Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ring (programming language): Difference between revisions
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===[[:Ring (programming language)]]===▼
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was '''delete'''. Despite the walls of text, there are only two "keep" advocates: Charmk, who wrote the walls of text, and thereby made me invent the AfD closing principle that the weight of an argument is inversely proportional to the length at which it is expressed. And Ak7324835, who is a [[WP:SPA]] with ten edits. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 19:49, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
▲===[[:Ring (programming language)]]===
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:{{la|Ring (programming language)}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ring (programming language)|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2019 June 27#{{anchorencode:Ring (programming language)}}|View log]]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks">[https://tools.wmflabs.org/jackbot/snottywong/cgi-bin/votecounter.cgi?page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ring_(programming_language) Stats]</span>)
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*'''Delete'''. Fails [[Wikipedia:Notability (software)]] and wider [[WP:N]] policy, passing mentions outside primary sources. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
** Thanks, '''The article is updated to establish notability using secondary resources''' (6 articles in printed journals in [[Youm7]] and [[Al_Riyadh_(newspaper)|Al Riyadh]] Newspapers), 3 articles in printed magazines ([[Computer!Totaal|Computer Total]], BIMArabia and Muslim Researchers), and reviewed articles in CodeProject. Also a lot of resources could be added, I'm working on improving the article. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 01:10, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete'''</s> No significant coverage from third-party sources and also no indication of meeting NSOFT. --<span style="text-shadow:0 1px 5px #99FFFF">[[User:94rain|<
** Thanks, The article is updated to establish notability using secondary resources, '''also a lot of third-party sources are added'''. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 01:10, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
***Which source? I see plenty of them are en.wikibooks/rosettacode/GitHub/Quora/reddit/Sourceforge/Steam/Youtube/Wordpress. They are not reliable. The below discussion is too long and I do not have sufficient time to look through it.--<span style="text-shadow:0 1px 5px #99FFFF">[[User:94rain|<
****'''Summary''' Article Topic : '''A programming language called Ring and related projects (Supernova and PWCT)'''.
The topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article.
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**Your contributions are so [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ak7324835 suspicious], and you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ak7324835&diff=prev&oldid=847797759 deleted] your talk page which is relevant here. -- [[User:Shyam Has Your Anomaly Mitigated|Shyam Has Your Anomaly Mitigated]] ([[User talk:Shyam Has Your Anomaly Mitigated|talk]]) 21:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />
<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Viztor|Viztor]] ([[User talk:Viztor|talk]]) 00:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --
*'''Comment''' The article is updated to establish notability using printed journals, magazines and reviewed articles. I will not repeat them again. The table in the top list some of these resources. Also, the article topic (Ring and related projects : Supernova and PWCT) are open source project and from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(software)#Reliability_and_significance_of_sources] we notice "The way the app is distributed. It is reasonable to allow relatively informal sources for free and open-source software, if significance can be shown.". So we have more options too. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 01:18, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
**Thank you for your effort in improving this article. But please do not rush to close the discussion, which would hinder the generation of clearer consensus. I've striken my previous vote for deletion, but I still hesitate whether to vote for keep before further identifying those sources and knowing others' opinions. Let's be patient and see how it goes. By the way, please do not cite too many primary sources ( en.wikibooks/rosettacode/GitHub/Quora/reddit/Sourceforge/Steam/Youtube/Wordpress). --<span style="text-shadow:0 1px 5px #99FFFF">[[User:94rain|<
*** Thank you very much, I will not cite too many primary sources again. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 02:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
**Relisting is not an opportunity to !vote again. If you want to amend your earlier 'keep' recommendation you can edit your comment and [[WP:strikethrough|strikethrough]] the previous text. [[User:Colin M|Colin M]] ([[User talk:Colin M|talk]]) 03:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
*** Thank you very much [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 03:58, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />'''Relisting comment:''' This discussion is almost impossible to evaluate due to the huge walls of text. Could those who want to keep this article perhaps just list the ''three best sources'' on which their argument for notability is based? After all, three good ''independent'' references to [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] is all we need.<br />
<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Randykitty|Randykitty]] ([[User talk:Randykitty|talk]]) 14:40, 27 June 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --
* '''Summary''' Article Topic : '''A programming language called Ring and related projects (Supernova and PWCT)'''.
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****** I did, references from the same publisher are counted as (one reference), So I picked only 3 references for PWCT and the same for Ring, and together they are the article topic (Ring and related projects (Supernova, PWCT)). The references that I picked are enough for notability, and we have more references in the table above (if we need). Thank you very much [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 07:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
******* Your five refs about Ring: Code Project accepts user submited content - not a RS; general reliability of youm7 was disputed above by Colin M and I share his feeling; BIMArabia seems to publish anything you throw at them, but I can´t base my judgement on Google translate. Certainly not stellar sourcing in your selection. I´m leaning to delete. [[User:Pavlor|Pavlor]] ([[User talk:Pavlor|talk]]) 08:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
******** Articles in CodeProject are reviewed articles, <b>CodeProject Editors review each article before publication</b>. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 11:32, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
******** <b>The Youm7 articles indicates that Ring and PWCT are related projects and this Wikipedia article cover both of them</b>, Also there are 4 articles in Youm7 by 3 different authors in different years (2011, 2016, 2018), not only one author (<b>Ignoring these articles based on feelings is not fair</b>). <b>The BIMArabia article is 3 pages (printed magazine)</b>, Also the other resources about PWCT like [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1167344.pdf][https://computertotaal.nl/artikelen/apps-software/de-beste-freeware-tips-van-oktober-4/][http://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/al_allam_magazine_issue_number_116.pdf#page=26] are enough for notability. (And there are more resources in the table). [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 08:49, 3 July 2019 (UTC) ********* Your approach certainly is not helping. I will give you one last chance: Select one (ONLY ONE = 1) source about Ring (not anything else) you think is best (eg. magazine with editorial staff, respected publisher, independent on the article subject, broad coverage of the article subject). I will review this source and decide for myself. Note more than one reliable source are required to satisfy GNG, but one really good source is enough for me to reconsider my choice. Your turn. [[User:Pavlor|Pavlor]] ([[User talk:Pavlor|talk]]) 09:05, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
********** Why you are talking to me in this way? I am not an employee under your control!, Also I don't care at all about your opinion which is based on feelings and ignoring references listed above (You don't like to invest your time, and my time is valuable too), I just shared my opinion about this topic, updated the article, listed references, I did what I think is useful for Wikipedia, and this is enough for me. Thanks [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 09:18, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' 10 righteous people could save one city, 1 single source could save this article. If there is not at least one good source to discuss, then there is no policy based reason to keep this article. [[User:Pavlor|Pavlor]] ([[User talk:Pavlor|talk]]) 09:36, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
** There are resources listed in the table above, but you are ignoring them because You want to vote without investing time to evaluate resources (which is not recommended), (You ignored 4 articles in Youm7 based on feelings ! NOT FAIR). Also you ignored articles in printed magazine because you don't know Arabic [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 09:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
*** The problem with listing 23 sources instead of 3 (as you did in the 'summary' table above), is that if someone spends some time scrutinizing one of those sources and comes back with reasons it's not reliable, you can just say "well there are still 22 other sources!". Editors at AfD are generally not going to have the time/patience to carefully consider more than 2 or 3 sources. [[User:Colin M|Colin M]] ([[User talk:Colin M|talk]]) 14:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
* '''Last Comment''' I feel that some people who voted for deleting this article are just ignoring the references that establish notability (This doesn't help Wikipedia), The article topic cover Ring and related projects (Supernova & PWCT), and I listed three good references for PWCT notability like [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1167344.pdf][https://computertotaal.nl/artikelen/apps-software/de-beste-freeware-tips-van-oktober-4/][http://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/al_allam_magazine_issue_number_116.pdf#page=26] and they are ignoring them!, Also they ignore articles published in journal (Youm7) by 4 different authors based on feelings that doesn't make sense! And they ignore articles in printed magazines like [http://bimarabia.com/download/BIMarabia_Arabic/BIMarabia27.pdf#page=8] because they don't know Arabic! Those people, I respect them but I can't help them to see the reality! Thanks to all of them, but I hope that Wikipedia contributors learn to invest some more time in evaluation, and learn to not ignore references that they don't uderstand and learn to vote based on facts not feelings! [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 09:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)▼
**** Thank you very much, The real problem in this discussion is ignoring references that establish notability based on feelings! There are 4 Youm7 articles [https://www.youm7.com/story/2011/12/24/%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%A8-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%89-%D9%8A%D8%A8%D8%AA%D9%83%D8%B1-%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%B1-%D9%86%D9%88%D9%81%D8%A7-%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86-%D9%83%D9%88%D8%AF/562415][https://www.youm7.com/story/2016/1/11/%D9%81%D9%89-25-%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%82%D8%A8%D9%84-%D9%84%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%86/2532713][https://www.youm7.com/story/2016/11/23/%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A1-%D8%AA%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86-%D9%83%D9%88%D8%AF/2979508][https://www.youm7.com/story/2018/5/29/%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%89-%D9%8A%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B2-%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%82%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B3-%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AC-%D9%84%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D9%85%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%AD%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%B1/3812107] by 3 different authors published in (2011, 2016, 2018) and ignoring these references that show significant coverage is not fair, Also an article in printed magazine [http://bimarabia.com/download/BIMarabia_Arabic/BIMarabia27.pdf#page=8] and reviewed technical articles (Editor review these articles before publication) [https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1096942/Squares-Puzzle-using-RingAllegro][https://www.codeproject.com/Tips/1222859/Different-styles-for-writing-Hello-World-program-i] Also the article topic cover Ring and related projects (Supernova & PWCT) and there are many good references for PWCT in research papers and printed magazines like [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1167344.pdf][https://computertotaal.nl/artikelen/apps-software/de-beste-freeware-tips-van-oktober-4/][http://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/al_allam_magazine_issue_number_116.pdf#page=26], all of these resources are enough for notability. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 03:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
▲* '''Last Comment''' I feel that some people who voted for deleting this article are just ignoring the references that establish notability (This doesn't help Wikipedia), <b>The article topic cover Ring and related projects (Supernova & PWCT), and I listed three good references for PWCT notability like [https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1167344.pdf][https://computertotaal.nl/artikelen/apps-software/de-beste-freeware-tips-van-oktober-4/][http://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/al_allam_magazine_issue_number_116.pdf#page=26]</b> and they are ignoring them!, Also they ignore articles published in journal (Youm7) by 4 different authors based on feelings that doesn't make sense! And they ignore articles in printed magazines like [http://bimarabia.com/download/BIMarabia_Arabic/BIMarabia27.pdf#page=8] because they don't know Arabic! Those people, I respect them but I can't help them to see the reality! Thanks to all of them, but I hope that Wikipedia contributors learn to invest some more time in evaluation, and learn to not ignore references that they don't uderstand and learn to vote based on facts not feelings! [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 09:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
** The article in question is about Ring, not PWCT. If you wrote an article about PWCT, it would be much easier to demonstrate notability (not that sources you listed are great, but at least Al Allam magazine looks like in depth coverage - assuming there is no connection between author and software developers). Less is more in any AfD, insane refbombing is the best way to dissuade even ultra-inclusionist editors like myself. [[User:Pavlor|Pavlor]] ([[User talk:Pavlor|talk]]) 12:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
*** <b>"If you wrote an article about PWCT, it would be much easier to demonstrate notability"</b> :: Thanks, we already have this Wikipedia article, <b>Ring and PWCT are closely related so we have this Wikipedia article for both of them merged together, Ring is developed using PWCT and it's visual source is distributed with PWCT, Also Ring is designed for developing PWCT 2.0 </b>[[http://ring-lang.sourceforge.net/doc1.10/introduction.html#motivation]]. The first page in the [http://pwct.org PWCT Website] talk about developing the Ring programming language using PWCT, and the first page in the [http://ring-lang.net Ring website] talk about this too, and both of them are designed by Fayed and contributors [http://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/pwcthelp/team.htm][http://ring-lang.sourceforge.net/team.html] and Youm7 articles [https://www.youm7.com/story/2016/1/11/%D9%81%D9%89-25-%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%82%D8%A8%D9%84-%D9%84%D8%BA%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%86/2532713][https://www.youm7.com/story/2016/11/23/%D8%A8%D8%AF%D8%A1-%D8%AA%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D9%8A%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86-%D9%83%D9%88%D8%AF/2979508][https://www.youm7.com/story/2018/5/29/%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1%D9%89-%D9%8A%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B2-%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%82%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B3-%D9%81%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AC-%D9%84%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B9-%D9%85%D9%81%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%AD%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%B1/3812107] talk about them together. [[User:Charmk|Charmk]] ([[User talk:Charmk|talk]]) 14:36, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
{{clear}}
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''<!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
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