|
[[Image:Côte de Granite Rose Brittany France.JPG|right|380px|thumb|Brittany has an expansive coastline]]
{{onlinesource2004|section=October 2004
[[Image:Flag of Brittany.svg|160px|thumb|[[Flag of Brittany]] (Gwenn-ha-du)]]
| title=Ramadan: Muslims annual month of fasting, prayer begins this week
[[Image:Bretagne_historique.png|250px|thumb|Historical province of Brittany]]
| date=9 October 2004
:''This article is about the historical kingdom, duchy and French province, as well as one of the Celtic nations. For the current French administrative ''région'' of Bretagne, see [[Bretagne]]. For other meanings, see [[Brittany (disambiguation)]].''
| org=Virgin Islands Daily News
| url=http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_features?id=7607792}}
'''Brittany''' ([[Breton language|Breton]]: ''Breizh'' [[International Phonetic Alphabet|pronounced]] {{IPA|/bʁejs/}} ; [[French language|French]]: ''Bretagne'', [[International Phonetic Alphabet|pronounced]] {{IPAudio|fr-Bretagne.ogg|/bʁətaɲ/}}; [[Gallo language|Gallo]]: ''Bertaèyn'') is a former independent [[kingdom]] and [[duchy]], and a [[Provinces of France|province of France]]. Brittany is one of the six [[Celtic Nations]]. It is also, more generally, the name of the cultural area whose limits correspond to the old province and independent duchy.
'''To discuss the proposed split of this article, see the [[Talk:Ramadan#New approach|New Approach section]].
The historical province of Brittany was split between two modern-day ''[[région]]s'' of [[France]]. 80% of Brittany has become the ''région'' of [[Bretagne]], while the remaining 20% of Brittany ([[Loire-Atlantique]] ''[[département]]'' with its ''[[préfecture]]'' [[Nantes]], one of the former capitals of the duchy of Brittany) has been grouped with other historical provinces ([[Anjou]], [[Maine (province of France)|Maine]], and so on) to create the ''région'' of [[Pays-de-la-Loire]] (that is "lands of the [[Loire River|Loire]]"). For the reasons behind the splitting-up of Brittany, and the current debate around a reunification, see the [[Bretagne]] article.
== Front Page? ==
Brittany occupies a large [[peninsula]] in the northwest of France, lying between the [[English Channel]] to the north and the [[Bay of Biscay]] to the south. Its land area is 34,034 [[1 E10 m²|km²]] (13,137 sq. mi). The region is divided into five departments: to the west is [[Finistere]], [[Côtes-d'Armor]] lies to the North, [[Ille-et-Vilaine]] is in the north-east, [[Loire-Atlantique]] is to the south-east and [[Morbihan]] lies in the middle.
I think this article should be featured on the front page, since tomorrow is the first day of ramadan
([[User:SeanMcG|SeanMcG]] 02:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC))
In January [[2005]] the population of Brittany was estimated at 4,271,000 inhabitants. 72% of these live in the Bretagne ''région'', while 28% of these live in the Pays-de-la-Loire ''région''. At the [[1999]] census, the largest metropolitan areas were [[Nantes]] (711,120 inhabitants), [[Rennes]] (521,188 inhabitants), and [[Brest, France|Brest]] (303,484 inhabitants).
== Partial Response ==
==History==
Having sexual relations between sunset and sunrise are permissible. With regards to making the [[ghusl]] (compulsory bath after such relations), I'm not sure if it is necessary to have it done before fasting begins. However, one should do it before the time for [[Salah|Fajr]] is over, as prayer is not accepted until one performs the Ghusl.
:''Main articles: [[History of Brittany]] and [[Prehistory of Brittany]]
[[Image:Carnac megalith alignment 3.jpg|thumb|220px|The [[megalith|megalithic]] alignments at [[Carnac]] testify to the organisation of the prehistoric population of Brittany]]
[[Image:Château de Vitré Place St-Yves.JPG|thumb|220px|Fortress of [[Vitré, Ille-et-Vilaine|Vitré]], on the Brittany Marches]]
: I think you are mistaken. most Muslim sects (shi'a and sunni) do not allow any sexual contact between men and women during the day until magrib, regardless if you do ghusl or not. ([[User:SeanMcG|SeanMcG]] 02:53, 5 October 2005 (UTC))
Human habitation in the area now called Brittany goes back to the late [[Paleolithic]], or Epi-Palaeolithic, period. Megaliths erected in the 5th of the [[Veneti (Gaul)|Veneti]], [[Osismii]], [[Namneti]], [[Coriosolitithe]] area in the [[Iron Age]].
In [[56 BC]] the area was conquered by the [[Roman Republic|Romans]] under [[Julius Caesar]]. The Romans called the district ''[[Armorica]]'' (a [[Latin]]isation of a Celtic word meaning "coastal region"), within the larger province of ''[[Gallia Lugdunensis]]''. The modern ''[[département in France|département]]'' of [[Côtes-d'Armor]] has taken up the ancient name. After the collapse of the Roman empire, Britons, or [[Celts]] from [[Great Britain]], displaced by the Saxon colonisation of what became [[England]], settled in Brittany, and it is from this period its present names date. It is believed that the Breton language is the result of this immigration rather than a continuation of [[Gaulish]].
: I believe you're both right (well, almost). The first poster is referring to between sunset and sunrise, during the nighttime. Sexual intercourse is permissible during the nighttime, but not up until sunrise. Fasting begins at dawn, the start of the fajr prayer time, not sunrise, the end of the fajr prayer time. It is not necessary to have ghusl before the start of fasting; one can even engage in sexual intercourse up until the start of the fajr prayer (and fasting) time, if desired. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 21:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
An excruciating [[Normans|Norman]] siege of [[Dinan]] (seen on the [[Bayeux Tapestry]]) influenced chief male ancestors of the late [[House of Stuart]], also an important maternal line to the present [[Duke of Norfolk]], to relocate to [[Great Britain]]. Bretons also accompanied the [[Norman conquest of England]], emigrating mostly to what became [[Richmondshire]] (in Yorkshire).
:: Oh it's desired. Believe me, it's desired! - [[Indian-American|Kumar]]
==Far North?Sights==
Brittany is famous for its [[megalith]]ic monuments, which are scattered over the [[peninsula]], the largest alignments are near [[Carnac]]. The purpose of these monuments is still unknown, and many local people are reluctant to entertain speculation on the subject. The words ''[[dolmen]]'' (from "daol" table and "maen" stone) and ''[[menhir]]'' (from "maen" stone and "hir" high) come from the Breton language, even though they are hardly used in Breton.
Brittany is also known for its [[calvary|calvaries]], elaborately carved sculptures of crucifixion scenes, to be found in churchyards of villages and small towns, especially in Western Brittany.
What do Muslims living north of the [[Arctic Circle]] do? Surely in places where the sun doesn't set for three or four months straight, they don't all travel south for Ramadan if it falls in the summertime? [[User:Grendelkhan|grendel]]|[[User_talk:Grendelkhan|khan]] 03:30, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)
:They can follow time schedule of the nearest Muslim authority, e.g in Sweden, Canada, etc. [[User:DiN|DiN]] 20:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Significant urban centres include:
== Are the dates correct for the 2005 Ramadan? ==
* [[Nantes]] / Naoned
The dates do not look right for 2005. However, I am not a Muslim so I do not know for sure. Could a Muslim (or someone who knows for sure) check on that and correct it if necessary?
* [[Rennes]] / Roazhon
* [[Brest, France|Brest]] / Brest
* [[Lorient]] / an Oriant
* [[Quimper]] / Kemper
* [[Vannes]] / Gwened
* [[Redon, Ille-et-Vilaine|Redon]] / Redon
* [[Saint-Brieuc]] / Sant-Brieg
* [[Saint-Nazaire]] / Sant-Nazer
[[Image:Saintmalo.jpg|thumb|220px|The walled city of [[Saint-Malo]] was a former stronghold of corsaires]]
--------
The walled city of [[Saint-Malo]] (Sant-Maloù), a popular tourist attraction, is also an important [[seaport|port]] linking Brittany with [[England]] and the [[Channel Islands]]. It also was the birthplace of the acclaimed author [[François-René de Chateaubriand|Chateaubriand]] and explorer [[Jacques Cartier]]. The town of [[Roscoff]] (Rosko) is served by [[ferry]] links with England and [[Ireland]].
The island of [[Île d'Ouessant|Ushant]] (Breton: ''Enez Eusa'', French: ''Ouessant'') is the north-westernmost point of Brittany and France, and marks the entrance of the English Channel. Other islands off the coast of Brittany include:
Dates for Ramadan - starts around Oct. 4, 2005
*[[Bréhat]] / enez Vriad
AbdurRahman -- http://www.Hilalplaza.com
*[[Batz]] / enez Vaz
*[[Molène]] / Molenez
*[[Sein]] / enez Sun
*[[Glénan islands]] / inizi Glenan
*[[Groix]] / enez Groe
*[[Belle Île]] / ar Gerveur
*[[Houat]] / Houad
*[[Hoëdic]] / Edig
*[[Île-aux-Moines]] / Enizenac'h
*[[Île d'Arz]] / an Arzh
==Language==
WTF is backbiting?
[[Image:Road signs bilingual Breton in Quimper.jpg|thumb|Bilingual road signs can be seen in traditional Breton-speaking areas]]
[[Image:BlasonBRETAGNE.jpg|100px|thumb|Traditional coat of arms]]
[[French language|French]], the only [[official language]] of the French Republic, is today spoken throughout Brittany. The two [[regional language]]s have no official status with regards to the state, although they are supported by the regional authorities within the strict constitutional limits: [[Breton language|Breton]], strongest in the west but to be seen all over Brittany, is a [[Celtic language]] most closely related to [[Cornish language|Cornish]] (Breton has in fact slightly more in common with Cornish than Welsh), and [[Gallo language|Gallo]], which is spoken in the east, is one of the [[Oïl languages]].
roughly the same as backstabbing, if I remember right. --[[User:TomaydoDemato|TomaydoDemato]] 17:00, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
From the very beginning of its history and despite the end of the independence of Brittany, Breton remained the language of the entire population of western Brittany, if not bishops and French administrators or officers. French laws and economic pressure led people to abandon their language to the one of the ruler, but until the 1960s, Breton was spoken and understood by the majority of the western inhabitants. Since the beginning of the 20th century, it has been very efficiently fought by the French administration and educational system (''"It is forbidden to spit on the ground and to speak Breton"'') in the process of promoting [[French language|French]] as the sole language of the country.
Backbiting might refer to [[Marv Albert]].
Breton was traditionally spoken in the west (the "[[Breizh-Izel]]" or "[[Basse-Bretagne]]"), and Gallo in the east (the "pays Gallo" or "[[Haute-Bretagne]]"). The dividing line stretched from Plouha on the north coast to a point to the south-west of Vannes. French had, however, long been the main language of the towns. The Breton-speaking area formerly covered territory much further east than its current distribution.
: Haha, but no to whoever made the last comment. The comment before that isn't quite right either. Backbiting is basically talking bad things about someone behind their back. That's not what backstabbing means. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 02:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
In the Middle Ages, Gallo expanded into formerly Breton-speaking areas. Now restricted to a much reduced territory in the east of Brittany, Gallo finds itself under pressure from the dominant Francophone culture. It is also felt by some to be threatened by the Breton [[language revival]] which is gaining ground in territories that were never part of the main Breton-speaking area.
I changed it to angry/sarcastic retorts.
Privately funded ''Diwan'' ("Seed") schools, where classes are taught in Breton by the immersion method, play an important part in the revival of the Breton language. The issue of whether they should be funded by the State has long been, and remains, controversial. Some bilingual classes are also provided in ordinary schools.
== WikiProject Holidays ==
Despite the resistance of French administration, bilingual (Breton and French) road signs may be seen in some areas, especially in the traditional Breton-speaking area. Signage in Gallo is much rarer.
'''You may be interested in the WikiProject, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Holidays|WikiProject Holidays]], a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers.''' — [[User:Ilyanep|<span style="color:gray;">Ilγαηερ</span>]] [[User talk:Ilyanep|<span style="color: #333333;">(Tαlκ)</span>'']] 21:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
A large influx of English-speaking immigrants and [[second-home]] owners in some villages sometimes adds to linguistic diversity.
== Error in "Islamic Calendar for the month of Ramadan" ? ==
==Music==
How come there are two days of "22nd" in Ramadan ? I assume it's an error. I don't know how to fix it as I don't understand the codes for the wikitable. Can someone fix it, please ? We need to get this fixed before Ramadan starts in 2 days. People may be searching for this page. Thanks. -- [[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] 14:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
{{Main|Music of Brittany}}
Some of the musicians for which Brittany is known are: the most famous, [[Alan Stivell]], but also [[Denez Prigent]], les frères Guichen, Carré Manchot, Ar Re Yaouank, Sonerien Du, Loened Fall, [[Yann Tiersen]], etc.
==Religion==
Ramadan is about getting close to Allah, it is the 9th Islamic month. Muslims fast because to feel how poor people live. Muslims just eat before sunrise and after sunset. It is no harm for muslims to fast if they belive in Allah and his messenger.
[[Image:Bretagne Finistere StJeanTrolimon 11032.jpg|thumb|Sculpted "calvaries" can be found in many villages]]
The first Christian missionaries came to the region from [[Ireland]] and [[Great Britain]]. With more than 300 "[[saint]]s" (only a few recognized by the Catholic Church), the region is strongly [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholic]]. Since the nineteenth century at least, Brittany has been known as one of the most devoutly Catholic regions in France, in contrast to many other more secularised areas. The proportion of students attending Catholic private schools is the highest in France. As in other Celtic regions, the legacy of [[Celtic Christianity]] has left a rich tradition of local saints and monastic communities, often commemorated in place names beginning ''Lan'', ''Lam'', ''Plou'' or ''Lok''. The [[patron saint]] of Brittany is Santez Anna [[Saint Anne]], the Virgin's mother. But the most famous saint is Saint [[Ivo of Kermartin]] ('saint Yves' in French, 'sant Erwan' in Breton), a [[13th century|13th-century]] priest who devoted his life to the poor.
==fasting & water==
Once a year, believers go on a "pardon", the saint's [[feast day]] of the [[parish]]. It often begins with a procession followed by a mass in honour of the saint. There is always a pagan side, with some food and craft stalls. The three most famous pardons are:
I am curious about whether drinking water is permissible during the fasting period. If so, is there a restriction on the amount of water that can be drunk during this time? Thank you.
* from Sainte-Anne d'Auray/Santez-Anna-Wened, where a poor farmer in the 17th century assured the saint give him the order to build a chapel in her honour.
* from Tréguier/Landreger, in honour of St Yves, the patron saint of the judges, advocates, and any profession involved in justice.
* from Locronan/Lokorn, in honour of St Ronan, with a ''troménie'' (a procession, 12 km-long) and numerous people in traditional costume,
In Brittany, there is a very old [[pilgrimage]] called the ''Tro Breizh'' (tour of Brittany), where the pilgrims walk around Brittany from the grave of one founder saint to another. The seven founder saints of Brittany are:
* St [[Pol Aurelian]], at Saint-Pol-de-Leon/Kastell-Paol,
* St [[Saint Tudwal|Tudual]] (''sant Tudwal''), at Tréguier/Landreger,
* St Brieuc, at Saint-Brieuc/S-Brieg,
* St Malo, at Saint-Malo/S-Maloù,
* St [[Samson of Dol]], at Dol,
* St Patern, at Vannes/Gwened
* St Corentin (''sant Kaourintin''), at Quimper/Kemper
Historically, the pilgrimage was made in one go (a total distance of around 600 km). Nowadays, however, pilgrims complete the circuit over the course of several years. In 2002, the Tro-Breizh included a special pilgrimage to [[Wales]], symbolically making the reverse journey of the Welshmen Sant Paol, Sant Brieg, and Sant Samzun. Whoever does not make the pilgrimage at least once in his lifetime will be condemned to make it after his death, advancing only by the length of his coffin each 7 year.
Drinking even a single drop of water (or any other thing) is not permissible during fasting.--[[User:Khalid!|Khalid!]] 17:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Some old pagan traditions and customs from the old Celtic religion have also been preserved in Brittany. The most powerful folk figure is the [[Ankou]] or the "Reaper of Death" because even [[Jesus]] and the [[Mary, mother of Jesus|Virgin Mary]] obey him. He is a skeleton wrapped in a shroud with the Breton flat hat. He makes his journeys by night carrying an upturned scythe which he throws before him to reap his harvest. Sometimes he is on foot but mostly he travels in a cart, the Karrig an Ankou, drawn by two oxen and a lean horse. Two servants dressed in the same shroud and hat as the Ankou pile the dead into the cart, and to hear it creaking at night means you have little time left to live.
: Unless you really need it. The Sick, elderly and infirm etc can go ahead, likewise children and ladies during ''that time''. Aside from that it's a pure fast - No eating; No Drinking. --[[User:Irishpunktom|Irishpunktom]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Irishpunktom|talk]]</sup> 14:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
==Gastronomy==
:: "Unless you really need it" is not entirely correct. If the sick, elderly, or infirm do eat or drink even a drop of water, it still breaks their fast. It's just not a sin, since there's a valid reason. As now stated in the main article, they are required to make up for each day missed or feed a needy person for each day missed. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 21:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Although some white [[wine]] is produced near the [[Loire River|Loire]], the traditional drinks of Brittany are:
* [[cider]] ([[Breton language|Breton]]: ''chistr'') - Brittany is the second largest cider-producing region in France;
* a sort of [[mead]] made from wild honey called ''[[chouchen]]'';
* an apple [[eau de vie]] called ''lambig''.
Some [[beer]]s are also now produced. Historically Brittany was a beer producing region, however, due to import of wine from other regions of France, beer drinking and production slowly came to an end in the early to mid 20th century. In the 1970s, due to a regional comeback, new beer breweries started to open. Around twenty breweries are now open.
== Timing and Moon Sighting controversy ==
[[Whisky]] is also being produced, and there is a small handful of distilleries that produce excellent whiskies. Another recent drink is the ''[[kir]] Breton'' ([[Creme de cassis|crème de cassis]] and cider) which may be served as an [[apéritif]].
Very thin, wide [[pancakes]] made from [[buckwheat]] flour are eaten with ham, eggs and other savoury fillings. They are usually called ''[[galette]]s'' (Breton ''galetes''), except in the western parts of Brittany where they are called ''[[crêpe]]s'' (Breton ''krampouezh''). Thin crêpes made from wheat flour are eaten for [[dessert]]. Other [[pastry|pastries]], such as ''[[kouign amann]]'' ("butter cake" in Breton) made from bread dough, butter and sugar, or ''[[far (breton)|far]]'', a sort of sweet [[Yorkshire pudding]], or ''[[clafoutis]]'' with prunes, are traditional.
This page has been getting a some reverts concerning whether a moon sighting is required for Muslims to consider the month to have begun. I understand that some Muslims feel it is necessary, but I would like to cite (pun intended) a couple of sources which show that not all Muslims are in accord. Consider: communities in Daytona [http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Local/03AreaEAST05100405.htm], El Paso [http://www.borderlandnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051006/NEWS/51006001/1001] and even in Qatar [http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&subsection=Qatar+News&month=October2005&file=Local_News2005100433244.xml] celebrated on the 4th, although the new moon was not sighted until the 5th. On the other hand, some communities in South Asia [http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0510053369152906.htm] waited as long as until the 6th for a moon sighting (although politics was partly involved in this case).
Surrounded by the sea, Brittany offers a wide range of fresh sea food and fish, especially [[mussel]]s and [[oyster]]s. Among the sea food specialities is [[cotriade]].
: It certainly is true that some places didn't rely on a physical sighting, but that doesn't make it right. However, starting a day early is not as bad as starting a day late. But, Ramadan officially starts for a locality when it sees the new moon, regardless of whether it really did occur the day before. If we were to rely on calculations to determine when a month started, the whole purpose of having a simple, universalized lunar calendar would be defeated. The hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) states "Fast when you see [the new moon] and break your fast when you see it." In addition, when Muhammad's son Ibrahim died under a solar eclipse (27-Jan-632 CE), it was noted that two days later (29-Jan-632 CE) would be the first of the following month. Given solar eclipses can only occur on the day of a new moon, that would provide evidence that new months only begin when the new, waxing crescent is physically sighted. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 21:36, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
==Climate==
Some1 keeps deleting "disputed, see below". The reason i wrote in the 1st place was that it is disputed, almost half of the muslims dont even accept 4th Oct as the 1st day of ramadan.
Since Brittany is on the west coast of France, it has a warm temperate climate. Rainfall occurs regularly - which has helped keep its countryside green and wooded - but sunny, cloudless days are also common.
Im adding it again.--[[User:Khalid!|Khalid!]] 14:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
In the summer months, Brittany can reach temperatures of about 30 degrees [[Celsius]], but is still comfortable compared to parts of France south of the [[Loire River]]. It generally has a moderate climate during both [http://www.discover-brittany.info/pics/climatesummer.gif summer] and [http://www.discover-brittany.info/pics/climatewinter.gif winter], and rain is not uncomfortably common or rare.
: I don't agree with the North American mosques that started on 4-October either, but the point is that the previous sentence says that those days are "estimated" and therefore it is implied that the dates are not exact. As for whether to put 4-October or 5-October, 4-October is more appropriate because there was indeed a new moon the night of 3-October. Although the calculated time of the new moon is irrelevant in deciding the first day of Ramadan, because some places, including Saudi Arabia, started Ramadan on 4-October and because a new moon did occur the night before, we should leave the disputed comment next to 4-October out and let the word 'estimated' speak for itself. I removed the word 'disputed', but comprimised with a general statement about disputes involving the start date of Ramadan. Instead of singling out 2005, it would probably be better to mention why disputes about the start of the month occur. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 16:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The most popular summer resorts are on the south coast ([[La Baule-Escoublac|La Baule]], [[Belle Île]], [[Gulf of Morbihan]]), although the wilder and more exposed north coast also attracts summer tourists.
: : Regardless of the religious debate, Ramadan was celebrated as if it began on the 4th for many people who could not have seen the new moon. As an encyclopedia, I think it is important that we recognize the fact that both interpretations are actual definitions of the start of Ramadan for many people. I think that there should maybe be a sub-sub-section to the timing section which explains this, mentioning both the relevent hadith(s) and how things are done in different communities. I think, saying disputed, however, is unnecessary, as this is likely to re-occur often somewhere, and saying that the dates given are astronomical estimates should be sufficient. [[User:Smmurphy|Smmurphy]] 16:22, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
==Transport==
== The Calendar Table ==
There are several airports in Brittany serving destinations in France and England. [[TGV]] train services link the région with cities such as [[Paris]], [[Lyon]], [[Marseille]], and [[Lille]] in France. In addition there are ferry services that take passengers, vehicles and freight to Ireland, England and the Channel Islands.
==Trivia about Brittany==
I just deleted the "calendar" on the Ramadan page. Since I know some people are going to wonder why, I'll explain. The table looked like this:
* The Breton national anthem [[Bro Goz ma Zadoù|Bro Gozh ma Zadoù]] is set to the same tune as the [[Wales|Welsh]] and [[Cornwall|Cornish]] anthems.
* A number of [[Breton]] independence groups exist and they enjoy increasing, but minority, support in [[election]]s.
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center"
|colspan="7"|'''Islamic Calendar for the month of Ramadan'''
|-
|01. ||02. ||03. ||04. ||05. ||06. ||07.
|-
|08. ||09. ||10. ||11. ||12. ||13. ||14.
|-
|15. ||16. ||17. ||18. ||19. ||20. ||[[21 Ramadan|21]].
|-
|22. ||23. ||24. ||25. ||26. ||[[Laylat al-Qadr|27]]. ||28.
|-
|29. ||30. ||colspan="2"|[[Sha'aban|Last Month]]||colspan="3" |[[Shawwal|Next Month]]
|}
* Another famous Breton is the girl [[Bécassine]] (http://www.wnsstamps.ch/stamps/FR053.05/fr.html), a character from a strip cartoon.
* Legendary road bicycle racer [[Bernard Hinault]] was born in the town of Yffiniac in Brittany.
In case you don't realize, this table provides very little information. It simply shows the integers from one to thirty in a table with seven columns; there is no correspondence between column and day of the week. "Islamic Calendar for the month of Ramadan" is an unnecessary descriptor. A title similar to "The Month of Ramadan" would have sufficed. And even then, that would have been redundant considering the article is entitled Ramadan. So "Calendar" would have been even better.
* [[Henry VII of England|King Henry VII]] spent quite some time living in Brittany ([[1471]] - [[1485]]).
There are four links in the table. One is for 21 Ramadan, which actually has no significance in Islam. The second link is for Laylat al-Qadr, which is linked to in the first paragraph and several other places. In addition, by created a link from '27' to Laylat al-Qadr, it is implied that that is the definite date of that event. As explained in the first paragraph of the article (and in the Laylat al-Qadr article), that date is not fixed or certain. The remaining two links go to the next and previous month of the calendar. Those too are unnecessary considering there is a separate, more informative table later in the document that shows all twelve months of the Islamic calendar.
==See also==
So, if anyone has a reason to put back the "Islamic Calendar" table, please post here. If someone could concur with me that would also be great. The table that used to be on the Ramadan page certainly had some potential, but as it was, it had no information to bring to the table. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 20:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
*[[Battle for Brest]]
:I agree. I think that the Muslim templates are pretty mediocre in general, and either do not give much information or are unsightly (or both). OTOH, it may be nice to include links to holidays and months together in one template (ie merge muslimholidays and muslim months templates) so that you quickly can see which days of the month are special enough to merit an article when you are in that month's page, and similar information when you are at a holiday. [[User:Smmurphy|Smmurphy]] 21:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
*[[:br:|Wikipedia in Breton]]
*[[Bleimor (Breton Scouting organization)]]
*[[List of twin towns in the United Kingdom#Cornwall|Twinning/Jumelage between Breton and Cornish towns]]
==External links==
== "Ramadan or Ramadhan" ==
{{Wikisource1911Enc|Brittany}}
* [http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/ Brittany Press Agency]
* [http://www.webbreton.com/ Guide and Reference about Brittany]
* [http://brittany.france-province.net Over Brittany in pictures]
* [http://www.breizh.net/identity/ Personelezh Breizh e saozneg - Breton identity in English]
* [http://www.histoire-bretagne.com/ Istor Breizh- History of Brittany]
* [http://www.ofis-bzh.org Ofis ar brezhoneg - Office of the Breton Language]
* [http://www.antourtan.org/radio_fr.html Skingomz e Breizh - Brittany Radios]
* [http://www.chez.com/buan1/history_of_brittany.htm Istor Breizh e saozneg - History of Brittany in English]
* [http://www.brittany-bretagne.com/pg/dates.htm Deizoù Istor Breizh e saozneg - Dates of Brittany's History in English]
*[http://brittany.angloinfo.com/ AngloINFO Bretagne] residents' information in English
*[http://france-for-visitors.com/brittany/index.html Visiting Brittany]
*[http://poormansfortune.com/ Breton music in the USA] - In English
*[http://www.houseinbrittany.com/ Information & Accommodation in Brittany] - In English
*Self catering accommodation in Brittany: [http://www.brittanygite.co.uk]
*[http://www.bretonsdumonde.org/ Bretoned ar bed - Bretons du Monde]
* [http://www4.culture.fr/patrimoines/patrimoine_architectural_et_mobilier/sribzh/main.xsp?execute=parsed_query&query=region:|Bretagne|&tri=region&tri=dpt&tri=com&tri=adrstri&tri=lieu&tri=edif&tri=tico {{fr}} Cultural Heritage]
{{Celtic nations}}
Ramadhan ... "dh" is ordinarily transliteration for the letter ذ, not ض, no?
: The month is more commonly known as "Ramadan" in English, and that is why it is so named. --[[User:Irishpunktom|Irishpunktom]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Irishpunktom|talk]]</sup> 12:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Brittany|*]]
:: Err, I think the question is about whether the alternate spelling offered meets transliteration norms, i.e., "dh" is usually used to represent a letter which sounds like "th" in the word "the," also sometimes transliterated as a "z," hence the spelling "Ramadhan" -- with a "dh" transliteration rather than a "d" -- being the root of the frequency of use of the spelling/pronunciation "Ramazan." Or, "are we shooting for accuracy or just common usage." Unless, of course, I have that all backwards. ;) --[[User:Liquesce|M. Landers]] 20:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
[[af:Bretagne]]
== Prohibitions ==
[[ast:Bretaña]]
[[br:Breizh]]
[[Masturbation]] is not permitted between dawn and dusk. I thought it was ''haraam'' period, and is never actually permitted. Yes? [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] 13:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
[[cy:Llydaw]]
:I removed the masturbation reference upon consideration. It seemed to equate it with eating, drinking and sexual intercourse in general--i.e., acceptable when not fasting, only not acceptable when fasting. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] 00:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
[[da:Bretagne]]
[[de:Bretagne]]
::You might want to have [[sexuality in Islam]] reflect that. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 12:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
[[et:Bretagne]]
[[es:Bretaña]]
The sexuality page says disliked but not ''haraam.'' I've seen other sources with the opposite: [http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=46]. I think the trouble is the [[Qu'ran]] never explicitly mentions it, and the idea that it is ''haraam'' is inferred from general comments on keeping oneself chaste. Now (while admitting no special expertise whatsoever) I understand that inferences of this sort are discouraged and thus some scholars could be led to conclude masturbation is neither lawful nor unlawful. The following line I thought interesting: ''the lesser evil is to be suffered in order to fend off the major one,'' i.e., if it's a choice between masturbation and adultery the former is allowed [http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543914]. I'll think over it some more and perhaps others have comments. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] 12:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
[[eo:Bretonio]]
[[eu:Bretainia]]
==Two in one==
[[fr:Bretagne]]
[[ga:An Bhriotáin]]
This article is in essence two articles in one, the month of Ramadan and its practices, and a article about [[Islamic fasting]]. This is not correct. In the same way as [[Laylat al-Qadr]] has its own article, so needs [[Islamic fasting]]/[[Sawm]] have its own article. A muslim is prescribed to fast during several other events such as breaking an oath or certain dates. Im going to fix that. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 20:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
[[gd:A' Bhreatainn Bheag]]
[[he:ברטאן]]
:So, done. I have not deleted any material, only re-organized and moved. Hope nobody objects. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 21:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
[[hr:Bretanja]]
[[it:Bretagna]]
::Hmm... The fasting section takes a unproportional big space in a article about a Islamic Month. I will set upp a separate article for it [[Islamic Fasting on the Islamic month of Ramadan]], in the same way that we have [[Night of Destiny]], [[Eid ul-Fitr]] and [[tarawih]], all three only related to the month of Ramadan. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:18, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
[[kw:Breten Vyghan]]
[[la:Britannia minor]]
I object, strongly, and have reverted the page to the pre-Striver version. Striver, you can't just post on the talk page, say "Any objections?", wait five minutes, and then proceed to a major reorganization. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 04:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
[[nl:Bretagne]]
[[ja:ブルターニュ地域圏]]
:So, what is the objection, the strong one? I hope you didnt revert just out of spite. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 19:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
[[no:Bretagne]]
[[nrm:Brétangne]]
:No answer? So, you reverted for fun? Good job!--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
[[pl:Bretania]]
[[pt:Bretanha]]
Fourth atempt of geting a argument from your side... im talkin, but not you... --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
[[ru:Бретань]]
[[sk:Bretónsko (región)]]
----
[[sl:Bretanja]]
[[sv:Bretagne]]
Gorramit, Striver, not everyone can spend ten hours a day on Wikipedia. You have to wait several DAYS before assuming that someone is not going to reply to you. You have a tendency to post something and if you don't get an answer immediately, assume that no one cares and you can go ahead. NO YOU CAN'T. SLOW DOWN.
[[zh:布列塔尼]]
The article on Ramadan seems to be somewhat compressed and confused, but your edits did not help. Ask someone who can write to work on the article, don't just blow it to smithereens. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 05:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
:So, you said that the previous version was no good? Ok, we agree on that.
:But you have still not given any motivation for opposing my version. If you have a problem, then raise it so we can understand eachother, dont give sweeping condemnations.
:Wikipedia is not a byrocracy, and you are not a wiki byrocrat, if you have a genuine complaint, i invite you to air it. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 14:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
It is an undue imposition on readers to expect them to go to your "Islamic fasting" article to find out about Ramadan. When Muslims refer to Ramadan, they aren't refering to the month per se, they are referring to the whole cycle of fasting and festivities. So you get websites that say things like, "Ramadan is a special month and we should be very careful in observing Ramadan." That is, they conflate the month and the event. Yes, there's a logical difference, but the two things should be treated together. So you start with a section saying that "Ramadan is one of the months of the Islamic lunar calendar" and then you say, "All during Ramadan, Muslims fast during the day and feast at night ... etc. This special month-long fast is also called Ramadan". THEN you have a note saying that Ramadan is not the only occasion on which Muslims fast, just the main one ... and then you have the link to the Sawm article. That article can then have a more minute treatment of fasting, and a list of the special days and occasions upon which fasts are observed.
To get shapely articles, you are going to have to WRITE something. You can't just cut the Ramadan article up into chunks and spread it around. If you can't write -- which you can't, and you know it, Striver -- then you should leave the article alone and just put up your observations on the talk page, or ask another editor to help. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 15:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for a long answer! I appreciate it, since now i can respond to your objections.
:''It is an undue imposition on readers to expect them to go to your "Islamic fasting" article to find out about Ramadan.
No its not. Its one click away. And they will get educated when learning the distinction between the two things.
:''When Muslims refer to Ramadan, they aren't refering to the month per se, they are referring to the whole cycle of fasting and festivities.
Yes, as you said: "whole cycle of fasting '''and''' festivities". They refer to the month and what it contains. You are repeating a missunderstanding that i try to enlight.
:''So you get websites that say things like, "Ramadan is a special month and we should be very careful in observing Ramadan." That is, they conflate the month and the event.
No Zora, first of all, web sites are not "scholarly", to use your favorite word when i bring forth web sites.
Secondly, "Ramadan is a special month and we should be very careful in observing Ramadan." does say nothing more than one should "be very careful" when "observing (the month of) Ramadan" that includs "the whole cycle of fasting and festivities" and activities. There is nothing in your quote that implies that it referes to only the fasting bit of the month and not to other things like the Night of Destiniy.
Thrid, they do not conflate the month and '''the''' event. As you said yourself, there is no single event, there are multiple events.
Fourth: Now that we are quoting websites, lets see. I made a google search on "Ramadan" and got this page as #1: [http://www.holidays.net/ramadan/]. It starts by saying:
:''Ramadan is the ninth month of the Muslim calendar. It is during this month that Muslims observe the Fast of Ramadan.
You see it? The article clearly distincts between "Ramadan" and "the '''Fast of''' Ramadan" That is exaclty what i have done, i have created [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]], which is going to explain what the site i quoted referes to as "the Fast of Ramadan". That article is from a Muslim pov, so i added "'''Islamic''' fasting during Ramadan" to disambiguite between random fasting and Islamic fasting.
:''Yes, there's a logical difference, but the two things should be treated together.
[[Christmass]] is alway in [[december]], but you dont explain it on the december article. They should not be treated together. See [[december]] to understand how a month is supposed to be treated.
:''So you start with a section saying that "Ramadan is one of the months of the Islamic lunar calendar" and then you say, "All during Ramadan, Muslims fast during the day and feast at night ... etc. This special month-long fast is also called Ramadan".
Give me a source for that. That is false, as far as i know.
:''THEN you have a note saying that Ramadan is not the only occasion on which Muslims fast, just the main one ... and then you have the link to the Sawm article. That article can then have a more minute treatment of fasting, and a list of the special days and occasions upon which fasts are observed.
That would be like having the december article go "December is used to prepare for the "Christman holiday", This special preparation is aslo called December. Christians have other [[holidays]], but this one is the main holiday".
:''To get shapely articles, you are going to have to WRITE something. You can't just cut the Ramadan article up into chunks and spread it around. If you can't write -- which you can't, and you know it, Striver -- then you should leave the article alone and just put up your observations on the talk page, or ask another editor to help. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 15:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Again, see [[December]]. "spread it around" is exaclty what you do. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
: Yes, the article did need to be split up, but you clearly have overdone it Striver. If I knew nothing about Ramadan (this is hypothetical of course), I would think Ramadan was just an ordinary month in the Islamic calendar. Clearly, it is far from ordinary. Although, as you have, Ramadan and fasting are not one and the same, they are very closely related. Would you suggest Striver simplifying the [[Mardi Gras]] article into one that simply states it's a celebratory day that happens the day before Ash Wednesday? Would you suggest cutting down the [[United States of America]] article in one that simply states its ___location, but links to pages about it's history, politics, etc? Clearly, both those propositions would be absurd. The reader should not have to go to a seperate page to learn about Islamic fasting. Despite not being synonymous, most people come to the Ramadan page not to learn where it occurs in the year but to learn about the Islamic practices during the month.
: The article right now is inconsistent on provided that information. You have an section that explains the "chaining of the devils" concept. I'm sorry, but as important as that info may be (and it is), as an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should be providing information the readers are looking for. Again I'll reiterate; that's information about Islamic fasting during Ramadan. Christmas and December are not nearly as closely related as Ramadan and fasting. Mentioning Christmas on [[December 25]] would be appropriate (as it is already). However, it is not explained extensively on that page because it is highly unlikely someone looking to learn about Christmas will look at the December 25 article; they will instead search for Christmas, a name known to nearly every person on the planet regardless of whether he or she celebrates it. Sawm is not as familiar a name. And so, if a good number agree, the [[Islamic fasting]] article should be merged with the Ramadan article. The statement about the distinction between Ramadan and sawm should be left, but it would be a crime to talk about Ramadan without mentioning it's most prevalent feature - the fasting. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
==Answer==
You might be right in me cutting to much, but im glad you agree that there was to much there to begin with.
Lets examine your december 25 article. It, among lots of things, says:
:''The Christmas holiday is celebrated on this day. It is a national holiday in many countries including the United States, Canada, most European Nations, New Zealand and Australia. It celebrates the nativity of Jesus, the central figure of Christianity, as well as secular aspects which include the decoration of Christmas trees, and the exchanging of gifts. It is celebrated by many non-Christians (including atheists) that celebrate the holiday focusing only on secular aspects.
That is all it says about "The Christmas holiday". compare it to the actual article, it contains the following '''''sections'''''.
* 1 The origins of Christmas
* 2 The Christian story of Christmas
* 3 Dates of celebration
* 4 Customs and celebrations
o 4.1 Secular customs
+ 4.1.1 Santa Claus and other bringers of gifts
+ 4.1.2 Timing of gifts
+ 4.1.3 Christmas cards
+ 4.1.4 Decorations
+ 4.1.5 Social aspects and entertainment
o 4.2 Religious customs and celebrations
o 4.3 Regional customs and celebrations
* 5 Christmas in the arts and media
* 6 Economics of Christmas
* 7 Social impact of Christmas
* 8 Theories regarding the origin of the date of Christmas
* 9 See also
* 10 Notes
* 11 References
* 12 External links
There is no way of merging that into "december 25", and in the same way, Islamic Fasting of Ramdan is not supposed to be merged into "Ramadan". But giving a little more information, like saying that the entire month is coloured by its practises and the like is justified. Ill give it a shot, feel free to copyedit me. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Another thing: You said that the article is supposed to give the reader the information they are searching for. That is true, and it does that right now, by informing a link to the inforamation. A encyclopedia is also supposed to be accurate and educating. Having all information about the "Islamic Fasting of Ramadan" in the "Ramadan" article is nether accurate nor educating, in the contrary, it adds to the missconception about them being the same thing. No information is witheld, all its provided in its appropriate article.
A searcher might type "hitler" when searching information about the "Nazi party", that does not mean that the articles should be merged, only that the "Nazi party" article should be prominently linkt to in the "Hitler" article. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
: I never suggested merging the December 25 and Christmas article. Like I said before, it is highly unlikely someone will go to the [[December 25]] article when looking for [[Christmas]]. But is very likely someone looking for info about the fasting during Ramadan will look in the [[Ramadan article]]. There is a great amount of information on the Nazi party in the [[Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] article and a great amount of information about Hitler in the [[National Socialist German Workers Party|Nazi Party]] article. Again, I agree that Ramadan and sawm are different, but a comment denoting the difference should be sufficient.
:As a perfect example, take a look at the [[Big Ben]] article. Big Ben is not the name of the tower, but the name of the bell that resides in the tower. However, the Big Ben article discusses in great detail the clock tower (which it is not), but points out the difference between the bell and the tower, named St. Stephen's Tower. In fact, if you search for [[St. Stephen's Tower]], you won't find a separate article. Instead, you will be redirected to the [[Big Ben]] article. This does not fuel misconceptions as it is stated several times at the beginning that Big Ben is the bell. It still continues to discuss the tower as that is what most "Big Ben" searchers are interested in learning about.
:I'll see how your edits affect things and what everyone else thinks. I won't make the change on my own although it seems necessary to me. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 00:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::You do have a good point with the [[Big Ben]] article.
::I would also like to remind you that there are three different articles we are talking about, not two: [[Islamic fasting]], [[Islamic fasting of Ramadan]], and [[Ramadan]].
::I belive that merging the two latter is incorrect by it self but also that it dominates the article, giving to little atention to other aspects of the month. The Ramdan article should clerly give the impresion of representing a month, a regular one for Non-Muslims, and not include a Muslim practice in a regular month.
::You will not find any article about a date or period in the Christian [[Julian Calendar]] being dominated by a religious practice, and in the same way i argue that a period in the Islamic Hijri calendar should not be dominated by a religious practice. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
==Deleted section==
I was encouraged to stress the relious nature of the Month for Muslims, so i did so. But someone else removed that as a "unnecessary generalization". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramadan&diff=31120794&oldid=31118685]. I did my best of representing the Muslim view of the month in a prominent way, but it got deleted. I sugest someone else to represent that in a un-unnecessary un-generalizating way... --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
: I'm the one who removed your unnecessary generalization. I was most referring to the statement that all Muslims fast during Ramadan. Even if I were to presume you meant that all Muslims in good shape fast during Ramadan, we all know this to be false. Some Muslims do not fast. Some don't pray or pay their zakat or believe performing hajj is a priority. That is unfortunate, but it is the truth. Whether you consider those who violate one of the pillars of Islam Muslims is another story. But a more appropriate way of stating that that without generalizing is saying "observant Muslims." About the "religious nature" of the month, in good faith, I will replace that statement. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 22:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
::Thank you :) --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 23:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
== Laylat al-Qadr or Night of Destiny? ==
I believe Laylat al-Qadr should be the primary reference to the date as opposed to the Night of Destiny. Although this is an English version of Wikipedia, it would probably be more appropriate to refer to the holiday by its original Arabic name, much in the same way the [[Eid ul-Fitr]], [[Cinco de Mayo]], and [[Rosh Hashanah]] articles maintain their Arabic, Spanish, and Hebrew names, respectively. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 04:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
: Ditto. It's the usual academic practice to use the most common name, even if it's in a foreign language, and then add an English gloss. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 05:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
== Merge Completed ==
I know, Striver, you're not going to be very happy. However, you were the only objector (although there apparently have only been three votes). I take back the statement that the original Ramadan article (from 6-Dec) was too long after seeing how much long the merged article is. The only section that could possibly be cut down is the one that titled "Prohibitions during the fast". However, since the info that would be cut out would not be very substantial, I just left it in. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 03:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:joturner, there is not a single '''date''' article in the entire wikipedia that uses over half of its space to explain a religous practice. It is not correct to do so in this '''date''' article. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 03:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:Striver, I have tried to explain the rationale for making the change, but you just don't seem to understand. So let me be a little more assertive. When you changed the page from the 6-December version, here is what you said:
:''This article is in essence two articles in one, the month of Ramadan and its practices, and a article about [[Islamic fasting]]. This is not correct. In the same way as [[Laylat al-Qadr]] has its own article, so needs [[Islamic fasting]]/[[Sawm]] have its own article. A muslim is prescribed to fast during several other events such as breaking an oath or certain dates. Im going to fix that. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 20:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)''
::''So, done. I have not deleted any material, only re-organized and moved. Hope nobody objects. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 21:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)''
: You said what you were going to do and then 59 minutes later completed it. As Zora explained, you can't just suddenly make a major change like that without consulting other editors. You have gotten only two replies to that and both have been objections. On the other hand, I put up the merge proposal several days ago. Although I never got anyone in support of the merge, I never got anyone against it. And so, as a result, I went on the basis that there has only been one person in the history of this article that has complained about the layout of this article, you. You alone cannot decide that major change. As a result, I am going to revert the page back to my version, which is essentially the version it has been for a very long time and then post a message referencing the proposed split. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 17:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
: As an attachment to my last reply and in reply to your statement, you are wrong. There are articles where over half its space it devoted to explaining a practice. See [[Cinco de Mayo]]. See [[Fourth of July]]. For both of those, the entire article is devoted to the holiday, not to the calendar date. That is because they ''are'' the holidays. It's understandable that January 1 doesn't spend half the article talking about New Year's Day; no one says "Happy January 1". However people say "Happy Cinco de Mayo" and "Happy Fourth of July" as those are the nicknames for those holidays. Likewise, people say "Ramadan Mubarak" because Ramadan is the holiday, a month-long holiday (also know as a holy month). [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 18:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:You just proved me right. See:
:*[[May 5]] - [[Cinco de Mayo]]
:*[[July 4]] - [[Independence Day (United States)]] - [[Fourth of July]]
:*[[Ramadan]] - [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]]
:--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
:: I'm just confused as to how you can't possibly see the difference between Ramadan and just any other month or date. Ramadan ''is'' a holiday. Like I tried to explain with Cinco de Mayo and the Fourth of July, it is possible for a holiday to share a name with a calendar month or calendar date. Either way, I am happy you have not changed the article. We shall see who everyone agrees with. I just wish someone else would provide some input on the matter. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 03:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
:::I '''do''' understand that "it is possible for a holiday to share a name with a calendar month", you need to understand that that does '''not''' justifie merging the holiday into the calendar date!
Look:
#DATE: [[May 5]]
#Holiday:[[Cinco de Mayo]]
See? They are not merged, even while "Cinco de Mayo" means literaly "May 5", they are given different articles. You understand me now? '''Same''' name, '''different''' articles fot the "date" and "holiday".
Again:
#DATE: [[July 4]]
#Holiday:[[Fourth of July]]
'''Exactly the same name AND date''', but still '''different''' articles. See the patern?
Now, just follow the patern:
#DATE: [[Ramadan]]
#Holiday: [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]]
Or is that not logical? Peace! --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
'''Ramdan''' '''is not''' first and foremost a holiday, it existed long before it became "holy", further, Arabic Jews and Christians see nothing holy about it. The holy part of it deserves its own article. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
: "Islamic fasting during Ramadan" is not the name of a holiday; Ramadan is. However, I see your point. Instead, what I think needs to be done here is that Ramadan be split into [[Ramadan (month)]] and [[Ramadan (holiday)]]. It seems unnecessary to me, but doable. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 02:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. Brother, Muslims do not call the holiday for "Ramadan". See, make a google search, you ´will find this:
:''Ramadan '''(A) is the ninth month of the Muslim calendar'''. It is during this month that Muslims observe '''(B) the Fast of Ramadan'''. Lasting for the entire month
http://www.holidays.net/ramadan/
:''Ramadan is '''(A) the ninth month of the Islamic calendar.''' Islam uses a lunar calendar—that is...
:''For more than a billion Muslims around the world—including some 8 million in North America—Ramadan is a '''(B) "month of blessing" marked by prayer, fasting, and charity'''. This...
http://www.factmonster.com/spot/ramadan1.html
You see? Ther is a clear distinction between the month and the activity. Ill repeat the first link:
:''Ramadan is the ninth month of the Muslim calendar. It is during this month that '''Muslims observe the Fast of Ramadan'''.
See? '''F'''ast of Ramadan, with capital "F". Now, compare "Muslims observe the Fast of Ramadan" and "[[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]]". --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe [[Islamic fasting of Ramadan]]? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
:: I may have to concede defeat on this one. But the [[Big Ben]] precedent contradicts any reason to split this article. If we were to make a change, how about [[Fast of Ramadan]] as is mentioned in one of the articles you cited? [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 02:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
:::The Big Ben and the tower is not about a holiday and a date. I could live with [[Fast of Ramadan]], but i do like to disambig to "Islamic fasting", since "Fasting" can mean anything from christian to jewish to "loosing fat" fasting. But i guess that the "of Ramadan" part of "Fasting of Ramadan" is a disambig of some sort.
:::Its up to you, i claim that "Islamic Fasting" is more accurate than "Fasting", "Islamic Fasting" includes no water and no sex, while "Fasting" does not. But i can live with that.--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
:: I would like to add, however, that "Fast of Ramadan" is similar to "The Fireworks of Independence Day" and "The Dinner of Thanksgiving" (i.e. the practice followed by the holiday). Not good enough yet to split the article. I'd also like to add that two of those sources are the exact same and the third does not distinguish a holiday from the month itself; it simply describes it as a month of blessing. Compare that to Thanksgiving being a day of thanks and [[Patriot Day]] being a day of remembrance. So, I completely take back that last statement about me conceding defeat. I don't; those aren't compelling pieces of evidence saying that Ramadan is not a holiday. I'm still up for doing the [[Ramadan (month)]] and [[Ramadan (holiday)]] split as a comprimise. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 02:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
==New approach==
Forget what i wrote, i have thought some more... Thing is, you are accurate in saying that the name of the holiday month is "ramdan". If we keep that in mind, we get:
#DATE: [[July 4]]
#Holiday:[[Fourth of July]]
#DATE: [[Ramadan (month)]]
#Holiday:[[Ramadan (holiday)]]
Then in [[Ramadan (holiday)]], we need to describe the practices of [[Ramadan (holiday)]]. As we know, there are several. If im not correct, only '''one''' of them is included in the [[Five Pillars of Islam]], that being the practice of the [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]], that is not the same thing as [[Islamic Fasting]], since it is has some additional rules, like being obligatory and all the issues concerned with that.
So, if we are supposed to be strict, we shuold create:
#DATE: [[Ramadan (month)]]
#Holiday:[[Ramadan (holiday)]]
and then creat articles for the practices in it like:
*Islamic fasting during Ramadan
*Chaining of the devils
*Laylat al-Qadr
*Tarawih
*Eid ul-Fitr
Note that only the first one of them is included in the Five pillars, the rest are not mandatory. So, the holiday in it self is not mandatory, but a practice in the holiday is mandatory.
So, in [[Ramadan (month)]] we only say that it is a Muslim holiday, and link to [[Ramadan (holiday)]]. There we can link to all the other practices, and mention that of all the practises, its only "Islamic fasting during Ramadan" that is mandatory. We can mention that in both [[Ramadan (holiday)]] and [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]]. How does that sound? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
: Sounds good. The Islamic fasting during Ramadan article would be unnecessary since it would be in [[Ramadan (month)]]. [[Chaining of the devils during Ramadan]] does not need to be in a separate article since there isn't a whole lot that needs to be said about the subject. [[Laylat al-Qadr]], [[Tarawih]], and [[Eid ul-Fitr]] are already separate articles as they should be. If we were to make this change, I believe the article [[Ramadan]] should redirect to [[Ramadan (holiday)]] instead of [[Ramadan (month)]] since readers will most likely be looking for information about the holiday and because the holiday article will contain more information. Each of the two articles should contain a message at the top saying something along the lines of ''This article contains information about the holiday called Ramadan. For information about the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, see [[Ramadan (month)]]''. Or, as alternative, it could just go to a disambiguation page. Redirecting [[Ramadan]] to [[Ramadan (month)]] does not sound like a good idea because most articles on Wikipedia that link to [[Ramadan]] are linked to the Ramadan article because they are referencing the holiday.
: Another thing I'd like to mention is the potential problem with the word holiday. Holiday equals holy day. As Ramadan is not a day, but a month, it really should be "holy month". Of course using the terms ''holy month'' and just ''month'' or even ''holy month'' and ''calendar month'' would be unnecessarily confusion. Therefore, I'm just bringing this up; hopefully readers won't adopt that classic meaning of holiday and understand the distinction that is trying to be made.
: If that last paragraph didn't make much sense, just stick to the first paragraph. Some input from other editors would be desired as well as this is a very large decision to make. I hope everything works out in the end. Peace be upon you. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 03:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
And peace be with you, brother in Islam and humanity!
I think i agree with most. Let [[Ramadan]] be a disambig, that directs to [[Ramadan (holiday)]] and [[Ramadan (month)]]. The date relevant text will then be moved to the month article, while the events will in the holiday article. We can put in the first lines that we dont mean holy day, rather "holy period".
I would like to remind that the fasting holds a special distinction, being a part of the five pillars and the branches of religion, making it obligatory. ie, one could ignore the whole holiday issue and live in a cave, not bringing the mobile phone, but still do the [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]], while totaly ignoring the other events in [[Ramadan (holiday)]].
Then we also have the problem like the Islam template and the Five Pillars article. If we link them to [[Ramadan (holiday)]], it gives the impresion that whole holiday with everying in it is a part of the pillars, while its not. They should link to [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]] and not [[Ramadan (holiday)]].
Since it does not take any extra effort from WP and i am a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Inclusion|Inclusionist]] [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eventualism Eventualist], i support a [[Chaining of the devils during Ramadan]], for consistancy, but i have no problem with not having that. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 04:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
: The Islam and Five Pillars templates link to the [[sawm]] article. That won't be affected by all this. The information from the [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]] article could probably be split among the [[Ramadan (holiday)]] and [[sawm]] articles, with more emphasis towards putting that information in the [[sawm]] article. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the chaining of the devils page; it just seems like there isn't enough information on the current [[Ramadan]] page to constitute a new article. Maybe there will be in the future. [[User:Joturner|joturner]] 04:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
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The disambig page actually does seem to like a workable idea. I'm at least willing to try it. Instead of Ramadan (holiday) how about Ramadan (religious observances)? I strongly protest against [[Islamic fasting during Ramadan]]. That would go under religious observances. If there's a separate article on Islamic fasting, I think it should redirect to Sawm, since I believe the Islamic conception of a "fast" is somewhat different from the usual English meaning of fast. I'm against using a non-English term when there's no necessity for it, but in this case I think it expresses a necessary distinction. There should probably also be some duplication of information between Ramadan and sawm, since sawm is the major part of Ramadan. It should have its separate article ONLY because some Muslims fast at times other than Ramadan. I also think we should wait a bit before making major moves, since not everyone is a wikiholic who spends six hours a day online. Give other editors a chance to weigh in. In fact, INVITE them to weigh in.
As a general observation, we shouldn't bud out new articles until there's a clear need, like a section that's growing so much that it unbalances the article. Setting up a new article that's just a stub, and my never be more than a stub, is pointless. [[User:Zora|Zora]] 04:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
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