Talk:George W. Bush and List of free massively multiplayer online games: Difference between pages

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{{Mergeto|List of MMORPGs|date=September 2006}}
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This is a '''list of free Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games'''. See [[List of MMORPGs]].
== "War President" restored ==
 
<!-- Try to keep the games in alphabetical order! -->
I have restored a minor note which was in the article a few months ago. Since it refers to a description made by Bush of the nature of his own presidency, it seems highly relevant & noteworthy to me. I can't begin to image why it was removed & could find no mention of it on the talk page. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 05:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:I agree. It belongs in the article. [[User:Walton monarchist89|Walton monarchist89]] 12:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 
=3D=
It is taken rather out of context. The quote was, "I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind. Again, I wish it wasn't true, but it is true." This indicates a focus on war issues, not an affirmation of war. The "war president" mention in the article implies that Bush considers himself pro-war -- this creates a rather negative connotation which is not very consistent with the intended meaning in the interview. --[[User:The Other Other|The Other Other]] 06:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The following MMORPGs are either fully 3D or pseudo-3D in ALPHABETICAL ORDER.
:Agreed, this should be included but it needs to be elaborated on. [[User:KC0MLP|KC0MLP]] 04:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
==Free==
one sided bias liberal headliner with no real depth or meaning([[User:153.42.161.199|153.42.161.199]] 07:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
===Anarchy Online===
[[Image:Anarchy_Online.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Anarchy Online]]
Anarchy Online (AO) is a [[science fiction]] [[MMORPG]] released in June [[2001]] by [[Funcom]]. It differs from other popular MMORPGs as it makes use of a science fiction setting as opposed to the more common [[fantasy]] setting. The game is set in the years following June 29475, predominantly on the harsh desert world of Rubi-Ka and its extra-dimensional twin, the [[Shadowlands (Anarchy Online)|Shadowlands]]. The story of Anarchy Online revolves primarily around two factions, the megacorporation Omni-Tek and the rebel worker caste, the Clans. These two factions are fighting for control of the distant desert planet Rubi-Ka. In addition to these two factions there is a third faction of Neutrals, people who have decided to take no side in the conflict. This conflict has been waged on and off for centuries. In addition, there have been larger conflicts between Omni-Tek and other corporations over the control of Rubi-Ka. The game is free to play as long as none of the expansions (with the exception of Notum Wars) are added to the account. This excludes the players from some of the content in the game while still allowing full use of most features.
 
'''File Size:''' 872.6MB<br />
I think that this needs some explanation as to context -- its use in the article makes it seem like Bush is describing himself as a "hawk," when I think the fairest interpretation of Bush's actual quote regards his role as that of a President in warTIME. Maybe a citation to the full quote is enough, but there is certainly a risk of non-neutrality in including this at the very beginning of the article. {{unsigned|71.194.8.70|15:18, December 1, 2006}}
Wikipedia Page: [[Anarchy Online]]<br />
:There is "a citation to the full quote." I don't think it's POV where it's located in the article right now. --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 20:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://www.anarchy-online.com/
 
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== Iraq War section ==
===Last Chaos===
Last Chaos is a free download-based MMORPG. The goal of the game is to basically buy, sell, mine, forest and kill.-->
 
===Conquer Online===
The Iraq War section is listed under the President's first term, but much of the information it contains carries over into the sceond term. Any suggestions as to how it should be organized? [[User:Jpers36|Jpers36]] 16:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:ConquerOnlineSS.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Conquer Online]]
Conquer Online is an [[MMORPG]] that is free forever, made by TQ Digital. It shows the same style as many of TQ's games, such as Monster and Me, and Eudemons. People who have played this game should be able to use the [[User Interface]] very quickly.
 
The game is based in [[Mythological]] [[China]], and is very focused on PvP ([[player versus player]]). It has [[anime]]-style maps, which are walked on by [[3D computer graphics|3D]] characters.
I feel that it is certainly worth putting into its own section. Possibly at the end?
 
In Conquer, there are four classes: Trojan, Warrior, Taoist, Archer. For Taoist there are two types which you can select from after level 40: Water and Fire, Fire being the traditional black mage, and water being the traditional white mage.
Isn't there an update needed in the war section? The Baker (spelling?) comission recently declared the Iraq strategie as failure. That should proabably being mentioned, especially since Bush himself said that a shift is needed, basically admitting his failure. The war is kinda lost, just like vietnam was lost and now its official. We germans and many other peoples around the globe warned the 'mericans before and we said that the politics where based on both: Lies and illusions. I still remember that axis of weasels joking. So who's the weasel now? Whining around because they lost something like what? 3000+ soldiers. Didn't they now that in wars soldiers happen to die? 3000 aren't that many at all. They shouldn't whine that much, but rather finish the mess they started properly...
 
'''File Size:''' About 600MB + Patches<br />
== Economic Policy ==
Wikipedia Page: [[Conquer Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.conqueronline.com
 
===Entropia Universe===
The Economic Policy section is only three paragraphs? Would anyone mind filling it up with some more info? [[User:Fephisto|Fephisto]] 17:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Project_Entropia.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Entropia Universe]]
:Please don't. The three paragraphs in the article are only for the first term. If you want to add more information (which is certainly possible and likely desireable), please do so in a new or different article. This one is already very long. I also don't think that particular section needs more detail although it might be better served by different details. --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 17:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
''Entropia Universe'' (previously known as ''Project Entropia'') is a massive [[virtual universe]] with a [[virtual economy]], where ''Entropia Universe'' currency can be redeemed for US Dollars. There are no experience points or levels within the game, and it is not officially categorized as an [[MMORPG]]; however, it shares elements of regular MMORPGs, in that skills and special items figure prominently in game play.
 
One thing to realize about Entropia Universe, is that it's very difficult to enjoy the game without investing real money into the game. Since everything decays, you have to pay to play for doing anything in this game. (See also [[Entropia Universe#Cost_to_participate|Cost to Participate]])
== Will Ferrell and Will Forte, and maybe Will Sasso ==
I've always thought it was a severe deficiency of this article to not even mention Will Ferrell. As for ''Family Guy'', it is very important because it is one of the few animated shows to criticize Bush directly. ''The Simpsons'' does so in disappointingly oblique ways (e.g., "Commander Cuckoo-Bananas"). [[User:Cromulent Kwyjibo|Cromulent Kwyjibo]] 21:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:This material is not at all notable to George W. Bush's bio and it should in no way be included in the article. I am against it 100%. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>22:07, 13 November 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
The visual side of character creation is very highly detailed compared to many current online games. Before beginning the game, the player's [[Model (Video games)|character model]] can be manipulated in a variety of ways, similar to the [[avatar]]s in the [[virtual world]] of ''[[Second Life]]''. As well as the standard variable traits which can be changed, such as [[skin]] and [[eye]] color, other aspects can be altered to give the character more definition and distinction from other characters.
:Under absolutely no circumstances should any of this trivia be included in the article, and I will personally take it to arbitration if the revert war continues. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 22:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
::[[Weird threat of the year award]] contender. [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 17:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
:::I know they want us to keep our speeches short, so I just want to thank my mom, my dad, my husband (you are my guiding light! I love you baby!) and my computer, for providing me with this incredible award. Oh, is that the orchestra? Well, I guess they want me to cut this short''er''. Thank you, Wikipedia Academy! --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 
''Entropia Universe'' Presents a vast landscape to explore over two continents, Eudoria and Amethera. Both continents are located on the planet Calypso. There is also a space station in orbit over the planet, however, in order to get to it, players need to own a hangar which contains a working spaceship; this can be quite costly. Alternatively, players may pay for someone else to transport them. Just added is "Club Neverdie", which as of January 2006 costs between 25 and 30 PED to travel to.
A quick mention of criticism and popular culture critique wouldn't be a problem, but if we dwell on it and provide every example of criticism, it becomes non-notable and a case-in-point of [[WP:WEASEL|weasel words]] and [[WP:POV|POV]] pushing (if you want an example of how "including all information" can turn into a case of POV pushing, try [[Reforms under Islam (610-661)#Animals]]). [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|(talk)]][[Special:contributions/Patstuart|(contribs)]]</sup> 22:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
:I'd prefer we shorten the article as it is before including even more trivia. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 23:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' Approx 1GB<br />
Would it be acceptable to have an article titled [[Fictionalized portrayals of George W. Bush]], which would include both dramatic and comedic works, as well as anything else? We could then provide a link to that on this article, most likely not in the criticism section but somewhere else. [[User:Jpers36|Jpers36]] 17:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[Entropia Universe]]<br />
Official Webpage: [http://www.entropiauniverse.com/ http://www.entropiauniverse.com/]
 
===Flyff===
::I actually really like this idea. It lets the trivia party write what they like, and keeps this article clean and the anti-trivia group satisfied. Could one of the advocates of the trivia section please spearhead this? --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 22:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
<!-- Unsourced image removed: [[Image:Fff.jpg|right|thumb|Flyff]] -->
Flyff, which is short for 'Fly For Fun', is an [[MMORPG]] made by the [[Korea|Korean]] company Aeonsoft. Flyff separates itself from most MMORPGs by having a flying system, in which players can fly around using a hoverboard or broom as a way of transportation to other islands and towns. It also offers PVP (Player versus Player) and currently has 150 levels of possible character progression.
 
'''File Size:''' 478MB <br />
:::I agree. It's an excellent suggestion and the proposed article could turn out to be very interesting and informative. --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 23:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[Flyff]]<br />
:::Probably the best solution. (Personally, I feel that Wikipeida too often starts out with something reasonable like "George Bush is often portrayed in the media as ....." and ends up with a list of 250 items like "In St. Mary's Day Care of Winnetka Illinois 2005 Christmas pageant, the King Herod was wearing a Bush mask".[[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 17:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://flyff.gpotato.com/
 
===KAL-Online===
:How about [[Fictionalized portrayals of Woodrow Wilson]]? [[User:2nd Piston Honda|2nd Piston Honda]] 17:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:KAL-Online.jpg|thumb|250px|right|KAL-Online]]
KAL-Online is a [[fantasy]] [[MMORPG]] from [[Inixsoft]]. Originally from [[South Korea]], ''KAL-Online'' is currently available to [[English language|English]] speakers for free.
 
Unlike many other games in the fantasy/[[computer role-playing game|RPG]] [[genre]] which are heavily based on [[Europe]]an legend, ''KAL-Online'' presents itself as an "Oriental Fantasy" game. The game is based on the [[mythology|mythological]] war between the great king [[Ha-Nin]] and the [[demon]]ic troops of [[Ban-Go]].
::Hey, sounds good to me. I'd like to see how Wilson has been portrayed fictionally, both during his tenure as President and in the time since. [[Fictionalized portrayals of Abraham Lincoln]] would be very interesting as well. [[Fictionalized portrayals of Millard Fillmore]], on the other hand, may not receive much content. [[User:Jpers36|Jpers36]] 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
:::And Wikipedia's systematic anti-Fillmore bias rears its ugly head again... --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 23:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
::::[[Mallard Fillmore]] [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 18:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
::Sarcasm is really wasted effort at Wikipedia. [[User:Kasreyn|Kasreyn]] 23:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 287.2MB<br />
:::The false authority of Wikipedia makes us take ourselves too seriously. But hey, Wikipedia is a better time waster than most. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[KAL-Online]]<br />
::Oh crap. I was just about to turn in a paper on [[Fictionalized portrayals of Millard Fillmore]]. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|(talk)]][[Special:contributions/Patstuart|(contribs)]]</sup> 00:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://www.kalonline.com/
 
===Knight Online===
:::There should be the proposed "fictionalized portrayals of..." articles proposed for those modern era presidents and a few of the more famous ones from the past (e.g., Washington, Lincoln). But in every case, the main article should mention the most important of these. ''SNL'' and ''Family Guy'' are probably the most important in Bush's case. [[User:Cromulent Kwyjibo|Cromulent Kwyjibo]] 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Knight_Online.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Knight Online]]
'''Knight Online''' is a [[MMORPG]] developed by [http://www.mgame.com MGame Corporation] and [http://www.ns-labs.com Noah System]. Currently there are many different companies that host this game by geographic region. Some are Free to Play while others are Pay to Play.
 
A major aspect of Knight Online is a choice given to players as soon as they load up the game for the first time. They must choose to be a member of either the El Morad nation (humans) or the nation of Karus (orcs); a choice that cannot be undone later on unless they create a new account, go to another server, or use Knight Cash to switch their account's nation. This option is available pending a GM's approval.
:Who is going to inform the folks who fictionally portray George Bush, then, that we have decided that their work is in no way notable? [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 17:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 
Knight Online has four different "classes" for both nationalities (Warrior, Rogue, Magician, Priest), and each class has basic skills and additional 3 different skill-trees that skill points can be added to; skill points are obtained at each level. It is recommended that you only choose two of them so that you can obtain its best skills. Each class also has a master set of skills that can be learned from various quests and after reaching a high level.
::If you believe it is notable, please, create an article about the topic. It is not, however, notable to George W. Bush's life or career. This is a [[WP:BIO]] of George W. Bush and this content does not in any way better a reader's understand of Bush. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>17:46, 15 November 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
:::As I enlarged above, I don't think the kind of list of every portrayal of Bush ever that Wikipedia specializes in would be appropriate here, but well summarized NONPOV sentence or two might be useful, then i suppose a link to the inevitable list. [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 18:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 340MB<br />
:Since none of the pro-trivia people could be bothered, I started the page that was suggested. I pasted in (and fixed up) all the information that kept being reverted and re-reverted, but it's a very short article, so if anyone would like to keep adding info onto it, please do. Is this conflict resolved, then? --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 20:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[Knight Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.knightonlineworld.com/
 
===MU Online===
::If you don't call someone you can't claim they "could not be reached for comment." Some of us spend some of our waking hours offline. [[User:Anton Mravcek|Anton Mravcek]] 15:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
<!-- Unsourced image removed: [[Image:elfdavias.jpg|right|thumb|250px|MU Online]] -->
MU Online is a [[3D computer graphics|3D]] [[medieval]] [[fantasy]] [[Massively multiplayer online role-playing game|MMORPG]] utilising the [[OpenGL]] API, produced by the [[Korea|Korean]] company [[Webzen]].
The [[gameplay]] is very much like the game [[Diablo II]].
 
Mu Online tells that the [[continent]] of Mu, once ruled by great emperors, has fallen into wars between its many feudal lords. Antonidas, one of these lords, was deceived to bring a terrible [[demon]] onto the continent. All of the lords were killed, and without any successive ruler, the continent's hope now remains with adventurers, that they may join their forces, defeat the demon, and restore peace to the continent.
:::As I should be doing right now, I have a calc test in an hour. Thank you for reminding me. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
==Insertion of the [[Movement to impeach George W. Bush]]==
This was debated before and it does push a POV. '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] has stated "Since I've been quoted above, I figured I'd respond. This information is definitly not NPOV." Also it doesn't need to be inserted again because it's already covered in the category section of [[George_W._Bush]]. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 17:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
:To what "category section of [[George_W._Bush]]" are you referring? The current version of the article doesn't appear to have any such category.
:And exactly why is including another Wikipedia article in the "See also" section a problem? It's clearly directly related to this article. If the included article is so bad then it needs to be cleaned up or deleted. Otherwise, what's the problem? --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 17:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
::Go to category section of the page. Click "George W. Bush" or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:George_W._Bush] and it's right there. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 17:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Ah, got it. Right in front of my nose... --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 17:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Sorry, but I can't seem to find the word "impeach" once in the main article. --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 01:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::Hiding widely held criticism in a category section that many new users will not see is definitely a violation of npov. --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 01:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::Despite your argument, I've already stated that this is covered in the category section. Go to the bottom of the page, click "George W. Bush" and it'll take you right there. Also your insertion of the public perception is already repeated and does not need to be thus injecting POV because you can easily find the link at the bottom of the page. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 07:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::I am not disputing that the link exists in the category page. However, If I used your logic I would have to remove the entire "see also" section, because there all listed in the harder to find category page. I believe most people would prefer to have a simple list, rather than having to go to another category link, (it is my understanding that "Categories", "See also", and "external links", all have there own distinct usage, but thats not to say that what they cover won't overlap.) I do agree with you on removing the second public perceptions link (ironically that is what my intentions were, seems I missed the other link) --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 05:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Why is it important to you? His public criticism is already covered. If there was a real impeachment proceeding, then it would become relevant. Until then, it's just rumors that supposedly it will happen. In every administration, there was always an impeachment threat for every certain thing. But the problem is it's a hypothetical scenario and not factual. Most of the impeachment argument I've read are not based on factual findings but rather personal opinions and skewed interpretations of facts. Just like for example the argument the President will supposedly be prosecuting American Citizens under the [[Military Commissions Act of 2006]] when in fact the law doesn't assert such findings. However people did edit it to skew that viewpoint that supposedly you only need to be found "unlawful enemy combatant" and not an alien to be tried under the Commission. But I had to edit it to fix that viewpoint because whoever edited it before was not basing it on facts. This is an encyclopedia based on facts. Not opinions. It's just like there was some vandal recently that kept trying to insist that GWB's religion was supposedly [[Skull and Bones]] and not the [[United Methodist]]. There's this question I also got for you. How is the "movement to impeach" affecting GWB's job in anyway? As far as I've seen, it isn't nor should he care about it. Despite the fact Representative Conyers came out with his own report, it still was not a document and thus becomes irrelevant in any investigation. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 10:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Why is it important to you? His public criticism section has recently been removed. It is irrelevant whether or not an impeachment is in progress, only that the movement has a strong backing. I do agree that many things have instigated an inquiry into impeachment, just look at what happened to Bill Clinton, just over a inconsequential affair, yet Bush remains in office despite accusations of lying about the war, supporting torture, blah blah blah. I must point out that many people would like to see an impeachment, so in no way is the movement hypothetical, but if your referring to an actual in-progress impeachment, then yes it is hypothetical given by its inherent nature of only being in the planing and gathering support phase. --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::No it hasn't. It's just been made into a daughter article. It's not removed from the page whatsoever. All you have to do is click "Public perception and assessments". Your argument would hold water if it was the only article being made into a daughter article. But his "Early Life", "Professional Life", "Military Service", 1st, 2nd Term, etc are also made into daughter articles. The impeachment crowd probably are screaming for his impeachment but on what? Nothing factual and nothing that will succeed period. And the impeachment is hypothetical and most likely won't happen. It just won't happen and it isn't relevant in anyway whatsoever. When there's an impeachment hearing, let me know. You want to smear impeachment all over the main article because you obviously despise the man as evident in the [[Talk:Bumfights]]
::::::::::"It's so sad; I never though it could be possible to hate american culture more, but you must not underestimate the capacity of ignorant individuals to engage in appalling behaviors and beliefs. DEATH TO AMERICA!!! AMERICA MORIAR!!! MORTE A AMÉRICA!!! (but long live the american constitution and damn those who strive to dirty the ideals of the constitution e.g. bush and his loyal bushist worshipers) (yes I live in america, damn president bush, the ignorant ingrates have finally achieved majority voting status.) Every time I cross the street and look *both* ways I tell my self "never underestimate the capacity of an american dumb-ass to drive on the wrong side of the road.""
::::::::There is no exact definition of what "High crimes and misdemeanours" are, and thus is dependent entirely upon the senate vote, assuming it got through the house. CHAPTER 47A SUBCHAPTER I Sec. 948b (g) of the Military Commissions Act "No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights.", that seems to sound like the definition of a crime against humanity.--[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::When has the Geneva Convention granted rights to Prisoners of War that do not follow the laws of war? Which includes feigning death, shedding of uniform, fighting for a terrorist entity instead of a government, etc. Also assuming it got through the house? It was already passed into law by the House 250-170, Senate 65-34. Also please mention the law that makes this a crime against humanity other than that, it's just out of thin air you're making it up. I base myself on facts, not opinions. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 09:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::CHAPTER 47A SUBCHAPTER I Sec. 948d. (c) "A finding, whether before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense that a person is an unlawful enemy combatant is dispositive for purposes of jurisdiction for trial by military commission under this chapter." sounds like unlawful enemy combatant is more or less determined by a commission of the presidents choosing (grab a citizen off the street get together a bunch of loyal officers who will do your bidding and declare them as a competent tribunal, that solves that mystery, you may think that to be a stretch of reality, it's not when the pentagon has already theorized the legality of torture on behalf of the president. Quite frankly I don't care if the act applies to American citizens, the fact that it applies to anyone is enough for me. Factual arguments for impeachment: Military Commissions Act of 2006, Extraordinary rendition (I haven't looked this up, but supposedly this was also used by Clinton shame on him (depending of course on how he used it)), Treatment of detainees (contempt of command, especially in allowing Gen Ricardo Sanchez to get away with his memos calling for torture but I can't blame him since bush himself has done nearly the same.--[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::Do you realize who brought forth the [[Hamdan v. Rumsfeld]] Ruling that became the father of the MCA 2006? A [[Judge Advocate General's Corps|JAG]] Laywer, [[Charles Swift]]. Nothing in your statements will disprove this fact that a JAG lawyer fought on behalf of Hamdan that brought forth the MCA 2006. There are honorable servicemen that will advocate on behalf of POW's either enemies or allies of the United States. It doesn't matter what you say. Afterall, they're supposed to give these people a fair trial as evident in the MCA 2006. Also it never and will not apply to Americans at all despite your supposed statement that it will. Because the term '''Alien''' is a critical insertion to the law itself. Afterall, it would have never passed if it didn't have that important word. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 09:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Thank you for regarding me as a vandal(said with a very calm tone of sarcasm). Whether the movement to impeach g.w.bush is affecting him is not of grave importance to anyone except Bush and his allies, either way I don't care if he completely dismisses the movement or is having an anxiety attack over it, it doesn't matter. So if a report is not a document it can not be used in an investigation, I'm afraid I don't understand.--[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::A Partisan report does not make a factual document whatsoever which is evident by Conyer's history. Either it has to be a bipartisan report with no disagreements between both parties or it's nothing. Right now I see 3 reports that corroborates the President's findings which is the [[United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence|SSCI]]'s report, [[Butler Review]], [[Iraq Intelligence Commission|Robb-Silberman]] Review vs Conyer's personal report by his own doing. It's unacceptable period. To you, it may not be but I'm not going to care. I'm sorry but you come across as a person with an agenda to edit this biography page unlike me. I'll be watching your contributions that you make to this article. This is the last discussion I'm going to have with you. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 09:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::In noticing how our responses are increasing in length by an exponential factor I think it would be wise if we stuck to the main issue of "see also" link inclusion (although I did enjoy the massive conversational tangent). Now a question for you; If you conclude that the "movement to impeach g.w.bush" should not be included in the "see also" section on the (in my opinion false) basis of it not being factual, then would you not want to also remove the "fictional portrayals of bush" section given its inherit status of not being factual? --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::It's not my problem because I didn't insert it unlike your insertion of the Impeachment link. If you have a problem with it. Bring it up for vote. Don't talk to me. It was accepted by the community but since you have a problem. Bring it up for debate. So don't talk to me about this. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 09:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
:AuburnPilot was not referring to inclusion of this link as being a violation of npov, he was referring to my poorly written paragraph, and it's lack of citations. Also information (facts) can not have a point of view beyond that of its author and therefore the existence of the [Movement to impeach George W. Bush] article itself can not be a violation of npov, only the content contained within it. --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 22:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 
As with any MMORPG you select a character and fight monsters to gain experience. MU is populated by a large variety of monsters, from simple ones like [[goblin]]s to frightening ones such as the Elite [[Yeti]] or [[Gorgon]]. Each monster-type is unique, has different [[Spawning (computer gaming)|spawn point]]s, and drops different items. For more information regarding monster types and descriptions, refer to the [http://www.muonline.com/ Official Global Webpage].
== [[Texas National Guard]], versus [[Texas Air National Guard]] ==
On [[True Story of the Bridge on the River Kwai]], regarding the [[Empire of Japan|Japanese]] in the [[Second World War]], 1941, on [[History Channel]], I heard that some of the first Americans captured were in [[Dutch East Indies]] {&/or [[Malaya]] | [[Singapore]]}, for the [[Texas Guard]] {[[Tejas Guard]]?}. I suppose that the [[Air Guard]] would have been created a few years later.
 
'''File Size:''' 260MB<br />
The actual river is "[[Tamarkan]]".
Wikipedia Page: [[Mu Online]]<br />
Japanese for [number] five is "[[go]]".
Official Webpage: http://www.muonline.com/
The Japanese pronounced "[[speed-up]]" as "[[speedo]]".
 
===PlaneShift===
It is currently on, & from 1100 - 1300, Pacific, 1900 - 2100, [[zulu time]].
[[Image:Planeshift_screenshot_53.png|right|thumb|250px|Planeshift]]
PlaneShift is an MMORPG in which the player starts out as a peasant in search for fame and becomes a hero. The game is currently in pre-alpha stage at version 0.3.018 and available on Linux, OS X, Windows and FreeBSD. PlaneShift will introduce some unique features in the final version such as: many non-player-characters controlled by the server that will bring to life the persistent world even without players connected, a unique character creation system by constructing the history of the character, and many more features.
Updates are released regularly as the game development progresses.
 
'''File Size:''' 215 MB<br />
Thank You.
wikipedia Page: [[PlaneShift (computer game)|PlaneShift]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.planeshift.it/
 
===Rakion===
[[User:Hopiakuta|&#91;&#91; hopiakuta ]] &#124; &#91;&#91; &#91;&#91;%c2%a1]] &#91;&#91;%c2%bf]] &#91;&#91; %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 19:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Rakion is an MMORPG that is realtime and room based. It involves many different aspects from controlling different moves, and linking them into combo's or strategies. Trading and such are not really a main objective, although in-game currency can be used to buy items and for raising stats along with the stats that you level up with. No skills can be added to the current five different classes: mage, swordsman, blacksmith, archer, ninja. Avatar customization is not very noticeable, and alters only with weapons you buy. You can also purchase a card with USD that will add experience bonuses and make chaos mode possible in five kills instead of six. Chaos mode is unique and powers up a character to become stronger, obtain a new moveset, and change their overall appearance. Players must continue to kill other players to keep up their chaos bar in order to stay in this chaos mode.
 
Patches are frequently added, and are created by the makers of Gunbound. There are many different types of gameplay from Team Deathmatch, to Cage Match, and Golem Match in which you try to obtain a sword located in the center of the map and kill a golem located at the other team's base.
:''Speedo'' is just a transliteration of speed. I'm a little confused as to the direction of the comment, though. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 09:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Great research--[[User:Darrendeng|Darrendeng]] 09:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 233MB<br />
== unlock it ==
Wikipedia Page: [[Rakion]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://rakion.softnyx.net/
 
===Rubies of Eventide===
even if there is massive vandalism, unlock it ! [[72.36.230.178]]
[[Image:RubiesScreen40.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Rubies of Eventide]]
Rubies of Eventide (RoE or Rubies) is a medieval fantasy massively multiplayer online role-playing game published by Mnemosyne, LLC and set in the fictional land of Vormis. The game includes themes of war, magic and mythical creatures.
 
The player is given the option of customizing a character from one of 7 races: Human, Elf, Gnome, Dwarf, Orc, Ogre, and Leshy. Hair, skin tone, gender, and facial features are all customizable as well. RoE offers over 100 different classes from which to choose, including magic-using "casters", (Illusionists, Sorcerers, Bards, and Druids), to classes focused on melee combat (Warriors and Assassins), known as "tanks." Players can also choose a hybrid class with a combination of both caster and tank abilities.
:why?
::There is no reason to unlock it, this is the most vandalised article on Wikipedia...Most of the IP edits to this article is vandalism.__[[User:Seadog.M.S|<font face="Vivaldi" color="darkblue" size="4">Seadog</font>]] [[User talk:Seadog.M.S|<sup><span style="color:black;">'''♪'''</sup></span>]] 19:03, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:::It is the most vandalised article even when locked. --<font color="002bb8">[[User:Majorly|Majorly]]</font> (<font color="002bb8">[[User talk:Majorly|Talk]]</font>) 19:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
::::Agreed. This article should not be unlocked. Each and every time it has been unprotected, it is re-protected within hours. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>20:40, 24 November 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
::::::Keep it locked. Always.--[[User:Loodog|Loodog]] 21:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Maybe you should get a username and then you won't have to worry about semi-protected articles. [[User:Valley2city|Valley2city]] 23:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
::::::::On second thought, maybe you shouldn't. According to your '''[[Special:Contributions/72.36.230.178|user contributions]]''' and '''[[User talk:72.36.230.178|talk page]]''', you are a repeat offender of vandalism. [[User:Valley2city|Valley2city]] 23:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 
It has an unique combat mode named "asynchronous real-time turn-based hybrid combat". For players this means planning moves strategically with more attention to tactical rather than split-second decisions.
== NPOV??? ==
 
What is going on? Do we want criticism even included in this article? I have slowly seen negative material disappear from this article.
 
'''File Size:''' 384MB
Criticism is mentioned in the introduction "he has received increasingly heated criticism, even from former allies, on the Iraq War, [.........]", yet the entire part in the main body of this article on criticism was removed.
<br>Wikipedia Page: [[Rubies of Eventide]]</br>
Official Webpage: http://www.eventide.net/
 
===Shadowbane===
If my interpretations are correct then I must call for *'ALL'* criticism to be only referenced in the "see also" section. Even though to me that goes against npov. And in fact this is already discouraged in the [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#POV_forks|NPOV]] article, but arguments that criticism is so large that it needs a separate article, I can understand.
<!-- Image with unknown copyright status removed: [[Image:SBPIC.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Shadowbane]] -->
The game takes place in a dark [[fantasy world]] called Aerynth. [[Gameplay]] features many aspects typical of [[computer role-playing game]]s, such as [[experience point]]s, [[character class]]es, and [[Race (fantasy)|fantasy race]]s. Character creation is extremely detailed, allowing players to create literally thousands of different race/character combinations.
 
''Shadowbane'' is notable for emphasizing player-versus-player combat. The majority of MMORPGs released since ''[[Ultima Online]]'' restrict [[Player versus player|player killing]] to certain areas of the game or special dedicated [[Player versus player|PvP]] servers. The game specializes in siege warfare; players building cities, and trying to raze enemy player's cities.
If we are going to separate criticism to a separate fork article then so be it, but then we must move *all* criticism to this article (e.g. Controversial acts, Hurricane Katrina, ...). No-one can say that one stance of criticism is unworthy of inclusion in the main article. At this point it is very unorganized, some criticism in the main article some not in the main article. --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 01:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''Please Note:''' Downloading the 15 day trial grants access to the full game. As of May 15th, 2006, all accounts new or old are given full access to Shadowbane for free.
:The usual approach, when a particular subject becomes too long to fit within the main article, is to move the information to a daughter article, but to leave a summary in the main article. We can't just say "there's been criticism, see the daughter article". Major points of criticism must be discussed in the article. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]]<small>&nbsp;[[User_talk:JamesMLane|t]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/JamesMLane|c]]</small> 03:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 891.5MB<br />
::Then why are we allowing the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&diff=prev&oldid=89783163 summary] to be removed???? --[[User:ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE|ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE]] 05:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[Shadowbane]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.shadowbane.com/
 
===Silkroad Online===
Criticism articles are inherently POV forks and must be merged back in. I've tagged [[Criticism of George W. Bush]] for merging back into this article. [[User:TheProject|theProject]] 17:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Silkroad online jangan.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Silkroad Online]]
Silkroad is game created by a [[South Korean]] company called Joymax. Silkroad is primarily focused around the theme of trading. At level 20 the player is given a choice of three jobs: a merchant, a hunter or a thief. A merchant involves transporting goods between towns and guarding their merchandise against hostile forces. The goods purchased in one town can then be sold to another for many times their original worth. The higher the value of goods that the merchant transports, the harder and riskier their journey will become.
 
To make the merchants' life miserable, some players assume the role of a thief. The job of a thief is to kill merchants, take their stuff, and then sell it for their own profit. Thieves are usually team players, selectively attacking their targets as a party, or as a guild. A hunter is a job designed to get in the way between merchants and thieves. Their mission is to kill thieves, and thus are often hired by merchants as body guards during their trade runs. Successfully completing a job earns the character experience points. These points are used to increase the level of the job, and provide the character with job bonuses. Jobs are not fixed, and can be switched every ten minutes. However, whenever you receive thief points, you will lose trader and hunter points. This is also true the other way around.
Why were the criticisms removed? All of its content was verifiable, factual information. The quality of this article is no longer up to par with other high profile politicians. The value in Wikipedia is that it offers an opportunity to cover issues corporate media channels can't or won't cover.
 
Due to the recent popularity of the game, it is hard to log onto the most of the servers at some points during the day.
How dare anyone call this neutral....it makes me sick.--[[User:69.66.25.4|69.66.25.4]] 00:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 503MB<br />
:Well, if it makes you sick, how about registering and helping out? At the very least, how about pointing to some specifics. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>00:46, 2 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
Wikipedia Page: [[Silkroad Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: [http://www.silkroadonline.net/ http://www.silkroadonline.net/]
 
==Trivia,=The revisitedUniversal===
The Universal is a free, massively multiplayer online game in which you explore a virtual galaxy with worlds owned, run and populated by other players. Each world in the galaxy is different, with different themes and gameplay styles - from persistent economies to arcade-style blasters.
This section has been here long enough without anybody taking the initiative to work the contents into the article and it has already begun to collect repetitive/useless information. It's time to either move the information into the article or to the talk page per [[Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles]]. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>16:57, 27 November 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
'''File Size:''' 15.4MB<br />
== Majority vote, popular vote ==
Wikipedia Page: [[The Universal]]<br />
A possibly minor point...the introductory paragraph makes no mention of the contested 2000 election, which is in contrast to the "only candidate to win the majority vote in 16 years" bit regarding the 2004 election. If that is notable enough for the introduction, objectively shouldn't the "only candidate since 1888 who won despite losing the popular vote" also be noted there? (This may seem trivial, but my impression on an initial read of this article is that it lacks coherency as a whole, and this is just one example).
Official Webpage: http://www.theuniversal.net/
 
===Trickster Online===
[[User:Traumerei|Traumerei]] 14:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Trickster Online is an MMORPG designed by NTREEV. Like many other MMORPGs, many items are already included in the game, but a place called MyShop, which is under construction, is a place where a user can buy items using real money.
 
In Trickster, a user assumes the role of either a Bunny, Sheep, Fox, Cat, Buffalo, Dragon, Lion or Raccoon. Each character is also part of a "type." Bunnies and Buffalos are Power Types, Sheep and Dragons are Magic Types, Foxes and Lions are Sense types and Cats and Raccoons are Charm types. Each type also includes monsters, and has its own special attributes. Trickster uses two systems of leveling, an outer leveling similar to the leveling system provided by most games where the player becomes a little stronger, and the TM leveling system, which allows the player to place points in skills to practice them. Unlike other MMORPGs, Trickster allows the player to drill, or dig, for items such as coupons and jewels that are hidden beneath the ground. Trickster also requires players to purchase their own skills.
I agree. The two statements almost appear contradictory due to a lack of clarity. If he is the only candidate to win since 1888 after losing the popular vote in the 2000 election how can he also be the first in 16 years to win the majority vote in the 2004 election?
 
'''File Size''': 415 mb
This logic makes it sound like Presidents for the 16 years prior to 2004 had all lost the popular vote, which seems to not have occurred since 1888.
Wikipedia Page: [[Trickster Online]] <br />
Official Webpage: http://www.tricksteronline.com/
 
===Turf Battles===
Basically too confusing. They should be grouped together and clarified so as to to appear conflicting in nature.
See [[Turf battles]].
'''File Size''': About 750 mb including update.
 
===VATSIM and IVAO===
:He won the majority vote in the 2004 Election with 50.7% of the vote which qualifies as a majority vote. Bush however didn't have a majority vote in the 2000 Election. [[Bill Clinton]] won the vote with 49.2% of the vote in 1996 & 43% in 1992 which are not majority votes. [[George H. W. Bush]] won the 1988 election with a majority vote of 53.4% of the vote. Majority vote in politics means a number greater than 50%. [[User:ViriiK|ViriiK]] 19:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 
[[VATSIM]] and [[IVAO]] differ significantly from most other MMORPGs in that they are designed to rigorously simulate a specific aspect of the real world, namely, [[aviation]] and [[air traffic control]]. Players may interact with the network as either pilots or air traffic controllers (but not both), with pilots flying aircraft in realistic ways, and controllers providing traffic coordination exactly as real controllers provide for real air traffic in the real world.
::This should be made clear; however, I think the fact that he's the first successful candidate not to win the popular vote in 112 years is more significant than the fact that he's the first to win the majority vote in 16. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 17:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 
Membership in VATSIM and IVAO is free, as is the interfacing software used to connect to the network and the air traffic controller simulation software. However, players acting as pilots must interact with the network through add-ons to existing third-party simulation programs, such as [[Microsoft Flight Simulator]], which may or may not be free themselves.
== Vandalizing ==
 
Official Web sites: [http://www.vatsim.net VATSIM] and [http://www.ivao.aero IVAO]
You should change the picture, that one is ruined. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Sixest|Sixest]] ([[User talk:Sixest|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sixest|contribs]]) 17:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>
 
===Voyage Century===
:Which picture are you referring to? -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>17:09, 28 November 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
[[Image:Voyagecenturypic.jpg|thumb|right|A picture of a ship sailing on Voyage Century]]
Voyage Century is a free to play nautical MMORPG published by IGG, the distributors of Myth War Online. It is set in 16th century Earth and features accurate historical representations of several coastal cities. Players are given a choice between four career paths at the beginning of the game: explorer, merchant, craftsman, or warrior. This choice is vital to a character, since it greatly influences the playing style of the character for the rest of the game. Combat occurs both on land and on the sea, where players risk the threat of pirates when venturing further from the more populated areas.
 
'''Filesize:''' 1.13 GB
== Too long ==
I added the Very Long template to the article. This article IS getting really really long. [[User:Rivselis|Infested-jerk]] 19:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
: I agree. With complete respect to those who have dedicated a lot of time to this article, it needs some attention. I came here to get a general overview of George Bush and was greeted with an extremely indepth article on him. Now, I am not suggesting that a lot of detailed information on George Bush isn't good - because it is. However, it might be best to have this article summarise some of the more extensive and less high-profile/high-agenda/important stuff, with links to sub-articles (where such sub-topics can be explained more fully). That way people who want general information can get it and those who want detailed information (perhaps on a '''detailed subject''') can also get it. --''Signed by:'' [[User:Chazz88|Chazz]] - ([[User talk:Chazz88|responses]]). @ 17:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Voyage Century]]<br/>
== First Sentence ==
Official Webpage: http://www.voyagecenturyonline.com/
 
===Yulgang (Scions of Fate)===
... isn't actually a sentence. "George Walker Bush (born July 6, 1946), 43rd President of the United States, inaugurated on January 20, 2001 and re-elected as president in the 2004 election." Do we want some form of "be" verb in there? [[User:Ryanluck|Ryanluck]] 13:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
More information [[Yulgang|here]].
:Fixed that - I guess you're right, our articles generally start with a first sentence that is actually a full sentence, so this only probably should also -- [[User:Ferkelparade|Ferkelparade]] [[User_talk:Ferkelparade|&pi;]] 13:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 
===Corum Online===
:There are still some fragments and faulty parallelism in there, I'll fix it now. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 14:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Official webpage: http://corum.gpotato.com
== Rumsfeld's term ==
 
=2D=
In response to a reversion earlier today, I would like to point out that [[Donald Rumsfeld]] has confirmed his resignation, on the day after the 2006 elections. Therefore, I feel it is relevant to this article that we add a link to [[Robert Gates]] as he is currently the Secretary-elect.--'''''[[User:Ed|<font color="green" face="comic sans ms">E</font><font color="blue" face="comic sans ms">d</font>]]''''' <sup>[[User talk:Ed|<font color="maroon" face="comic sans ms">¿Cómo estás?</font>]]</sup> 20:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
==Free==
 
===Club Penguin===
:There are two separate issues here: 1) Defining Rumsfeld's term as ending in '06 & 2) adding Gates to the table. My problem is with issue #1. We should not end Rumsfeld's term for him. He is still the Sec Def. Issue #2, I couldn't care less about. If you want to add Gates, go for it. I don't see a problem with that. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>21:26, 1 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
[[Image:Club Penguin's Town.png|thumb|right|150px|The Club Penguin Town]]
:Allow me to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:George_W._Bush/Archive_51#Donald_Rumsfeld repeat] what I said a month or so ago:
Club Penguin is a children's MMORPG aiming at eight to fourteen year old children. Although the game is free to play, you have to pay to customize your character and home. Club Penguin runs though the adobe flash plugin, so isn't available to download. This game is also avaliable for play on http://www.miniclip.com
:Everything that I've read says that Rumsfeld is staying on until he is "[http://www.defenselink.mil/News/NewsArticle.aspx?id=2070 replaced...and the transition is completed.]" I don't know if that means he will be there until Gates is confirmed or that there is some other transition that is taking place (if he leaves before Gates is confirmed who's in charge? His Deputy? Gates as an "acting" SecDef?). Further, Rumsfeld is still [http://www.defenselink.mil/osd/topleaders.aspx listed on the DOD website] as the Secretary of Defense. --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 22:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' N/A<br />
== Worst President ==
Wikipedia Page: [[Club Penguin]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.clubpenguin.com
 
===Daimonin===
Enough information now is factually proving that George Bush has been the most incompetant US president in history. When will the Wikipedia article reflect this? Universal reactions to the damage he and his administration are doing to the rest of the world can no longer be considered merely "opinion", and information needs to be placed here so that visitors can be adequately affected. {{unsigned2|21:36, 1 December 2006|138.37.107.210}}
[[Image:Daimonin Stoneglow night indexedto256.png|right|thumb|200px|The village of Stoneglow at night (Linux)]]
Daimonin is a [[free software]] [[multiplayer]] online [[computer role-playing game]] that is based on the [[open source]] ''[[Crossfire (computer game)|Crossfire]]''.
 
Daimonin features an [[Isometric projection|isometric]] graphic system, and some of the same features as ''Crossfire''. Its server and client are licensed under the [[GNU General Public License]], and some of the artwork, music, sounds, and maps falls under a separate artistic license. The game is currently beta, so there is only one beta server (that has many players) running.
:All information on Wikipedia is required to comply with [[WP:V]]. We just can't any information we want to an article. It must be confirmed as accurate content.--'''''[[User:Ed|<font color="green" face="comic sans ms">E</font><font color="blue" face="comic sans ms">d</font>]]''''' <sup>[[User talk:Ed|<font color="maroon" face="comic sans ms">¿Cómo estás?</font>]]</sup> 21:54, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:Hell, you can't even try to add that "some people believe GWB to be the worst president in history" with appropriate references without having it reverted.[[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 22:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
: Unfortunately, this must be one of the most controversial articles on Wikipedia. -*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
::Yeah he's polarizing. So are most presidents (I guess if they're doing their job, anyway). As an outsider I can safely say that calling him the worst president ever, in an encylcopedic article, is a tad baised. Likewise, saying that "many" consider him the worst has major problems, such as verifiability. So you think he's the worst? Some people say he's the best. In what section do you place that? What about those who think he's fair to middling? Good but flawed? Bad but well-meaning? I could go on. I think the section on criticism, with re-directs to another article focussing on this is sufficient. Criticism is part of politics and you can't deny its place, but emotional attacks, or conversely, blind devotion, which are not based on facts, have no place here. [[User:Freshacconci|Freshacconci]] 22:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I thought Nixon was the worst President. Or at least I've heard. [[User:Maestro25|Maestro25]] 23:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
The client and server ([[Development stage|Beta 3]]) will run in [[Linux]] and [[Microsoft Windows]]. A preview for Beta 4 was released, and updated a few months after.
Most Americans would say Jimmy Carter was. Nixon was corrupt but he was effective.[[User:Decato|Decato]] 15:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Carter was more of a peacemaking international diplomat, which is why he was unable to deal with domestic issues in the 1970's. Personally, I think Warren G. Harding was the worst. I mean, he said himself that he didn't know why he was president. He lucked out in Teapot Dome b/c he died right when accusations were being made and Harding was pitied upon by others. '''[[User:Nishkid64|<span style="background:#009;color:#7FFF00">Nish</span><span style="background:cyan;color:#009">kid</span>]][[User talk:Nishkid64|<span style="background:orange;color:navy blue">64</span>]]''' 15:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Daimonin]]<br />
:This just in: "June 1, 2006 - Bush Tops List As U.S. Voters Name Worst President, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Reagan, Clinton Top List As Best In 61 Years" [http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=919&What=worst%20president&strArea=;&strTime=120] [[User:Gzuckier|Gzuckier]] 15:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://www.daimonin.net
::Ha. Well people have a way of looking at recent history with too much of a lens. [[Andrew Johnson]] and [[Richard Nixon]] were both pretty lousy, and [[Herbert Hoover]] equally unpopular. Anyway, I'm not arguing he wasn't the worst president, but, I'm willing to bet it would be overly POV to put in the article, "George W. Bush is the worst US president ever" :). -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 15:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
===Endless Online===
[[Image:EndlessOL1.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Endless Online]]
Endless Online is a free isometric 2D MMORPG in which players can either be a warrior, magician, rogue, priest or an archer. The game world is quite large and has several features including an inventory system, customizable avatar, resettable character statistics, several quests, secret passages, treasure chests, mazes, PvP, different kinds of monsters, rare items, marriage system, anti kill stealing, and an open ended style of gameplay. It was developed in C++ by VultR and is still continuously being improved upon and worked on.
 
'''File Size:''' 13MB<br />
Nixon has a number of sucesses including opening relations with China. Watergate was a scandal because of the coverup. Carter failed to take down Iran when the U.S had just cause and he left our economy in shambles.[[User:Decato|Decato]] 21:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[Endless Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.endless-online.com
 
===GoonZu Online===
:The topic of this discussion is "Should this article contain statements like 'Many consider Bush the worst President ever'", not "Is Bush the worst President ever?". Please see [[Wikipedia:Talk page]] and this article's talk header. This is not a place for political debate. <font color="green">[[User:Szyslak|szyslak]]</font> <small>([[User talk:Szyslak|t]], [[Special:Contributions/Szyslak|c]], <font color="green">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>)</small> 21:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:GoonZu.jpg|right|thumb|250px|GoonZu Online]]
A massively-multiplayer online RPG featuring top-down 2D graphics in a massive, anime-styled world. The game simulates a political-economic structure in its RPG play for maximum user freedom. User elect a representative among users by voting and rule the game, then interact with free market economic structure by of real-time trading, stocks, and a real estate. Strengthening community further is a 'Local Government System' and 'Resident Registration System’ in each town. This game also features a unique skill system in that players may gain skills by either reading books or by gaining skill experience. Most user-created items have a certain skill prerequisite, and weapons also require a certain level of skills to equip.
 
As of 9-2-2006, the version from download.com is outdated and requires many patches. However, the full version from the home page requires significantly less patching.
::Exactly, stick to the topic. No definitive answer could be given to the topic of "worst president." It's too subjective and politicized. The question all along was whether the article should refer to the belief by some that he is the worst president. Yes or no and why? (And Grant and Harding usually get the nod for worst). [[User:Freshacconci|Freshacconci]] 21:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::: Yes, we know it isn't. I was just responding to Decato's comments with my own. Anyway, getting back to the point, most of these polls show different presidents at the top and bottom of the presidental rankings. It's all subjective, and could depend from the type of people you may be asking and the person's knowledge of all 43 presidents. Bush is the most recent, and is not in great shape right now, so it's logical that he would top the list as worst president in some polls. '''[[User:Nishkid64|<span style="background:#009;color:#7FFF00">Nish</span><span style="background:cyan;color:#009">kid</span>]][[User talk:Nishkid64|<span style="background:orange;color:navy blue">64</span>]]''' 23:52, 6
December 2006 (UTC)
::George W. Bush is not the worst president ever. You may have many opinions but he is a good president, he hasn't done anything absolutely terrible yet and no one has any legitamate reason to hate him. Also, we should stick to the topic, Wikipedia is not about saying whose bad and whose not based on your opinions. You could put a section titled "criticism" but you shouldn't go around saying Bush sucks. Cheers!--[[User:The Relentless Rogue|The Relentless Rogue]] 02:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 594MB<br />
:There've been a few surveys of reputable historians that would probably be sufficiently authoritative. I don't think you could add the assertion "George W. Bush is the worst president in US history," which isn't even verifiable. You could certainly add something like, "A panel of US historians convened in 2005 ranked GWB among the worst four presidents in history with Harding, Andrew Johnson, and Pierce" (details I made up, but that's the rough sketch) or something like that. In fact, I could argue it belongs in the lead. Your own opinion isn't verifiable, but the historians' is both verifiable and notable (because they're historians, not random people off the streets). Then it's up to the reader to trust or not trust the historians' opinion. Regards, [[User:PhilipR|PhilipR]] 02:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Page: [[GoonZu Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://global.goonzu.com
 
===MapleStory===
== Foreign policy ==
MapleStory is a free side-scrolling online game developed by the Korean company Wizet. Different domains serve gamers in different regions. There are different servers for players in Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, Thailand, Southeast Asia, Europe and the rest of the world ( Global ).
Characters in MapleStory advance by gaining experience points (EXP), leveling up, and collecting various items and pieces of wieldable equipment. The players combat monsters, acquire play money called "Mesos" or "Meru" (depending on version) and various items, as well as completing quests.
 
MapleStory characters exist in different world "worlds", e.g., in MapleGlobal, there are "Scania", "Bera" - though these two are quite overcrowded - along with "Broa", "Windia", "Khaini", and recently "Bellocan". The Players are allowed to create up to three different characters in each world. Each world, similar in content between each other in the same version, is split into a maximum of twenty channels. Channels, which are held among others in servers, are divided mainly to prevent server lag, between which characters are allowed to switch. Characters and their items cannot be transferred between worlds[1], although there is limited functionality in transferring items between characters of the same world.
There are currently 2 sections in the article titled "Foreign policy", and I think it would be best if one of them would be changed. I noticed this after editing one section and then right after it took me to the other one (I thought I accidently deleted some info). --[[User:Ted87|Ted87]] 23:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 
File Size: 500MB+<br />
:I fear combining the two sections would cause more confusion than they do separately. Each section falls under a different term in office, outlining foreign policy for each of the two terms. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>00:53, 2 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
Wikipedia Page: [[MapleStory]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.nexon.net/
 
::I’m not suggesting combining the sections. I’m saying one of them should be changed to a slightly different name so we don’t have 2 sections with the same name. --[[User:Ted87|Ted87]] 21:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 
{{Portal|Free software}}
== Y'all's need a period ==
 
===Monster and Me===
In the section "Criticism and public perception," y'all's need a period after the sentence that begins "From time to time,." <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:66.65.175.65|66.65.175.65]] ([[User talk:66.65.175.65|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/66.65.175.65|contribs]]){{#if:10:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)|&#32;10:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
[[Image:Monsterandme.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Monster and Me]]
Monster and Me is a [[China|chinese]] [[fantasy]] themed [[MMORPG]] developed by [[TQ Digital Entertainment|TQ Digital]]. The game consists of catching monsters and training them. The game is currently [[Free-to-play|free to play]].
 
As of June 2006, there are no plans to include a paid version of the game.
== Statements that will date quickly: "is" president ==
 
I have made quite a lot of edits in Wikipedia to try to make it a work of reference rather than a list of ephemera, including in particular a lot of edits to the George W Bush article, most of which have been accepted by the Wikipedia community. The particular Guideline involved is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_statements_that_will_date_quickly, which says:
 
'''File Size:''' 597.3MB<br />
:Imagine someone is reading your words in six months, five, ten, fifty years. Will they still make sense?
Wikipedia Page: [[Monster and Me]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.monsterandme.com
 
===Puzzle Pirates===
:Using precise language that will not sound dated if the article is never edited again is considered the best practice.
[[Puzzle Pirates]] is a free MMORPG based in [[java (programming language)|java]]. With no clear objective set down, there are many ways to play this game. Currently there are 16 different puzzles to play ranging from poker to a bejewelled style game. Many of the puzzles link together (such as the carpentry puzzle, bilging puzzle and sailing puzzle) in order to sail a boat, or to produce goods. Featuring a player driven economy, this game also allows a more casual trader game to be played. <br />
Wikipedia page:[[Puzzle pirates]] <br />
Official Webpage: http://www.puzzlepirates.com
 
For some reason, some people seem to object to my changing "George W Bush is President..." to "George W Bush was inaugurated as President on <date>". I don't know why; the meaning of the two forms is the same today, but the latter form will still make sense in the future.
 
As there is a clear guideline, it should be followed. To say that other articles don't follow the guideline is irrelevant: they also are incorrect and need work. Wikipedia is infested with "recently", "currently", etc. This isn't a case of different opinions; if you disagree with the guideline, start a discussion to have it changed, don't just ignore it because you don't like it.
 
===Tibia===
I don't know why there are so many objections to changing "is president" to "was inaugurated as ..."; perhaps someone would enlighten me on why they think it is so important to use the transient form?
[[Image:UO0017.jpg|thumb|right|250px|Tibia]]
Tibia is one of the oldest, longest-running graphical online [[computer role-playing game]]s ([[MMORPG]]s). Players mostly spend their online time training their characters' skill levels, hunting a large population of [[monster]]s with numerous [[weapon]]s and [[magic (paranormal)|magical spells]], and scouring the vast continent for treasures and fortune. They interact with other players for conversation, to trade various objects, or to form parties to take on even stronger foes. Guilds are also important for many players.
 
On most of the game's servers, players are also allowed to attack and kill each other, although there is a reputation system in place to keep hostile actions under control. However, some servers do not allow such [[player versus player]] combat at all, while others place no restrictions on it, indeed practically encourage it.
For a much more extreme case of transient language, see the more trivial article on [[Tamsin Greig]] before and after my edits.
 
'''File Size:''' 10MB<br/>
I write this as I am being threatened with the 3 reverts rule for simply trying to bring this article within Wikipedia guidelines.
Wikipedia Page: [[Tibia (computer game)|Tibia]]<br/>
Official Webpage: http://www.tibia.com
 
==Free Trial==
[[User:Pol098|Pol098]] 19:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
===The Realm Online===
[[Image:The_Realm_Online_(computer_game)_screenshot.jpg|thumb|right|The Realm Online]]
'''7-day free trial'''<br />
The Realm Online, originally known as simply ''The Realm'', was one of the first [[MMORPG]]s (massively multiplayer online role-playing games) for public release (the public 'Beta' was out 5 months before Merdian 59's commercial release). It was launched on [[December 31]], [[1996]] for [[Microsoft Windows|Windows]] [[personal computer]]s and continues to operate [[as of 2006]]. It was designed in the tradition of [[graphical MUD]]s, before the popular usage of the terms "[[massively multiplayer]]" and "MMORPG".
 
It is considered by many to be the longest-running MMORPG in history, since Meridian 59 has not been running continuously since its release date. Others would argue that the realm is not a true MMORPG, and is more of a graphical MUD.
:I don't have any strong opinion about the wording, but this article gets so much attention that the wording "is president" would probably be changed within a day of the next one's inauguration. Guidelines are to be treated with the occassional exception. [[Special:Mostrevisions|The most revised article on wikipedia]] seems like a good spot to make an exception.--[[User:Kchase02|Kchase]] [[User_talk:Kchase02|T]] 19:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 
The realm has a very small, but very dedicated userbase. The crudeness of the graphics and relatively simple gameplay when compared to modern games, as well as a lack of widespread advertising, keeps the player community small and close-knit.
:It's such a minor edit I don't see what's the big deal. It does not alter the meaning of the intro, it's not incorrect, and it fits the guidelines + will never have to be edited for update. Keep it!!! Dubya "was inaugurated as" president (. . . whether we like it or not).--[[User:Evb-wiki|Evb-wiki]] 19:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 
'''File Size:''' 38.4MB<br />
: I agree with [[User:Evb-wiki|Evb-wiki]] and [[User:Pol098|Pol098]]. Firstly, we are in the process of trying to develop a stable version of the encyclopedia to be released on hard copy - this means that it won't need a tonne of editing so that is acceptable for release. Also, I don't think it is very mature to threaten someone with 3RR just for trying to follow rules - its ironic to condemn someone for not complying with [[Wikipedia:Policy|Wikipedia policy]] when you are doing the same also. That means that we have 3 for and 1 against complying with [[Wikipedia]] policy. Consensus yet? -*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 23:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Article: [[The Realm Online]]<br />
Official Webpage: http://www.realmserver.com/
 
=Browser Based=
::I hope ''being threatened with the 3RR'', is not referring to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pol098&diff=91830864&oldid=91826470 this] message I left on his/her talk page. In no way was it a threat and to characterize it in such a way is insulting. As I said in the very short message, I know first hand that the rule is enforced, and didn't want somebody who was clearly acting in good faith to be blocked for breaking it. It's time to stop taking things so personally if people believe that was a threat...Now, the point at hand: I personally don't have too much invested in which version remains. I reverted it because I believe the first version (not pols) was more clearly written, but I have no problem with consensus prevailing in favor of pol's version. Let's also remember that this Date info is based on a guideline, not policy. Guidelines are guidelines because there are some exceptions. -- '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>23:45, 3 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
=== Civ-Online ===
::I withdraw the wording that I was ''threatened'' with 3RR, and confirm that the message was "Pol, good intentions I'm sure, but please mind the WP:3RR. I know first hand that it is enforced."
[[Image:civ_screen2.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Civ-Online|Civ-Online™ in-game screenshot]]]]
 
''Civ-Online™ or Civilization Online'' is a free text-based role-playing game (often known as a MUD) produced by a small English team of three people. Players manage their medieval empires in various High Fantasy territories within the Civ realm. This is the first playable version of the game and is currently in Age I, as Beta. It is a very young project, aging at just several weeks, but has shown promising growth from the launch. It is currently free, however plays may purchase additional in-game items; such as money or turns.
::The guideline is in place because it makes good sense, and should only be breached after careful consideration and consultation. Following it constructs an encyclopedia whose wording does not go out of date, and careful wording ensures that there is no loss of meaning. I absolutely don't say that '''my''' wording should be preserved, but it should be replaced by improved wording which doesn't assume it's being read ''now''.
 
Players have a wide variety of variables by which to develop their empires. There are the two common divides within many games: The Economic or The Warfare doctrine. Players may choose to concentrate on growing economically, and hopefully becoming and economic super-power, or they may choose to concentrate on battling and hopefully reaching domination within a region. Each doctrine contributes towards Power - a measurement of each civilization and determiner of a player's achievement.
::I don't know if I've inadvertently started something where saying that Bush ""was inaugurated as" rather than "is" president is considered to be unduly flattering (or insulting?); my only concern is to make an encyclopedia which doesn't become outdated by its wording, but only by developing events. [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] 01:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
* Wikipedia page: [[Civ-Online]]
Quick comment: Kchase does raise a legitimate point, namely that the relevant page is indeed a guideline and not policy. It also contains, as its very first sentence,
* Official Website: http://www.civ-online.com
:''Unless you are writing on pages that are regularly refactored, such as Current events, you should avoid statements that will date quickly.''
I happen to agree with the idea behind Pol's revision because we know for a fact that the sentences in question will no longer be true within just over two years. However, calling on policy and saying that a particular person who prefers the other version is not following it is extremely far-fetched. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 02:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
=== The Crims ===
Looking through the opinions to date:
[[Image:Tclogo_640x480.jpg|thumb|300px|The Crims logo.]]
The Crims is a free browser based MMORPG. The game has been developed by two Swedish programmers. It is supported by 6 performant servers who ensure an optimal gameplay. The player's goal is to earn as much respect as possible within a given time period. The game takes place in CrimCity, which is described as "a metropolitan for gangsters, scumbags, and criminals". According to [http://www.thecrims.com The Crims website], there are over 4 million registered users world-wide and over 140,000 active players. The largest number of players comes from Brazil. Most top players are from Poland, Romania, Brazil and Greece. However, the game is available in 22 languages, with other languages in the process of translation. The game is divided into rounds, one round being about one to one-and-a-half months long. One day in the Crims lasts 6 hours, therefore 1 normal day equals 4 days in The Crims. In order to give a sense and a strategy to the gameplay, "tickets" have been introduced. In the first day of a new round, each player receives 100 "tickets" and after that 8 "tickets" per day in The Crims. Players use tickets to enter "raves" or "[[nightclubs]]". They do this in order to get drugs for their stamina to grow. The stamina is essential because most actions in the game require it in order to be performed.
 
Wikipedia Page: [[The Crims]]<br />
*I (pol098) clearly favour FOLLOWing the guideline
Official Webpage:http://www.thecrims.com
*Kchase T favours IGNOREing it
*Evb-wiki FOLLOW
*Chazz/contact FOLLOW
*AuburnPilott has no problem following the consensus (ABSTAIN?)
*Che Nuevara "agree with the idea behind Pol's revision", but criticises Pol's attitude. Is this FOLLOW?
 
===Kingdom of Loathing===
In discussion in other places regarding the guideline in general (not just this article), nobody considered that it should be revoked.
[[Image:Rightswordguy.gif|thumb|75px|right|The KoL logo]]
Kingdom of Loathing (KoL) is a humorous multiplayer browser game designed and operated by Asymmetric Publications (including creator Zack "Jick" Johnson and writer Josh "Mr. Skullhead" Nite). It is notable for its use of simple hand-drawn stick figure graphics and writing characterized by surreal humor, wit and parody.
 
KoL is a computer role-playing game in which players fight monsters for experience, for meat (which is the game's currency), and for items, through a turn-based system. Users get 40 "adventures" a day, which can be increased primarily by consuming food and booze. Players also interact with each other through player versus player competition, participate in the in-game economy by trading goods and services, and organize themselves in clans.
I suppose this discussion looks ridiculous here, as it is mainly about one sentence. However, there were a great many explicit and implied references to ''soon'', ''at present'', etc., and one that had already become out-of-date, with nobody noticing it. I made a considerable number of changes: see the batch of successive changes I made starting 09:28, 1 December 2006 Pol098
<br /><br /><br />
Official Webpage: http://www.kingdomofloathing.com/
<br />
WikiPage: [[Kingdom of Loathing]]
 
[[Image:LotGD.png|right|thumb|200px|''[[Legend of the Green Dragon]]''.]]
[[User:Pol098|Pol098]] 15:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
===Legend of the Green Dragon===
'''''Legend of the Green Dragon''''' (abbreviated '''''LoGD''''' or '''''LotGD''''') is a [[humor]]ous text-based multi-player [[Browser game|browser based game]]. It is a [[WWW]]-based implementation and homage to the classic [[Bulletin board system|BBS]] [[BBS door|door game]] ''[[Legend of the Red Dragon]]''. Originally written by Eric Stevens ("MightyE"), the copyright now contains both his and JT Traub's names. Version 1.0.0 was released in [[April 1]], [[2005]]. The final release from these maintainers, 1.0.6, was released in [[January 1]], [[2006]].
 
As at October [[2006]], MightyE's server at [http://www.lotgd.net/ lotgd.net] has approximately 4,600 players, and there are some 5,500 players at the largest German server, [http://www.lotgd.de/ lotgd.de]. There are some 300 servers listed in the LoGDNET list. [http://www.logd.com/logdnet.php?op=list]
::Pol, the other revisions are pertinent, but the main sentance is not, since Bush will be in office until the beginning of 2009. Only then should the tense be changed. Keep the other stuff, but the title sentance should stay in the presenty tense. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 16:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Lotgd]]<br />
::Yes, it's a little silly. Anyhoo, let me clarify: I'm not for following the guideline merely for the guideline's sake. It's a minor style issue. WP allows and encourages editing freely. Therefore, in this case, because the edit was factually correct, non-POV and otherwise a legitimate edit, the reversion was unwarranted. We must not prohibit someone's edits merely b/c of a difference in style. If you have additional edits, or want to reword the entire intro, . . . fine. But a reversion campaign in not proper. IMHO. --[[User:Evb-wiki|Evb-wiki]] 17:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://lotgd.net
 
===Londinivm===
:Pol: for the record, my objection wasn't to what you were saying, but rather to Chazz, who made the following statement:
Londinivm is a text and browser based online MMORPG that is free to play.
::''Also, I don't think it is very mature to threaten someone with 3RR just for trying to follow rules - its ironic to condemn someone for not complying with Wikipedia policy when you are doing the same also. That means that we have 3 for and 1 against complying with Wikipedia policy.''
:Sorry for the confusion.
:For the record, the phrasing of these present / past tense sentences doesn't really matter to me either way. However, whatever version is slated for hard copy should absolutely be written without the present tense. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 17:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Players develop skills relating to metal working, and in combat to develop their character. Weapons and armour can be made or bought to improve combat ability. Players can join tribes to work as a group to improve themselves and the tribe.
Well it appears that only one editor want the article to remain in present tense. Therefore, I think it safe to say that a consensus has been reached and the tense of the article can be changed. I would leave the intro line at the moment though, pending further discussion. -*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 18:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
: Just so you know Che, my opinion was based upon Pol's statements; you will note that I stopped short of accusing you of anything. I hope this avoids any confusion and apologise for any misunderstanding. ---*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 18:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
The game is usually played by logging in for short periods, to take simple actions. It is a long term undertaking, rather than an action game, but provides several interesting ways to develop your character.
::Hm. Interesting topic. I came by the page yesterday and changed it to say that Bush "is the current President", not realizing the debates and policy issues behind this.
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Londinivm]]<br />
::In my opinion, the use of "current", et al. is preferable, for the following reasons:
Official Webpage: http://www.londinivm.com
::# It provides a clearer, more attractive opening sentence.
::# [[WP:DATED]] refers to statements which will date ''quickly''. Bush will be President for two more years, so this is not a frivolous usage of "currently".
::# Wikipedia has had overwhelming success in keeping pages up-to-date and replacing dated words and phrases. I have a hard time recalling the last time I went to a page and found a dated statement. While I could see it being an issue for low-profile pages like music albums or video games, I don't think Wikipedians will have difficulty keeping the U.S. President's page updated. The issue Pol098 and others bring up is negligible in practice.
::# Note also that, if we followed WP:DATED as strictly as Pol098 suggests, we would have to go to all 130,000 biographies of living people, the vast majority of which introduce their subject with a statement of the form "X is Y", and find some way to tiptoe around the policy. I don't think many Wikipedians would agree with such an action.
 
===OGame===
::I realize that, due to the wording of WP:DATED, Pol098 is within his rights to completely disregard my interpretation of things here. I would argue that it's time for a new formal debate on the policy, though, as the majority of Wikipedia seems to be at odds with it. [[User:G Rose|G Rose]] 18:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
OGame is a free to play, time-based, competitive management-type, space-war themed online browser game with over two million gaming accounts worldwide. The gameplay revolves around building and maintaining a galactic empire; establishing bases, constructing various buildings, researching new technologies, massing defenses and creating a formidable war fleet. A central part of the gameplay revolves around time, as construction, research, mining resources, and attacks all require a set amount of time to accomplish. The game runs continuously and actively encourages players to attack each other, and space battles are massive in scale. Although the game is entirely text-based, rich visuals accompany all the buildings, ships, defenses, and technologies, and the planets in the galaxy are varied in appearance as well.
::: My advise is to change the tense of the article, save that for the intro sentence and/or paragraph. However, it can't be patchy - if you change the tense of one part you have to do likewise for basically the whole article (save the intro, in this case as discussed.. -*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 22:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Players can choose to be vicious raiders, peaceful "turtles" (a defense-based style), or traders. Alliances play a vital part in Ogame as well, which allow strong players to form a formidable union or protect weaker players. In certain galaxies, alliance members can even station fleets at each others planets to unify their fleet power against opposing forces.
::::G Rose said "I have a hard time recalling the last time I went to a page and found a dated statement."
 
The servers are called universes, which are further broken down into systems and individual planet locations. A ranking system based on fleet size, research, and points (1 point is awarded for each 1000 resources spent, and lost when 1000 resources are lost) allows users to judge the strength of their neighbors and compare progress.
::::There were many in the George W Bush article (I made a considerable number of changes: see the batch of successive changes I made starting 09:28, 1 December 2006 Pol098). Amongst '''many''' others: "formerly served as" (was); "The Bush administration has withdrawn US support..."; "has pursued"; "has requested less in annual budgets,"; "This budget represents"; "Bush has said that an international [[peacekeeping]] presence is critical in Darfur; he opposes referring..."; "Recent large-scale offensives such as [[Operation Mountain Thrust]] have met limited success". These things slip in and are not noticed, but there are a lot of them that eventually need correcting (at the cost of untold man-hours of wasted time), but didn't need to be there in the first place.
 
A subscriber version of Ogame is available, called "commander".
::::I won't continue to discuss (or argue, or edit) the first sentence; I think "is" is undesirable and unnecessary in this and the thousands of other similar articles. Even more pernicious are the multitude of unconscious references to an implied present sprinkled through this and many other articles. [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] 01:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::If a [[Asuma Sarutobi|fictional character's]] living status could be changed within two hours of publication, I doubt George Bush's article will take more than five minutes. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 03:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Ogame boasts multi-language support, and has different sites for different regions, although anyone
::::::I think it's fine as it is, in Jan 2009 when he leaves office I am sure there will almost be a contest to see who could change it the first. [[User:PPGMD|PPGMD]] 04:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
can join these.
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Ogame]]<br />
:::::::Keep in mind, Pol, that a large portion of Wikipedia's articles have to do with current events (Bush's article being one of these), and [[WP:DATED]] mentions current events as an exception to the policy - for obvious reasons.
Official Webpage: http://www.ogame.org (Note this is the English version of the site)
 
===Outwar===
:::::::Judging by your edits, you seem to think that anything current or ongoing should be referred to either in past tense or, in the case of article introductions, in sentence fragments. On one hand, this does give articles a more encyclopedic tone. On the other hand, many would argue that this makes articles less readable. I guess it comes down to how strictly one interprets the "encyclopedic tone" guideline. Unfortunately, I can't find anything conclusive about this in [[WP:STYLE]].
[[Outwar]] is a free browser based game. Players can choose from three races; a monster, popstar, or ganster. Outwar is a turn per hour based game, and players gain both Experience and Rage every turn. They can join crews, and help their crewmates (and soon to be friends) raid monsters, gods, and bosses. They can create their own profiles, insert custom player pics, and create a main page pic. It has three servers available; [http://fabar.outwar.com (Fabar Server)], [http://torax.outwar.com (Torax Server)], or the oldest and most advanced [http://sigil.outwar.com (Sigil Server)]
 
Official Webpage: http://www.outwar.com<br />
:::::::WP:DATED has a good deal of ambiguity to it as it is. One thing that really damages its credibility in my eyes is that the present and present perfect tense appears regularly even in [["Weird Al" Yankovic|featured articles like this]]. I think the policy's going to have to be rewritten at some point. [[User:G Rose|G Rose]] 06:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia site [[Outwar]]
 
===Pardus===
Keep in mind that any hard-copy version will have to avoid the use of the present tense, even if it is appropriate for an electronic version. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 06:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:pardus_screenshot.png|thumb|250px|right|Pardus]]
:I can talk from personal experience, that this is most definitely not a problem. Let me explain: on the day that [[Donald Rumfseld]] resigned, we had hundreds of editions to the article within a few hours literally (it was unreal). People must have added in a dozen times in a few hours that he "was" the acting secretary of defense (not "is"); it would have been dozens more, had I not put a ridiculous amount of tags all over the article saying <nowiki><!-- He's still secretary of defense, DARN IT!!!!!--></nowiki>. No, after bush is uninaugurated, there will be 8000000 people waiting to change the article. The inauguration is the most important day in years. (Oh yeah, as was already said, it's got 3 times the rate of changes per day as any article on WP).-[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 15:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Pardus is a free Massive Multiplayer Online Browser Game (MMOBG) with optional premium accounts available for additional features. Gameplay takes place on a graphical interface, completely free of advertisements in both free and premium accounts. Pardus runs in real-time with an "Action Points" system that allows players with limited time online to be just as competitive as players with unlimited time.
::My main concern is that this article certainly meets the importance criteria for inclusion in the release version. As such, it is important to have the main body of the article follow [[WP:DATE|Wikipedia's date policy]]. However, I am busy at present and will look over it at [[Christmas]]. -*- '''u:'''[[User:Chazz88|Chazz]]/[[User talk:Chazz88|contact]]/t: 20:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Set in a futuristic universe, Pardus is a real-time game in which a player roams through a multitude of galaxies in a spacecraft while trying to increase his wealth, fame and power. The game is completely open-ended, offering unlimited styles of gameplay. Pardus features a short tutorial which includes a 'help chat' where experienced players assist newer players with any questions, a vast and persistent universe, dozens of ships and equipment to choose from and work towards, player alliances, a sophisticated building tree and a dynamic economic system, an advanced skill system for a wide variety of high-end specializations, a multitude of NPCs, and much more.
== September 28 hearing ==
 
Developed in Austria by Bayer & Szell OEG, Pardus went "gold" on October 1st 2006, and has been receiving more and more attention from the gaming community as well as from various game and development related media. At the time of this writing, the growing Pardus community consists of over 10000 active players, many of which have been in the game since the beta version came out over two years ago.
Following the discussion I started on wording that assumes the date we are reading the article, here is an example of something that got left in even after the event, making the article on this very prominent subject out-of-date. In November I found an old sentence like "A hearing is scheduled for September 28", and changed it to "A hearing was scheduled for September 28; the outcome was ???.[86]"
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Pardus (game)]] <br />
I thought that the many vigilant eyes would pick up and fill in the ???. but it is still there. Search the article for "September 26" or "???" to find this. [[User:Pol098|Pol098]] 10:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://www.pardus.at
:It's still there. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 15:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
::Ack, it was given another week: [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/09/federal-judge-gives-domestic-spying.php]. Well, it looks like it was called unconstitutional, but under appeal [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100401731.html]. That's the best I can do. I'll try to change it, but I'm fairly sure it's outdated. I remember people on both sides of the aisle got really mad at her because she apparently used bad logic in outlawing it. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 15:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::OK, I found it, but I don't have time to add it back in: [http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-10-04T202048Z_01_N04262861_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-EAVESDROPPING.xml&src=rss&rpc=22]. The decision was stayed, meaning the action can continue until appeal is over; it will "likely" go to the Supreme Court (I think it's already gotten there, perhaps just not decided yet). [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 16:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
===RuneScape===
== Useful biographical article ==
[[RuneScape]] is a free MMORPG. There is no real object to the game, other than to operate in a three-dimensional online "world" by taking the person of a character, represented visually by a customizable avatar. Players may engage in a variety of activities including quests, developing skills, making new friends, trading, mutual missions, interacting through chat, etc. Available skills like smithing and fishing allows the production of items which can in turn be sold for gold pieces (GP) (gold pieces, gold points or coins) to be used to purchase a variety of items. The maximum level in a skill is 99, which takes a considerable amount of time to reach. The higher the level number, the better the player's character is in that particular skill. One's combat level works in conjunction with several combat skills, allowing a maximum combat level of 126.
 
During peak hours, it is common to see 200,000 players online simultaneously across the 137 international servers located in six countries. An amount as high as 228,000 players has even been reached in November, 2006<ref>[http://news.runescape.com/lang/en/aff/runescape/newsitem.ws?id=560 "5 new worlds in Stockholm, Sweden"] - ''RuneScape'' Technical News, access March 4, 2006.</ref>. Servers are limited to 2,000 simultaneous players, allowing a maximum of 274,000 players online at any one time. These servers (often called "worlds") are located in the [[United States]] (79), the [[United Kingdom]] (18), [[Canada]] (14), the [[Netherlands]] (6), [[Australia]] (6) and [[Sweden]] (8) [[Finland]] (6) <ref>[http://news.runescape.com/lang/en/aff/runescape/newsitem.ws?id=527 "6 new Australian servers online!"] - ''RuneScape'' Technical News, accessed March 4, 2006.</ref>, making it the most popular online Java based game in the world. ''RuneScape'' is usually updated each week on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday with the common addition of new quests and items. Other, even larger updates include additions of new locations, skills, mini-games, and a variety of other things. so theres some thing for every one to do.
I found a comprehensive, unbiased biography of George W. in a 1999 issue of Rolling Stone [http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/6482734/all_hat_no_cattle]. It's too early to have had a position on Bush's presidency, and yet has lots of details, especially on his oil company ventures and his investments. Is this useful to anybody who wants to incorporate it into the article here, or just add it as a link? [[User:Emiao|Emiao]] 02:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Many people have, on online forums, lambasted its constant reminders to players to "subscribe to a membership". Runescape's poor graphics have also often been criticized.
:I would not consider Rolling Stone a relliable source for analyzing a amjor leader. It really is just a flashier People magazine.[[User:Decato|Decato]] 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
Wikipedia Page: [[RuneScape]]<br />
::Paul Alexander is a notable author who has written biographies of james Dean, Sylvia Plath, J.D. Salinger, Andy Warhol, John McCain, John Kerry and others. That matters more than where the article appeared. [http://www.librarything.com/author/alexanderpaul] - [[User:Fairness And Accuracy For All|F.A.A.F.A.]] 22:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Official Webpage: http://www.runescape.com
::I would not dismiss popular media so quickly. Sometimes excellent journalism and significant works of literature appear in unexpected publications. For example, Shel Silverstein's work appeared in many issues of Playboy and Dr. Suess wrote articles for Vanity Fair and Life. --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 23:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
==Splitting=The byProphet's termsSong===
The Prophet's Song is a free Browser-based MMORPG that let's you customize your character and enter into a World that resembles Tolkien's. You are free to pick beetween Dark (Orcs, Dark Elves, Goblins, Ogres) and Light (Imps, Dwarves, Humans, Elves, Trolls) races. It's turn based and you count with a very big and diverse map that goes from Forests and Mountains to Lava Pits and Wastelands. <br />
 
Official Webpage: http://www.trollscantsing.eu
I suggest that this article be refactored such that the Presidency area is no longer split by term. Following the [[Ronald Reagan]] article, I think there should be a section about the 2000 and 2004 elections, followed by a section describing Bush's presidency as a whole. I may start work on that this evening. [[User:Jpers36|Jpers36]] 15:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
:Agreed. It's probably created this way for historical reasons (i.e., it was easier to write). But someone would have to take up major work to fix it. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup>
 
===Urban Dead===
== 'WMD Joke Controversy' ==
Urban Dead is an HTML/text-based massively multiplayer online role-playing game created by Kevan Davis. Set in a quarantined region of the fictional city of Malton (which may or may not have anything to do with the actual town of Malton), it deals with the immediate aftermath of a zombie outbreak. New players choose to start as a human survivor or a zombie, each with different abilities and limitations. Humans become zombies when they are killed, while most zombies can be "revived" with syringes, becoming human. There are no non-player characters in the game: all humans and zombies are controlled by players.
 
The game has become popular with casual gamers due to its "action point" mechanic (limiting the amount of actions a character can take in a single day of real time), straightforward gameplay, and the fact that it is free.
I am just starting to review the plethora of Bush articles. Could any of you who are familiar with them tell me if there is any mention of the 'WMD Joke Controversy' from the 2004 Radio and Television Correspondents' Association dinner?
 
Urban Dead went live in July 2005, and had over 600,000 registered players by July 2006, of which around 40,000 were active. The game is in open beta, with new features being added every few weeks.
This one:
 
Wikipedia Page: [[Urban Dead]] <br />
:"Family of Slain Soldier Calls Bush WMD Jokes "Disgraceful""
Official Webpage: http://www.urbandead.com/
 
[[Category:Massively multiplayer online role-playing games| List of free MMORPGs]]
:-snip-
 
:"But the Daily News is reporting that the families of soldiers killed in Iraq are not laughing."
 
:"George Medina who lost his son in Iraq said, "This is disgraceful. He doesn't think of all the families that are suffering. It's unbelievable, how this guy runs the country.""
 
Thanks! - [[User:Fairness And Accuracy For All|F.A.A.F.A.]] 22:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 
::That is all unneccessary information for this article, especially at this time, when it's too long. --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 18:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Agreed. Not because it wasn't notable, but because everything Bush does is notable, so we have to pick and choose. This is a biography. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 19:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== That is unnecessary ==
 
We all know Bush is not the best leader, but you don't need to crap on it. It's not a toilet. A lot of people knw it's not really him now either. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:SBKT|SBKT]] ([[User talk:SBKT|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SBKT|contribs]]) 15:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:Do you have any specific complaints? Can't really help out inspecific angry comments. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 16:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== Article length ==
 
This article is way too long - 106kB. Clearly moving some of the material into other articles is a task which will need to be done vary carefully - both to maintain an article with NPOV that represents the consensus view on how best to describe Bush, and to avoid being reverted as vandalism! Maybe moving some of the material about the policies of Bush's government; the sections on domestic, economic and foreign policy seem (to me) to be the best targets, and they already direct the reader to [[Foreign policy of the George W. Bush administration]], [[Domestic policy of the George W. Bush administration]]; maybe an [[Economic policy of the George W. Bush administration]] should be added to make ''Bush - the policies trilogy''? [[User:Inner Earth|Inner Earth]] 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
:: I removed a lot of the modern culture references to the newly created [[fictionalized portrayals of George W. Bush]], yet I hesitate to undertake another project like that at this time. Maybe you could kickstart to information transfer? --[[User:Iriseyes|Iriseyes]] 18:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== George W. Bush never does anything wrong ==
 
Just browsing through this article I never seem to read anything that implies GWB ever did anything bad. I know the goodness / badness of George W. is a touchy subject, and I have my own biases, but I really don't think this article is balanced the way it is.<br />
Case in point:
<blockquote>Bush returned to the oil industry, becoming a senior partner or chief executive officer of several ventures, such as Arbusto Energy ('arbusto' means bush in Spanish), Spectrum 7, and Harken Energy. These ventures suffered from the general decline of oil prices in the 1980s that had affected the industry and the regional economy, but he remained active through mergers, acquisitions and consolidations of his firms.</blockquote>
 
Which sounds to me like he never did anything wrong, that the businesses suffered soley due to circumstances beyond his control and he acted honorably throughout. Which might all be true, but I know there's no consensus about that, I don't think there's overwhelming evidence to support that POV, and there's certainly no evidence cited. On the other hand, the [[Harken Energy scandal]] isn't mentioned at all. If the reason for the failure of Dubya's oil ventures is suggested with no supporting evidence, shouldn't the evidence suggesting an accounting scandal at least be mentioned?
 
The same goes for his time at the Rangers, which was apparently all lollipops and rainbows.
 
As another example, everything written about his governership of Texas is prejudicial: phrases like "set higher standards for schools" sound like facts but in fact give the reader no information and are the kind of thing you hear in campaign ads. Meanwhile, the only bad move he (might have) made is to let himself be <blockquote>''criticized'' for ''allegedly'' using ''controversial'' methods to disparage Richards</blockquote> (my emphasis.) Why are three separate words needed in the same sentence to make the point that not everyone agrees that his methods were bad?
 
I'd keep looking for more examples, but my biases are giving me a headache.
 
Someone went through and deleted everything negative and rephrased everything with euphamistic language straight out of the whitehouse playbook... but it's being slowly fixed now to be more balanced... and not the kind of balance Fox News advertises.
 
--[[User:66.74.223.57|66.74.223.57]] 07:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 
:Sounds more like critical thinking than bias to me. You bring up some good points. I especially like the "criticized / allegedly / controversial" quote - that cracked me up :). I know editing the article on Bush is a daunting task, but I think you have some valuable input. Thanks for posting! [[User:G Rose|G Rose]] 10:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 
::Create an account and '''be bold'''. The points you raise are important, and I think you're the best one to correct them. You have my support, at least in these two cases. [[User_talk:Yandman|<font color="red">'''yandman'''</font>]] 11:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 
:::Please keep biases out of wikipedia, yes it is important to include critisism in an article but keep them confined to a critisism section. This is a neutral, unbiased encyclopedia not a political outlet. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/69.151.111.43|69.151.111.43]] ([[User talk:69.151.111.43|talk]]) 02:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
 
== Monkies... ==
 
Someone put Bush as monkeys.... can someone fix this? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Captain bingo|Captain bingo]] ([[User talk:Captain bingo|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Captain bingo|contribs]]) 16:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:See below. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 19:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== picture of the Bush family is currently a picture of a bunch of monkeys. ==
 
Um, I'm not the biggest Bush supporter but that's kinda unprofessional, guys.
Could you remove it? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/143.166.226.42|143.166.226.42]] ([[User talk:143.166.226.42|talk]]) 18:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
:While that's more clever than most vandalism on this page, it's quite common. It was soon reverted. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 19:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== Category:Drunk driving should be added ==
 
That category has other well known drunk drivers in it such as Joan Kennedy and Mel Gibson. George W. Bush belongs there also. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/4.225.125.218|4.225.125.218]] ([[User talk:4.225.125.218|talk]]) 02:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
 
== George Bush Church Information ==
 
I have a couple of issues with the information about the Church information in the "Early Life" section of the article, but I'm a new user so I can't change them. Passage in Question:
 
"Bush also left his family's Episcopal Church to join his wife's Methodist Church. Today, they are members of the congregation of the Highland Park United Methodist Church, near Dallas.[10]"
 
1. Highland Park is an independant city within and completely surrounded by Dallas, it is not 'near Dallas' but within Dallas. (I'm from Dallas)
 
2. Numerous Articles state that George W. Bush has not regularly attended any church at least since he has entered office. I can only find one at the moment [http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15208_1.html] but I'm pretty sure I've seen others. The reference cited in the article does quote someone as saying, "I go to the same church that the Bushes attend, Highland Park Methodist in Dallas", but she might only mean that they go there when they're in Dallas. None of the Bush clan have ever lived in Dallas as far as I know so why would they belong to a Church there? Also, Marine One definitely is not seen flying over Dallas every Sunday. U.S. Presidents have for some reason been reluctant to visit Dallas for several decades now.
 
I recommend that the last sentance in the above passage be deleted entirely and if anything be replaced with a note that GWB does not currently regularly attend church. [[User:Scmeuguta|Scmeuguta]] 05:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
self correction: I must have had a brain fart. GWB lived and made his fortune in Dallas from 1988 to 1991 when he became part owner of the Texas Rangers[http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/6482734/all_hat_no_cattle], so it is very likely that he went to Highland Park Methodist while he lived here. Still, I don't think this qualifies him as a current member of the congregation. [[User:Scmeuguta|Scmeuguta]] 07:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
:I'll make the first change, about Highland Park. As for the other one, I'll look at it later, if I get back on; but, it is only another 3.5 days. Don't sweat it too much. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 19:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== Arbusto translated ==
 
Doesn't the Spanish "arbusto" translate to the English "shrub"? Hence, many of George W. Bush's critics refer to him as "Shrub."
 
[[User:Herb Evans|Herb Evans]] 15:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
:No, as far as I know, it translates to Bush...as in George W. '''Bush'''. - '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>16:53, 8 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
== "Pro-Military" reference ==
This article contains the following sentence: "Bush enjoyed strong support among Americans holding conservative and pro-military views."
This is absurd. Every Democrat I know is "pro-military." However, we want the troops brought home, instead of being embroiled in a senseless conflict. Bush lied to the nation about why we needed to invade Iraq---and yet his followers are described as "pro-military." The fact is, there are many "pro-military" people out there (including a growing number of soldiers) who despise Bush. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/71.86.120.67|71.86.120.67]] ([[User talk:71.86.120.67|talk]]) 23:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
 
:The talk page should be used to discuss suggestions and improvements to the article. With all due respect, your personal observations of who likes or despises Bush are irrelevant here. If you have a reliable source you'd like to use in changing the sentence, please do so, and cite your source properly. [[User:Ramsquire|Ramsquire]] <sup>[[User talk:Ramsquire|(throw me a line)]]</sup> 23:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 
::This does seem to be a legitimate contention; what is a "pro-military" view? There are indeed things that Bush has endorsed which could be considered rather unsupportive of the military, and there are very many people who consider themselves supportive of the military who oppose these things. Then, of course, there are many people who feel the exact opposite way. This sentence seems to imply that there is a direct correlation with identification as "pro-military" and support of Bush. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 02:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I understand where he's coming from, but I think he's missing the point. The phrasing was not meant to say "Democrats are anti-military". The phrasing was meant to say that the type that is most pro-military is most likely to favor Bush. And I can't quote anything right now to support that, but I've seen it many times over, from the late-cast military votes helping Bush in the 2000 election, to his welcome enthusiastic welcome after the election, to the conventional wisdom that the military supports conservatives (both in this society and others, e.g., [[Franco]]). <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]] ([[User talk:Patstuart|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Patstuart|contribs]]) 06:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
::::I understand what the citation is meant to mean, but it's rather misleading. I mean, to say "pro-military" implies that there is an "anti-military". - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 07:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I don't think so. It just means the crowd that heavily favors things of the military. If you can come up with better wording that's just as accurate, by all means do. But that might be rather difficult. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 07:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::I don't know, but "pro-military", to me, as someone who is mortified by Bush but has many friends and relatives in military service, smacks of "supporting the troops" rhetoric, which is, quite frankly, all crap. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 07:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:Well, it should be mentioned somehow, however it's said, although military support for Bush has wained considerably since his inauguration. It doesn't look at all like rhetoric to me, it looks like a well meant statement, that, when understood, is quite accurate. This is nothing worse than is in the newspapers every day, mostly because it's hard to find another way to say it. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 07:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
::I'm willing to admit that perhaps it is indeed my personal bias in this matter -- my vehement dislike for Bush discourages me from making significant edits to this article in order to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. But it's my experience that the term "pro" (and by correlation the term "anti"), particularly when applied to groups of people, seems to me to be deceptively and unnecessarily divisive. I definitely would find it appropriate to mention that ''among military servicepeople'' he enjoys (enjoyed?) widespread support, as that is a pretty clearly objective fact. I'm just wary of "pro-military" as a rather subjective group. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 08:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Hmm, that doesn't sound too bad. The only problem I have now, though, is that the crowd that's, um, usually all about military stuff, even if it's not in the military, is pro-Bush as well. -[[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 08:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
::::I think I see what you're saying (without actually saying it?). Something akin to "among military servicepeople and voters who support a military agenda"? - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 21:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::<nowiki>*ding*</nowiki> - correct. [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 03:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::I think that's actually a more accurate and appropriate term. How do you feel about switching that wording in for "pro-military"? - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 03:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Sure, if you think you can make it sound right. To be honest, no matter how you say it, it will probably come out clumsy, though, "among those especially supportive of the military agenda". [[User:Patstuart|Patstuart]]<sup>[[User_talk:Patstuart|talk]]|[[Special:contributions/Patstuart|edits]]</sup> 03:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::I agree it probably won't sound great, but I think it's legitimate to sacrifice a little bit of that for accuracy. - Che 21:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 
==Frogs==
I can't see how [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&diff=prev&oldid=93501860 this edit] made by [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] has any place in the article. Why should we care about Bush's childhood friend Terry Throckmorton's story about shooting frogs? I can't see how this warrants inclusion in GWB's bio. I reverted it, but the edit was reinserted with an edit summary saying it is "exculpatory, as explanation for some ways of thinking" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&diff=prev&oldid=93503367]. I won't revert again for now, but I don't think this should be included. '''''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font face="comic sans ms" color="mediumblue">Auburn</font><font face="comic sans ms" color="darkorange">Pilot</font>]]'''''[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<sup><small>talk</small></sup>]] <small>02:55, 11 December 2006 ([[UTC]])</small>
 
:I agree. The implicit assertion that shooting frogs is somehow linked to his Middle East invasions is kind of silly. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 03:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
::Me, three. I can understand why it might be interesting but it appears to need a lot more context. And I don't think it's important enough, even with that context, to be included in this particular (very long) article. I also am a bit wary of including a psychological analysis written by newspaper author. If I have misunderstood or mischaracterized the article, please let me know! --[[User:ElKevbo|ElKevbo]] 03:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_W._Bush&curid=3414021&diff=93507563&oldid=93506066] As far as I know, Bush doesn't advocate putting explosives in juvenile offenders or shooting them. - [[User:CheNuevara|<font color="f0b400">Che</font> <font color="004411">Nuevara</font>]] 03:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)