WikiProjects, proposed awards/barnstars (i.e. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fishes&diff=87997720&oldid=84122335]), and Good/Featured article candidates? As an example, would posting a message on [[WP:CETA|WikiProject Cetaceans]] regarding an ongoing FAC discussion about an article on a species of whale be prohibited? (i.e. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cetaceans&diff=86256707&oldid=84696549])

:WikiProjects usually do their own monitoring and listing of AfD debates at least has (tacit?) community approval. The standard is to add a short notice to the debate like <small>This debate has been added to [[WP:CETA|WikiProject Cetaceans]] deletion sorting.</small> Maybe this should be made explicit. I don't think FAC debates are treated differently. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 06:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Leela Lopez''' - Another teacher at Westley's. She has a crush on Sunny Bridges. She appears in Peanuts! Get Yer Peanuts! and Love is in the Hair...Net. She eats raw cookie dough.

==[[Wikipedia:Multiposting]]==

Thanks to [[User:Radiant!|Radiant!]] for picking this up. I guess no one here has heard of this before. I flipped the arrows though since it looks like [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Multiposting|no one else]] has either, and even though the intent seems to be similar Multiposting doesn't seem to have the community input to call itself a guideline. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 18:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:Wow - I've been building an index to Wikipedia for several months now, and never came across that one - perhaps because it had, prior to today, a total of ''six'' incoming wikilinks, five of which were from user or talk space. Anyway, a suggestion - the "Forum shopping" section in this guideline never fit in well at all, in my opinion - one doesn't think of that when thinking of spam or canvassing. I suggest merging that section OUT of this guideline and into the "Multiposting" guideline, and keeping the two separate. And adding a few links - in this policy and elsewhere - to that semi-orphaned guideline so that it's not almost totally invisible. [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 22:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

::I don't think [[WP:MULTI]] (if that's the supposed shortcut) says anything more than [[WP:CANVAS]] does in one sentence: ''"<s>'''Internal spamming'''</s> '''Multiposting''' is advertising one's editorial efforts to a large number of editors without intent to influence a debate. It is often considered annoying by the recipients and also discouraged. Editors with whom you share a collaborative relationship on the other hand might like to hear about your work. If in doubt, you should ask beforehand."'' And to avoid what [[WP:MULTI]] warns against, too many forums for similar ideas I tink we can just change "Internal spamming" to "multiposting" and redirect it here. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:::There are really ''two'' separate concepts here: (1) ''I'm doing this neat thing, would you like to comment/join - more information is at [___location]?'', compared to (2) ''I have this problem, and here are all the details - can you help?'' For the first, ''internal spamming'' is the best label, in my opinion. For the second, ''forum shopping'' is probably the best label, because "multiposting" could be taken as covering the first category as well.

'''Petunia Squatenchowder''' - The sustitute lunch lady at Westlys. She has a crush on Sunny Bridges also. Then she fall in love with Principal Luna. She dumped Principal Luna if he played his "Luna Love" song again.

:::Not only are the types of postings different, but the solutions to the problem are different: for the first, just delete the internal spam; for the second, pick the best central ___location, move any comments at other locations into that central ___location; and leave a note at the other locations about where the central ___location is. And the volume of posts is different too: forum shopping exists even if a request for action is posted only in two places, while the threshold for what is "internal spamming" is certainly much more than two postings. [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 13:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::::On re-reading [[WP:MULTI]] I agree. They should stay as separate concepts. Whether they should stay on separate pages is another question. I think there is enough similarity to discuss them in context. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

== Welcome CanvassingEpisodes ==

{| class="wikitable"

|- bgcolor="#CCCCCC"

I dont mind being canvassed, and don't really understand why it is bad form, and it may be appropriate to have a "Welcomes Canvassing" userbox.[[User:Belbo Casaubon|Belbo Casaubon]] 18:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

! Episode #

:Maybe you mean that you don't mind being multiposted. Canvassing is the attempt to influence debates by rallying likeminded editors, and it is bad form no matter if you're complicit in it or not. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 22:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

! Production #

::Maybe what I am saying is that if a debate is worth having then it is worth including as many interested parties as possible, and I don't mind being invited, it expands the mind and encourages participation.[[User:Belbo Casaubon|Belbo Casaubon]] 23:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

! Title

::If that's the case you should sign up to WikiProjects that monitor deletion debates (an help with the monitoring yourself). ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 23:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

! Airdate

I don't mind being canvassed either. I'm a mature adult, and I really think I should be able to make up my own mind without the self-appointed minders who cite this '''proposed''' policy censoring my talk page, despite my posting a notice there '''explicitly''' asking them not to. It seems to me that in terms of [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines]] I have every right to receive these messages, and their removal is therefore vandalism. And that's in terms of '''existing''' guidelines, not this '''proposal''' for which I hope no consensus is likely. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 11:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:[[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]] is an '''existing guideline''' and covers the same issues. This article was solely created for convenience. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::Further, it doesn't matter if 20% or 50% or even 100% of users don't mind being solicited for their opinions or comments. The issue is whether such solicitation ''improves'' the outcomes of discussion about candidates, deleting articles, etc. It is the ''consensus'' of those here at Wikipedia that in fact canvassing ''makes such processes worse''. Canvassing encourages cliques, log-rolling, treating discussions like votes, partisanship, and a host of other ills (yes, I exaggerate, but still ... ) that run counter to building a good encyclopedia. Whether some people are annoyed by it is irrelvant. Personally, I find it flattering to be asked to get involved, as long as the volume of such requests is small and targeted. So what? [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 20:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

:::I agree with some of this, but I must point out that there is '''no''' consensus to adopt this particular guideline, and I think you'd find consensus lacking for some of the other points you make here too. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 23:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

::Yes, [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]] is an existing guideline, and it '''does not''' say quite the same things. So, when someone chooses to cite this '''proposed''' guideline instead... well, they shouldn't. If they want to cite '''both''', that's fine. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 23:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Hard to say if that actually makes a difference without looking at the case. Might've been been an editor who saw the note that this is being spun out but didn't notice we trying to edit the content. No matter the actual language, in spirit they should be the same. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't see that it makes a lot of difference. [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]] is a guideline. This is a proposal. The guideline is citable as such, and justifies for example blocking persistent offenders. This is not and does not. Perhaps it will become a guideline, or even a policy, I'd like that actually, '''if''' the problems with the current version can be solved. But I don't hold out a lot of hope of that, frankly. The issues are very tricky IMO, and what is more serious, some of those involved in the debate seem to underestimate just how tricky. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::This is just useless wikilawyering. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 05:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::Your opinion is noted. Suggest you reread [[WP:ATTACK]]. I assume you're familiar with [[Wikipedia:WikiLawyering]]. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 02:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Yes, I'm talking about [[WP:WL]] #3. And [[WP:ATTACK]] still says "Remarks describing an editor's actions and made without involving their personal character should not be construed as personal attacks." ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

==Canvassing (the word)==

Ok, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the verb "to canvass" means. This page presumes that it's equivilant to "votestacking", ie that when canvassing, one is only going after opinions that match the certain outcome. That's not true (see [[Canvassing]], for example). Canvassing is not dissimilar to polling. The idea is to get other people involved in the discussion.

Canvassing is a "tool", and as such can be used positively, or in ways which someone may not see as positive. Some examples listed at [[WP:SPAM]] are/were: "friendly notice", "campaigning", "and "votestacking". Essentially, canvassing to those interested in the topic is fine. Canvassing to those interested in a topic, with the intent to votestack, or some form of POV-push is not-so-fine.

I'm concerned that in re-writing the sections from [[WP:SPAM]], the "just fine" aspect of canvassing is being/has been written out, even to the point of mis-defining the word canvassing itself.

I started to edit the page to re-integrate the sections from [[WP:SPAM]], but I think I would like some discussion about this first. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 13:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

:I didn't notice the "friendly notice" section disappeared. I agree it should go back in. The "Problems with canvassing" section seems to get the definition right, but the intro paragraph adds the "further one's side" element, so that should be corrected too. I think it was ok to merge the campaiging and votestacking sections, or do you see a reason to keep them separate? ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"

|-

| colspan="4" bgcolor="#50A6C2" |

| '''Accepted''' || ↔ || '''Not accepted'''

|-

! colspan="4" style="background: #ECECEC;" | Season 1: 2006-2007

| Limited posting || ↔ || Mass posting

|-

| align="center" |1

| <small>AND || || <small>OR

| align="center" |01

| "[[Home (Class of 3000 episode)|Home]]"

| [[November 3]], [[2006]]

|-

| align="center" |2

| Neutral in tone || ↔ || POV pushing/soliciting

| align="center" |02

| "[[Peanuts! Get Yer Peanuts!]]"

| [[November 10]], [[2006]]

|-

| align="center" |3

| <small>AND || || <small>OR

| align="center" |03

| "[[Funky Monkey]]"

| [[November 17]], [[2006]]

|-

| align="center" |4

| align="center" |04

| "[[The Hunt for Red Blobtober]]"

| [[November 24]], [[2006]]

|-

| align="center" |5

| align="center" |05

| "[[Eddie's Money]]"

| [[December 1]], [[2006]]

|-

| Bipartisan || ↔ || Partisan

|}

Is this a fair representation of the current accepted norms? ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 22:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

| align="center" |6

:That's a good start. The problem is, who decides what is ''partisan''? Who decides what is ''limited posting''?

| align="center" |06

| "[[The Devil and Lil'D]]"

:Feel free to have a look at the alleged spam removals I've reverted on my talk page. Just look for any revert by me in my talk page history.

| [[December 15]], [[2006]]

|-

:I '''do not understand''' how anyone can claim that these are damaging to Wikipedia, especially when I have '''explicitly''' invited them. On the other hand, a proposed guideline that authorises uncontrolled and unwanted reverting of my talk page is a bit scary. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

| align="center" |7

| align="center" |07

::''The problem is, who decides what is ''partisan''? Who decides what is ''limited posting''?''

| "[[Brotha From the Third Rock]]"

::Community consensus, the ArbCom, our conflict resolution mechanisms.

| [[January 26]], [[2007]]

::''Just look for any revert by me in my talk page history.''

|-

::Diffs? ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 05:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

| align="center" |8

| align="center" |08

:::No, community consensus will '''not''' be part of the process if this guideline is adopted. The consensus will be to adopt it; Then it will be up to individuals to interpret it. And my feeling is that as it stands it would end up losing us a lot of editors, because for every one who takes it to dispute resolution, many others will just leave.

| "[[Westley Side Story]]"

| [[February 2]], [[2007]]

:::All I'm asking is that you leave messages left for me on my talk page alone. Is that unreasonable? Do you really think I'm the only one who would like this?

:::I'll post the diffs when I get a moment. They aren't hard to find. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 05:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Lst time I checked I never posted or removed anything on your talk page. You're not exactly making sense here. It's also not a question of whether "this guideline will be adopted". The guideline on canvassing is already adopted and has been for a long time, it's just that as of now it's located at [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]]. The branching out and editing has no policyshifting objective, but simply to separate two very different activities (external spamming and internal canvassing) and explain them on different pages. Further edits simply had the goal to clarify the terminology, and [[User:Jc37|Jc37]] had reasonable objections to the edits, so we reset it to a proposal. If we revert to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Canvassing&oldid=97453036 original version], it automatically turns into a guideline as a copy of the text in [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]]. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 06:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::I have never said that any changes to my talk page were made by you.

:::::Just to clarify, when I say ''if this guideline is adopted'', I mean ''Wikipedia:Canvassing'', of which this is the talk page. As to whether there is a policy shift objective, that is irrelevant, the point is that there appears to me to be a policy shift consequence. And it's a bad one. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 09:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::It's certainly not my intention to create a policy shift, simply to clarify the terms and include related content on the same page. (Not speaking for others here, but I doubt a policy shift has consensus.) And I still haven't seen anything from you that says "This wouldn't have happened under [[WP:SPAM]] but now it's done under [[WP:CANVASS]]. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I reverted the table above to my original edit. <s>[[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]]'s</s> [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]]'s change was

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"

|-

| align="center" |9

| Not limited to expected supporters || ↔ || Targeted to expected supporters

| align="center" |09

| "[[Love Is in the Hair...Net]]"

| [[February 9]], [[2007]]

|-

| align="center" |10

| align="center" |10

| "[[Am I Blue]]?"

| [[February 16]], [[2007]]

|-

| align="center" |11

| align="center" |11

| "[[Prank Yankers]]"

| [[February 23]], [[2007]]

|-

| align="center" |12

| align="center" |12

| "[[Sunny's Mentor]]"

| TBA

|-

| align="center" |13

| align="center" |13

| "[[Too Cool for School]]"

| TBA

|}

instead of partisan↔bipartisan. I don't disagree with the new wording (actually I do, but that's another issue), but I would prefer that my comments remain intact. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 07:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

== Songs ==

:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Canvassing&diff=99480136&oldid=99478710 That change] was not made by me. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 09:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Throughout the show, the students will play songs, sometimes based on how they feel.

::Oops. I apologize and corrected the comment. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::No probs. Thanks for using strikeout to preserve the threads. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 02:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

A November 3rd [http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/ny-ettvtwo4956360nov03,0,7835774.story?coll=ny-television-headlines Newsday] article notes that:<blockquote>....some creative grown-ups throw down each episode, too, providing distinctive visuals for music videos to [[Andre Benjamin]]'s original songs performed by the class' kids. "[[Ren & Stimpy]]" wild-man animator [[John Kricfalusi]] and classic [[Parliament-Funkadelic]] cover artist [[Overton Loyd]] do the premiere honors, with subsequent contributions from Marvel Comics' [[Bill Sienkiewicz]] and [[Robotboy]] director Charlie Bean.</blockquote>

Responding to the initial commenta at the top of this thread:

* I like the comparison table above. Though we should make clear that the dividing line between each side of the table is rather subjective.

* I don't think that there's a problem with merging campaigning and votestacking, though maybe "campaigning" could even be seen as a neutral term? Votestacking would seem to be the widespread term for the negative action, the problem, of course is the debate over [[MeatBall:VotingIsEvil|Voting is evil]]/[[MeatBall:VotingIsGood|Voting is good]], which this could be seen as becoming a part of by using the word "vote". Maybe we should discuss what would be a "good" term for negative canvassing? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 14:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:*I think the term you're looking for is push-polling. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/video/dlink/index.html?episodeID=8a25c3920ea9372f010eaac43cdb4a57]

There is also a difference in effects. Canvassing with a partisan message or canvassing a partisan crowd creates a negative [[externality]] on the community (as discussed by [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] above), so editors cannot "opt out". Bipartisan canvassing of uninvolved editors doesn't automatically create an externality, but it annoys many editors, so editors can potentially opt out and declare that they're open to solicitation. This seems to be [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]]'s main issue. Technically we could creatwe a userbox & category & template to "neutralize" this:

* '''Userbox''' "This user likes to be [[WP:CANVASS|informed]] about ongoing debates."

* '''Category''' [[:Category:Wikipedians open for canvassing]]

* '''Template''' {{tl|opinionrequested}}

** "Hello: Your opinion on [[WP:AFD/Article|Article]] is requested. <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>"

My hunch is that this will die out because people will eventually get annoyed with being canvassed, but it seems that would be an acceptable form of canvassing. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

With the exception of "Home," each episode has included one song. Each episode usually features a different style of music, such as blues in [[Eddie's Money]], and funk in [[The Hunt for Red Blobtober]]. So far, the songs that have premiered are as follows:

:I think that the above is a great idea : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 22:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

*'''Life Without Music''' ("Home Part 1")

*'''Throwdown''' ("Home Part 2")

*'''Oh, Peanut''' ("Peanuts! Get Yer Peanuts")

*'''Banana Zoo''' ("Funky Monkey")

*'''Fight the Blob''' ("The Hunt for Red Blobtober")

*'''A Richer Shade of Blue''' ("Eddie's Money")

*'''We Want Your Soul''' ("The Devil and Lil'D")

*'''U.F.O. Ninja''' ("Brotha From the Third Rock")

*'''Kim Kam Jam''' ("Westley Side Story")

*'''Luna Love''' ("Love Is in the Hair...Net")

==Main Cast==

::Likewise. And presumably, people who disregarded this template and removed legitimate messages would be liable for sanctions such as blocks, desysopping, and the like, which alleged canvassers already suffer. The rules cut both ways. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

* [[André 3000]] - Sunny Bridges

:::I have grave doubts that you can find consensus for that unless there is strong evidence for bad faith. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 09:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

* [[Small Fire]] - Li'l D

{{Wikipedia:Canvassing/Friendly|float=right}}

* [[Crystal Scales]] - Tamika Jones

[[Wikipedia:Canvassing/Friendly]] &larr; userbox. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 00:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

* [[Janice Kawaye]] - Kam, Kim

* [[Phil LaMarr]] - Philly Phil

* [[Tom Kenny]] - Edward “Eddie” Phillip James Lawrence III

* [[Jennifer Hale]] - Madison Spaghettini Papadopoulos

* [[Jeff Bennett]] - Principal Luna

==Cultural references==

==Intro/friendly reminder==

*In the music room, there are various paintings of famous musicians such as [[The Beatles]], [[Run DMC]], [[Billie Holiday]], and [[Big Boi]], which are usually different in each episode.

I removed the intro paragraph and restored the friendly reminder section, as it seem those two changes don't have consensus. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

*A poster of the show appeared in [[Re-Animated]].

:You know, in looking over the page...

:Since Votestacking has been merged with Campaigning...

:Perhaps this page should be renamed "Wikipedia:Campaigning". Since nearly the entire page has to do with that.

:This would give us the "best of both worlds". [[WP:SPAM]] links would still be accurate when dealing with all sorts of multiposts/campaigning/friendly notices, and yet the bulk of the "Campaigning" information can be split to this article.

:What do you think? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 14:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

* [[Quick Draw McGraw]] made a cameo appearance in the first episode in an invention by Philly Phil.

::Hm, based on my thoughts in the above thread, maybe we should figure out a "better" term for negative canvassing (and by corollary this page). - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 14:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::I would prefer to keep all advice on internal solicitation on one page, that was the reason for the spin-off in the first place. Spamming and solicitation are very unrelated activities, while soliciting, campaining and multiposting are related. So editors want to find out in one place where they differ and what is acceptable. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Ok. That said, then, I think that maybe we should refactor the page into acceptable/unacceptable sections, to make the dividing lines clearer. Also, take a look at the section "Dealing with canvassing". It still has the sense that all canvassing is evil. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 22:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::We can always revert to the version at [[WP:SPAM]] if this one is controversial. I have pretty much no opinion on that part. On refactoring, I agree, that's why I'm trying to organize the concepts into the table. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 00:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent) "Campaigning" is definitely a better term (IMHO); it even can be seen as stretching far enough to include forum shopping (as in, campaigning for a friendly admin). [[WP:SPAM]] can then include posts on user talk pages that are intended for commercial, religious, or similar purposes (which is what people think of as "spam"), while "campaigning" has to do with trying to get other editors to do something within Wikipedia. [[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] | [[User talk:John Broughton |Talk]] 20:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:In the table further down I've defined campaigning as canvassing with a partisan message, e.g. "Go here and vote Keep". So it would be a subset of canvassing. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 22:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*In the first episode, [[Oprah Winfrey]] is parodied, saying she'll give everyone in the audience a car(Audience cheers)ton of milk(audience boos). This is a reference to her always giving her audience a gift at the end of the [[Oprah Winfrey Show]].

==CfD canvassing==

Just by happenstance I was canvassed last night via e-mail to participate in a CfD discussion. I invited the interested editors to discuss this here. My comments about the solicitation:

# The invitation was neutral in tone and in my opinion the intent was to diversify the group of commenters, not to push a POV. So this was above board. Sometimes discussions suffer because they only attract a partisan crowd due to subject matter.

# The solicitation wasn't announced in the discussion (or I didn't see an announcement). That's the first problem.

# The solicitation came by email. That's two problems in one: 1. I mostly don't like getting emails on Wikipedia matters, that's what my talk page is for; and 2. Using email gives this solicitation an air of surreptitiousness.

I think most of the problems can be solved with my proposal above. 1. Stick to transparent means of soliciting. 2. Announce your efforts during the discussion. 3. Solicit opinions only from editors who asked for it. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

:I'll probably ruffle a few feathers here but I think CFD's are often under-advertised. Its the nature of category pages that very few editors contribute to the page and so don't have them on their watchlists, but many editors use them. Theres been a few cases where the first I've seen of a CFD debate is after the event when an admin deletes a category from an article I've been watching. CFD tend to be a small select group of editors who watch it frequently, and I guess most other editors don't have the time to regually watch it. Say take [[:Category:Wikipedian martial artists]], which is up for merging, this has not been publicised anwhere that I can see, yet it effects 45 users, most of whome are probably unaware of the change. This is itself is probably an uncontriversal discussion but there have been similar more contensious ones which can slip under the radar. --[[User:Salix alba|Salix alba]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]) 21:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

* In the episode ''Peanuts! Get Yer Peanuts!'', Madison makes a reference to the game [[Clue]] when she says, "Oooh! I pick Colonel Mustard, with the lead pipe, in the observatory!"

::Many things are underadvertised. My most recent blunder as an admin (I do make them) was not to inform the relevant Wikiproject before doing an uncontested but listed move. I just assumed they were watching, and apparently they weren't.

* When Sunny was a student, his dance teacher dumped water on him and his classmates (a reference to the film [[Flashdance]]). He has feared showers ever since.

::The existing guideline is not perfect by any means, IMO it's already too stringent. One of the people who canvassed me recently was blocked for 48 hours for doing it, despite the fact that '''''none''''' of the "victims" of this canvassing complained, and the reason given for the block was a '''''proposed''' guideline''. What a way to treat a newbie!

* In the episode ''Funky Monkey'', Lil' D is forced to chase after an escaped gorilla. At one point, in reference to the hit 1981 arcade game [[Donkey Kong]], he scales a building while dodging barrels and swinging a giant mallet. Also, in the song for the episode ("Banana Zoo"), the gorilla is depicted taking an impromptu bath, a reference to [[Bathing Ape]]. Sunny even says "Look at that ape, over there bathing."

::But on the other hand, the canvassing was successful, in that the decision went the way the canvasser wanted, and was quite close so it was probably affected. How do we correct that, if correction is needed? Canvas people on the other side?

*The episode title ''The Hunt For Red Blobtober'' is a reference to the movie [[The Hunt For Red October]] starring [[Sean Connery]].

::Next time, I guess this user (if they remain one) will contact me by email instead. What has that gained Wikipedia? The mind boggles.

*When the gang was venturing through a [[Pac-Man]]-like background in ''The Hunt for Red Blobtober'', Philly Phil was seen holding one of the powerups, the grapes. Eddie also made the classic "waka waka" sound during and after this scene, claiming it to be the sound he makes when he is scared.

::The spirit of Wiki is openness, lack of censorship, minimal control. This will undoubtedly be challenged as Wikipedia grows, we'll experiment with tighter control. This proposal is part of that. Some of these experiments have already been successful. But IMO this one is just [[Wikipedia:instruction creep|instruction creep]], and of course that compounds the problem of getting meaningful participation from the community as a whole. We'll see. Hang in there! [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 00:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*In ''The Hunt for Red Blobtober'', Cheddar Man parodied the movies [[Harry Potter]] (Harry Cheddar), [[The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe]] (The Lion, The Witch, and the Cheddarman), [[King Kong vs. Godzilla|Godzilla vs. King Kong]] (Godzilla vs. the Chedderman), [[Charlie and the Chocolate Factory]] (Charlie and the Cheddar Factory, Cheddar and the Chocolate Factory) and [[The Wizard of Oz]] (in production during the show).

:::You have no obligation whatsoever to inform a WikiProject. I don't know who told you that, but WikiProjects have no status that gives them right to be informed. If they want to be informed they can organize the monitoring among members. The idea that it is other editors' obligation to keep a WikiProject they have no connection to abreast is ridiculous on its face. We have gazillions of WikiProjects and 80% are moribund. Oh and campaigning for a deletion debate is unacceptable under [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]] too. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 00:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Quite so, see my response at [[Talk:ECW World Championship#Proposed move reversal]]. But IMO goodwill is far more important than the rules are in making Wikipedia work. Goodwill will overcome the faults in the rules, but regardless of how good the rules are they won't overcome a lack of goodwill.

::::I don't think that the result would have been changed if the Wikiproject had been informed, and even if it had been changed I don't think Wikipedia would be any better for that. It's one of my principles that if consensus can't be reached, then it doesn't really matter which way the decision goes. This is a bit radical perhaps, but I can't see how else it can work, and it does. Wikipedia is proof that it does.

::::But, if I'd informed the Wikiproject, I think we'd have reached a more comfortable decision, and Wikipedia would have been better for that. My blunder was not an obligation unfulfilled, there was no obligation as you rightly say. But it was an opportunity missed. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 01:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::I doubt that. You would've bought into the "Who moved my cheese" mindset that seems to prevail in the Project, and that never improves an organization. We provide reasonable mechanisms to keep those who care informed, but we're not there to drag people to the trough by their noserings. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::ISTM that I bought into that anyway, and that's part of the essential romance (;-> of [[WP:RM]]. It's an interesting Wikiproject, who would have thought that an entire industry of self-confessed fakers would attract such a following? But the job of a sysop isn't to make such judgements, fortunately. Not sure about the [[Nose piercing|noserings]], neither the wrestlers nor the fans seem the types to wear them. I could be wrong. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

* The key to the issue that User:Trialsanderrors raised is, I think, the transparency; I think that's best accomplished by placing a discreet notice on the AFD/CFD/whatever about solicitations. It could even be a small template: <nowiki>{{solicitations to:|x}}</nowiki> where x is "User/reason/by User:" / "Project/reason/by User:". Then anybody can add in their own list of solicitations. ... However, I think that it should be framed positively, as in "Transparency about soliciations is good form; here's a template to facilitate." with no adverse consequences. Sometimes people are a bit quick off the trigger to assume bad faith w/r/t failure to adhere to the increasingly arcane practices of the wikipedia community.

: Second - Specifying method of solicitation doesn't seem helpful, because there are probably users who prefer email or whatever. And it can't be enforced. And it's artificial IMO. Best to just leave it to out.

: --[[User:Lquilter|lquilter]] 19:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:I don't think this guideline should be about enforcement in the first place. It should be the first port of call for users who think they need to draw attention to a discussion that suffers from lack of attention/inbuilt bias by the editors who pay attention etc. The message should be 1. It's probably not a good idea, and 2. If you still think it's a good idea here is what you should do to keep it above board. I'd wager to say that blocking for canvassing is rare, and that most canvassing that occurs is in the "yellow" range that doesn't lead to penalties but that sidetracks the actual discussion into an "Is it ok to canvass?" discussion. If we can cut down on that and move some of the yellow canvassing attempts into the green range then this guideline serves a purpose. On email and transparency, if we actually implement the userbox solution and notify the discussion that they canvassed all willing editors then I believe transparency requirements are fulfilled, even if some of the editors prefer email notification. That's very similar to the "This discussion was included in XYZ" notifiers used by WikiProjects. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 19:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:: Yeah, I like the WikiProject notifiers you mention -- that's what I was thinking of, but something that could consolidate those notices with notices about other kinds of solicitations. Are there examples of the userboxes in operation for this kind of function that we could point to? I only look at them when I look at user pages. --[[User:Lquilter|lquilter]] 20:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

===Possible solutions===

One solution to the issues raised above, is to expand [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting]] into [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Discussion sorting]] per my comment on [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting#Expanding_project_scope]]. This would allow all WikiProjects to maintain a centralized watchlist for current discussions. Multiple tags could populate multiple WikiProject lists. Many WikiProjects already use the AFD lists. Another solution is to introduce a new article space for discussions only (AFD, CFD, TFD, RFC, RFA, RM, etc.) allowing bots to monitor that space and alert users for topic-related discussions on an opt-in basis. This would eliminate canvassing entirely. &mdash;[[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] | [[User talk:Viriditas|Talk]] 10:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

==Table update==

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; "

|-

| '''Type'''

| style="background:#efe;" | '''Accepted'''{{fn|1}} || ↔ || '''Not accepted''' || '''Term''' || '''Problem'''

|-

| Scale

| style="background:#efe;" | Limited posting || ↔ || Mass posting || Spamming || Unsolicited mass spamming annoys many editors{{fn|2}}

|-

| &nbsp;

| style="background:#efe;" | <small>AND || || <small>OR ||

|-

| Message

| style="background:#efe;" | Neutral language || ↔ || Partisan language || Campaigning/Push-polling || Undermines consensus finding in debates{{fn|3}}

|-

| &nbsp;

| style="background:#efe;" | <small>AND || || <small>OR ||

|-

| Audience

| style="background:#efe;" | Bipartisan || ↔ || Partisan || Vote-stacking || Undermines consensus finding

|-

| &nbsp;

| style="background:#efe;" | <small>AND || || <small>OR ||

|-

| Means

| style="background:#efe;" | Transparent || ↔ || Secret || Surreptitious canvassing || Raises questions of [[WP:AGF|bad faith]] intentions

|}

:{{fn|1}} Mass notifications that stay within the accepted range are considered '''friendly notices'''

:{{fn|2}} Editors disagree whether receiving mass postings and editors can ''opt in'' to receive such messages if they are acceptable otherwise.

:{{fn|3}} It is community consensus that campaigning, vote-stacking and surreptitious canvassing makes consensus-finding processes worse off as it encourages partisanship, cliques, log-rolling, and treating discussions like votes.

A more fleshed-out version of the table above, trying to clarify the terms and adding transparency as a desired characteristic to make cross-posting acceptable. I reused campaigning in the common meaning of the word as [[political campaigning]] to influence potentially undecided voters by using partisan advertising language. I also separated the consequencies to stress the difference, and why editors can opt in to one type of cross-posting but not another. Does this make sense? ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

* In ''The Devil and Lil'D'', there is a reference to the song ''[[The Devil Went Down to Georgia]]'' when Li'l D tries to win his soul back in a fiddling contest.

::It does. And I very much like the new table. It makes the most sense when one reads the first column first. (I was going to make my previous comment about "Campaigning", when I noticed the first column, which clarifies the "how and why" of the term.) I think the "problem" for the first one should be flashed out more. I think mass spamming isn't just that it annoys talk page owners. It's the fact that if allowed, and then '''''everyone''''' can, and likely will do so, what's to stop bot (or even AWB) owners from filling every userpage with hundreds of messages. Which creates a "wallpaper" situation, in which genuine talk page conversation is undermined. Perhaps that's the phrase: "Undermines (or interferes with) genuine talk page discussions." - I keep wanting to add "potentially" to the start of that phrase, and "Attempts to undermine" at the start of the next two on the table. While accurate, I suppose this could make the table "too long" for viewing purposes. Perhaps the answer is to remove that column entirely (since it already has 2 of the 3 "notes", and add a number column (1,2,3,4), and explain the problems with each below the table? (However, a possible problem with numbering is that it may give the idea that 1 is "more important" than 4, or something like that. Maybe just referring to each by "term" is enough.) And if you haven't heard it yet, very nice work : ) - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:::I agree the "Problem" column shouldn't appear in the final version, the three problems should be fleshed out in the main text, with "campaigning" and "Vote-stacking" combined since they have a similar effect on debates. I agree with your asessment of mass spamming, which is why I think that the "I like being canvassed" idea above isn't sustainable. Weh ave probably 500 deletion/page move/etc. debates going on every day, and certainly 50 to 100 where editors think they don't get enough attention. So while people might complain that the one or other message has been deleted from their talk page, there's a good chance that they will reconsider after getting 70 friendly notices every day. But if someone wants to implement it, I don't have an issue with it. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::::While they may be similar, I really liked how you distinguished them in the table, so I don't know now if they should be merged... - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::No problem, if it helps making the distinction clearer. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 00:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*In the episode ''Eddie's Money'', there is a reference to the [[Death Star]].

==Reset==

I restored the original version spun out from [[WP:SPAM#Canvassing]] with only minor changes. There are many good edits in the edit history, but it is becoming clear that the changes are considered a policy shift and are not likely to gain a consensus. We should treat this as an existing guideline and discuss nontrivial changes here before implementing them. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*In ''The Devil and Lil'D'', Sunny Bridges imitates [[Emeril Lagasse]] by shouting 'Bam!'

:I suppose I have to (reluctantly) agree on all three counts. I'll go through the last version and see what's possibly re-addable. Though based on the discussion above, perhaps we should ReOrg the page (retaining the content, of course) to match the table above? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::I'm certainly in favor of reediting. The teminology is very confusing and better organization wouldn't hurt either. It just got to the point where the policy debate got in the way of improving the guideine, and Quarl's edits, while certainly well-intended were probably a bit too fast for others to follow. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 21:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*In ''Westley Side Story'', Sunny Bridges imitates both [[Gollum]] and [[Gandalf]] from [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[Lord of the Rings]], by repeating that the blue ribbon is "his precious" and shouting "This shall not pass!" (He even had the staff.)

:Hang in there! The split is an excellent idea. I'm sorry it's got so tangled, and apologise if anything I've done has made it more difficult. That was the opposite of my intention.

==Trivia==

:But I have to say that as it stands this is not a fix. We now have two copies of the text, both marked ''official'', and likely to diverge in content. That's [[WP:CREEP|instruction creep]] at its worst.

{{toomuchtrivia}}

*There is a running gag that whenever a character throws something off-screen,someone that sounds like Kam exclaims, "Oww, my eye!!" If a second object is flung off-screen that person even says, "Oww, my other eye!!" But in "Brotha From the Third Rock", when Tamika threw a moon rock, someone with a voice like Madison also said, "Oww, my eye!!"

:If you want to go down this ''reset'' path, IMO you need to have a clean cutover, when the text in [[Wikipedia:spam]] is replaced by a nutshell summary and a wikilink. That's when this becomes the official copy. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 22:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*In several episodes, Eddie and Kam have no lines on their hair, as they usually do.

::I'm perfectly fine with deleting the text in [[WP:SPAM]]. This was the original intent since internal and external spamming have very little in common. That just got put on hold because of the editing, policy SHift, switch to "proposed", etc. Which is why I reset in the first place. If we agree that canvassing should be covered here then we should remove the text at [[WP:SPAM]] post haste. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 22:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

* Lil'D wore a 1970's Atlanta Braves baseball cap in the first episode (though during the Throwdown and Life Without Music music videos, he wore the sailor hat).

:::I would like to wait until this page is more "stable". Perhaps an "under construction/discussion" template at the top? - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

*The episode ''Home'' had a music scene called "Life Without Music". The character artwork was directed by [[John Kricfalusi]] and [[Katie Rice]].

:::The removal of the text from [[WP:SPAM]] of course requires consensus on its own talk page, rather than here. See [[Wikipedia talk:Spam#Official cutover]]. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 00:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*In the episode ''Funky Monkey'', Kim and Kam claim that they weight 60 pounds, 27 kilograms or 14 [[stone (weight)|stone]]. 14 stone is equal to 196 pounds or 89 kilograms.

::::Can't hurt, but the thread directly above, [[WT:SPAM#WP:CANVASS]] already expressed unanimous consensus to ''move'', not to duplicate, and the ''Proposal to move'' tag in the actual text did not trigger any opposition in the last ten days. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 00:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*In the song "Banana Zoo," the singer who voiced the dog in [[Outkast]]'s video "Morris Brown" was the voice of Momo.

:::::That's my impression too. Actually, I've quite deliberately put [[Wikipedia talk:Spam#Official cutover]] at an extra level of heading depth, so it becomes '''part of''' [[WT:SPAM#WP:CANVASS]]. But if you're happy that there's consensus to do the ''move'', why is there now this duplication? [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 02:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*The [[Atlanta]] Skyline is shown several times in the show. The Skyline is actually very accurate, which features buildings like the Georgia State Capital, [[191 Peachtree Tower]], [[SunTrust Plaza]], [[Georgia-Pacific Tower]], [[Westin Peachtree Plaza]] and several real-life mid to lowrises in Atlanta. So far, only the Downtown Atlanta Skyline has been shown.

::::::The pain of discussing things on two forums at the same time (aka multiposting). I completed the move. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 02:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

==External links==

:::::::Point taken! (;-> Progress. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

*[http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/promotion_landing_page/classof3000/index.html Official site]

* [http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/ny-ettvtwo4956360nov03,0,7835774.story?coll=ny-television-headlines "An OutKast 'toons up for the kids"], ''Newsday'', Nov. 3, 2006, Diane Werts.

{{Cartoon Network Original Series}}

[[Category:2006 television program debuts]]

==Definitions==

[[Category:2000s American television series]]

OK, I think first need for improvement is to get the definitions right. First draft:

[[Category:Animated television series]]

*'''Internal spamming''' is sending prefabricated messages to many Wikipedians directly to their talk pages or email accounts.

[[Category:Television shows set in Georgia (U.S. state)]]

*'''Canvassing''' is soliciting the opinions of other Wikipedians via internal spamming.

*'''Campaigning''' is canvassing with a partisan appeal, e.g. "please go here vote to overturn".

*'''Votestacking''' (rallying the troops?) is targeted canvassing to a partisan audience, e.g. only keep or delete !voters in a prior discussion, or self-identified deletionists or inclusionists.

*'''Stealth canvassing''' is canvassing conducted to be undetectable to outsiders, e.g. via email or restricted mail lists.

*'''Friendly notices''' are notifications that are open, neutral in tone, and directed at a bipartisan and small audience.

I think we can turn those into short and comprehensive definitions. ~ [[User:Trialsanderrors|trialsanderrors]] 05:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)