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[[Image:Côte de Granite Rose Brittany France.JPG|right|380px|thumb|Brittany has an expansive coastline]]
'''Quickpolls''' are polls among Wikipedia regulars on issues that need to be quickly resolved.
[[Image:Flag of Brittany.svg|160px|thumb|[[Flag of Brittany]] (Gwenn-ha-du)]]
[[Image:Bretagne_historique.png|250px|thumb|Historical province of Brittany]]
:''This article is about the historical kingdom, duchy and French province, as well as one of the Celtic nations. For the current French administrative ''région'' of Bretagne, see [[Bretagne]]. For other meanings, see [[Brittany (disambiguation)]].''
'''Brittany''' ([[Breton language|Breton]]: ''Breizh'' [[International Phonetic Alphabet|pronounced]] {{IPA|/bʁejs/}} ; [[French language|French]]: ''Bretagne'', [[International Phonetic Alphabet|pronounced]] {{IPAudio|fr-Bretagne.ogg|/bʁətaɲ/}}; [[Gallo language|Gallo]]: ''Bertaèyn'') is a former independent [[kingdom]] and [[duchy]], and a [[Provinces of France|province of France]]. Brittany is one of the six [[Celtic Nations]]. It is also, more generally, the name of the cultural area whose limits correspond to the old province and independent duchy.
==Policies==
The historical province of Brittany was split between two modern-day ''[[région]]s'' of [[France]]. 80% of Brittany has become the ''région'' of [[Bretagne]], while the remaining 20% of Brittany ([[Loire-Atlantique]] ''[[département]]'' with its ''[[préfecture]]'' [[Nantes]], one of the former capitals of the duchy of Brittany) has been grouped with other historical provinces ([[Anjou]], [[Maine (province of France)|Maine]], and so on) to create the ''région'' of [[Pays-de-la-Loire]] (that is "lands of the [[Loire River|Loire]]"). For the reasons behind the splitting-up of Brittany, and the current debate around a reunification, see the [[Bretagne]] article.
You are responsible for reading [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy]] before using this page. Quickpolls are '''not''' for arbitrary issues between users.
Brittany occupies a large [[peninsula]] in the northwest of France, lying between the [[English Channel]] to the north and the [[Bay of Biscay]] to the south. Its land area is 34,034 [[1 E10 m²|km²]] (13,137 sq. mi). The region is divided into five departments: to the west is [[Finistere]], [[Côtes-d'Armor]] lies to the North, [[Ille-et-Vilaine]] is in the north-east, [[Loire-Atlantique]] is to the south-east and [[Morbihan]] lies in the middle.
Concluded polls should be moved to [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive]] (which also includes an example poll).
In January [[2005]] the population of Brittany was estimated at 4,271,000 inhabitants. 72% of these live in the Bretagne ''région'', while 28% of these live in the Pays-de-la-Loire ''région''. At the [[1999]] census, the largest metropolitan areas were [[Nantes]] (711,120 inhabitants), [[Rennes]] (521,188 inhabitants), and [[Brest, France|Brest]] (303,484 inhabitants).
<small>''Current UTC Time: {{CURRENTTIME}}, {{CURRENTDAYNAME}}, {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}, {{CURRENTYEAR}}''</small>
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==History==
==[[User:172|172]] (12/9, 57%)==
:''Main articles: [[History of Brittany]] and [[Prehistory of Brittany]]
[[Image:Carnac megalith alignment 3.jpg|thumb|220px|The [[megalith|megalithic]] alignments at [[Carnac]] testify to the organisation of the prehistoric population of Brittany]]
[[Image:Château de Vitré Place St-Yves.JPG|thumb|220px|Fortress of [[Vitré, Ille-et-Vilaine|Vitré]], on the Brittany Marches]]
Reverted over a dozen times on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment]]. Revert war with [[User:VeryVerily]]. See below. Suggest banning both 24 hours to let them cool off. [[User:Jor| — Jor ]][[User talk:Jor|(Talk)]] 02:42, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Human habitation in the area now called Brittany goes back to the late [[Paleolithic]], or Epi-Palaeolithic, period. Megaliths erected in the 5th of the [[Veneti (Gaul)|Veneti]], [[Osismii]], [[Namneti]], [[Coriosolitithe]] area in the [[Iron Age]].
In [[56 BC]] the area was conquered by the [[Roman Republic|Romans]] under [[Julius Caesar]]. The Romans called the district ''[[Armorica]]'' (a [[Latin]]isation of a Celtic word meaning "coastal region"), within the larger province of ''[[Gallia Lugdunensis]]''. The modern ''[[département in France|département]]'' of [[Côtes-d'Armor]] has taken up the ancient name. After the collapse of the Roman empire, Britons, or [[Celts]] from [[Great Britain]], displaced by the Saxon colonisation of what became [[England]], settled in Brittany, and it is from this period its present names date. It is believed that the Breton language is the result of this immigration rather than a continuation of [[Gaulish]].
'''Action:''' ''awaiting admins deliberation'' (Note: User is in self-imposed exile from Wikipedia)
An excruciating [[Normans|Norman]] siege of [[Dinan]] (seen on the [[Bayeux Tapestry]]) influenced chief male ancestors of the late [[House of Stuart]], also an important maternal line to the present [[Duke of Norfolk]], to relocate to [[Great Britain]]. Bretons also accompanied the [[Norman conquest of England]], emigrating mostly to what became [[Richmondshire]] (in Yorkshire).
'''Note:''' According to [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy#Remedies|Quickpolls Policy]] an admin should not be subject to a quickpoll violation for a first violation. I propose that this poll be removed immediately. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 05:53, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
==Sights==
:It is not 172's first violation as an admin. See [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive|Archive]]. --[[User:Cantus|Cantus]] 05:59, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Brittany is famous for its [[megalith]]ic monuments, which are scattered over the [[peninsula]], the largest alignments are near [[Carnac]]. The purpose of these monuments is still unknown, and many local people are reluctant to entertain speculation on the subject. The words ''[[dolmen]]'' (from "daol" table and "maen" stone) and ''[[menhir]]'' (from "maen" stone and "hir" high) come from the Breton language, even though they are hardly used in Breton.
Brittany is also known for its [[calvary|calvaries]], elaborately carved sculptures of crucifixion scenes, to be found in churchyards of villages and small towns, especially in Western Brittany.
::172 was acquitted, thus has a clean record. This would be a first violation if a warning were to be issued in ''lieu'' of a Quickpoll. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]]
Significant urban centres include:
: Actually, that's for de-adminship, not for temp-bans. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 18:11, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [[Nantes]] / Naoned
===Support===
* [[Rennes]] / Roazhon
* [[Brest, France|Brest]] / Brest
* [[Lorient]] / an Oriant
* [[Quimper]] / Kemper
* [[Vannes]] / Gwened
* [[Redon, Ille-et-Vilaine|Redon]] / Redon
* [[Saint-Brieuc]] / Sant-Brieg
* [[Saint-Nazaire]] / Sant-Nazer
[[Image:Saintmalo.jpg|thumb|220px|The walled city of [[Saint-Malo]] was a former stronghold of corsaires]]
# [[User:Maximus Rex|Maximus Rex]] 02:51, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The walled city of [[Saint-Malo]] (Sant-Maloù), a popular tourist attraction, is also an important [[seaport|port]] linking Brittany with [[England]] and the [[Channel Islands]]. It also was the birthplace of the acclaimed author [[François-René de Chateaubriand|Chateaubriand]] and explorer [[Jacques Cartier]]. The town of [[Roscoff]] (Rosko) is served by [[ferry]] links with England and [[Ireland]].
# [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 02:52, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - I think they both need a nice, 24 hour rest.
# [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 03:01, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - Same here.
# [[User:Decumanus|Decumanus]] | [[User talk:Decumanus|Talk]] 03:11, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 03:18, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 04:43, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - 172 says that if he is blocked he will consider it permanent. That's incentive enough for me. Support.
# [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 05:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 06:01, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Cadr|Cadr]] - Mostly refuses to respect views of other wikipedians, constantly pushing his own POV as NPOV.
# [[User:Alex S|Αλεξ]] [[User talk:Alex S|Σ ]] 14:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Reversion en masse is only damaging to a page. Both VV and 172 should learn to discuss their different opinions on a talk page instead of wasting time and energy by revert wars.
# [[User:Merovingian|Merovingian]] ↕ [[User talk:Merovingian|Talk]] 14:57, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - Sorry dude(tte). 3RR.
# [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 18:34, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) Support (esp. given than VV was temp-banned). That many reverts is ridiculous. Leaving because Wikipedia won't let one revert as many times as one wants is even more ridiculous.
* [[User:JRR Trollkien|JRR ]][[User talk:JRR Trollkien|Trollkien]] [[User:JRR Trollkien/warning|(see warning)]] 20:28, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) Support. Sysops are not above policies. [''Not active for three months. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 20:58, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)'']
The island of [[Île d'Ouessant|Ushant]] (Breton: ''Enez Eusa'', French: ''Ouessant'') is the north-westernmost point of Brittany and France, and marks the entrance of the English Channel. Other islands off the coast of Brittany include:
===Oppose===
*[[Bréhat]] / enez Vriad
*[[Batz]] / enez Vaz
*[[Molène]] / Molenez
*[[Sein]] / enez Sun
*[[Glénan islands]] / inizi Glenan
*[[Groix]] / enez Groe
*[[Belle Île]] / ar Gerveur
*[[Houat]] / Houad
*[[Hoëdic]] / Edig
*[[Île-aux-Moines]] / Enizenac'h
*[[Île d'Arz]] / an Arzh
==Language==
#[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 02:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Oppose. User was not warned before Quickpoll was posted.
[[Image:Road signs bilingual Breton in Quimper.jpg|thumb|Bilingual road signs can be seen in traditional Breton-speaking areas]]
#*From the [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy]]: ''There is no need to warn repeat violators of the same policy again and again.'' [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive#VeryVerily_and_172|Both have been listed before for revert warring]]. [[User:Jor| — Jor ]][[User talk:Jor|(Talk)]] 02:53, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[Image:BlasonBRETAGNE.jpg|100px|thumb|Traditional coat of arms]]
#**If due process and attempts at de-escalation are skipped, Quickpolls will be nothing more than a lynch-mob under the democratic veil, becoming a tyranny of the majority. I propose you withdraw this Quickpoll, give 172 and VV due notice, and if there is any further reverting, then post a Quickpoll. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 03:09, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#***Considering that both of them have continued revert-warring (on the two articles mentioned below) '''after this quickpoll started''', I don't think that will be necessary. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 03:26, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#****That is not due process. This poll is about RfC, thus I will not support a ban on the grounds of their sins in the American Civil War or the savior of Chile. If either of these users are warned, then revert past #3, and a Quickpoll is posted, I will support a 24 hour ban. <strike>Justice</strike>''Due process'' is not efficient, but it is fair. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 03:43, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#*****Fair enough, I suppose. My point was that neither has given indication of any change in their behavior. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 04:06, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#*****You're advocating due process, not justice. Two different things, and they're not always compatible. [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 05:37, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:John Kenney|john]] 05:17, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Well, if RickK is voting yes solely on the basis that 172 has said he'll leave if this goes through, I'll vote no solely on the same basis. Sigh.
#*I am not RK. [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 05:29, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Wik|Wik]] 05:33, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Danny|Danny]] 11:02, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Looking at the content of the debate, rather than just the violation of 3 reverts (a silly rule, in and of itself, that fails to consider the stubbornness of certain trolls and vandals), I will obviously vote to oppose. By the way, Cantus, with whom 172 is also debating, was banned by me for repeat vandalism, including to my talk page. He was allowed back and look what happened. Another troll is succeeding in chasing away another good user.
#[[User:AndyL|AndyL]] 12:57, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Charles Matthews|Charles Matthews]] 13:15, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Looks to me like 172 was acting in good faith, misguidedly; and should just be given clearer guidelines, away from the prominence of this poll.
#[[User:Anthony DiPierro|anthony]] [[User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning|(see warning)]]
#[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 15:04, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - What John said. 172 is too valuable to lose.
#[[User:Dittaeva|Dittaeva]] 17:35, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[French language|French]], the only [[official language]] of the French Republic, is today spoken throughout Brittany. The two [[regional language]]s have no official status with regards to the state, although they are supported by the regional authorities within the strict constitutional limits: [[Breton language|Breton]], strongest in the west but to be seen all over Brittany, is a [[Celtic language]] most closely related to [[Cornish language|Cornish]] (Breton has in fact slightly more in common with Cornish than Welsh), and [[Gallo language|Gallo]], which is spoken in the east, is one of the [[Oïl languages]].
===Comments===
From the very beginning of its history and despite the end of the independence of Brittany, Breton remained the language of the entire population of western Brittany, if not bishops and French administrators or officers. French laws and economic pressure led people to abandon their language to the one of the ruler, but until the 1960s, Breton was spoken and understood by the majority of the western inhabitants. Since the beginning of the 20th century, it has been very efficiently fought by the French administration and educational system (''"It is forbidden to spit on the ground and to speak Breton"'') in the process of promoting [[French language|French]] as the sole language of the country.
172 and VerilyVerily have also been reverting each other repeatedly on [[Origins of the American Civil War]] and [[Talk:Augusto Pinochet]] [[User:Bkonrad|Bkonrad]] | [[User talk:Bkonrad|Talk]] 02:47, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Breton was traditionally spoken in the west (the "[[Breizh-Izel]]" or "[[Basse-Bretagne]]"), and Gallo in the east (the "pays Gallo" or "[[Haute-Bretagne]]"). The dividing line stretched from Plouha on the north coast to a point to the south-west of Vannes. French had, however, long been the main language of the towns. The Breton-speaking area formerly covered territory much further east than its current distribution.
:I've protected [[Origins of the American Civil War]] pending the outcome of both the VV and 172 quickpolls. --[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 03:37, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
In the Middle Ages, Gallo expanded into formerly Breton-speaking areas. Now restricted to a much reduced territory in the east of Brittany, Gallo finds itself under pressure from the dominant Francophone culture. It is also felt by some to be threatened by the Breton [[language revival]] which is gaining ground in territories that were never part of the main Breton-speaking area.
:[[Talk:Augusto Pinochet]] has also been reverted to a version by Ed Poor and also protected pending the outcome of the 172 and VV quickpolls. --[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 04:00, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
Privately funded ''Diwan'' ("Seed") schools, where classes are taught in Breton by the immersion method, play an important part in the revival of the Breton language. The issue of whether they should be funded by the State has long been, and remains, controversial. Some bilingual classes are also provided in ordinary schools.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests%20for%20comment&action=history 45 reverts in 40 minutes] with no attempts to discuss the dispute. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 02:50, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Despite the resistance of French administration, bilingual (Breton and French) road signs may be seen in some areas, especially in the traditional Breton-speaking area. Signage in Gallo is much rarer.
A tough one to call, and I had to think long and hard before voting - or, in this case, abstaining. In the end, I can't bring myself to vote to block 172 for this as although there were far too many reverts 172 ''was'' clearly correct in the first case. Having seen at first hand the extraordinary ability Wikipedians have to ignore the plight of a good contributor who is being swamped by a troll or POV pusher, I sympathise with 172. On the other hand, he shouldn't have responded to that provocation either. Which way to vote? For now, I'm abstaining. Maybe I'll change my mind and vote "no" though. [[User:Tannin|Tannin]] 09:31, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A large influx of English-speaking immigrants and [[second-home]] owners in some villages sometimes adds to linguistic diversity.
I'm neutral. I voted to support, because the number of reversions was objectionable. That behavior undermines Wikipedia's credibility, and we should mitigate that damage by reprimanding participants. Having said that, I'm tempted to side with 172. I think he's probably right. I can't muster sympathy, though. Someone who gets into trouble so often is probably looking for it. And I've never been impressed by people who throw down ultimatums, or who announce their impending departure from internet forums. If you're going to go, then go quietly, with some dignity. Otherwise, knock off the drama and get back to work. [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 13:20, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
===Response=Music==
{{Main|Music of Brittany}}
Some of the musicians for which Brittany is known are: the most famous, [[Alan Stivell]], but also [[Denez Prigent]], les frères Guichen, Carré Manchot, Ar Re Yaouank, Sonerien Du, Loened Fall, [[Yann Tiersen]], etc.
==Religion==
(to RickK) Damn straight. I'll even bestow on you the honor of deleting my user page. You can even be the one who shows my statement to a developer so that my admin privileges are suspended. With me gone no one will be able to stop the Marxist trolling of [[Origins of the American Civil War]] and the anti-American vandalism of [[FOX News]] (honestly, that's what I really was doing). So that's your burden now. BTW, I'm going out for a drink now to celebrate all the free time this'll give me, and being able to get paid for similar work. Too bad I wasn't banned a long time ago! [[User:172|172]] 05:20, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[Image:Bretagne Finistere StJeanTrolimon 11032.jpg|thumb|Sculpted "calvaries" can be found in many villages]]
The first Christian missionaries came to the region from [[Ireland]] and [[Great Britain]]. With more than 300 "[[saint]]s" (only a few recognized by the Catholic Church), the region is strongly [[Roman Catholic Church|Catholic]]. Since the nineteenth century at least, Brittany has been known as one of the most devoutly Catholic regions in France, in contrast to many other more secularised areas. The proportion of students attending Catholic private schools is the highest in France. As in other Celtic regions, the legacy of [[Celtic Christianity]] has left a rich tradition of local saints and monastic communities, often commemorated in place names beginning ''Lan'', ''Lam'', ''Plou'' or ''Lok''. The [[patron saint]] of Brittany is Santez Anna [[Saint Anne]], the Virgin's mother. But the most famous saint is Saint [[Ivo of Kermartin]] ('saint Yves' in French, 'sant Erwan' in Breton), a [[13th century|13th-century]] priest who devoted his life to the poor.
It should be easy enough to see that this guy's just being a pest. On Fox News I get automatically reverted for correcting grammatical errors. On the request for comments page, VV keeps removing the listing of his own user conduct dispute (first restored not by me but by another user). On the origins of the Civil War (I wrote that damn article series, while VV's has had nothing to do with it until now), he found another excuse to play games with me. On the Pinochet talk page, I don't even know what's going on. VV and Cantus have been making so many edits rewriting the entire talk page that I hardly know what's going on. And so it goes... [[User:172|172]] 03:17, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Once a year, believers go on a "pardon", the saint's [[feast day]] of the [[parish]]. It often begins with a procession followed by a mass in honour of the saint. There is always a pagan side, with some food and craft stalls. The three most famous pardons are:
If I wind up getting banned, consider it permanent. I know what belongs in an intro for an article on the origins of the Civil War, but I have no goddamn idea about how to deal with the juvenile antics of these stalkers and POV trolls, despite having been a user for 16 months. Lately content on WP has been determined by games that are hardly a better arbiter of scholarly and encyclopedic standards than roulette. To any developers, please suspend my admin privileges upon the ban. An admin can delete and/or blank my user pages. [[User:172|172]] 04:22, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* from Sainte-Anne d'Auray/Santez-Anna-Wened, where a poor farmer in the 17th century assured the saint give him the order to build a chapel in her honour.
* from Tréguier/Landreger, in honour of St Yves, the patron saint of the judges, advocates, and any profession involved in justice.
* from Locronan/Lokorn, in honour of St Ronan, with a ''troménie'' (a procession, 12 km-long) and numerous people in traditional costume,
In Brittany, there is a very old [[pilgrimage]] called the ''Tro Breizh'' (tour of Brittany), where the pilgrims walk around Brittany from the grave of one founder saint to another. The seven founder saints of Brittany are:
* St [[Pol Aurelian]], at Saint-Pol-de-Leon/Kastell-Paol,
Look at the page history. Just look at the difference between the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Quickpolls&dummy=1&diff=3224009&oldid=3223134 Revision as of 06:08, 17 Apr 2004 and Revision as of 06:17, 17 Apr 2004], after a series of seven "minor" edits by [[User:Cantus]] with the summaries "fmt" or "slight fmt."
* St [[Saint Tudwal|Tudual]] (''sant Tudwal''), at Tréguier/Landreger,
* St Brieuc, at Saint-Brieuc/S-Brieg,
* St Malo, at Saint-Malo/S-Maloù,
* St [[Samson of Dol]], at Dol,
* St Patern, at Vannes/Gwened
* St Corentin (''sant Kaourintin''), at Quimper/Kemper
Historically, the pilgrimage was made in one go (a total distance of around 600 km). Nowadays, however, pilgrims complete the circuit over the course of several years. In 2002, the Tro-Breizh included a special pilgrimage to [[Wales]], symbolically making the reverse journey of the Welshmen Sant Paol, Sant Brieg, and Sant Samzun. Whoever does not make the pilgrimage at least once in his lifetime will be condemned to make it after his death, advancing only by the length of his coffin each 7 year.
This was exactly the same bullshit that I had to deal with on [[Talk:Augusto Pinochet]] (e.g., take a look at this "minor" edit sweeping an ongoing poll under the rug [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Augusto_Pinochet&diff=3220701&oldid=3220521 here]), where his changes were even more sweeping. Aside from removing people's comments on these two pages, earlier today he was even deleting comments not only made by me but also [[User:Dissident]] (e.g., he kept on sweeping [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Cantus&diff=3219872&oldid=3219628 this under the rug].) on user talk pages.
Some old pagan traditions and customs from the old Celtic religion have also been preserved in Brittany. The most powerful folk figure is the [[Ankou]] or the "Reaper of Death" because even [[Jesus]] and the [[Mary, mother of Jesus|Virgin Mary]] obey him. He is a skeleton wrapped in a shroud with the Breton flat hat. He makes his journeys by night carrying an upturned scythe which he throws before him to reap his harvest. Sometimes he is on foot but mostly he travels in a cart, the Karrig an Ankou, drawn by two oxen and a lean horse. Two servants dressed in the same shroud and hat as the Ankou pile the dead into the cart, and to hear it creaking at night means you have little time left to live.
If people were willing to take a closer look at was going on before jumping all over me and voting to ban me, they'd see that my so-called "edit wars" started when addressing this bullshit from Cantus on the Pinochet page. At this point, VV saw that I wasn't in agreement with someone, so he assumed that I was wrong, because I'm always wrong, and had to be stopped at all cost. That's when the arbitrary reverts on most of the pages I'd been editing that day started. In effect, I had one user mangling talk pages, another user stalking me (which has been going on for weeks), and a bunch of users ready to jump in for a witch hunt. That's how I got on this Quickpolls page.
==Gastronomy==
I'm shocked that my fellow admins and colleagues on this site aren't standing up to this. This clearly demonstrates that working on this site isn't worthwhile. If I'm going to be reprimanded for acting in good faith to scrap ill-informed, POV, and tendentious b.s. mucking up in the intro in a featured article (origins of the Civil War); trying to prevent censorship of the Wikipedia:Requests for comments page; trying to prevent a user from recreating the content of a talk page; and most outrageous of all, trying to fix grammatical errors on [[Fox News]], I have no business on this site and must have a different conception of encyclopedic standards from almost everyone else. I guess WP doesn't want historians, academics, professionals, etc. to ruin the fun of users who get off on these childish antics. I now consider any of my former concerns regarding the quality of any articles on WP a lost cause. [[User:172|172]] 08:57, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Although some white [[wine]] is produced near the [[Loire River|Loire]], the traditional drinks of Brittany are:
* [[cider]] ([[Breton language|Breton]]: ''chistr'') - Brittany is the second largest cider-producing region in France;
* a sort of [[mead]] made from wild honey called ''[[chouchen]]'';
* an apple [[eau de vie]] called ''lambig''.
Some [[beer]]s are also now produced. Historically Brittany was a beer producing region, however, due to import of wine from other regions of France, beer drinking and production slowly came to an end in the early to mid 20th century. In the 1970s, due to a regional comeback, new beer breweries started to open. Around twenty breweries are now open.
:That diff looks pretty bad, true. A lot of diffs do. Looking at each individual diff in Cantus' last spate, however, I can see no substantive changes (except formatting). Annoying, yes, but not all that. - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]]|[[User talk:Hephaestos|§]] 09:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[Whisky]] is also being produced, and there is a small handful of distilleries that produce excellent whiskies. Another recent drink is the ''[[kir]] Breton'' ([[Creme de cassis|crème de cassis]] and cider) which may be served as an [[apéritif]].
Very thin, wide [[pancakes]] made from [[buckwheat]] flour are eaten with ham, eggs and other savoury fillings. They are usually called ''[[galette]]s'' (Breton ''galetes''), except in the western parts of Brittany where they are called ''[[crêpe]]s'' (Breton ''krampouezh''). Thin crêpes made from wheat flour are eaten for [[dessert]]. Other [[pastry|pastries]], such as ''[[kouign amann]]'' ("butter cake" in Breton) made from bread dough, butter and sugar, or ''[[far (breton)|far]]'', a sort of sweet [[Yorkshire pudding]], or ''[[clafoutis]]'' with prunes, are traditional.
::The Hanputk comments vanished. But in all fairness, the changes were far more sweeping and confusing on the Pinochet talk page. I didn't even know what was going on most of the time during the Pinochet edit war. I'm more bothered by the pattern I'm seeing than the extent of the changes on this particular page really. [[User:172|172]] 09:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Surrounded by the sea, Brittany offers a wide range of fresh sea food and fish, especially [[mussel]]s and [[oyster]]s. Among the sea food specialities is [[cotriade]].
:Honestly I don't see any major changes in content here. Things were shifted around by the looks of it. But whether you're right about him VV or not, what bothers me is that you chose to engage in a revert/edit war (which, 3 revert rule notwithstanding has been banned on Wikipedia for as long as I can remember) rather than just backing off and seeking another solution. After all, it should be pretty clear that the revert war wasn't going to change anything, and it's easy enough to bring back the right information once a problem user's been dealt with. [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 09:25, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
==Climate==
::I was a bit too unclear in my original posting. I should've stated right away that the changes to the Pinochet article were far more sweeping. The changes here weren't a big deal, but they reminded me of the kind of behavior that I had to deal with there. [[User:172|172]] 09:33, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since Brittany is on the west coast of France, it has a warm temperate climate. Rainfall occurs regularly - which has helped keep its countryside green and wooded - but sunny, cloudless days are also common.
In the summer months, Brittany can reach temperatures of about 30 degrees [[Celsius]], but is still comfortable compared to parts of France south of the [[Loire River]]. It generally has a moderate climate during both [http://www.discover-brittany.info/pics/climatesummer.gif summer] and [http://www.discover-brittany.info/pics/climatewinter.gif winter], and rain is not uncomfortably common or rare.
----
The most popular summer resorts are on the south coast ([[La Baule-Escoublac|La Baule]], [[Belle Île]], [[Gulf of Morbihan]]), although the wilder and more exposed north coast also attracts summer tourists.
==[[User:VeryVerily|VeryVerily]] (12/4, 75%)==
==Transport==
Reverted over a dozen times on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment]]. Revert war with [[User:172]]. See above. Suggest banning both 24 hours to let them cool off. [[User:Jor| — Jor ]][[User talk:Jor|(Talk)]] 02:42, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There are several airports in Brittany serving destinations in France and England. [[TGV]] train services link the région with cities such as [[Paris]], [[Lyon]], [[Marseille]], and [[Lille]] in France. In addition there are ferry services that take passengers, vehicles and freight to Ireland, England and the Channel Islands.
==Trivia about Brittany==
'''Action''': Banned VeryVerily for 24 hours. --[[user:pakaran|Pakaran]] 08:09, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* The Breton national anthem [[Bro Goz ma Zadoù|Bro Gozh ma Zadoù]] is set to the same tune as the [[Wales|Welsh]] and [[Cornwall|Cornish]] anthems.
* A number of [[Breton]] independence groups exist and they enjoy increasing, but minority, support in [[election]]s.
:The action taken should be reversed according to the Quickpoll policy. An 80% approval with 8 or more users was reached as of 06:02, 17 Apr 2004. As of 18:29, 17 Apr 2004, support dropped to 75%. Per rules, User:VeryVerily should be debanned. --[[User:Cantus|Cantus]] 20:10, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* Another famous Breton is the girl [[Bécassine]] (http://www.wnsstamps.ch/stamps/FR053.05/fr.html), a character from a strip cartoon.
::Actually, the threshold mentioned on [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy#Rules]] for reversal is 70%. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 21:19, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* Legendary road bicycle racer [[Bernard Hinault]] was born in the town of Yffiniac in Brittany.
===Support===
* [[Henry VII of England|King Henry VII]] spent quite some time living in Brittany ([[1471]] - [[1485]]).
#[[User:Maximus Rex|Maximus Rex]] 02:51, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 02:52, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - I think they both need a nice, 24 hour rest.
#[[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 03:02, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - Same here.
#[[User:Decumanus|Decumanus]] | [[User talk:Decumanus|Talk]] 03:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 03:51, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - To be fair I must support a ban of both 172 and VV.
#*It's your vote, of course, but one can be fair and yet note our roles are not symmetric. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 03:58, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#**172's misdeeds do not justify your misdeeds. After the tenth revert, having done nothing to resolve the situation, you both were equally guilty. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 04:02, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#***What would you have me do? Really, that's a serious question. If there's something I have not tried with 172, I'm curious to know what it is. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 04:08, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#****A good starter would be the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|Dispute resolution]] page. If you could not resolve the issue with 172 one-on-one, you should have asked other users for help in the matter. I don't think 172 has it in for you, and I would be more than happy to work with either of you in getting this behind everyone. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 04:21, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#*****I've tried all of the above. Communicating with 172 is impossible; when he doesn't revert my comments, he ignores them or misrepresents them. I repeatedly ask other users to get involved, to the point where I feel guilty about doing it again; I asked two users on this issue specifically in addition to the Talk and Req for Protection pages. I have brought these issues up on a User dispute page, an RfC page, and a quickpoll (I'm not the only one to quickpoll him, either); even on the latter I did not ask for a ban but merely censure, but his ideological allies refused even that. Many others have had similar complaints, but 172 feels bound to no rules, including those of honesty and community. (Sam Spade offered mediation repeatedly, for instance, and was simply called a "troll" and dismissed.) Though I appreciate your offer, until Wikipedia finds the tools to fight chronic rulebreakers like 172, brute force is what it will come down to in the end. It's sad, but it's all I have left. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 04:30, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#**Regardless of your motive I feel you both need a cool down period, which would be provided by a 24 hour ban from wikipedia. --[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 04:07, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
#***I should note I've voluntarily stopped editing RfC after Mirv's edit, which reinstated the inappropriate listing of me, but without 172's near-vandalistic revert and misplaced commentary. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 04:14, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 04:44, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Support just to be evenhanded.
#[[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 05:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 06:02, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Tannin|Tannin]] 09:36, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Just as many reverts as 172, but was in the wrong in the first place, so has no excuse. Trying to remove your own name from an RFC is not fair play.
#[[User:Danny|Danny]] 11:10, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Alex S|Αλεξ]] [[User talk:Alex S|Σ ]] 14:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Reversion en masse is only damaging to a page. Both VV and 172 should learn to discuss their different opinions on a talk page instead of wasting time and energy by revert wars.
#[[User:Merovingian|Merovingian]] ↕ [[User talk:Merovingian|Talk]] 14:58, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC) - Sorry dude(tte). 3RR.
*[[User:Hanpuk|Hanpuk]] 04:32, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - VeryVerily is always involved in edit wars, this should be a lesson to him. [''This user has not been active on Wikipedia for three months - see [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy|Quickpolls policy]]. [[User:Maximus Rex|Maximus Rex]] 05:18, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)'']
===Oppose=See also==
*[[Battle for Brest]]
*[[:br:|Wikipedia in Breton]]
*[[Bleimor (Breton Scouting organization)]]
*[[List of twin towns in the United Kingdom#Cornwall|Twinning/Jumelage between Breton and Cornish towns]]
==External links==
#[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 02:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Oppose. User was not warned before Quickpoll was posted.
{{Wikisource1911Enc|Brittany}}
#*From the [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls policy]]: ''There is no need to warn repeat violators of the same policy again and again.'' [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive#VeryVerily_and_172|Both have been listed before for revert warring]]. [[User:Jor| — Jor ]][[User talk:Jor|(Talk)]] 02:53, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [http://www.agencebretagnepresse.com/ Brittany Press Agency]
#**Not claiming ignorance or anything, but my listing was merely retaliatory (and juvenile) and did not report a violation. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 03:00, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [http://www.webbreton.com/ Guide and Reference about Brittany]
#**If due process and attempts at de-escalation are skipped, Quickpolls will be nothing more than a lynch-mob under the democratic veil, becoming a tyranny of the majority. I propose you withdraw this Quickpoll, give 172 and VV due notice, and if there is any further reverting, then post a Quickpoll. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 03:09, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [http://brittany.france-province.net Over Brittany in pictures]
#***Considering that both of them have continued revert-warring (on the two articles mentioned below) '''after this quickpoll started''', I don't think that will be necessary. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 03:26, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [http://www.breizh.net/identity/ Personelezh Breizh e saozneg - Breton identity in English]
#****That is not due process. This poll is about RfC, thus I will not support a ban on the grounds of their sins in the American Civil War or the savior of Chile. If either of these users are warned, then revert past #3, and a Quickpoll is posted, I will support a 24 hour ban. Justice is not efficient, but it is fair. --[[User:Hcheney|Hcheney]] 03:43, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
* [http://www.histoire-bretagne.com/ Istor Breizh- History of Brittany]
#[[User:Anthony DiPierro|anthony]] [[User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning|(see warning)]]
* [http://www.ofis-bzh.org Ofis ar brezhoneg - Office of the Breton Language]
#[[User:Cadr|Cadr]] - Oppose. Shouldn't have got into the silly revert war, but he was somewhat provoked, and had made a lot of good contributions to the discussion about [[Augusto Pinochet]] previously (this is the only page for which I have any real experience of his condunct).
* [http://www.antourtan.org/radio_fr.html Skingomz e Breizh - Brittany Radios]
#[[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 18:29, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Oppose if 172 is not also temp-banned. Fairness, please.
* [http://www.chez.com/buan1/history_of_brittany.htm Istor Breizh e saozneg - History of Brittany in English]
*[[User:172|172]] 06:01, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC) - Oppose. Regardless of what I think about VV's conduct, I think that Hcheney makes a good case. The Quickpolls page has been absused considerably lately. [''172, you are directly involved in the dispute, thus, per Quickpoll rules, you can't vote here. --[[User:Cantus|Cantus]] 20:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)'']
* [http://www.brittany-bretagne.com/pg/dates.htm Deizoù Istor Breizh e saozneg - Dates of Brittany's History in English]
*[http://brittany.angloinfo.com/ AngloINFO Bretagne] residents' information in English
*[http://france-for-visitors.com/brittany/index.html Visiting Brittany]
*[http://poormansfortune.com/ Breton music in the USA] - In English
*[http://www.houseinbrittany.com/ Information & Accommodation in Brittany] - In English
*Self catering accommodation in Brittany: [http://www.brittanygite.co.uk]
*[http://www.bretonsdumonde.org/ Bretoned ar bed - Bretons du Monde]
* [http://www4.culture.fr/patrimoines/patrimoine_architectural_et_mobilier/sribzh/main.xsp?execute=parsed_query&query=region:|Bretagne|&tri=region&tri=dpt&tri=com&tri=adrstri&tri=lieu&tri=edif&tri=tico {{fr}} Cultural Heritage]
{{Celtic nations}}
===Comments===
[[Category:Brittany|*]]
172 and VerilyVerily have also been reverting each other repeatedly on [[Origins of the American Civil War]] and [[Talk:Augusto Pinochet]] [[User:Bkonrad|Bkonrad]] | [[User talk:Bkonrad|Talk]] 02:47, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[af:Bretagne]]
:The latter is quite a curious case. He changed an ongoing poll to ask a completely different question, reverted all attempts to restore old language, and then, when Cantus in exasperation gave up and made the old question a ''second'' poll, began repeatedly deleting the second poll, along with the comments that had been added to it. In his edit summary, however, he claims that ''I'' am the one deleting a poll! See for yourself. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 03:02, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[ast:Bretaña]]
[[br:Breizh]]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests%20for%20comment&action=history 45 reverts in 40 minutes] with no attempts to discuss the dispute. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 02:50, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[cy:Llydaw]]
[[da:Bretagne]]
:I felt I said all I needed to in the summary box. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 03:04, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[de:Bretagne]]
[[et:Bretagne]]
::I'm sure 172 feels the same way. Both of you should have realized by, oh, the fifteenth revert, that you hadn't said enough. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 03:08, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[es:Bretaña]]
[[eo:Bretonio]]
:::I see where you're coming from, of course, but my long experience with 172 is that this is personal and naught to do with what's right or wrong. Recall he ''created'' the attack on me page, so is not going to be even-handed. Saying more to him would have made no difference; believe me, I've tried in many other forums, with the same result every time. [[The Big Lebowski|The Dude]] abides, 172 reverts. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 04:05, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[eu:Bretainia]]
[[fr:Bretagne]]
===Response===
[[ga:An Bhriotáin]]
[[gd:A' Bhreatainn Bheag]]
A word of explanation: I passed the three-revert limit because [[Wikipedia:Quickpolls/Archive#User:172_(11_votes_/_1_for_/_10_against_/_9.1%_in_favour)_2|last time I stayed my hand]] and instead asked for community support against 172's five-revert attack, I got none, and even got accused of "setting up" 172 by restoring the content he was deleting! 172's abuse of this page in creating a frivolous retaliatory poll did not even seem to bother anyone, and I didn't want to be taken for a fool again by, as I generally do, sticking to the guidelines of Wikipedia even against those who do not. 172 undid a typo fix in a link, restored my dead archive page (deleted by me with explanation after long overstay, cf. mav's "day and a half" comment; the only recent addition was a sockpuppet complaining that ''I had removed the link from RfC''!), and added his own comment in violation of RfC style. Of course, 172 knows how much he's gotten away with on Wikipedia, so he felt free to revert over and over, and I was clearly on my own fighting him and his bully tactics. -- [[User:VeryVerily|V]][[User talk:VeryVerily|V]] 02:58, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[he:ברטאן]]
[[hr:Bretanja]]
----
[[it:Bretagna]]
[[kw:Breten Vyghan]]
==[[User:Stevenj|Stevenj]] (7/13, 35%)==
[[la:Britannia minor]]
[[nl:Bretagne]]
Reverted at least 5 times on [[Luminiferous aether]] in combatting Reddi. If we ban one, I think we have to ban the other. [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 21:03, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[ja:ブルターニュ地域圏]]
[[no:Bretagne]]
===Support===
[[nrm:Brétangne]]
[[pl:Bretania]]
#He's been here long enough to be [[wikipedia:Requests for adminship|nominated for adminship]]; he should know better. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 21:08, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[[pt:Bretanha]]
#[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 21:09, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
[[ru:Бретань]]
#[[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 22:00, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
[[sk:Bretónsko (región)]]
#Support if, and only if, [[User:Reddi|Reddi]] is also banned. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 23:56, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
[[sl:Bretanja]]
#*He is, so this is a support. [[User:Silsor|silsor]]
[[sv:Bretagne]]
#[[User:Silsor|silsor]] 00:00, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
[[zh:布列塔尼]]
#Am I the only person who thinks that this issue should have been passed to the Mediation Committee long before it got to this step? A quick look at both the page & the history of [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation]] fails to show that either brought this issue there. Perhaps banning both will encourage people who should know better (& I consider both in this catagory) to seek mediation instead of slugging it out over reversions. (And helping to sharpen this sword, I am willing to die by it.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] 00:34, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# Sorry dude(tte). 3RR. --[[User:Merovingian|Merovingian]] ↕ [[User talk:Merovingian|Talk]] 14:59, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
===Oppose===
# He attempted a dialogue on the talk page, and his explination is quite clearcut and fits with Reddis' MO. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 21:25, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
# Was defending a solid scientific article against inclusion of extremely marginal material while attempting negotiation on the proper inclusion of it. [[User:Decumanus|Decumanus]] | [[User talk:Decumanus|Talk]] 21:36, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) Decumanus.
#:Oppose if [[User:Reddi|Reddi]] is not banned, as both should be treated equally. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 23:56, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#:*He is, so this is not an oppose. [[User:Silsor|silsor]]
#Oppose. Correcting an article should not be equated with inserting idiosyncratic "facts" into it. - [[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]] 00:06, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Oppose. Penalties are not the answer. Spanking people is bad practice in real life, and makes no sense at all for a web community. [[User:Jeeves|Jeeves]] 00:18, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Oppose. This sounds like a two-way content dispute. No one should be punished. [[User:172|172]] 00:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Oppose. I think we are getting carried away with the 3 revert rule at the expense of content. This is one such case. [[User:Danny|Danny]] 00:51, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# Tentatively oppose, as it appears Stevanj was not aware of the guideline, and has agreed to moderate his behaviour. [ [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] ]
#Oppose. [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 01:40, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# Oppose. Plenty of good editors pay little or no attention to policy discussions, and don't know about every new rule that comes along. Not knowing the revert rules probably means he hasn't been in enough disputes to have needed them yet. That sounds like a ''good'' thing to me... [[User:Isomorphic|Isomorphic]] 03:28, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Oppose. I will not allow someone to be mistreated by the corrupt system as I have. I, too, have dealt with Reddi's garbage in much the same way, Steven. And they, too, tried to make a quickpoll about it, with no concern over content, only their stupid rules and guidelines. Don't BS me with "wiki process" BS, the system is corrupt and does not work. - [[User:Lord Kenneth|Lord Kenneth]] 04:59, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 05:16, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Arvindn|Arvindn]] 10:05, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 12:01, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
===Comments===
Since I am the person at issue here, let me explain. In both cases, the original texts by Reddi were deeply flawed, conveying to an unfamiliar reader a misleading picture of the current scientific consensus of the issues in question. In the aether case, this was noticed by someone else, and in the Trouton-Noble case, it was noticed by me after I noticed that it looked suspicious and did a literature search on the subject. I explained on the Talk page why I revised the articles. Instead of pointing out any specific objection he has to the revised articles, however, Reddi simply reverts (or pastes in unedited slabs of the old text), at most claiming that his version has more "information" (without addressing the misleading objection) or that mine is "POV" (without saying specifically why). Since he reverts, or places an "NPOV dispute" message, without explaining what is POV, I saw no reason not to simply revert until he provides an explanation.
Unfortunately, I've dealt with him in the past and I doubt a coherent explanation from him is forthcoming; he persists in editing technical topics in which he clearly has no background or understanding, and it's difficult to have a rational discussion with him. I'd be perfectly happy to have a neutral, informed, third party review the changes in the topics at issue. (Note that, in the aether case, there are at least two other people on the talk page and in the history who support my version; none have spoken in support of Reddi's.)
Sorry about the trouble; I'll refrain from reverts now that this page is considering the topic. [[User:Stevenj|—Steven G. Johnson]] 21:24, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
:As I can't vote, I just want to note two things concerning this vote. One is that I did hesitate before posting here because of the reasons Raul and Steven note -- Steven did seem to be otherwise doing everything possible to handle things the right way. Two, though, is that [[Wikipedia:Revert]] allows no exceptions -- the policy is pretty clear that even discussing things and making good faith efforts to compromise doesn't exclude you. As the policy says, if it needs reverting that badly, someone else will take over. So while I recognize mitigating circumstances to some extent, I also believe the policy is clear -- no one dies if a bad version of an article is displayed for a bit. Rather than go to revert #4, find someone else who agrees, wait until the following day, or attempt sincere compromise. That's my two cents, and I congratulate Steven for being very calm about the whole thing -- if he'd listed me in a similar situation, I fear I might not be so even and rational, and I am glad of his example. [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 21:37, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
::That seems like a good policy. (Not generally frequenting the Village Pump, like Reddi I have to confess ignorance of the rule.) If you want to ban me for 24 hours on principle, I have no objections. [[User:Stevenj|—Steven G. Johnson]] 21:43, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
::I'm casting a split vote based on a principled objection to the revert policy in the case of scientific articles. -- [[User:Decumanus|Decumanus]] | [[User talk:Decumanus|Talk]] 21:47, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
----
==[[User:Reddi|Reddi]] (20/4, 83%)==
User has today reverted [[Luminiferous aether]] 8 times(!), reverted [[Trouton-Noble experiment]] 4 times, and has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Reddi&diff=3216238&oldid=3215952 declared] that he will "continue to do so" after being notified of the three-revert rule. In light of this I believe that a 24-hour ban is in order. —[[User:Mirv|No-One]][[User talk:Mirv| ''Jones'']] 21:01, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
:Implemented. 8 for, 1 against, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Quickpolls&oldid=3219510 88% favour]. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 23:58, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
:Unblocked by [[User:Decumanus]]. 9 for, 4 against, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Quickpolls&oldid=3220210 69% favour]. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 01:25, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
:: Actually: 8 for, 4 against (Angela's condition for support was not met. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 19:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
:Reblocked. 15 for, 3 against. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Quickpolls&oldid=3222550 83% favour]. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 05:09, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
::From the policy page, "Reversed remedies cannot be reinstated, even if the proportion subsequently rises again." [[User:Anthony DiPierro|anthony]] [[User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning|(see warning)]]
::Per anthony's comment, I reversed the re-blocking. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 18:48, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
:Angela's vote was conditional; it's obvious that Stevenj would not be banned, so her vote should count as a support, bringing the percentage over 70%. The ban should not have been reversed in the first place. [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 19:02, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
:: Angela's vote should count as oppose, as Angela voted for "oppose if Stevenj is not banned", and Stevenj was not banned at the time.
===Support===
#[[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 21:03, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) Reddi knows the rules, and for whatever reason has decided to ignore them.
#[[User:Flockmeal|Flockmeal]] 21:09, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 21:13, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] 21:22, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
#Objections to inclusion of marginal scientific material should be resolved before the material is included. Onus is on the includer in this case. [[User:Decumanus|Decumanus]] | [[User talk:Decumanus|Talk]] 21:36, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 21:59, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]]|[[User talk:Hephaestos|§]] 22:42, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) (mainly because of the declaration)
#[[User:Maximus Rex|Maximus Rex]] 23:42, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Support if, and only if, [[User:Stevenj|Stevenj]] is also banned. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 23:56, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#Tentatively support: Reddi was notified of the guideline in a prior quickpoll, and on his talk page by WMC. I think that's sufficient warning. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 01:14, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Support for above reason. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 01:39, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# Support. User has a history of engaging in edit wars. [[User:Exploding Boy|Exploding Boy]] 01:55, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
#Support. [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 04:47, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Support. User is unable to think coherently, critically, and without NPOV. Banning him is the only way to remove this infectious disease. - [[User:Lord Kenneth|Lord Kenneth]] 05:00, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Wik|Wik]] 05:01, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 05:14, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 07:53, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Arvindn|Arvindn]] 10:06, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 12:03, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
# Sorry dude(tte). 3RR. --[[User:Merovingian|Merovingian]] ↕ [[User talk:Merovingian|Talk]] 15:00, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)
===Oppose===
#Oppose if [[User:Stevenj|Stevenj]] is not banned, as both should be treated equally. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 23:56, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
#Oppose. See above. [[User:Jeeves|Jeeves]] 00:18, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#Agree with previous 2 oppose votes above. --[[User:Jiang|Jia]][[User talk:Jiang|'''ng''']] 01:04, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
#[[User:Anthony DiPierro|anthony]] [[User:Anthony_DiPierro/warning|(see warning)]]
===Comments===
* As the information ... both verifiable and reliable has been removed, I will continue to edit it ... I have tried to put in a "NPOV" warning and a "Accuracy" warning, both to no avail (when I put the tags in they were removed). I won't find it surprising if I get temp banned (especially since there is no acknowledgement of the information) ... I '''do not''' desire this, but that is for others to decide. The information should be included in both articles. Sincerely, [[User:Reddi|JDR]] [BTW, when did this "rule" come about? I musta missed it]
**JDR, the 3 revert rule has been policy for close to a month, I believe, and has been discussed on the mailing list, in numerous policy pages, and has generally been bandied about many places, including the Village pump, as I recall. Someone else will have to give you more specifics....all I can recall is that for a number of weeks it was hard to spend time at WP and ''not'' read/discuss about the policy. [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 21:17, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
*** Thanks for the info ... I have _not_ been paying attention (ie., reading) to the Village pump for some time [nor to various other "administrative" pages]. I am not a subscriber to the mailing list, either. So all this has occured without my knowledge. I woud have voted against it though, so I guesd that doesn't help me here (surprisingly agreeing with some ppl I don't usually agree with (and who voted against it)) ... [[User:Reddi|JDR]] [PS., I just browsed over to that page and looked at it]
* Interesting ... seems as if William M. Connolley and Stevenj are in cohoots together [see WMC's talk page] ... as to this "Rule" and the associated polls, it will make the Wikipedia suffer, IMO. ''Valid'' information (and ''verifiable'' information) that is not acknowledge (and repeatedly removed) does nothing for the credibility of Wikipedia (nor it's goal to encompass human knowledge). As it seem that the votes are for me not to edit these articles, I guess, regretfully, I'll edit other pages till this ban goes into effect. Mark it up to a strike against the quality of Wikipedia. Sincerely, [[User:Reddi|JDR]]
Reddi was aware of the 3 revert rule since he was listed on a quickpoll [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Quickpolls&oldid=2991629 before] for violating it. He was notified about it on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Reddi&dummy=1&diff=2988458&oldid=2988306 his talk]. [[User:Maximus Rex|Maximus Rex]] 01:01, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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