Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alcazar Library arson attack: Difference between revisions
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<div class="boilerplate afd vfd xfd-closed archived mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was '''delete'''__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Consensus is the recently creating article about the building - [[Alcazar (Marseille)]] - should be worked on instead. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 10:29, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
===[[:Alcazar Library arson attack]]===
<noinclude>{{AFD help}}</noinclude>
:{{la|1=Alcazar Library arson attack}} – (<includeonly>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alcazar Library arson attack|View AfD]]</includeonly><noinclude>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 July 3#{{anchorencode:Alcazar Library arson attack}}|View log]]</noinclude> | [[Special:Diff/1163161084/cur|edits since nomination]])
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::::{{ping|Jim 2 Michael}} An article about the library would be different from an article about this incident involving the library, and thus the history of this article (especially in this woeful state) doesn't need to be preserved. Just create a new article if you care enough to write it. <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 [[User:Festucalex|<span style="color:#3cb400">Festucalex</span>]] • [[User talk:Festucalex|<span style="color:#ff007f">talk</span>]]'''</span> 18:30, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::The Background & Arson sections, as well as the photo, would be useful for an article about the building. [[User:Jim 2 Michael|Jim 2 Michael]] ([[User talk:Jim 2 Michael|talk]]) 19:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
::::::Even the background content about the building is more [[WP:BOLLOCKS]] than fact. The image comes from the fr.Wikipedia page about the building. Facts and citations are distorted. Architectural landmark? yes. Ancient monument? hardly. Biggest library in town is its biggest center ''of research'', of course. Most researched site? distortion of the citation given. The arson content has only a tenuous relation with the facts. There is nothing worth salvaging. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 22:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::::Agreed. Not worth preserving. If anyone actually wants to create an article about the library, just create a new article with new sources instead of [[WP:BACKWARD]]ing it from this mess. <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 [[User:Festucalex|<span style="color:#3cb400">Festucalex</span>]] • [[User talk:Festucalex|<span style="color:#ff007f">talk</span>]]'''</span> 02:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Crime|Crime]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/France|France]]. [[User:Shellwood|Shellwood]] ([[User talk:Shellwood|talk]]) 11:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)</small>
*'''Delete''' without prejudice to creating an article on the building. This event is not notable enough for a page unless the building is independently notable enough for a page on en.wp. If someone translates the page, the [https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alcazar_%28Marseille%29&diff=205608842&oldid=205605687 single sentence] added to the fr.wp article about this event seems to be proportionally due weight. [[WP:DUE]], [[WP:10Y]], etc. -- [[User:SashiRolls | SashiRolls]] <sup>[[User_talk:SashiRolls | 🌿 ]] · [[Special:Contributions/SashiRolls| 🍥]]</sup> 17:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
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*'''Keep''' and repurpose to an article on the building, which is clearly notable. [https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcazar_(Marseille) French article here]. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
**In that case, what you are actually voting for is delete, because the French article is an article on the building itself and not on this event (which would thus become at best a redirect), and the article about the building would need to be started from scratch here even if using a translation from the French page. Furthermore, the article as it stands already has a redlink to the (non-existent) English equivalent of the French page, further underlining how it's that one that should be created while this removed entirely. --[[User:Dynamo128|Dynamo128]] ([[User talk:Dynamo128|talk]]) 16:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
***If I'd been voting for deletion I'd have said "Delete"! Instead, it needs renaming and repurposing, not deleting. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 09:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Minor news event done in the Breitbart News style, incendiary lede unsupported by the later more factual content. Fails WP:V, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:SOAPBOX. If the library is notable, start over from the [[:fr:Alcazar (Marseille)]] article, rather than this nonsense. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 15:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
*:You show you are blinded by leftwing bias by referencing Breitbart. [[Special:Contributions/71.173.76.38|71.173.76.38]] ([[User talk:71.173.76.38|talk]]) 20:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
:::What in the world are you talking about? Breitbart is considered an unreliable source and its usage is not permitted on Wikipedia. If you think we are all "blinded by leftist bias" (whatever that even means) then I don't think you'll have a very good time with this site's policy on sources. --[[User:Dynamo128|Dynamo128]] ([[User talk:Dynamo128|talk]]) 20:32, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
::*I cited the Breitbart style with this article in mind: "Revealed: 1,000-Man Mob Attack Police, Set Germany’s Oldest Church Alight on New Year’s Eve." (Can't link directly as the link as the site is blacklisted, but here's some context: [https://www.dw.com/en/germany-reacts-to-misleading-breitbart-new-years-eve-report/a-37042470]). A sensational and inflammatory lede is followed by content saying that's not what really happened. A stray firework from New Year's Eve celebrations set a small fire that was extinguished in 10 minutes. In the case of Alcazar, "badly damaged by a large fire" is both sensational and grossly hyperbolic. The following statement, "protesters failed to completely destroy the library," is more factual only because the rioters only vandalized the exterior. A citation in the article says they expect to reopen in a few days. Barely rates a one-sentence mention in an article about the protests. Again, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 02:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Per nom. and pretty much everyone above, the page as it is is clearly not
*[https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1676359478822699008?s=20 link] This is trending on twitter.. [[Special:Contributions/173.163.190.30|173.163.190.30]] ([[User talk:173.163.190.30|talk]]) 00:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
::Deleted tweets, or as we call 'em in the industry, the Paragons of Truth <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 [[User:Festucalex|<span style="color:#3cb400">Festucalex</span>]] • [[User talk:Festucalex|<span style="color:#ff007f">talk</span>]]'''</span> 04:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:This was a horrendous, traumatic attack on the culture and heritage of the indigenous people of France. That makes it notable. We do not downplay or brush under the rug attacks against indigenous cultures, or anyone, as having "lack of notability".
:The wikipedia page appears factually correct. [[User:S138008|S138008]] ([[User talk:S138008|talk]]) 06:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
::Oh, '''KEEP'''. [[User:S138008|S138008]] ([[User talk:S138008|talk]]) 06:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC) <small>— [[User:S138008|S138008]] ([[User talk:S138008|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/S138008|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>
:::Will you provide reliable source citations that support these assertions? The article doesn't have them. The article stretches the truth to the breaking point, concerning both the importance of the building and the damage done. It misrepresents the sources it cites. While the article isn't a pure hoax, it appears to be less than 50 percent factual. [[User:Gene93k|• Gene93k]] ([[User talk:Gene93k|talk]]) 07:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Appeal to emotion using language that virtually no person in the world would in regards to an event like this even if it were real ("attack on indigenous culture"? really?). Which, of course, doesn't even matter since if you think none of the parts of this article appear to be incorrect, I have to question if you even read the article or bothered to check any of the sources... --[[User:Dynamo128|Dynamo128]] ([[User talk:Dynamo128|talk]]) 08:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Gene93k|Dynamo128}} I gather this AfD has gained attention on far-right Twitter, and thus we got a bunch of IPs (and this one [[WP:SPU]]) coming here to troll. Remember, [[WP:DONTFEED]]. <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 [[User:Festucalex|<span style="color:#3cb400">Festucalex</span>]] • [[User talk:Festucalex|<span style="color:#ff007f">talk</span>]]'''</span> 11:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:::::Thank you, duly noted. --[[User:Dynamo128|Dynamo128]] ([[User talk:Dynamo128|talk]]) 12:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
::https://twitter.com/elonteslaholic/status/1674799695254925316?s=20
::It's so easy to search on any social media. Not sure why Breitbart is blacklisted. It's owned by CCP. Aren't we CCP owned now? So should be any MSM corporate owned media until the Smith Mundt Act which allowed propaganda in 2012 in the US is rescinded or replaced.
::It's insanity that there is this much effort to whitewash truth. [[Special:Contributions/173.163.190.30|173.163.190.30]] ([[User talk:173.163.190.30|talk]]) 11:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
:::The only sources you've posted are a blacklisted site known to be a sensationalist tabloid at best, and deleted tweets. Not exactly persuasive. [[User:TheInsatiableOne|TheInsatiableOne]] ([[User talk:TheInsatiableOne|talk]]) 15:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per the many problems already discussed. [[User:Walt Yoder|Walt Yoder]] ([[User talk:Walt Yoder|talk]]) 02:13, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:NYC Guru|NYC Guru]] ([[User talk:NYC Guru|talk]]) 02:18, 11 July 2023 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
* Surprised the main subject does not have its own English article, the best solution as mentioned above is to AfC from the French translation and then merge this article into that in my opinion. - [[User:Indefensible|Indefensible]] ([[User talk:Indefensible|talk]]) 03:58, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. The keep votes are mostly all arguing for a completely different article to exist with a completely different name. The delete votes are persuasive. I'm concerned that this AfD has been extended for another week for "clearer consensus" given the problems already observed by the nom and others arguing for deletion. -- [[User:Asilvering|asilvering]] ([[User talk:Asilvering|talk]]) 04:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Delete and merge''' Appears to be a solitary incident as part of widespread protests and therefore not not notable for stand alone article. [[User:Jtbobwaysf|Jtbobwaysf]] ([[User talk:Jtbobwaysf|talk]]) 06:53, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I have created a page, [[Alcazar (Marseille)]], translated and sourced entirely from the French article, save one reference to the recent fire which I found myself in Le Monde. The French article tone is a bit off in my view, but for the initial translation I tried to stick to it faithfully to preserve attribution. Copy edits from this point on to make it more encyclopaedic are welcome. Creation of that article does not change my view that this one should be deleted. Nothing in this article can be merged into that one, as anything beyond the one line of text from the French article on the fire is undue, and the history on this page is wrong. Editors might wish to consider redirect as an alternative to deletion, but I oppose that because I don't actually think the subject of "Alcazar Library arson attack" has anything but ephemeral significance. People are not going to be searching for this in the future. Yes, redirects are cheap, but this one is really not necessary. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 09:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
::Very good, I was going to attempt a translation myself once I returned home only to see it has just been taken care of. Thank you kindly. I completely agree with you that, even though redirects are cheap, this is a case where an outright delete is the better option. And the presence of this article now, as far as I am concerned, voids any concerns about needing to merge the existing page into this or that article. --[[User:Dynamo128|Dynamo128]] ([[User talk:Dynamo128|talk]]) 09:29, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
{{clear}}
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''<!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
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