Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Archive B4 and Fire Emblem: Difference between pages

Revision as of 03:04, 13 December 2004

Revision as of 23:40, 1 March 2007

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{{Unreferencedsect|date=February 2007}}

'''See also:''' [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]]

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==Color of breed tables==

It has come to my attention that this WikiProject uses the same color as animals in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life]] taxobox. I would like to suggest changing it (even to a different shade of pink) so that each color is used in only one table. Since there are undoubtedly many more animal tables than dog breed ones, it would be easier to change these than those. I will do the change myself if no one else wants to (though tell me what color you want, or I'll just pick one). See [[Wikipedia:Taxobox]]. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 03:38, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

[[Image:Fire_emblem_noken.jpg|thumb|250px|Eliwood, Hector and Lyn from ''Fire Emblem (Game Boy Advance)'', the first ''Fire Emblem'' to be released internationally.]]

:That was a deliberate choice. mav suggested we use the same colour for dogs as animals in the Tree of Life project (dogs being animals an' all) and that seemed like a good idea. The discussion is on [[User talk:Maveric149/archive 10]]. We were originally using bright green and considered using 11 different colours, one for each FIC class and one for uncategorized. I don't particularly object to a change, although linking the colours did work well for [[Dingo]], where the taxobox and the breed infobox were linked up. What do you think? -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] 11:38, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

{{nihongo|'''''Fire Emblem'''''|ファイアーエムブレム|Faiā Emuburemu}} is a popular [[strategy game|strategy]]/[[computer role-playing games|role-playing]] [[video game]] franchise developed by [[Intelligent Systems|Intelligent Systems Co., Ltd.]] (specifically [[Shouzou Kaga]]), the makers of [[Nintendo Wars#Advance Wars|Advance Wars]], and published by [[Nintendo Co., Ltd.]]. The ''Fire Emblem'' games are known to be the first of their genre, the [[strategic role-playing game]], with a very strong emphasis on western forms of medieval folklore.

::Well, I'm now inclined to think that the colors don't matter. There's already a lot of repetition, and that will likely only grow worse over time. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 17:51, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

The series currently spans ten games, and has graced the [[Famicom]], [[Super Famicom]], [[Game Boy Advance]], [[GameCube]] and [[Wii]]. [[Fire Emblem: The Goddess of Dawn|The most recent title in the series]] was first released in Japan on February 22, 2007. A North American release is expected to follow at an undisclosed date in 2007.

:::Then perhaps we can leave it as pink for now and see how things go. Let me know if you think differently as things progress over at [[Wikipedia talk:Taxobox|Wikipedia talk:Infobox]] ;) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] 18:26, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

==International release==

==Sample dog article for projects project==

Since its inception in 1990, the ''Fire Emblem'' series was formerly confined to Japan. In 2001, Nintendo released ''[[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]'', a fighting game starring characters from games produced throughout the company's history. The Japanese release of the game contained two characters from the ''Fire Emblem'' series; Marth, the original protagonist in the series, starred in ''Fire Emblem: Ankoku no Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi'', and ''Fire Emblem: Monshō no Nazo'', and Roy starred in the then-unreleased sixth game, ''Fire Emblem: Fūin no Tsurugi''. According to Nintendo's official Japanese website, Marth was put in ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' upon the request of Japanese gamers. Marth's design and playability earned him extra attention while the game underwent debug testing in North America, and it was by the decision of Nintendo of America that he was included in the North American version. Roy had been included in Japan to promote the upcoming release of ''Fūin no Tsurugi'', and was likewise included in the North American version. It was due in part to Marth and Roy's popularity from their appearance in ''SSBM'' that Nintendo eventually decided to localize and market ''Fire Emblem'' games for North American and European release.

{{SampleWikiProject}}

''[[Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken]]'', the seventh title in the series, became the first to see an international release in 2003. Released outside of Japan simply as ''Fire Emblem'', the game was designed specifically with newcomers to the series in mind, and the first ten chapters were structured in a manner that eased newcomers into the gameplay. All ''Fire Emblem'' titles produced since have also seen international release.

:Anyone got a preferred article from [[List of dog breeds]]? I think it should be one with a photo, but other than that I'm easy - I'll have a look through some tomorrow to see what goodies we have. -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] 23:46, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

==Gameplay==

:[[Afghan Hound]] isn't bad although it's still a wee bit POV I think, but it does use the new thumbnail image format. [[Newfoundland]] is nice because it has more than one image and the text is a little better, but neither image uses the thumbnail format. [[User:Elf|Elf]] 03:34, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

===Basics===

[[Image:Thracia776Screencap.png|thumb|right|Game-play map screen from ''Fire Emblem: Thracia 776''.]]

''Fire Emblem'' is a series of [[turn-based]] strategy games that involve moving units through a map grid in order to defeat the opposition and eventually complete a mission objective, such as seizing a base, surviving for a number of turns, or defeating a boss. The combat system bases itself on a [[rock-paper-scissors]] method of fighting, as each weapon type has both an advantage and a disadvantage against other types. From ''Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu'' to the most recent game ''[[Fire Emblem: Akatsuki no Megami]]'', the weapon triangle has been [[lance]] beats [[sword]], sword beats [[axe]], and axe beats lance. Bows are unaffected by the triangle and can do higher amounts of damage against flying units, but this is offset by the bow-wielder's inability to counter-attack direct melee strikes.

A similar [[Magic in the Fire Emblem series|triangle for magic]], that varies from game to game, has also existed. The basic triangles of magic are light beats dark, dark beats anima, and anima beats light. In other games, fire beats wind, wind beats thunder and thunder beats fire. Magic is also unique in that magical attacks can be used from either a distance or in melee range.

::What about [[Alaskan Malamute]], it's short but covers all the points asked for by the WikiProject. It's also very neutral. I've changed the image to a the thumbnail format. If not, either of those you mentioned looks good -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 11:06, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

===Units and relationships===

:::That works for me. [[User:Elf|Elf]] 20:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Unlike ''Advance Wars'' and other tactical RPGs such as ''[[Final Fantasy Tactics]]'', player-generated units are absent. Instead, ''Fire Emblem'' utilizes a distinct cast of characters, each belonging to one of many [[character classes]]. Unlike most strategy games, each unit has a personality and past of its own. Money is used to buy better weapons and various items, and using units in battle will allow them to gain [[experience points]]; a character's level will increase upon gaining one hundred experience points. Leveling party members up can be a challenge, as many newly recruited units arrive with inferior levels and statistics, but because the amount of experience earned from defeating an enemy is determined by the level discrepancy between the battling units, a characters at lower levels earn more experience than more experienced characters when defeating enemies of comparable level.

Depending on the mechanics of the particular game, characters may change classes upon reaching a certain level, or through the use of a special item that will force a unit's promotion. Characters that change class receive a one-time statistics upgrade that is higher than the average leveling upgrade and additional abilities that are standards of the higher-tier classes. For instance, a cavalier in ''Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance'' will change classes automatically after earning enough experience to advance to level 21, becoming a level 1 paladin, will become capable of moving greaters distances in a single turn, and will become able to wield two kinds of weapons.

::::Done -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 00:06, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Typically, the size of the player's character roster is very small at the beginning of each game, but as progress is made, other units may join the player's party through story events or through actions taken. The latter games in the series typically contain playable rosters between thirty and fifty characters deep.

:::::Just noticed that it doesn't use the new table markup but instead uses HTML tbl markup. Ditto with the template on this project's meta page. Which way to we want to go? Your latest sample in your sandbox uses the new markup, and that's what I've been assuming we'd go with--? [[User:Elf|Elf]] 17:52, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[[Romantic love|Romance]] and friendship are prevalent themes throughout the ''Fire Emblem'' series. Starting from the sixth game, ''Fuuin no Tsurugi'', this characteristic has been further emphasized in the gameplay itself through the use of support conversations. In the GBA ''Fire Emblem'' titles, these conversations could be triggered by having specific pairs of characters end their turns standing next to each other. After a specific number of turns have accumulated, the player is given the option to view a support conversation between the two characters. ''Path of Radiance'' simplified the approach by requiring characters to be in a certain number of battles together and not necessarily adjacent to one another. Each time a pair of characters engage in a support conversation, their affinity towards each other will increase, giving them statistical bonuses that activate any time the characters are next to each other on the battlefield. If two characters with a mutual romantic attraction, strong friendship, or other form of mutual connection engage in three Supports throughout the game, the result will often affect the game's ending. Depending on the characters involved, such results could include marriage, a deepening of friendship, or a continued pursuit of their continuing relationship.

::::Yes, I think we should change over - it's purely a matter of getting round to it. I think that's what I'll work on this evening, I've only got an hour or so though so won't get that far tonight. I'll do the template and Alaskan Malamute first then see how far I get down the list, feel free to do any you want to of course. -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 18:51, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

===Death===

''Fire Emblem'' characters that run out of hit points and die cannot be brought back to life in game. This also affects recruitable NPC and enemy units. If a player wishes to continue using a character or recruit a unit that has been killed, then the chapter must be restarted from the beginning. In addition, a "Game Over" occurs whenever one of the main characters (Lords) falls, or in other situations depending on a mission's requirements. Only under special circumstances, such as being significantly related to the story, will characters who have fallen in battle not actually die. In extremely rare situations, such as in ''Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu'', ''Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones'', and ''Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance'', characters that fall in battle can become playable at a later point in the game. Exceptions aside, there is normally no method for restoring a fallen character's life, such as a particular spell or scroll. When there is one, it rarely occurs and breaks with only one use.

{{Fire Emblem characters}}

==More than just dog breeds==

There have been discussions in other areas about having main category pages that provide an index into related articles. While trying to find something earlier, I was thinking that an index/category page of dog-related articles would be a good thing to have. (We'd reference [[List of dog breeds]] in that index, not the individual breed pages.) It could have subcategories like descriptions, activities, history, biology, sociology (I dunno, what would you call [[Dog adoption]], [[animal shelter]], and the like?). Does anyone know if such a thing exists? If not, who understands Wikipedia well enough to suggest an appropriate title and/or a sample index page from some other topic area? [[User:Elf|Elf]] 03:30, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

==Naming of the series==

Hmm, I found [[List of biology topics]], but it's so huge they've arranged it alphabetically rather than by category. [[List of production topics]] is by category. [[User:Elf|Elf]] 05:14, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The "Fire Emblem" to which the games' title refers is a plot device or item that has taken multiple forms throughout the series, changing with the setting. The original Fire Emblem was a [[shield]] which allowed the wielder, [[Marth (Fire Emblem)|Marth]], to use the [[Falchion]] sword. In the remake of the original game in ''Monshō no Nazo'', the Fire Emblem can be used by Marth to open chests and can be upgraded with five orbs to turn it into the [[Shield of Seals]] in Book two. In ''Rekka no Ken'' and ''Fūin no Tsurugi'', the Fire Emblem is a gemstone required for a ceremony to recognize the heir to the throne of Bern. It is also used to unlock the Sword of Seals. In ''The Sacred Stones'', the Fire Emblem is the Sacred Stone of Grado, which holds the Demon King's spirit, but it is split in two (the other half forms the Dark Stone), and the Fire Emblem is crushed. In ''Path of Radiance'', it was another name for Lehran's Medallion, an artifact containing the imprisoned spirit of an evil god. In ''Seisen no Keifu'', it does not appear, but it is mentioned as the family crest of the Velthomer house by the person succeeding it. But, it was also hinted to be one of the twelve holy weapons in the game.

==Games==

:OK, being the impatient sort, I'm already answering my own question and starting [[List of dog topics]]. :-) [[User:Elf|Elf]] 05:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) Whew! Did a google search on everything with the word "dog" in it; gave up after the references started to be few & far between. And, as usual, google list is out of date, so more recent entries didn't show up. Suggestions, additions, organization welcome. [[User:Elf|Elf]] 06:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The following is a list of games released in the series.

Looks good! I can think of a couple of additions, although it looks pretty comprehensive, I'll add some later -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 11:06, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

:''Games predating ''Rekka no Ken'' were released only in Japan. Due to this, there are no official English language titles for these games. An official English language title may be given if Nintendo of America elects to localize any of these games to North America.''

:Heh! That "couple" I mentioned - you already found them. Good work -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 00:08, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

{| width="100%" class="wikitable"

:Dang! You mean I could've taken the afternoon off? [[User:Elf|Elf]] 00:20, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

|-

!Cover !! Official Western title !! Japanese title !! Japanese Title Translation !!Platform !! Year !!Notes

==Review Spaniel article==

|-

For anyone interested, I just put up an article on [[Spaniel]]s that gives some background on what a spaniel is and then lists breeds that are probably classifiable as Spaniels. If anyone knows more about what makes a spaniel and what doesn't (and it's not just whethe the name includes the word "spaniel" ;-) ), I'd be delighted if you'd review the article and even add more info. [[User:Elf|Elf]] 17:42, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fe1box.jpg|100px]]

|

== Request for photo ==

|ファイアーエムブレム　暗黒竜と光の剣 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi]]'')

|''The Dark Dragon and Sword of Light''

Hi, can we have a photo of a couple of different dogs of different breeds together to put onto [[artificial selection]] please? preferably one big one and one little fluffy one? [[User:Duncharris|Duncharris]] 15:12, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

|[[Famicom]]

|[[1990]]

:I'll see whether I can arrange that some weekend while I'm surrounded by canine-type beast things. Mostly I do [[dog agility]], which doesn't work well for really big breeds, so largest I'm likely to see are [[German Shepherd Dog]]s or maybe a [[Briard]]. Other challenge is that dogs who don't know each other might not want to stand comfortably next to each other for a photo, and most dog owners tend to have only large or only small dogs. I might be able to get a [[Border Collie]] and a [[Jack Russell Terrier]] together. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:59, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

|The first ''Fire Emblem'' title.

|-

::I might have better luck if I go to a show this year - I'm not sure yet if I will, but if I do I'll look out for a good combination too. A similar photo that would be useful is the three types of poodle together, and other images of similar situations (and I want a pony...) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 07:49, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fe2box.jpg|100px]]

|

:I just added [[:Image:IMG013biglittledogFX wb.jpg]]. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 06:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|ファイアーエムブレム外伝 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem Gaiden]]'')

|''Sidestory''

::Excellent Elf, that really does the job -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 09:23, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|[[Famicom]]

|[[1991]]

:Sorry, no pony, though. :-) Wish I had a photo--last year at Agility Camp, for the costume contest, one of the attendees said she was tired of people asking whether her Great Dane was some kind of pony, so she did a completely professional job of dressing the Dane *as* a pony--matching tail and mane and a litle saddle, and that's all it took! It was hysterical. And I don't often get hysterical-- [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 15:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC) Oh, wait--I found a photo online: [http://www.powerpawsagility.com/camp/pics/images/2.html Great Dane pony]!

|Side story of the first title.

|-

::Heh, wonderful -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 16:14, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fe3box.jpg|100px]]

|

===Common Nickname===

|ファイアーエムブレム　紋章の謎 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem: Monshō no Nazo]]'')

I added a "Common nickname" section to the table. Seems that almost every breed has one or maybe 2 that dog people in-the-know would recognize but that outsiders wouldn't. Have been finding or putting many of those in the article. I think it belongs in the table. Thoughts? [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 20:09, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

|''Mystery of the Emblem''

|[[Super Nintendo Entertainment System|Super Famicom]]

:Looks good to me -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 21:49, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

|[[1993]]

|Enhanced remake of the ''Dark Dragon and Sword of Light'' along with sequel. It was adapted into a 2-part [[OVA]] series. In the English translated credits it says the show was based on "Fire Emblem: Secret of Crest" instead of "Mystery of the Emblem".

==Dog pages footer==

|-

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Seisen no Keifu.jpg|100px]]

|

=="No image yet" photo link==

|ファイアーエムブレム　聖戦の系譜 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu]]'')

My latest wiki discovery is this very-seldom-used page: [[Image:No image yet]]. It suggests (as does the [[Wikipedia:Requested pictures]] page) using a link to it from any page where we know a photo is wanted. This seems like it might be an excellent idea on the dog breed pages where there is no photo for the infobox. To see what it looks like, I implemented it at [[American Water Spaniel]]. It might encourage folks to provide photos. Thoughts? [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 16:37, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

|''Genealogy of <br />the Holy War''

|[[Super Nintendo Entertainment System|Super Famicom]]

:Sorry to sound discouraging again - but it just looks like a broken image to me. Maybe if it were some sort of image in itself? -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 18:09, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

|[[1996]]

|The first ''Fire Emblem'' title set in a separate universe. Deviates from standard ''Fire Emblem'' gameplay mechanisms.

::i have uploaded sannse's idea: [[:Image:NO IMAGE YET.png]], [[Image:NO IMAGE YET.png]]. [[User:Badanedwa|Badanedwa]] 22:22, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

|-

:::or this version, [[:Image:NO IMAGE YET square.png]], [[Image:NO IMAGE YET square.png]]. [[User:Badanedwa|Badanedwa]] 22:44, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fe5box.jpg|100px]]

|

==Categories==

|ファイアーエムブレム トラキア776 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem: Thracia 776]]'')

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|''Fire Emblem: Thracia 776''

|[[Super Nintendo Entertainment System|Super Famicom]]

== Help! Emergency! I've messed up the DOG article! ==

|[[Nintendo Power (cartridge)|Nintendo Power]]: [[1999]] <p> Commercial release: [[2000]]

|A sidestory of ''Seisen no Keifu''. The last commercial release of the Super Famicom.

I didn't mean to. I was edited the bottom section and adding to it and every time I tried to do a preview and save it kept freezing on me.

|-

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fuuin no Tsurugi.jpg|100px]]

Finally it worked, but to my horror my ammended section has REPLACE the entire article! Can somebody reverse this FAST? [[User:Quill|Quill]] 01:30, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

|

|ファイアーエムブレム　封印の剣 <p>(''[[Fire Emblem: Fūin no Tsurugi]]'')

== Categories, Cont'd.... ==

|''Sword of Seals''

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|[[Game Boy Advance]]

|[[2002]]

== Kennel Club or 'kennel club' ==

|The first ''Fire Emblem'' title to appear on a Nintendo [[handheld]].

|-

''BTW, you don't have to capitalize text that's linked unless it's a proper name; for example, dog breeding. Wikipedia automatically looks for a matching article whose first letter is capitalized. Pretty clever of them, huh?'' (Quote from a Wikipedian who shall remain nameless)

|style="align:center"|[[Image:GBA Fire Emblem Box.jpg|100px]]

*Yeah, I thought so, until I realized that ''titles'' of articles are case sensitive. Here's a for instance: for weeks I've been thinking that we had no article for 'kennel club' and we really need one. Have a few minutes, and I'm ready to write, and typed 'kennel club', lower case, which led to 'Kennel Club' (upper case), which is a 'disambig' page. Didn't remember seeing that before. Was about to start, but something was nagging at the back of my brain saying I was sure that links showed no kennel club article--don't get ahead of me, folks--you guessed it--the links in our articles go to 'kennel club', lower case. So...I'm going to put my stub at 'kennel club', because that's what I mean, and anyone with an objection or a better idea can move it...change it...etc. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 09:22, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|''[[Fire Emblem (Game Boy Advance)|Fire Emblem]]''

|ファイアーエムブレム 烈火の剣 <p>(''Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken'')

::It's a bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. The first word of a link to an article title is not case sensitive ([[This link]] and [[this link]] are the same) but further words are ([[This Link]] and [[This link]] are not the same). Article titles have to have first word capitalised, which is why the "iMac" article is at "IMAC", and the convention is to have other words in lower case unless it is a proper noun.

|''Sword of Fire''

|[[Game Boy Advance]]

::On the kennel club articles, I think the title you used is correct. The disambiguation article at "Kennel Club" refers to the organisation titles (and so properly capitalised) while your new article refers to the concept of kennel clubs. So if we are using the word as a title we capitalise both words: "This was agreed by the [[Kennel Club]] in 1872". And if the general concept then we don't: "Most [[kennel club]]s are privately funded". ''But'', in the first example we would always be better to link to the specific club article anyway. So it seems easier to make "Kennel Club" into a redirect to "Kennel club". So I've done so. Sorry to be so long-winded bout it though :) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 12:37, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|[[2003]]

:::Thanks Sannse. Long-winded? Not a bit of it; take your time, I need it.... [[User:Quill|Quill]] 09:11, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|The first ''Fire Emblem'' title to be released in the West and the prequel to ''Sword of Seals''.

|-

== More about Categories ==

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones.JPG|100px]]

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|''[[Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones]]''

|ファイアーエムブレム 聖魔の光石 <p>(''Fire Emblem: Seima no Kōseki'')

== dog trouble ==

|''The Stones of Saintly and Demonic Light''

|[[Game Boy Advance]]

Hi all--Wikipedia is behaving very strangely for me today.

|Japan: [[2004]] US: [[2005]]

|First title to incorporate several play mechanics not seen since ''Fire Emblem Gaiden''.

For one thing, [[kennel club]] keeps taking me into the edit this page rather than the article.

|-

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fire Emblem PoR Boxart.JPG|100px]]

I tried to add two new articles, and for some reason the system wasn't letting me do it; now 'my contributions' looks like I've added the same article three times.

|''[[Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance]]''

|ファイアーエムブレム 蒼炎の軌跡<p> (''Fire Emblem: Sōen no Kiseki'')

Do you see articles on [[conformation point]] and [[fault (dog)]]? I've also got one on [[breed standard]] but for now I'm giving up in frustration.

|''Trail of the Blue Flame''

|[[Nintendo Gamecube]]

Thanks--[[User:Quill|Quill]] 00:39, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|[[2005]]

|The first title in the series to be rendered in [[3D computer graphics|three-dimensions]] and to incorporate [[full motion video]].

:You must not have made your offerings to the proper wiki gods this morning! Indeed, I get articles for kennel club, conformationpoint, and fault (dog).[[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:52, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|-

|style="align:center"|[[Image:Fire Emblem Goddess of the Dawn Japanese Boxart.jpg|100px]]

::Sigh--''[[The Gods Must Be Crazy|The Gods Must be CRAZY]]!! '' [[User:Quill|Quill]] 22:08, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|''(Has yet to be officially titled worldwide)

|ファイアーエムブレム 暁の女神 <p> (''Fire Emblem: Akatsuki no Megami'')

:::Hey! I didn't link that title (above)--how did that happen?? This is getting Twilight Zone-ish!! [[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

|''[[Fire Emblem: The Goddess of Dawn|Goddess of Dawn]]'' <ref>{{cite web|title=Fire Emblem: The Goddess of Dawn (Wii)|url=http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3153633|accessdate=2007-02-26|last=Kennedy|first=Sam|date=[[2006-09-14]]|publisher=[[1UP.com]]}}</ref>

|[[Wii]]

== Non-list lists ==

|[[2007]]

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

|The sequel to ''Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance''.

== Dog Registries ==

I noticed this while reviewing recent edits to the goldendoodle article. The United Kennel Club Int'l has been listed in the breed table.

The Continental Kennel Club and the United Kennel Club Int'l are, at best, minor registries. The website of the CKC does not even describe its organization. According to the website of the UKCI, it is a private family business. I am therefore questioning the inclusion of minor registries in the breed tables. In essence, that would mean that the breed table points to an outside link to a small business, and I thought that Wikipedia didn't do that? This is not meant to cast aspersions, as there is nothing wrong with small family businesses, just to point out that as far as I can tell, our other outside links point to breed or kennel clubs.

[[User:Quill|Quill]] 00:23, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:I was intending to ask your opinion on this Quill, so I'm glad you've raised the issue. I spent some time yesterday reading the UKCI website and various criticisms of them. It seems to me that these registries (and I refrain from adding quotes there) are more about advertising puppies than anything else. And links to such adverts are generally considered a bad thing on Wikipedia. Certainly I am not convinced they have a place in the table, even if they are the only registry available. I think we should stick to the breed and kennel clubs we have been using -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 16:46, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

::It seems from recent edits at [[goldendoodle]] and [[terrier]] that we will probably need to discuss this and come to a consensus. Can we have some opinions from other project members? [[User:Quill|Quill]] 00:29, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

: BTW, let's not confuse the United Kennel Club (UKC) [http://www.ukcdogs.com] with the Universal Kennel Club International (UKCI) [http://www.UniversalKennel.com]. The former is listed on the [[Kennel Club]] article, the latter is (rightfully) not. I mention this because you twice referred to the UKCI as "United Kennel Club Int'l".

::Yep, duly noted. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:45, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

: I agree that the links to the CKC and UKCI should be removed (I suspect many of the UKCI "breeders" are puppy mills), but, if you think the larger, older kennel clubs aren't businesses, you're fooling yourselves <grin>.[[User:Wcrowe|Wcrowe]] 17:01, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

::I don't think anyone here is so deluded. Some of us may even have issues with the major registries; I'll be the first one to say that I have. I just think that there are dog welfare components at work in the biggies that are missing from the johnnie-come-latelies. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:45, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

:::Glad we got that cleared up. Now, as someone else pointed out (don't know what happened to that edit), the UKCI seems to be nothing more than a clearing house for, um, "breeders" to sell dogs. I think they'll register anything that breathes. Really, when you get right down to it, there is nothing to prevent anyone from starting a kennel club and registering litters.[[User:Wcrowe|Wcrowe]] 15:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I got sent over this way after posting some comments on the Jack Russell entries. The question is how or where to discuss the individual breed registries - and particularly those that oppose recognition by the all-breed registries, and why.

In the case of the JRT, to treat the AKC as the authority on the breed when the AKC recognized the JRT in direct opposition to the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the JRT owners and breeders, and when far more JRTs are bred and registered under JRTCA auspices than AKC, is simply not going to leave the reader with a correct impression of the breed.

And the JRT is not the only breed that's been hijacked by the AKC - a similar fight is ongoing with Border Collies and a number of other popular working breeds.

The simple truth is that the AKC's standards are poorly suited for maintaining the working qualities of a breed. And the owners of working dogs know this. There's a reason that agility competitions are dominated by JRTs in the lower height classes and by Border Collies in the taller - neither breed has been crippled by decades of breeding to AKC standards.

But where should a discussion of these issues belong? Where should the JRTCA be referenced?

I've looked around, and I'd say that the [[breed club]] entry is where this might best go. Currently, it suggests that these fall into two categories only - those that maintain their own registries while lobbying for the acceptance of a breed by the all-breed clubs and those that act as social clubs for the owners while letting the all-breed clubs run the registry.

An additional paragraph pointing out that some breed clubs are adamantly opposed to recognition by all-breed clubs - and are fighting against involuntary takeovers of the breeds by the all-breed clubs - would certainly seem apropos.

--[[User:Jdege|jdege]] 21:26, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

:Good question where the matter(s) are best addressed. You're right, [[breed club]] could be one; [[breed registry]] (hmm, doesn't exist yet--thought it did--someone better create it cuz there are a lot of pages pointing to it! and more in a minute when I get done disambig'ing) could be another; somewhere out there there's a discussion about open vs closed stud books ([[selective breeding]]? Yup, there it is.). Some parts of the discussion might go in all places, or maybe all the related discussions should be gathered in one place--I don't have a perfect answer for ya. So you're probably safe in any of those places. As we often say on Wikipedia, [[Be bold]]! [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 02:29, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Oh, and just found more at [[purebred]] and [[dog breeding]].

==Collection of dog photos==

Someone started, and I've been adding to, a page with all free-distribution (e.g., GFDL), public ___domain, etc. dog photos: [[Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs]]. I added the photos that [[User:Sannse]] and [[User:Elf|I] took and have been working my way through all of the breed articles, slowly, checking the photos to see whether they're GFDL or similar and then either adding them to the photo album page or attempting to contact the contributor and leaving a note on the [[Wikipedia talk:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs|album's talk page]].

This is just a request that, if you see anyone add a dog photo, to check whether its source and copyright/license status are identified; if not, attempt to contact the user (nicely) to get the info; and if it is free distr/public, add it to the album page? Or at least let me know that it's there so I can follow up. Hopefully I'll see any photos that are added because all the breed pages are on my watchlist, but ya never know. Thanks! [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:11, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:See also [[Wikipedia:Requested_pictures#Dog_breeds]].

==Schnauzer naming==

Please give your thoughts on the [[Talk:Schnauzer]] page. Thanks. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 02:05, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Veterinarians ==

I just added a couple of stubs to the [[List of dog topics]], plus linked [[James Herriot]]. Is this all right with everyone? [[User:Quill|Quill]] 01:44, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

==Categories (part 23)==

moved to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

==Format of images in tables==

Any thoughts on this? Personally I much prefer the "thumb" version - partly for the aesthetics of the thing, but mostly because readers are not likely to know that there is a larger version of the image available. The expand icon is vital for the full effect of the images to be appreciated -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 16:28, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:Do you mean a smaller version of the picture that when you move the cursor over it it's obvious that you can click to enlarge? I like this too. Overly-large pictures dominate the article and take ages to load. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 07:06, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's the difference between:

{| cellpadding=1

|[[Image:Shiba Inu 600.jpg|100px|thumb|none|This]]

||and

||[[Image:Shiba Inu 600.jpg|100px|none|This]] This

|}

==Music==

Recently all the images in the dog infoboxes has been changed to the latter; still the same size image, but without the border or the expand icon. It also makes it more difficult to add a caption (without using more complicated tables as I did above). I think it's an all round bad idea, but wanted to see if others felt the same -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 11:46, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The musical scores for ''Fire Emblem'' have been composed by [[Yuka Tsujiyoko]] for most of the series' history. ''Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones'' was scored by Saki Haruyama, Yoshihiko Kitamura, and Yoshito Hirano, under Tsujiyoko's supervision. The first eight games in the series all featured soundtracks composed entirely of instrumental music. However, ''[[Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance]]'' broke from this trend with the end credit theme "Life Returns", a lyrical piece sung in the language of the fictional heron laguz tribe.

:I agree. I like the pictures with the border and expand icon better. I'm going to leave ChicXulub a message on their talk page to see why they changed all of our images (they apparently did it in other categories too). [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 13:58, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::Huh. I got back after 3 days off, checked my watchlist in chronological order, and just went to work fixing most of the images before I ever went to Chic's talk page or looked here--I figured that if he/she had looked here, the changes wouldn't have been made. So... see *my* note on [[User talk:ChicXulub]]. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 06:23, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:::Heh, I probably should have been bold and done the same. Thanks Elf -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 17:24, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

==Show dogs and dog shows==

Found articles on [[Crufts]] and (misnamed/misdescribed but now fixed) [[Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show]]. Created a stub for [[show dog]] because was on [[Wikipedia:Most wanted articles]] list. Those of you with interest/knowledge in these areas, have at. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 07:34, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

==Category subproject page==

I have created a subproject page, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories]] to discuss the ongoing categorization of dog-related articles. Please take a look and throw in your two bits on its talk page. Thanks. (And you might want to add it to your watchlist; I don't think subpages go there automagically.) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 03:55, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== you guys might be interested... ==

I happened upon this page while working on recategorizing cat-related pages (there wasn't much organization, and it's proving to be quite a task). [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians_by_pet]] I just thought some of you might want to take a look. [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 18:01, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:No fooling! That's why I left a zillion messages on all the talk pages of places where cat-interested people might notice them, referring to my discussion on organization. It's taking me many hours just to work my way slowly through all the dog articles! Thanks for the new pointer. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]]

::You should check out [[:Category:Cats]] and [[:Category:Felines]]. I've done a lot of work on this stuff today. It makes me wonder if dog-people aren't a bit more fanatical about their pets than cat-people, considering how much thought and work is being put into the dog categories, and the lack thereof in the cats'... [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 19:55, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:Wouldn't surprise me--after all, dog people tend to be very involved in their dogs' lives & activities & vice-versa. Cats? They just hang out-- ;-) You *have* done a lot of category work! Good job. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 20:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::Yo! Lay off cats! ;)

::Actually, I think it's because of the difference of time in the development of dog fancy (much older) and cat fancy. Many more dog breeds and dog organizations, many more purebred dogs are pets than purebred cats, etc. Certainly, the difference in dog-human vs. cat-human interaction plays a large part as well (cat flyball races??!!)

::I came across a person asking questions on categorization (no puns!) on one of the Cat talk pages (Lord knows where) and I recommended that s/he get in touch with Sannse or Elf for help (no, you don't have to thank me ;) [[User:Quill|Quill]] 21:54, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== need support ==

[[:Category:Cat breeds]] and [[:Category:Cat types]] have both been marked for deletion, b/c someone thinks they should be merged. We all know they are two very different things. Could you guys please put in some votes for them not to be? Thanks. [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 20:39, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== (Bad) Shih Tzu picture ==

When I saw that [[Shih Tzu]] didn't have any picture, I took a picture of my pet Shih Tzu and uploaded it to wikipedia, [[:Image:Shih Tzu.JPG]]. However, it's not a very good picture at all quality-wise, the dog isn't standing, it was taken in my living room, the picture needs to be shrunk (its 2048x1536) and my Shih Tzu recently had a haircut so she doesn't have the long hair look Shih Tzus are supposed to. But, if you want to put it in the Shih Tzu article go ahead, I released it into the Public Domain, I just didn't want to put it in without consulting somebody due to it's many flaws. If you think something is better than nothing though, you got your wish :) p.s. I will try to get a better picture up but we'll see... - [[User:Biggins|biggins]] | [[User talk:biggins|talk]] 22:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:I'm going to go ahead and edit the picture some, and re-upload it over the original image (if that's ok) and put it in the Shih Tzu article... still haven't decided if I will put it in the breed table or not.... [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 23:08, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::If you're talking about [[Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs]], all free-distribution dog photos go here whether we use them or not. Any that aren't free (e.g., copyrighted w/no rleease, unlabeled, etc.) go on that page's Talk page with an explanation. It's the only way of keeping track of all dog photos. I just added the current shih tzu photo; if you upload over it, of course it will automatically redraw once you refresh the screen or clear your cache. Or kick the computer and spill coke down its motherboard, whatever it takes. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 23:21, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:I uploading the image under a different file name, and added it to the Shih Tzu's breed table, with a caption saying that it had a "summer-friendly haircut". [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 23:35, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== [[Dog]] article ==

The [[dog]] article is currently 37Kb, exceeding the suggested 32Kb limit for articles. I'm thinking we should split off one or more of the longer sections into their own articles, with a briefer description on the main article. The one section I'm thinking of is attributes. This would be fairly easy to split off. If no one objects, I'd be willing to do it. Let me know. [[User:Lachatdelarue|[[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue]] [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 22:48, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:We need to leave a good hunk of description of what a dog looks like & how it's built and why in the main article. I could see chomping off maybe [[Dog coat]]? [[Dog ear]]? Maybe even some of the details into [[Dog social skills]] (or a better title than that)? Coat especially, because I was thinking in terms of a table, with columns for the term, the definition, example breeds, and a close-up photo-- (ditto for ears, tails). [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 02:06, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::Yes, you're both right. It needs to be a thoughtful choice. That's a problem running through the article: the seemingly arbitrary attention to detail in some areas. There's a good reason for that, of course: everyone writes about what they know. What I'm saying, though, is that we need an objective decision about section type and length. i.e., why cut 'coat' but leave 'diseases and ailments' or 'interaction with humans'? Elf spoke before of a separate [[dog health]] article, e.g. Am I making sense? I'm not suggesting that cuts not be done, but that it's time for some serious thought as to WHICH cuts and WHY...[[User:Quill|Quill]]

:Oh, my, *serious* thought? I'll have to put the screws to my brain and see whether it survives. Or else I'll go pull some weeds. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 23:52, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== linking to Wikipedias in other languages ==

*Dear friends, [[:Category:Dog breeds]] and [[List of dog breeds]] contains now links to Wikipedias in other languages. It was diffucult for me to pay attention

**not to link a list from one language to a categry of another language;

**find ''"island (isolated)" articles / stubs'' in some languages to insert links to existing ''"chains" of articles'';

** not to link to a '''<nowiki>{{disambiguation}}</nowiki>''';

*I looked at some of the lists and could find some of such ''isolated'' articles. Not all lists are checked so far because of lack of time. I got some help from Japan too. Maybe it would be a good idea to find people interested in dog breeding trough the [[Wikipedia:Embassy]] as well in order to involve more people in the project, to compare (, add ...) informations between languages, find a requested picture and so on. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 01:45, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

:I must admit that you started me thinking, and last week I spent a few hours in the French wikipedia trying to straighten out Dog (Chien) and any dog-related articles I could find--not many at all, really. You're right, it will really take people familiar with dogs in the other languages to get that going; there are a couple of breeds posted there that I have no idea what the English version is, and also I wonder whether, for example, "Flatcoated Retriever" is in fact what the French call that breed (although it might well be, since we call many breeds by non-English names). Anyway, it was interesting and I might go back again with my VERY limited vocabulary--mostly formatting, organizing, and adding interlanguage links, as I can't really write or edit the content. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 04:57, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::Halló Elf! I have seen the list at [[:fr:Liste des races de chiens]]. Great job! It is linked now to the whole ''list chain''. Hope to get some feedback from contributors to those and other languages. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 02:31, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)

:Pretty exciting, huh? It needs a lot more "frenchification"; I can find French breed names on the FCI list for many breeds, but the challenge is that I don't know by what name they're most commonly called by French dog fanciers--for example, there are a lot of breeds with perfectly fine English names but that most English-speaking dog people still refer to using their native names in another language. So I'll try to tackle some more of it eventually, but it might still be out of line. We don't always even get the English list correct! (Plus my french is so miserably awful that I don't dare try to write any actual sentences.) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 04:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

=== linking to Wikipedias in other languages 2 ===

*At the moment [[:Category:Dog breeds]] links to a dozen of categories in other languages and [[List of dog breeds]] to about 10 other lists. For the upcomming languages I linked all available articles. What I learned from this:

**In the Japanease list the [[Dingo]] was listed as well. The category structure in other languages does not match '''en.wikipedia'''. The Dingo articles have been in different categories at the respective languages.

**With some help it should be possible to build equivalents to '''[[:Category:Canines]]''', '''[[:Category:Dogs]]''', '''[[:Category:Dog types]]''' (and maybe some others) too. '''[[:Category:Pets]]''' and '''[[:Category:Domesticated animals]]''' should be available too.

----

*At the moment the articles show (only) the FCI group and section. It would be a great, great help if the FCI number would be there too.

*[[Talk:Italian Greyhound]] shows a section [[Talk:Italian Greyhound#InterWiki's and links]]. I would go trough the FCI list and look for thouse links. They should be at the articles and will help to grow the number of French and Spanish dog articles. Maybe the FCI webmasters would add '''HTML Label names''' / '''[[Anchor|Anchors]]''' to the site in order to reference it easier.

*For each dog people from the Wikipedias related to the concerning country could / should be contacted in order to have articeles these languages too. In Italian for the [[Italian Greyhound]] and so on.

----

*Maybe we should write a few words about [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds]] (as a template?), let it translate to additional languages and place it in the '''[[wikipedia:Village pump|Village pumps - Cafés]]''' (or appropriate places as '''[[Wikipedia:Project|Projects]]'''), at the top of the available categories, lists and so on. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 19:15, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)

:I doubt that would be viewed well in general (if I understand what you are proposing)- imagine if ''every'' Wikiproject spamed all the village pumps in this way -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 19:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::There is still the oportunity to contact embassies linked to [[Wikipedia:Embassy]] or administrators at other Wikipedias to find initial atricles. At one of the ''nordic'' wikipedias I have seen an ''omnibus'' (made with a template) guiding you from one article of that subject to another. It was impressive. I need to find it ... Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 22:51, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)

::An example of Minibus navugation is shown at [[:da:Pattedyr]]. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 00:50, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

----

::'''Avoiding spaming:''' With minimal effort a template can be inserted in the user pages at en.wikipedia and at other languages too. ('''Note:''' To my knowledge templates can not be shared between languages, they have to be rebuild every time.) If you look at [[User:Gangleri/templates/accounts]] you can see where I am ''walking'' around. Wenn I edit in other languages I insert allways '''<nowiki>[[:en:User:Gangleri]] ...</nowiki>''' in the '''Edit summary:''' field. Then edits are not anonimuos and people can contact me if they have questions. This brings them to the user page where the project / the projects are mentioned. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 12:46, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

=== ambiguous InterWiki links ===

*Soemtimes it is complicated:

**[[:nl:Cocker spaniel]] is (was) not linked at all.

**[[American Cocker Spaniel|en:American Cocker Spaniel]] (in category breed) is linked to [[:de:Amerikanischer Cocker Spaniel]]

**The [[Disambiguation]] [[Cocker Spaniel|en:Cocker Spaniel]] (in both categories breeds and types) was linked to [[:de:English Cocker Spaniel]]. Last was linked to [[English Cocker Spaniel|en:English Cocker Spaniel]]. [[English Cocker Spaniel|en:English Cocker Spaniel]] was not linked at all.

**[[de:Cocker Spaniel]] is actualy a REDIRECT to [[de:English Cocker Spaniel]]. Will be fixed. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 00:19, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

== [[List of dog breeds]] ==

*Dear friends, I want to attract your attention about the German equivalent for [[List of dog breeds]] '''[[:de:Liste der Hunderassen]]'''. Sorry that I did not pay enough attention to this '''important information''' so far.

*The lists begins with an explanation about the '''notes''' used beside the breed names:

**'''Erklärung: "Rasse" (a/b/c)(B)'''

**'''Explanation: "Breed" (a/b/c)(P)''' where a = group / b = section / c = number / P article with picture.

*The list shows alternative names too and it should be possible to see if all redirects are available.

*It is mentioned at the Talk page that ''this is the only way to have an unique identification for the breeds''.

----

*Before reworking the page please let me explore

**the impact of '''multiple redirects''' (''from article '''a''' to article '''b''' to article '''c''' ...'') to visitors of the Wikipedia sites.

**how notes to ''non FCI breeds'' as '''Elo''' are made. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 01:34, 2004 Oct 9 (UTC)

:[[:Image:Vina vom Schloss Neubronn 2004-07-E-08-300.jpg|;-)]] [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 02:37, 2004 Oct 9 (UTC)

::I don't agree that we should match our page to this format. The information on the FCI breed categories is only part of the important category/group information needed. In the context of an English language encyclopaedia the groupings chosen by the various breed associations outside of the FCI are just as important (the Kennel Club (UK) and the US kennel clubs are not FCI affiliated remember). It would not be possible or appropriate to add the information on ''all'' breed associations to this list, and this information is better left in the articles.

::I also prefer our format for handling alternative names. Listing them within the body of the list, unlinked but with a "see <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki>" helps a reader to find the article they are looking for with ease. We have a lot of these alternative names missing at the moment - but the most important ones are being added as we go along. This is particularly important where different English speaking countries have different names for the same breed (American Cocker Spaniel is the example that springs to mind). There is never just one way to format an article, and what works for one language doesn't always work for another. I think in this case we should not make major changes to a format that works well for us. Regards -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 20:07, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::p.s. multiple redirects go only to the first link. So if <nowiki>[[article 1]] redirects to [[article 2]] which redirects to [[article 3]] </nowiki>- then clicking a link to 1 will take you to 2, and the redirect at 2 will do nothing. Hope that makes sense :) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]]

=== [[:fr:Liste des races de chiens]] ===

*Regarding [[:fr:Liste des races de chiens]] I just realised an issue common to many xx.wikipedia. See also [[:fr:Discuter:Liste des races de chiens]].

**First is that some in xx.wikipedia races are referenced without capitals (''or with postponed definitic articles as in Icelandic''). Please see [http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Liste_des_races_de_chiens&action=history history] to see the change(s). Who should make / verify the existens of all REDIRECT's for existing articles?

**Another question is what form to use for ''disambiguations''? Should ''Alsatian'' (referenced as <nowiki>[[Alsatian (chien)|Alsatian]]</nowiki>) be used or ''Alsatian (chien)''? Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 19:02, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

*P.S.: What about people not familiar with the differences to capital use writing [[Dog Breed]] or [[Dog Breeds]]? [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 19:46, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

:*Questions about foreign-language wikis are best asked on that language, not here; I am not familiar enough with the language & culture in general nor with the dog-related language and culture to be able to provide any useful input on something like whether the breed names (breed = ''race'' in French) should be capitalized. Likewise, calls for help (such as adding REDIRECTs in the fr wiki) should go in the language wiki, not here.

:*I'm not quite sure what you mean by "postponed definite articles" even after rereading your earlier post at [[Talk:Icelandic Sheepdog]]. Again, this looks like a foreign-language issue, not an English issue. The use of articles in English is confusing enough without asking whether the Icelandic language uses articles in the same way. (E.g., British English apprently uses "go to hospital" but American English uses "go to the hospital"... although in most places their uses of articles is the same.)

:*In most places, we want the text to look like part of the normal reading language and not like a more complex markup. For example, on the [[List of dog breeds]] page, we use <nowiki>[[Chihuahua (dog)|Chihuahua]]</nowiki>. It's not always done that way, though, for various reasons. In [[Chihuahua (disambiguation)]], all of the disambig items just use the <nowiki>[[Chihuahua (dog)]]</nowiki> form because that way it's clear that they're all different articles--but one other way to make the differences clear would be something like <nowiki>[[Chihuahua (dog)|Chihuahua dog]]</nowiki>, which is how it's done in [[Bobcat (disambiguation)]]; yet many disambigs completely hide the disambig'ing part, as in [[Brittany (disambiguation)]] where "Brittany" is the linked text in each definiton. (There are better examples of the latter somewhere because I know, I've worked on some, but I can't find 'em at the moment.)

:*Redirecting all forms of plurals and capitalizations... It might be a good idea to have a redirect for the plural of common terms (as there is for [[Dogs]]). When I put in a new breed, I usually check to see whether upper & lowercase versions of the breed name typed in the search box bring up the new page and then decide whether to make appropriate redirects. I don't think that we need redirects for common english terms or phrases, which are pretty much never capitalized (as in "dog breed"); we'd have to have redirs for every entry in wikipedia, which I don't think makes much sense. I don't think that most users will capitalize common English words.

:[[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 21:21, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::Thanks for your answer. What I was traying to say is that in Romanian, Iclandic and some other languages you would not say ''"the dog"'' or ''"those races"'', you will say somthing like ''"dog'''the'''"'' and ''"races'''those'''"''. I have also seen that ''"Wikipedia articles"'' are used together with "gramatical articles". I found ''"sagas'''the'''"'' and so on. But this is up to the decision of the other Wikipedias. It is only important to know this, if you search the ''"Wikipedia articles"'' equivalents in order to find them faster. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 02:55, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)

== JRTs and Dogs Actor Conventions and Stuff ==

Someone has recently edited the [[Jack Russell Terrier]] article, leading to some questions:

# What are the numbers and & for? What do they do?

# What is our convention for dog actors? What I mean is, do we write

*''Eddie'', played by Moose, in the [[sitcom]] ''[[Frasier]]''

*''Eddie'', played by ''Moose'', in the....

*"Eddie", played by Moose,...

*"Eddie", played by "Moose"...

*Eddie, played by '''Moose'''

etc., etc, and repeated for Lassie, Rex, Maximillian, Wishbone, Asta and a whole lotta dogs I love

[[User:Quill|Quill]] 00:03, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

# The &numbers; are [[unicode]]. Usually they are deliberate, such as the Chinese characters at the beginning of the [[Shih Tzu]] article, but they also sometimes appear as a browser foible when someone doesn't use plain text (for example, if they paste from Word and the text contains "smart quotes"). Personally - I usually remove them in this case and replace with the equivalent standard character. They just make the text more difficult to read during editing IMO (that's also the suggestion in the Manual of Style).

# I would say:

*Eddie, played by Moose, in the [[sitcom]] ''[[Frasier]]''

:The [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles)|Manual of Style]] says that TV program names should be in italics so that bit's clear. We don't use any special formatting for human actors names or their characters, so I don't think we need to for animals. I'll go ahead and make these changes in the article - let me know if you disagree anyone (or just revert me of course :) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 10:04, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== reorganisation ==

*What about moving ''General Strategy and Discussion forum'' to the top or making it like [[Template:Villagepumppages]] from [[Wikipedia:Village pump]]?

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/General|/General]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/General|talk]]

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Strategy|/Strategy]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Strategy|talk]]

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories|/Categories]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories|talk]]

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/International|/International]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/International|talk]]

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates|/Templates]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Templates|talk]]

**It will be very difficult to wath so many pages. A '''content''' would help. For example it is every time hard for me to find the participants list because I normaly use talk pages only.

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Needs verification|/Needs verification]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Needs verification|talk]] in order to have an central place to report issues

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Project map|/Project map]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Project map|talk]] similar to a site map at homepages (maybe combined with a project status)

***Note: I linked before many different articles as [[Cynology]], [[Fédération Cynologique Internationale|FCI]], ... Normaly I do not look at other categories then dog breeds of the project. At some point in time someone should care about this articles as well.

**todos, open issues, ...

:::votes?

**requested translations, requested pictures, ...

*It should be easyly to find a place for input from other languages. Example: [[:nl:Stabyhoun]] is available with a picture and linked to [[:de:Stabyhound]]. It is missing in ''en.wikipedia''. Same would apply with special local breeds from Japan etc.

*For newcomers it should be transparent who is skilled about what. Some have large knowledge about many of the pages of the project. How many are actualy so far? Others can just take care of technical issues (see below), some have sysop rights and so on.

::Project follows standard strategy for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProjects]]. We can add additional subcategories under General Strategy, like we added /Categories; for example, you could certainly add a /Languages subtopic. Think of the project pages as being like articles: they're supposed to represent what we do or what we know; the talk pages for each are where we're supposed to develop ideas about what we do or how. For example, the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories|/Categories]] page should state what we DO do about categories--that is, agreed-upon strategies (although it was originally phrased as "hey, how about this?"); its [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Categories|talk page]] should be where people say, um, no, that's not right, I think we do abc--or I think we should do xyz, and then we discuss it, and then when consensus occurs, it goes ontothe /Categories page.

::Certainly we could add descriptions to each of the links for the subtopics on the main project page. I'll do that now...

:::Oh, wow, I see what you mean. These pages are rife with discussion when they shouldn't be. Maybe they need some cleanup. Maybe I'll do that. Argh.

::[[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:55, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/Sister projects|/Sister projects]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/Sister projects|talk]] as the work of user [[:de:Benutzer:Caronna|de:Caronna]] at de:, [[:pl:Wikipedysta:AndrzejzHelu|pl:AndrzejzHelu]] at pl:, startup help provided [[User:Wcrowe|Dogfather]] at it:, es:, [[User:Elf|Elf]] at fr: ... My opinion is that working on the other Wikipedias is not a waste of time but an improuvment both to the knowledge about, diversity and quality of articles and contributions. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 12:29, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

**P.S.: The availability of local templates can be mentioned here. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 12:52, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)

**[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Dog breeds/What's new|/What's new]] [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds/What's new|talk]] to have a central place of the "'''headers'''" of new topics ...

----

''moved to [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dog_breeds/Categories#WDP feature request]]:''

<strike>*I think we should start a feature request about displaying the content of a category in the same manner as "My contributions". I mean as a list with newest changes displayed first. It should be possible also to display the content of (some) special pages (as categories and so on) with a '''Startig from''' and '''Until''' input mask. This would save both database resources and user resources as well. What is your opinion about this? Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 05:25, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)</strike>

== Wow! [[:he:Category:&#1499;&#1500;&#1489;&#1497;&#1501; ]] ==

*Halló! I have seen an InterWiki link and hope to find some people interested to come here. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 20:26, 2004 Oct 30 (UTC)

*List available at [[:he:&#1490;&#1494;&#1506;&#1497; &#1499;&#1500;&#1489;&#1497;&#1501;]]. [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 20:31, 2004 Oct 30 (UTC)

== Bichons ==

While making a minor edit to the Bichon Frise article, I noticed that the interwiki link to fi was actually for the Havanese, so I moved it over to that article. Then I decided to take a look at the foreign language article. The picture over there of a "[[:fi:Bichon_havannese|bichon havannese]]" looks more like a Coton de Tulear to me. Does anyone understand any of this language (I don't even know what it is)? And is that a Havanese, or a Coton? [[User:Lachatdelarue|Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]]]] 12:52, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:I have e-mailed user [[:fi:Käyttäjä:Ljeskola]] (found in the history of that article). It seams, that he / she has not made recent contributions and hope that the e-mail address is still valid and he / she understands English.

<br>

:[[:fi:Käyttäjä:Jean d'Arc]] making the categories added the links to fi:. I appologise, that I have not verified the links. Now both all links to [[Havanese]] and all links to [[Bichon Frisé]] are adjusted. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 02:47, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

== [[:is:]] List of dog breeds ==

*Dear friends, I made an equivalent for the [[List of dog breeds]] in Icelandic. At the moment (03:12, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)) it exists as a draft at [[:is:Notandi:Gangleri/drafts/list of dog breeds]].

*As has be seen in the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds#Bichons]] example errors can occur and I would like to reformat some of the lists to include additional information.

*To my oppinion there would be a greather help if beside the name of the breed in the language of that Wikipedia, the original (if available) should be mentioned as well together with the indication of the FCI catalogisation because it is used both in different countries and by different alphabets.

*The indication (P) picture would help editors to identify articles with pictures more easy.

*The indication about the talk page could show that information, as links to breeding standards, kennel clubs etc., <nowiki>ISBN's</nowiki> and so on are available already.

*I would be happy if I am allowed to insert to the English articles beside the ''Group'' and ''Section'' also the number. For [[Basset Hound]] it would be: Group 6 Section 1.3 (''not only 1'') N°163.

*Please let me know your opinion about this because I would like to rework the lists in the ofiicial languages of FCI: fr:, en:, de:, es: . Doing this I would like to put the links to existing FCI breeding standards to the talk pages. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 03:12, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

:*Mixed feelings about including all possible language variants of a breed's name on the breed's page in Alternative Names. Since this is an English wiki, having the names used (and spelled) by English speakers makes the most sense. Although I see that sometimes for example Chinese character representations of dog names are appearing in some articles. I haven' t been removing those even though those are *clearly* not from english-speaking dog people! But I don't think you can say "use the original name" because there are going to be disputes about what the "original" name was, especially when the breed is older & is hard to pinpoint to a specific ___location. So it would be hard to draw the line as to where to stop listing alternative names. Maybe we shouldn't even try to--and just list all variants that we come across anyway. I dunno.

:*But if you're talking about doing stuff like this on ''List of dog breeds'':

::* Afganhundur _ (Afghan Hound) (FCI 10/1/228) (M) Afghanistan

::Uh-uh, I don't like it, it's way too cluttered. The FCI # and other club designators are on the breed pages, as is the likely country of origin. And it would be impossible to decide which alternative breed names to list here. Reader should be able to simply scan for the name of the breed they're looking for in a vertical list, not wade through all that extra info. That's why we've got alternative names often listed in the proper alphabetical place in the list (e.g., Alsation and German Shepher Dog). Maybe if it was in a table so it was easier to ignore the extra stuff...but then you're maintaining all of that data *twice*, onece on the breed page & once on the list. I don't much like that idea--everything we already have it a lot of work.

::In any event, our main target audience is *not* you and me who are editors and trying to maintain a lot of complex info--it's the casual user who knows the name of a breed and wants to find out more about it. They probably don't even know what FCI is, let alone a bunch of obscure numbers. I mean, that line looks like gobbledygook to me when I scan it, even thought when I put on my thinking cap and read it slowly I think I can parse what it is that it's trying to say.

:*I think that putting the FCI number is fine. Maybe format as:

::Group 1 Section 1.3 #294 (let's not use any weird/special characters like you used for No).

:* I'm still having trouble understanding why an article would link to the talk page--talk page isn't part of the article name space, it's for discussions about the article. And the FCI links should link to the breed standards, as they do now, not to some other ___location within wikipedia, IMHO. But maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're asking.

:*I'm not sure about a picture indicator. You're saying put something like:

::*Affenpinscher (P)

::*Afghan Hound (P)

::*Aidi

::? I'm not convinced. I don't think "P" would be the right thing--it's too nebulous an indicator. ("What the heck does 'P' mean anyway, Marsha?") But I don't know what else could be used. They could always just go to the [[Wikipedia:List of images/Nature/Animals/Dogs]] to see what images exist.

::[[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:35, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

<br>

:::Thank you for the detailed answer. I realised that the the de:, da:, is: maight be overloaded with information. It is hard to have a balance between all the different needs. I also tray to find out what could be learned from the dog breed project for other Wikipedias and '''what information would be helpfull for English visitors''' for example in an Italian, Spanish and so on Wikipedia. I started two weeks ago with non latin Wikipedias as Japanease and Hebrew. Belive me it is tricky to realise that articles about Griffin, Boxer, Pointer, Afgan are only disambiguations and to pay attention that you see a redirect from an ''old'' list and to fix it.

:::Listening to many / all alternative names for any of the Wikipedias is not a good idea either. But I think it would be a great help to recognise somthing in a ''foreign'' list, also for visitors from outside en.wikipedia. I know only two Finnish words and would be lost without help. Listening the FCI name is a help which is there without beeng forced to ask sombody or to open tens of articles. This is why the is: list shows the ''original'' FCI names when for the main aricle an Icelandic word is used as ''Bendir'' for ''Pointer''.

:::At [[:de:]] we are thinking to show also the disambiguations as [[Chihuahua]] ([[Chihuahua (dog)|dog]]). It is up to the visitor to choose what he wants to see.

:::(P) from picture was introduced by user [[:de:Benutzer:Caronna|de:Caronna]] to track his ''own'' work over two months. It is / was '''only an indication''' and these schould be used carefully. If only 20 pictures are missing it is fine to have a known central place to list them and to <strike>strike</strike> those solved in common. But again information should be found quickly without opening the list with all pictures and search there.

:::The indication to the talk page is olso a working help intended for the other Wikipedias. I do not know any efficient way to have an overview about talks for 200 articles. This is difficult to remember and if you make a two, three day brake you will probably not know where to start.

:::Group 1 Section 1.3 #294 . Thanks! Can we abbreviate it in some way?

:::A final remark: The list (the lists if we think about a list by countries) can not compete with database implementations as done on many dog breed sites. To find a compromise beteween simple enumerations and sofisticated representations is not easy and I am convinced that we can agree on some basic roles. It would be nice to have these basic ''features'' in the in other Wikipedia lists to. This only preserves the common look and feel of the Wikipedias. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 10:42, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

I agree with Elf on all this. To be more specific:

*I don't think we need to add all the information about image availability, FCI category and so on - that's what the articles are for. The dog breed list should be as simple and as useable ''for the reader'' as possible.

*As Elf says, the talk pages are simply for discussing aspects of the articles as needed, they not part of the article and shouldn't be linked to from the article (except as the usual link) or from the main breed list.

*I am not sure if the suggestion for adding the FCI number is to the individual articles or to the dog breeds list - if it's to the articles, then I think that's a good idea.

The important thing to remember, as Elf says, is that we are writing for our readers - not for people making interwiki links. I think cooperation between Wikipedias is important, so I don't want to discourage you, but each is also an individual encyclopaedia - which shouldn't try to be exactly the same (articles are not usually direct translations of each other for example, although sometimes that's a good starting point). Perhaps one way of gathering the information you are looking for is to make a page in your user space or on a sub page of the wikiproject and keep a list there. You could link to it from this talk page and from the talk page of the list of dog breeds - perhaps right at the top so it doesn't get lost in the conversation. -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 19:56, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:Yes, I want to make clear that I meant that I felt that the FCI number could go in the breed table, not on the [[list of dog breeds]] page. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 20:46, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:Another thing--you said you were considering doing disambigs like this: [[Chihuahua]] ([[Chihuahua (dog)|dog]])--I find that *very* confusing. If we're talking about a dog, I'd expect Chihuaha to go to the chihuahua-the-dog link; if "dog" were a separate word, I'd expect it to go to the "dog" article. I would never, ever expect to go to the city in Mexico in that context. If you really want to let them go to the city or the breed, the reader will likely be much less confused with "[[Chihuahua|Chihuahua (city)]] or [[Chihuahua (dog)]]". [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 21:44, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Anchors ==

*I would like to let you know about the usage of [[Anchor|anchors]] ([[Wikipedia:Hyperlink]]) as explained in [[meta:Help:Link#Linking to a page]]. I added <nowiki><div id="Contents"></div></nowiki> at the top. Please tray and click at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds#Contents]]. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 03:17, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

::This is probably better than linking by subsection name, because if an editor changes the subsection name (which often happens) then the link just goes back to the top of the article, whereas having an explicit link name coded in place would more likely ensure that the link remains good. But I don't know how often we really want to be linking to things that aren't subhead-level. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

----

*An example of a greather list is available at [[:is:Notandi:Gangleri/test/Snið:Flokkatré]]. This list is showing the three of Icelandic categories. Please look also at the notes starting from [[:is:Notandaspjall:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason#comments_regarding_Sni.C3.B0:Flokkatr.C3.A9|Notandaspjall:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason#comments regarding Snið:Flokkatré]] to [[User talk:Patrick#Anchor Wikipedia:Hyperlink]]. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 09:43, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

==Breeds by countries==

I have thought from time to time about whether a list of breeds by country would be of interest to the general public. I think it would be, actually. I haven't done anything about it because it would be so hard to do. For example, the various serbian/balkan dogs--where would you put them without upsetting someone? "Balkans" isn't really the name of a country, it's a region. Likewise with Bichons--"Mediterranean area" would have to be the country of origin, esp. since there are some citations of origins in France or Spain or Italy--or would we list it in all places just to be safe?

And would you use the *current* country name or the name at the estimated time of origin? We could go by the FCI's country selections whenever a breed is recognized by them, but there are whole trainloads of dogs not recognized by the FCI. In other words, it would be a hard list to come up with, but it might be interesting.

I'm also not sure what the article name would be--perhaps we could do it by having a different Category for each country (sort of like there are for Writers by Country and such)--and, heck, surely there have got to be getting on close to 1000 breeds out there, so some of the categories might be lightly populated, but others would be quite full. Just sort of thinking out loud now, and it might also addresss some of what Gangleri's trying to do, too. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::Personaly I think searching for dogs by countries / regions could be done having both categories for countries where more then '''n''' dogs come from and a list where the others are listed and the categories mentioned. This keeps the list small enough. It is also a good starting point to check for dogs in Wikipedias for that language.

::[[Akita Inu]] could be in [[:Category:Japan]] same as [[Icelandic Sheepdog]] is in [[:Category:Iceland]]. If other people decide about the category system for animals from that country they can move them. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 12:35, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

:::I actually started this in October; meant to speak to it but maybe I never did? Just did a quick check and I have three lists written, List of Spanish, Japanese and Korean dog breeds. I started with those because it was clear that there were breeds developed in those countries but without worldwide recognition. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==New dog care wikibook==

Much to my horror (because of how much time I already spend in wikiP ;-) ), there is a new Wikibook: [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dog_Care Dog care]. I filled in the article on [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dog_Care:Obesity obesity] and used a couple of my & sannse's breed photos as good examples--now we need examples of pathetic overweight dogs (none every show up at my agility trials, so I'll have to sneak up on my unsuspecting friends' dogs)! [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 18:34, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::I'm pathetically overweight. Perhaps I could photoshop a dog's head on my body. ''Imagine this man were a dog. Don't do this.''[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 22:15, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:::Now *that* idea is pathetic. :-) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 01:30, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::::Ha, ha, ha! That ''is'' funny! On a serious note, I have never explored Wikibooks and I'm staying right away, I spend too much time here as it is. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 02:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Janus lists of dog breeds ==

*Dear friends, please take a look at both [[User:Gangleri/tests/list]] and [[User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance)]].

*It was tricky to make this [[Janus (mythology)|Janus]] list as you can read at [[User talk:Patrick#Janus article]].

*I invested so much efforts on this issue because I beleive, that information is spread over to many places. There is no immediate need to implement it because a template can be used in actual Wikimedia version only for times in an article. However this will change with version 1.4. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 12:24, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

**Interesting. What we really would want in an ideal world is something like the little arrows or plus/minus signs next to lists in more robust user interfaces (such as Windows or Mac OS) where you click on it and it provides an expanded view of the thing you're looking at and click again to rehide the detail. We're not asking for a lot-- ;-) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 16:42, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

----

*For different participants in a project beside the "''normal''" list [[User:Gangleri/tests/list]] alternave maintenance lists can be defined easyly:

**[[User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance)]] (based on common consensus)

**[[User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance g)]] (very complex). Please note that only the third line (refering to [[Pug]]) provides full functionality and that the list (with more then four entries) can be implemented only starting with version 1.4. [[Bugzilla:839]] ralates to it. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 09:34, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

:::You're not kidding ' very complex'! My brain couldn't take that second list all in. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 20:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

----

*'''[[User:Gangleri/tests/list (maintenance) IMSoP]]''' is getting closer to my ideas about a 'complex' maintenance list. '''Descrtiption:'''

**"h" = '''''H'''istory''

**"l" = ''What '''l'''inks here''

**"r" = '''''R'''elated changes''

**"e" = '''''E'''dit''

**"'''T'''" = '''''T'''alk''

**"c" = Purges the '''''c'''ache'' while reloading the page. This allows updating of the page without changing / editing it. You can use "'''''action=purge'''''" if you change a template or if you define a category used in some pages (articles, categiries ...) without having the category defined. Normaly the link to that category would show in read unless you edit the article / the articles again.

*Hope that this descrtiption helps. (I could not find a better word for [[de:Legende (Karte)]].)

*Because the "''appropriate''" google links would not work anyway, I placed some sample links at the top of the list. Normaly I have up to 15 Internet Explorer windows open. One for the list, one for Google, some for the articles I link together, some for my "''stack''", one navigation file from my local PC and so on. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 01:35, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)

== KEYWORDS ==

*Dear friends, I submitted [[bugzilla:846]] named: '''feature request: control of meta name="KEYWORDS" content="..."'''. This is an issue discused in the past. Hope that somebody from the developers would do somthing about it. My question here is about your opinion concerning the maximal number of keywords which should be supported. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] 18:05, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Shortcuts|Wikipedia:Shortcut]] for this project ==

*Halló! I posted a question at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject#Wikipedia:Shortcuts for projects]].

*What would be the most suitable shortcut?

*'''WP:WPbreeds''' is misleading because cats, horses etc. are breeds as well. What about '''WP:WPdogs'''? Regards [[User:Gangleri|[[{{ns:User}}:Gangleri|Gangleri]] | [[{{ns:User_talk}}:Gangleri|T]] | [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:User talk:Gangleri|action=history}} Th]]] 02:08, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

:"WP:WPdogs" sounds good to me -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 12:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::yeppers--me too [[User:Quill|Quill]] 00:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::ditto. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

::I am happy about your answers and posted [[User talk:Ram-Man#Shortcuts for WikiProjects]]. Regards [[User:Gangleri|Gangleri]] | [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:User talk:Gangleri|action=history}} Th] | [[{{ns:User_talk}}:Gangleri|T]] 16:27, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)

==Quality Control transitioning quickly into Poodle hybrids discussion==

[http://www.techcentralstation.com/111504A.html Tech Central Station] yesterday published an article written by Robert McHenry, Former Editor in Chief of Encyclopædia Britannica, with his views on Wikipedia.

I agree with some of his arguments, notably the danger of erroneous, barely legible, or overly detailed information creeping into the Wikipedia. While I think this is a bigger problem for articles of a controversial nature, even within our own project (dog breeds) I have seen some examples.

The problem is becoming evident on the [[Poodle]] page, specifically in the Hybrid section. Like many popular breeds, Poodles have been crossed with any number of other breeds, sometimes on purpose and sometimes accidentally. Is it really necessary to list every different combination which may be in existence?

Growing up, my canine friend was part Poodle, part Spitz. He was a great family pet, but apart from this mundane fact, his pedigree was hardly notable. Looking at the list, I see that we have a Cockapoo and a Spoodle, both of which are described as being Poodle/Cocker Spaniel crosses. Oh, what fun Mr. McHenry would have with this list. What’s next, the Labradobradoodle (Lab/Doberman/Poodle)? Or maybe the Puliwoolipoo (Puli/Wolfhound/Poodle)? How about the Spinonebaloneytollypoo (Spinone/Balognese/Toller/Poodle)?

Am I being too much of a curmudgeon?[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 20:30, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:Are you? Not in my little opinion. This is one of my big Wikipeeves, articles ruined with minutia that render them unbalanced (i.e. one section suddenly contains incredible amounts of detail, another has just one 'bare bones' sentence), and articles in which the author has placed one or two examples suddenly added to so that there's a list where an article should be. I agree with you entirely when it comes to the [[poodle]] article, which was literate and well-written in its original form, or at least in its orginal form with a few tweaks, which I think is the Wikipedia's greatest strength. We should probably rethink why [[pudelpointer]], which is a recognized breed is in the same list with [[scottiepoo]], of which I've never heard?

:Maybe we could have a [[dog show]] for a pomeranian/collie/Irish Wolfhound/Corgi/labradoodle/Bosanski Ostrodlaki Gonic Barak? It would be a ‘Polllie-woli-doodle-odla’ Day!

:Thanks for the link to that article, which I'll read, and for the chuckle, which I can always use!

:[[User:Quill|Quill]] 02:22, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There are also recurring tracks in the Fire Emblem series. The most frequently used is the "Fire Emblem Main Theme" which is played at some point during each game. Its use is particularly varied, as it is sometimes used as the title screen theme, while in ''Path of Radiance'', the song isn't heard until the very end of the game, when each character's performance is ranked. Another track that is frequently remixed is a character recruitment theme entitled "Together We Ride," although it is not used in every game. Since ''[[Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu]]'', battle themes of previous Fire Emblem games have been remixed as arena battle themes. Similar rearranging appears in other circumstances, as well; for example, the musical score for the trial maps in ''Path of Radiance'' was originally the music score for Chapter 10 of ''Seisen no Keifu''.

::I fear that I am probably guilty of adding minutiae from time to time. However, in my defense, I do try to add only that which I feel is important, and I try my best to get it to flow with the original article. Yet, I'm beginning to think that I would like to remove some of those edits, as they are probably not as important as I originally thought.[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 03:37, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Other media==

:I've thought for a while that we might actually want a "poodle hybrids" article, but haven't thought so so firmly that I've actually done it. I think we might want entries (or redirs) for many of these mixes because they so often appear in pets-for-sale listings and people might want to know what they are. Most other breed mixess don't cause the coining of names quite as much (e.g., "lab mix", "shepherd/chihuahua", etc.) so it hasn't been an issue.

*In [[1995]], an [[anime]] [[OVA]] (co-produced with [[KSS (company)|KSS]]) was produced and released; it was closely based on the first three acts of the very first game in the series or more specifically, the remake contained in ''Monshō no Nazo''. See also ''[[Fire Emblem (anime)]]''.

:I really enjoyed polllie-woli etc--thanks for the big laugh! [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:16, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*Fire Emblem The Best Volume One was a video game music sound-track released on April 25, 1997 by Nintendo corporation (serial# PSCN-5058~9).

::I went ahead and added a poodle hybrids page. I also edited the Poodle article, fixing some of the things that were bothering me. I hope the edits meet with everyone's approval, but if they don't, I'm not going to fight about it. [[Grace Hopper]] used to say that it was easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission, so there you have it.[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 16:31, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Trivia==

:As they say, '''be bold'''. Looks good. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 21:17, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*A title listed as "AKANEIA" in the debug mode of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' suggests that an arena based upon ''Fire Emblem'' was under development, but no real map data exists and players often end up fighting against Marth and Roy in Hyrule Temple. If Marth is unlocked and all human players hold either L or R while selecting Hyrule Temple, a remixed version of Fire Emblem's main theme and the recruiting theme will play instead of its original music. The song may also play randomly if Marth is unlocked.

*In another Intelligent Systems game, ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]'', there is a minor character in Petalburg that raves about his favorite video games when spoken to. The first game he talks about is ''[[Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken|Fire Emblem]]''.

::Now here's a bit of a radical one... what about merging all the text from ''all'' the doodle/poo articles into the new [[Poodle hybrids]] page. Then making all the old pages redirects. On the plus side I think this would balance and clarify our coverage. On the down side, it would be unpopular with some contributors. What do you think? -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] [[User talk:Sannse|(talk)]] 22:35, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC) (polllie-woli... heh!)

*''[[Fire Emblem: Monshou no Nazo]]'' is the only Fire Emblem game to appear in [[Famitsu]]'s 2006 Top one hundred games list. Famitsu readers voted it the number sixty-eighth game of all time. It was also among the first titles released as a Virtual Console title at the launch of the Japanese region Wii Shop Channel.

:Hmmm, interesting thought. I'm going to ponder for a while before offering an opinion. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 22:45, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*The Nintendo DS game ''[[Daigasso! Band-Brothers]]'' features the Fire Emblem theme as a song.

::I like the idea of merging all the hybrids to one page, but as you say, it won't be popular.[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 00:55, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*Fire Emblem characters are usually [[right-handed]]. One exception is that Sothe from ''Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance'' and ''Fire Emblem: The Goddess of Dawn'' is [[left-handed]], according to the official artwork.{{Fact|date=February 2007}}

:::I like the idea too. Would make the job of editing out unsubstantiated or biased material much easier for Dog Project contributors--or would it? We may have a lot of -oodle and -poo owners placing stubs or substubs at the Redirects. It might be all right if we make no judgements on the various SWFs and keep the sections really factual and neutral. We might consider leaving [[labradoodle]] as it is just because of the amount of hassle we'll get if we don't. Not sure, but would vote 'yea' at present. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 03:00, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*A red-headed girl named Anna makes appearances in numerous games in the series. Although she isn't an actual member of any ''Fire Emblem'' cast, she generally appears in games when the player is about to suspend game data or serves as the tutorial narratress.

::After discovering the [[Pooter]] article, I'm more & more in favor of a single article for the off-the-wall hybrids. But cockapoo & labradoodle seem to be so common (and have been for years) that they might still deserve their own. (E.g., "cockapoo" is actually in Webster's with an origin date of 1970; "labradoodle" isn't but it seems to be quite commonly used in the want ads around here.) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 20:48, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

==See also==

:::As you say, cockapoo is pretty common, and there are a lot of people trying to get the labradoodle to breed true, i.e., it is a serious breeding project. But listing every possible mix that exists is just ridiculous. Pooter? They must be joking.[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 22:12, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::::Just saw Pooter. This is out of control and must be stopped. I need a brandy....[[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:25, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::::Would that be a [[Briard|BRiard]] crossed with a [[Newfoundland (dog)|NewfoundlAND]] and a [[husky|huskY]]? [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:11, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:::::Hee, hee--good one, Elf. [[User:Quill|Quill]] 09:08, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::::I took action on the Pooter thing. Somebody will probably get mad, but this is an encyclopedia people, not a blog.[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 03:56, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

::::(Edit)The more I think about it, the more I think ''we been had''. It was probably someone's idea of a joke. Simple vandalism. How does one get a page deleted?[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 04:25, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:::::Agreed. I 'googled' it too. I'm a sucker....[[User:Quill|Quill]] 09:08, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:[[Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion#VfD_footer|How to get an article deleted]]. [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 00:05, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

*[[List of character classes#Fire Emblem|List of character classes]]

==New [[breed registry]] article==

*[[Table of Fire Emblem characters]]

I started this article. I'm not a real expert on this subject, so any corrections & additional information would be very helpful. Go to it! [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 20:48, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

*[[Fan translation]]

*[[Nintendo Wars]]

*[[Tear Ring Saga]]

==References==

== Missing Images ==

{{Reflist}}

==External links==

Er...do we really need that gigantic blue template that [[user:FirstPrinciples|FirstPrinciples]] has felt the need to go adding to several dog TALK pages? [[User:Quill|Quill]] 21:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

<!---Please don't add your own links without first discussion it on the talk page. Thanks.--->

{{portal|Nintendo|Wikitendo2.svg}}

{{wikiquote}}

*[http://www.fire-emblem.com Official US ''Fire Emblem'' website]

*[http://www.intsys.co.jp/game/fe/index.html Intelligent Systems' official ''Fire Emblem'' website (Japanese)]

*[http://www.nintendo.co.jp/fe/index.html Nintendo of Japan's official ''Fire Emblem'' website (Japanese)]

*[http://eg.nttpub.co.jp/fe/ Official Trading Card Game website (Japanese)]

*{{moby game|id=-group/fire-emblem-series|name=The ''Fire Emblem'' series}}

*[http://eaichu250.superbusnet.com/ English Fire Emblem Documentary]

{{Fire Emblem}}

:My question is: has there really been a request for more poodle pictures? And who is requesting them?[[User:Wcrowe|The Dogfather]] 03:04, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[[Category:Fire Emblem|*]]

== [[Pooter]] ==

[[Category:Video game franchises]]

[[de:Fire Emblem]]

Okay, Elf, I followed that votes for deletion thingy. Have no idea if I did it right. (Got lost on the VfD page, scrolled down and there's instruction after instruction...when it got to the part about putting the new date's section in...well, that was it for me....) [[User:Quill|Quill]] 23:36, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[[es:Fire Emblem]]

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[[it:Fire Emblem]]

[[nl:Fire Emblem]]

[[ja:ファイアーエムブレム]]

[[pt:Fire Emblem]]

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