Talk:SpaceX reusable launch system development program/GA1: Difference between revisions

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I'll take this on in the next few days. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 22:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

====Initial review punch list====

*Intro seems a bit verbose. Perhaps another picture of the Grasshopper - to illustrate the concept of a rocket landing - would help?

**Re: Grasshopper photo: I very much agree. Have been endeavoring to find a Wiki-licensable photo of Grasshopper flying for 18 months now. See extensive discussion on Talk page. [[User:Huntster]], who is both very wiki-photo knowledgeable and an Admin on the English Wikipedia tells us that there simply are not any wiki-allowable images that anyone has yet found of Grasshopper in flight. (although there are lots of good Youtube videos released by the company). I've wondered whether perhaps a fair use criteria might work, but editors strong in wiki-photo fu have told me no dice. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 01:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

***{{Yellow tick}}—Hey [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]. See what I said before (above) about the challenges of obtaining a WP-license-able photo, and let me know if you are okay with this for a GA review. The editor who provided me the rather strict interpretation of ''fair use'' and the WP license practices did allow that some other editors might not take as hard a line on it as he does. However, I've not gone and tried to pursue a consensus from a larger group on this. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

****I'm afraid I don't know much about image licensing. It doesn't actually need any images at all for the purpose of a GAR, but they do make it easier to understand. Ideally, somebody would pay for me to attend a launch and I'd take a few snaps :-) [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 21:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

*****{{question}}—Oh, that might work. We have a LOT of photos of the <u>launches</u>. Anytime a rocket launches from a US government leased facility (such as the pads that SpaceX leases from the US Air Force), the USG takes lots of photos, and they are released under quite acceptable licenses. So we could definitely get more of those; there is one in the article already.

:::::The problem is our EXTREMELY limited photoset from anything at all related to the <u>reusable technology</u> (e.g., Grasshopper v1.0 flying, or of the landing-over-water tests). These are private, SpaceX takes lots of photos; releases a very few to the press, but none with Creative Commons-acceptable licenses.

:::::So do you think we should just insert another photo of the rocket launching? (beyond the one we have in the article now?) None of that is reusable tech tests etc. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 22:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

**Re: tightening up the prose: The article just went through a [[WP:GOCE]]. But one idea I had is that we could delete the following sentence from the second paragraph, as it is only summarizing details presented in the article: "Eight low-altitude flight tests were made in 2012 and 2013. The first booster return controlled-descent test from high-altitude was made in September 2013, and a second test is planned for March 2014.[2][3]" Would you think that would help? [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 03:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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**I would tend to agree, but what is there is a result of somewhat involved Talk page consensus; moreover, the original source only gives the velocities in Mach numbers, which are approximate, and so we felt we ought to leave those Mach nos. in the encyclopedia prose. And generally, in spaceflight related articles, we give velocities in both SI units and in English measurment units for a global audience. Do you think the GA criteria would trump the Talk page consensus? I would be happy to revisit the topic with the previous discussants. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 01:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

***If there is a local consensus to have it one way, I see no problem with that. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 21:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

****Cool, then that's {{Approved}} by you. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

*"It said this was an approximation." - this single sentence looks a bit odd. It also makes the use of refs 6 and 7 a bit unclear.

**{{Fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 22:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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******That's a good solution. I wasn't sure what the standard is for that sort of thing (leave the link? take it out? what sort of note to leave? etc.) I'm very glad that you, as an experienced GA reviewer, knew what to do with that.

::::::In the meantime, I think I still have a couple more of the deadlinks to crawl through, and a few more "in process" items to work. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 21:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

::::::*{{Yellow tick}}—[[User:Jamesx12345|James]], I've looked and believe there are no more dead links. But I don't know how to use ''checklinks'', so if you would please take a look at this and then let us know if you are good to go. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

:::::::*[https://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webchecklinks.py?page=SpaceX_reusable_launch_system_development_program#view:0.1.1.1.1.1 Checklinks appears to be fine.] [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 21:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

::::::::*Cool, then that's another one {{Approved}} by you. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

*"first stage is now being flight tested" - very liable to dating. Given that you and some other editors have focused on this article for a fair length of time, it should be OK, but an {{tl|As of}} or {{tl|Update after}} could be used.

**{{Fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 22:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

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*"reusable rocket system that will be powered by LOX/methane, "an evolution of SpaceX's Falcon 9 booster", and reiterated SpaceX's commitment to develop a vertical landing breakthrough technology." - "reusable rocket system to be powered by LOX/methane, "an evolution of SpaceX's Falcon 9 booster", and reiterated SpaceX's commitment to develop a vertical landing technology." - update tense, rm "breakthrough" - don't think it's needed.

**This one is a bit more complex; principally because it is not a second LOX/methane technology; it is a second ''reusable rocket system'', and this one will be ''both'' much larger, and also will be powered by a different fuel (LOX/methane rather than LOX/RP-1 as in the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy). At any rate, I've made a stab at making it more clear. See what you think. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 22:54, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

***{{Yellow tick}}—[[User:Jamesx12345|James]]—Please me us what you think here. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

****Much better than what I suggested (which isn't very clear on reading it again). [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 21:48, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

*****Cool, one more {{Approved}} by you. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

*"24-story" - this needs a source, preferably for the height in metres. In terms of buildings, the spelling should be storey.

**{{fixed}}. Added a source, and eliminated the "24-story" reference completely. BTW, in American English, the height of buildings is spelled "story", whereas it is "storey" in British and Canadian English. There is one other reference to "12-story" in the article (about an earlier Grasshopper test flight). Let me know if you think it might be better to eliminate that arcane sort of linear measurement as well now that I took out the "24-story" term. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 00:15, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

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*"and upon introducing space launch customers to the idea of putting a payload in space with a used stage" - quite colloquial "and upon space launch customers being willing to put a payload in space with a used stage" is a bit clearer, maybe.

**{{in process}}—not quite sure how to reword this... The idea in the source is that this is ''very'' new thinking to the sorts of large customers who might buy launch services, and that customers may very well not warm to the idea of utilizing a "used" booster to carry their precious cargo to orbit ('they've never done it that way before' ... it has never been an option since government-designed space programs, in all nation-states that have gotten to space, have only built expendable systems, and even with that, they can only get a very small percentage of the liftoff weight (something like 3%) to orbit. This really is a huge paradigm shift for the industry, '''if''' SpaceX are even successful in getting this expensive project to work at all. At any rate, that is the idea behind "introducing space launch customers to the idea of putting a payload in space with a used stage" -- but I'm thinking on some ways to rephrase that.

***{{Yellow tick}}—[[User:Jamesx12345|James]]—please note my comment above and see what you think now. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

****It looks OK now on second reading. If anything, I think more could be made of concerns about reliability (have any agencies said anything for example? I don't think the JWST would go up on a used booster, for example.)

*****Cool, one more down. {{Approved}} by you. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

*"If all aspects of the test program go very well, and if a customer is interested, SpaceX said in September 2013 that the first reflight of a Falcon 9 booster stage could be done in late 2014." - "in September 2013, SpaceX said that if all aspects of the test program are successful and a customer is interested, the first reflight of a Falcon 9 booster stage could be done in late 2014."

**{{Fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 19:18, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

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*The '''Technical Feasibility''' section is a bit odd. I think it would be better if it were integrated into '''Technologies''', with the problems and solutions in one place.

**{{in process}} Two comments for now: 1) I believe the difficulty of this undertaking is of such a magnitude, and so many have thought quite impossible, that it probably does warrant a section on ''Technical feasibility'' to address this. Moreover, while this sort of return/landing and reuse have been hypothesized for decades in Science Fiction and a few academic papers, none of the current space programs have even attempted full and rapid reuse. 2) Having said that, I do not believe the prose that was in the section adequately covered the problem nor the topic. I have made several edits to broaden the explication of the problem, and how SpaceX has (to date) only a theoretical understanding that it can be done, and may be economic to do so. I will look to make a few more changes here in the coming days. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 17:03, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

***{{Yellow tick}}—[[User:Jamesx12345|James]]—Okay, I've made a few more changes. See what you think. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 21:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

****{{question}} I think maybe you didn't see this one yesterday. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

*The bullet points in '''Test program''' are also inconsistent re. full stops.

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 17:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

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**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 18:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

*"Falcon 9 test plan calls for the" - does this need to be updated?

**{{Fixed}} &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 20:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

:::I did some further copyediting on this. Since it is an introductory paragraph to the section, I think it best for it to describe the general test plan for these post-mission booster descent tests, not just any one particular test. The test history is better covered in the paragraphs below the introduction. See what you think. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

*{{cn}} needs addressed at the end of that paragraph.

**<s>{{Fixed}}. I just reused the reference at the beginning of the next paragraph, since that whole paragraph about that very flight. &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 20:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)</s> Never mind, I didn't actually fix this, I fixed something else instead:P. Sorry. &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 20:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

***{{Fixed}}—for real, this time. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 20:57, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

*"the booster stage attitude was reversed" - also confusing.

**{{Fixed}} &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 20:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

*"With the many..." - quite colloquial.

**{{Fixed}} &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 20:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

*The '''See also''' section would ideally be removed if a good way to link to [[Falcon (rocket family)]] can be found.

**{{Fixed}} &mdash; [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]_{<small>[[User_talk:Gopher65|<fontspan colorstyle="color:green;">talk</fontspan>]]</small>} 19:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll wait for you to make any changes you feel are necessary and look at it again in a few days. Sorry for the delay in completing this review - I've been quite heavily occupied for the past few weeks. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 18:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

::Thanks very much [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]! Glad you made it through the entire article. I'll get back to addressing your review comments starting today.

::In the meantime, I see that another editor has helpfully joined in to help get the article improved to GA quality. Thanks [[User:Gopher65|Gopher65]]! [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

{{outdent}} [[User:Jamesx12345|James]] — I believe that that we have addressed 100% of the items you identified above. I've left 4 or 5 questions for you as marked by the YELLOW CHECKMARKS: {{Yellow tick}}, like this. See what you think.

Please address the old items in the list above, but add any new items you see below, as the long list is getting rather hard to navigate. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 21:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

====Continuation, after the initial "punch list" was worked through====

Since this list is kind of long and hard to navigate, I'm starting a new section for ''new'' items that you or Gopher65 see that need attention. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 21:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

:James, I have tidied up the list above, trying to ensure I've not missed anything. I believe there are just two questions for you now, both marked with the {{question}} symbol. [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 16:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

::Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've watched the videos, and admit that it is pretty cool. Launch 8 especially is pretty spectacular from above. I'm afraid I can't finish tonight, and probably not tomorrow, but will definitely get all your comments replied by Saturday. Sorry. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 23:22, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

:::No worries. That will be fine. (and BTW, just late yesterday US time, SpaceX and NASA announced that the CRS-3 flight would be delayed at least a couple of weeks, so the second high-altitude, booster controlled-descent flight test won't occur any earlier than March 30th.) [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 03:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

===Part II===

I'll just look through it again since it has changed [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SpaceX_reusable_launch_system_development_program&diff=599685975&oldid=597323556 quite a bit]. This review shouldn't take long. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 12:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

*A larger family photo would be nice - maybe 250px or something.

**{{in process}} I'm having a bit of trouble with the resize parameter; it is dropping the image caption whenever I replace "thumb" with "250px". I asked for some help. — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:51, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

***Fixed. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 15:57, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*"Restarts are required at both supersonic..." - perhaps a quick note about why there are two restarts?

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:51, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*"throttleable rocket engine technology" - this bullet is quite short, and also uncited. An explanation (or even a definition) would make it more useful.

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*"order of magnitude" could be linked (just for the definition.)

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*"However, even if SpaceX is successful with the technology..." - that's a really fascinating point.

**Thanks. {{done}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*I would spell out the full name of the [[Tsiolkovsky rocket equation]] - it's quite well known.

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

*"...nearly precludes it." - this would need a ref in this form.

**{{fixed}} — [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 04:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy now that I've read through all of it, and that it meets the GA criteria. Thanks for being much quicker at responding to my comments than I was to yours. [[User:Jamesx12345|James]]^x[[User talk:Jamesx12345|12345]] 16:05, 18 March 2014 (UTC)