Content deleted Content added
TedDunning (talk | contribs) Question about recent additional foundation for Presto |
Tag: |
||
| (37 intermediate revisions by 9 users not shown) | |||
Line 1:
{{WikiProject
{{WikiProject Computing |importance=low |software=yes }}
}}
{{Copied |from=Presto (SQL query engine) |from_oldid=1043722536 |to=Trino (SQL query engine) |date= |afd= |merge= |diff= |to_diff=1045503268 |to_oldid= }}
== Users with Conflict of Interest ==
This lists users with a conflict of interest.
{{Connected contributor|User1=brianolsen2|U1-declared=yes|U1-otherlinks=Trino contributor and work at a vendor that builds off of Trino.}}
{{Connected contributor|User1=StevenMih88|U1-declared=no|U1-otherlinks=Presto governing board member and works at a vendor that builds off Presto.}}
{{Connected contributor|User1=MattsFuller|U1-declared=no|U1-otherlinks=Trino contributor and work at a vendor that builds off of Trino.}}
{{Connected contributor|User1=Findepi|U1-declared=no|U1-otherlinks=Trino contributor and work at a vendor that builds off of Trino.}}
{{Connected contributor|User1=Electrum|U1-declared=no|U1-otherlinks=Trino and Presto creator and works at a vendor that builds off of Trino.}}
{{Connected contributor|User1=Adweisbe|U1-declared=no|U1-otherlinks=Presto contributor and works at a company developing Presto.}} [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 21:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
== Let's stop removing factual content from the Presto Wikipedia article ==
Line 131 ⟶ 144:
See https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press-release/2019/09/facebook-uber-twitter-and-alibaba-form-presto-foundation-to-tackle-distributed-data-processing-at-scale/ for an announcement?
[[User:TedDunning|TedDunning]] ([[User talk:TedDunning|talk]]) 18:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
--------
I added a line for it.
[[User:Adweisbe|Adweisbe]] ([[User talk:Adweisbe|talk]]) 20:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
== Trino vs Presto ==
I have redirected [[Trino (SQL query engine)]] to [[Presto (SQL query engine)]] (see [[Special:Diff/1047289450/1047617762|diff]] to avoid a [[WP:CONTENTFORK]]. The new Trino article was started as a fork of this one, and it just added even more confusion about Presto and Trino. I think it would be better to improve this article, in particular the History section, and discuss in this talk page how the content about Presto and Trino should be split. [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 10:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
-----
Hi {{u|MarioGom}}.
Thanks for clearing up the way to go about this and I apologize for doing so outside of the Wikipedia policies. I still a little new and figuring out the right way to go about this.
I am definitely close to the Trino project as I am a contributor to the project and work as a Developer Advocate at a company the builds an enterprise version of the project. I will figure out all the ways I need to comply to make updates or suggestions moving forward.
As per the message you sent me, it seems since I have a clear conflict I am limited to suggesting edits but I'm not sure who can add these changes at the end of the day.
Trino is now a separate entity and is not Presto. The projects have no intention of rejoining in the same way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_(software) is now a different project from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_(software). So the concern for a https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CONTENTFORK is not applicable in this case.
What are the steps forward we can take to get the Trino page reestablished and who has the authority to do so if I have a conflict of interest? There is actually more confusion added if these projects are not separate entities.
I made an initial attempt to make a differing page that described Trino and [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 19:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
-----
:Hi {{u|Brianolsen2}}: First of all, I left a message in [[User talk:Brianolsen2|your talk page]] about paid editing requirements. Note that you can propose changes, and discuss them in the talk page like any other editor. You should generally avoid making these changes directly.{{pb}}
:I'm aware of the Trino/Presto dispute, as well as the Jenkins/Hudson one. Thank you for bringing that example up. My main issue with the [[Special:Permalink/1047289450|version of the Trino article]] you created initially is that it felt like retroactively rewriting history, as well as copying content in a way that both articles offered parallel realities.{{pb}}
:We should start with what [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] say about the topic. Is there any reliable source that says that Trino is the original Presto, and that the current Presto is a fork of the original Presto? Or any similar claim? How is the naming dispute and fork described by such sources? [[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 17:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
-----
Hi {{u|MarioGom}}, It's been a while. I'm still working out the best way to get this cleared up and we have looked for a Wikipedian in the Trino community that might be able to help here with little luck. I wanted to follow up on a few questions.
# Should the CEO of Ahana {{u|StevenMih88}} be able to [[Special:Diff/1102559891/1084776295|make edits on the Presto page]] since there is a clear conflict of interest as there was with my case?
# I wanted to know if we provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]], would I be able to ask for your help to create a small initial Trino software page to at least distinguish between the two forks of the software? I'm curious to know if [https://trino.io/blog/2020/12/27/announcing-trino.html this blog created by the founders of both Trino and Presto] would be enough to validate the story behind the project split. These sources are reliable as they are the founders of the project as can be seen by the GitHub contribution graphs for both [https://github.com/trinodb/trino/graphs/contributors Trino] and [https://github.com/prestodb/presto/graphs/contributors Presto]. Martin (martint), Dain(dain), and David (electrum) are in the top 4 contributors and have the longest history in both repositories. They are responsible for creating both the original project and the Trino fork. Would accounts from them be good enough to establish that Trino is a reputable fork and would you be willing to make a separate page so that it clearly distinguishes between the two projects?<br /><br />I have [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Brianolsen2/sandbox&oldid=1106675313 revised my initial version of the Trino page in my sandbox] as a suggestion on the initial Trino page. I've
#* Removed all redundant segments of the History section with the Presto page to focus on Trino's history starting from 2019 when the fork was created.
#* Refer to the Presto History for the remainder of the back story.
#* Removed the Use Case section for now and we can revisit this later.
#* Add a lot more citations using the Trino: The Definitive Guide book.
# Would it also be possible for us to list these forks [[Wikipedia:List_of_software_forks | on this List of Software Forks Wikipedia page]]?
Thanks for all the help {{u|MarioGom}}!
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 17:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
:Also want to extend the request to [[User:W Nowicki|W_Nowicki]] if you are interested in helping. I notice you've done some previous work related to Presto and Trino pages in the past. Thanks! [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 15:51, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
:Hey @[[User:Uhai|Uhai]]! I saw some of the edits you added to this page. Would you be interested in helping us create a separate page for the Trino project? [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 17:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you [[User: Smga3000 | Smga3000]] for taking my edits into consideration!
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 20:08, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
-----
I know I'm not supposed to make edits on this page as I am part of the Trino Software Foundation, as well as, a Starburst employee. I have undone [[Special:Diff/1110377318/1110377318|some edits put forth]] by the CEO of Ahana, {{u|StevenMih88}} as there is a clear [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest|conflict of interest]]. I will continue to monitor this page and remove anything he posts henceforth until we can get a proper moderator. If you would like to help moderate this page and help me with some of the items above to create a separate page for Trino it would be greatly appreciated!
After a discussion in another forum, one of the disputes is around this claim:
> Neither the creators of Presto, nor the top contributors and committers, were invited to join this foundation.
It would be good for someone not affiliated with either project or vendor around either project to review this claim and determine if it should still remain on the page.
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 11:25, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
-----
Hi {{u|MarioGom}} - StevenMih88 here - I'm also requesting a review by you here on the talk page as it relates to 3 items. Thanks in advance:
1) My edit which was deleted by [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]]:
"Presto Foundation is an open community and everyone is welcome to participate as long as they abide by the code of conduct."
2) My edit, also undone:
Initial sentence, instead of "Presto (including PrestoDB, and PrestoSQL which was re-branded to Trino)"
Requesting consideration as there is a separate Trino page published now, to make this page less confusing and focused on Presto to be revised to:
"Presto (including PrestoDB)"
Note: Trino is now in the See Also section.
3) and the reviewing the claim that:
> Neither the creators of Presto, nor the top contributors and committers, were invited to join this foundation.
Thanks again for your objective consideration.
[[User:StevenMih88|StevenMih88]] ([[User talk:StevenMih88|talk]]) 05:08, 4 October 2022 (UTC)Steven Mih
{{edit COI|D}}
<!--Don't remove anything above this line.-->
* '''Specific text to be added or removed''': Remove text "Neither the creators of Presto, nor the top contributors and committers, were invited to join this foundation."
* '''Reason for the change''': This claim is controversial and can likely lead to a [[WP:Battle]]. The statement doesn't support or help readers understand Presto or Trino and isn't [[WP:NEUTRAL]]
* '''References supporting change''': This claim made by Piotr (top 5 contributor to both projects) states that neither they nore the creators Martin, Dain, and David were invited<ref>{{cite web |last1=Findeisen |first1=Piotr |title=What is the relationship of prestosql and prestodb? · Issue #380 · trinodb/trino |url=https://github.com/trinodb/trino/issues/380#issuecomment-557691046 |website=GitHub |access-date=4 October 2022 |language=en}}</ref>. Later in 2020 there was a vacuous invitation to merge the Trino project into the Presto project under the terms that Martin, Dain, and David would no longer be on the steering committee. This was extended years after the contending project was established and from the perspective of the creators was posturing of the Presto community to show that they aimed to join the communities. It seems pretty clear why we're pushing two different accounts but this really doesn't matter to anyone who wants to use Presto or Trino so I think removing either claim is a benefit to everyone.
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 16:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
<!--Don't remove anything below this line-->
{{reftalk}}
-----
I agree with [[User:StevenMih88|StevenMih88]]'s first and third requests above and I have created a formal request edit for the third one as it will make the page less divisive.
I disagree that we should remove "Presto (including PrestoDB, and PrestoSQL which was re-branded to Trino)". For about two years after the projects split, [[Trino_(SQL_query_engine) |Trino]] was branded as PrestoSQL vs the original PrestoDB project before it was renamed to Trino<ref>{{cite web |last1=Phillips |first1=David |last2=Sundstrom |first2=Dain |last3=Traverso |first3=Martin |title=We’re rebranding PrestoSQL as Trino |url=https://trino.io/blog/2020/12/27/announcing-trino.html |website=trino.io |access-date=4 October 2022 |language=en |date=27 December 2020}}</ref>. There are many people using the PrestoSQL name that are unknowingly using earlier versions of the Trino fork. It will help many to know if they are using PrestoSQL and which version they have actually been using. In fact, having a clear ___location on both pages where we delineate the differences of both project and cross reference will help users in general. Despite Trino being included in the [[Presto_(SQL_query_engine)#See_also]] section, they might not know to investigate that version if they are on PrestoSQL. So keeping that distinction is important, just as the distinction is made in the [[Trino_(SQL_query_engine)#History]] section.
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 17:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' <!-- Template:ECOI --> This looks like a content dispute between COI editors. Denied. [[User:Quetstar|Quetstar]] ([[User talk:Quetstar|talk]]) 23:48, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
== Merger proposal ==
[[User:Frap|Frap]] has proposed to merge the [[Presto_(SQL_query_engine) |Presto]] article into the [[Trino_(SQL_query_engine) |Trino]] article. A merger proposal wasn't added so I am adding one and am happy to let Frap describe their reasons for this proposal. Until then I will list some of the pros and cons to this in my opinion as a Developer Advocate on the Trino project and employee at a vendor built a top of Trino, Starburst.
To me, these pages are separate for a reason. The projects have distinct foundations (Presto with the Presto Foundation under the Linux Foundation and Trino under the Trino Software Foundation). The projects have diverged significantly <ref>https://trino.io/blog/2022/08/02/leaving-facebook-meta-best-for-trino.html</ref>. There are a significant number of projects that exist in Trino (such as support for fault-tolerance <ref>https://trino.io/blog/2022/05/05/tardigrade-launch.html</ref>), that do not exist in Presto. Likewise, Presto has started to move their efforts to supporting integration with Meta project Velox<ref>https://engineering.fb.com/2022/08/31/open-source/velox/</ref> which Trino does not plan on supporting.
Many other projects<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_forks</ref> have a separate wiki page for multiple forks. Trino and Presto have already been added to this list, to help clarify this.
The biggest advantage to keeping these two separate is that people interested in learning more about the technologies have a clear understanding that these are now two distinct projects that share history. Depending on the context that they are learning, it can be confusing if someone searches for Trino and winds up on a Presto page to a different project and also it would be just as confusing if they were searching for the Facebook Presto project and wound up on a Trino page. The articles were written in such a way that they reference each other well and make the shared history clear while providing facts about each of the individual projects moving forward. This also avoids [[Wikipedia:Content_forking]].
For these reasons, I propose against merging these two articles.
[[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 21:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
:You bring up some good points and I can buy your arguments. The reason I proposed the merger was that both articles were almost identical. If Trino and Presto diverge enough that the content of the articles were to be different then they would warrant separate articles. [[User:Frap|Frap]] ([[User talk:Frap|talk]]) 14:30, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
::Yeah, there are plenty of differences to be discussed that I would like to point out on both pages. If you would be interested in writing them I can provide suggestions and sources, but I myself can't write about it as I have a conflict of interest. Would you want to help showcase the differences between these projects? [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 16:13, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
::[[User:Frap|Frap]], any thoughts here? Would love to get some help updating these pages so they aren't as identical and really highlight the differences to lighten the load of folks learning about them. [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 20:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
::Once clear change we probably should make is removing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Presto_%28SQL_query_engine%29&diff=prev&oldid=1068161898&diffmode=source the Trino architecture from the Presto page]. This information is redundant and as shown in the picture, actually describes Trino's architecture versus Presto's.
::This will make the articles look different since that was copied in from the Trino page. [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 18:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
:I'm going to remove the merger proposal for now since this conversation has gone stale. [[User:Brianolsen2|Brianolsen2]] ([[User talk:Brianolsen2|talk]]) 20:29, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}
| |||