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{{WikiProject
{{WikiProject Computing|importance=Low|software=yes|software-importance=Mid}} }}
{{refideas
| {{cite book
| title = Assembler Language Programming for IBM System z ™ Servers - Version 2.00
| author = John R. Ehrman
| date = February 2016
| edition = Second
| url = http://148.100.100.35/enterprisesystemseducation/assemblerlanguageresources/Assembler.V2.alntext%20V2.00.pdf
| access-date = September 29, 2023
}}
}}
==BAL brings back memories==
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== Apples and oranges ==
{{ping|
The edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Basic_Assembly_Language&oldid=1164874838 introduces errors. E.g., the tables shows Basic Assembler Language as having been written in HLASM, which did not exist at the time, and as running on systems other than BPS/360, which it is not able to do. Absent a compelling reason, I plan to restore the status quo. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 18:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
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::::The references to [[z/OS]] and [[z/VSE]] are just examples of the fact that HLASM allows user-provided libraries and does not dictate the contents of those libraries. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 11:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
:Essentially the same is true for anything that allows user-defined libraries: the semantics, and sometimes the syntax, depend on the libraries that the user provides. There is nothing special about, e.g., ''SYS1.MACLIB'', from the perspective of HLASM. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 11:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
::"True" in the sense that "there may be two or more libraries, for a given language, where the libraries provide ways of doing some particular thing, but the way you do it with one of those libraries isn't the way you do it with another", but if smething allows user-defined libraries, user-defined libraries could be provided for several different OSes that supprt sequential file access with the same API on all of those different OSes, so you *could*, for example, provide the ability to sequentially write a file with the same code on z/OS and z/VSE, by linking the code, on z/OS, with the z/OS version of the library (which would implement its APIs atop QSAM APIs) and linking the code, on z/
::But if you want to use the OS's "native" sequential I/O APIs, you'd have to write different code for different OSes, as the APIs in question aren't the same.
::This is similar to, for example, "if you want to write code to write a text file sequentially, using the same C code on multiple OSes, you can use the standard C I/O routines, which would be implemented differently atop OSes that have different APIs for that, but if you want to use the native APIs, you might be able to do that with common code atop Linux/Solaris/macOS/FreeBSD/HP-UX/NetBSD/AIX/V7 UNIX/..., as they're all UN*Xes with the same core APIs for that, but you'd have to change the code a bit on Windows and a lot on VMS or other OSes for which there are C compilers". The difference here is that, as far as I know, HLASM doesn't provide any libraries with OS-independent sequential I/O APIs, whereas the library for a hosted C implementation must provide the standard C I/O routines. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
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== Requested move 3 September 2023 ==
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''
The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' Consensus that the title "Basic Assembly Language" does not accurately describe the article's scope. The improvement in accuracy appears to have been viewed as significant enough to outweigh the reduction in [[WP:CONCISION]]. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> [[User:ModernDayTrilobite|ModernDayTrilobite]] ([[User talk:ModernDayTrilobite|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ModernDayTrilobite|contribs]]) 14:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
----
[[:Basic Assembly Language]] → {{no redirect|IBM Basic assembly language and successors}} – The article discusses the entire family of assemblers for the IBM S/360 through z mainframes; only on [[BPS/360]] and [[BOS/360]] was the assembler named BAL. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 17:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
:For context, I had moved the article ''IBM Basic assembly language'' to ''IBM Basic assembly language and successors'' a decade ago in edit [[Special:Permalink/566727959]];
: '''Support''' The title needs to have IBM in it, and the proposed title better describes the article’s subject. [[User:Peter Flass|Peter Flass]] ([[User talk:Peter Flass|talk]]) 18:21, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
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:::::::so the IBM System/360 Basic Programming Support Basic Assembler Language is an assembler language, programs written in which can be assembled by all of the assemblers in question. The OS/360 Assembler can also assemble programs written in another assembler language with greater capabilities than the IBM System/360 Basic Programming Support Basic Assembler Language, such as 8-character symbol names, a division operator in expressions evaluated at assembly time, and macro instructions. That language is, as per "Programs written in the Basic Assembler Language as described in this publication are acceptable to the other ... and Operating System Assemblers", a proper superset of the IBM System/360 Basic Programming Support Basic Assembler Language.
:::::::Perhaps some people have used "BAL" to refer to assembler languages other than the IBM System/360 Basic Programming Support Basic Assembler Language; if that usage is sufficiently common, perhaps a case can be made for using "BAL" as a term for all S/360 through z/Architecture assembler languages. Unless they've used "Basic Assembler Language" in that sense, rather than in the specific sense of the IBM System/360 Basic Programming Support Basic Assembler Language, a similar case for "Basic Assembler Language" would not work. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::::I'm one [[User:Peter Flass|Peter Flass]] ([[User talk:Peter Flass|talk]]) 23:55, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::::::"BAL" (which might have become a generic term divorced from its use as an initialism for "Basic Assembler Language"), or "Basic Assembler Language"? [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 02:14, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::It's a reasonable point, but alas it is unsourced. I've updated that section with Guy Harris's source and it no longer mentions BAL. [[User:Mathnerd314159|Mathnerd314159]] ([[User talk:Mathnerd314159|talk]]) 05:27, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::
::::::Might be, but I never heard it in the OS/360 or OS/VS2 days. I never used DOS/360 or DOS/VSE. It might be that I never knew anyone who did. Did enough people call it that to make it the [[WP:COMMONNAME]]? My guess is no, but I haven't asked so many people. [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 11:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
:::::::
:::::::It was used in some shops, some textbooks, some news articles, but I wouldn't say it was the common name. Doing an ACM Digital Library search, IBM AND ("basic assembly language" OR "basic assembler language") has 28 hits, while "360 assembly language" OR "370 assembly language" OR "360 assembler language" OR "370 assembler language" produces 142 hits. Those were the common names, or simply "the assembler". [[User:Wasted Time R|Wasted Time R]] ([[User talk:Wasted Time R|talk]]) 23:49, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
::::::::
::::::::I have lost a few times in [[WP:COMMONNAME]] discussions, when I thought an article should have the technically correct name. If it isn't the correct name or the [[WP:COMMONAME]] then maybe we should change it? [[User:Gah4|Gah4]] ([[User talk:Gah4|talk]]) 20:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div>
== DOS vs OS? ==
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:Assembler H was a completely new assembler with enhanced macro facilities. It was mostly compatible with F and, later, with XF. Assembler H V2 and HLASM started from the H code base.
:The article should go into this in more detail, absent the conjecture about the XF code base. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 13:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
== Problems with external links ==
I've run into some issues with #external links:
# IBM High Level Assembler manual
#* doesn't indicate which manual
#* Should be ... General Information
# High Level Assembler for z/OS & z/VM & z/VSE Language Reference
#* Unable to connect
#* There's a 2017 copy at [https://www0.ibm.com/servers/resourcelink/svc00100.nsf/pages/zOSV2R3sc264940/$file/asmr1023.pdf]
#* I'm pretty sure that there's a more recent one online
# Web enabled IBM Assembler F compiler for small experiments
#* 404 compliant
# ASSIST – Assembler System for Student Instruction & Systems Teaching
#* 404 compliant
I'll look around and see what I can find to update these, but if someone else gets there first I'll be happy. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
== Nomenclature - truncated addressing ==
{{ping|Peter Flass}} Should the article use the generic term of art "truncated addressing",<ref>{{cite manual
| title = PHILCO® 2000 Electronic Data Processing System - PROGRAMMING MANUAL
| id = TM-10
| date = November 1960
| url = http://bitsavers.org/pdf/philco/2000/TM-10_Philco_2000_Programming_Manual_Nov1960.pdf
| access-date = October 18, 2023
}}
</ref><ref>{{cite manual
| title = REFERENCE MANUAL - UNIVAC III Data Processing System
| id = UT-2488
| year = 1962
| url = http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/univac3/UT-2488_UNIVACIII_ref_Jun62.pdf
| access-date = October 18, 2023
}}
</ref> or should it use the term "base-displacement addressing" introduced with [[System/360]]?
:Wow, some pretty old manuals! Unfortunately they’re not searchable, so I wasn’t able to easily find references to “truncated.” In any case, the article is about software for System/360, so I think the IBM terminology makes more sense. [[User:Peter Flass|Peter Flass]] ([[User talk:Peter Flass|talk]]) 17:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
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