Talk:Executable and Linkable Format: Difference between revisions

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== "Linkable" to "Linking" Name Change from TIS 1.1 to TIS 1.2 ==

== Mac OS X using ELF? ==

I added the reference to the TIS 1.1 spec and removed the {citation needed} tag from the first mention of the pages name in the lede. I was hoping to find some acknowledgement or explanation in the TIS 1.2 ELF specification referenced concerning the change from the name "Executable and Linkable Format", which is found throughout the TIS 1.1 specification, to "Executable and Linking Format". Does anyone know of a source of information for why and when the name was changed, and whether it was in fact officially changed by the TIS committee? [[User:DonaldLflr|DonaldLflr]] ([[User talk:DonaldLflr|talk]]) 21:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Does Mac OS X use ELF?? -- [[User:Mjanich|Michael]]

:See [[Talk:Mac OS X]]. [[User:Dysprosia|Dysprosia]] 07:50, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

:No, it uses [[Mach-O]]... --[[User:Unsound|Unsound]] 19:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

== Wrong value of "e_phoff" in the attached diagram? ==

== In-process vs. out-of-process object sharing ==

The example ELF header shown in the diagram is for a 32-bit architecture, so I think ''e_phoff'' field should have value 0x34, not 0x40. This would also require an adjustment in the "Program header table" part of the diagram (the heading before raw bytes of the section which currently reads "Offset:0x40/Address:0x8000040" should be changed to "Offset:0x34/Address:0x8000034"). [[Special:Contributions/37.128.124.190|37.128.124.190]] ([[User talk:37.128.124.190|talk]]) 08:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I think this should also reference [[OLE]] [[Object linking and embedding]], which I think may embody the MS way and Maybe [[Component Object Model]] Where the [[*nix]] way is more of a [[Process model]] or some such. [[User:Quinobi|Quinobi]] 21:19, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

:No, 0x40 is correct. On the left side you can see the ph starts at the 65th byte. A program header does not always have to start after the ELF header, though it's very common. Not sure why the author added some padding bytes after the ELF header. [[User:INSANETAURUS|INSANETAURUS]] ([[User talk:INSANETAURUS|talk]]) 16:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:Executable image formats have nothing to do with object linking models. One could implement OLE and COM using ELF (and COM objects can be "in-process", linked into the address space of the calling process, or "out of process", running in a separate address space in a separate process); I'm not sure what "the [[*nix]] way is more of a [[Process model]] or some such" means, but if you're referring to pipelines, that can be implemented with the Windows [[Portable Executable]] format and, in fact, if the [[Windows NT]] command interpreter implements the pipe operator by building a Unix-style pipeline, somebody, namely Microsoft, ''did'' implement pipelines with processes running code in PE format. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] 23:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

== Typo (".shrtrtab") in the attached diagram ==

== sources ==

[http://www.mr511.de/software/english.html free ELF object file access library] might want to change to this link, old link redirects to here!

".shstrtab" is erroneously spelled as ".shrtrtab" in "SECTIONS' NAMES" and "SECTION HEADER TABLE" parts of the attached ELF format diagram. [[Special:Contributions/37.128.124.190|37.128.124.190]] ([[User talk:37.128.124.190|talk]]) 09:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

== Jacksum ==

:Any string table section can be called anything, though some ELF analyzing tools might not work if an unconventional name is used. The sh_type member just has to be correct. [[User:INSANETAURUS|INSANETAURUS]] ([[User talk:INSANETAURUS|talk]]) 17:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

If ELF-32 indeed means the checksum used by this executable format, then it might make sense to add this link (and some explanation):

* [[Jacksum]] — by Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Johann N. Löfflmann in [[Java programming language|Java]]. Various message verification functions. Released under the [[GNU General Public License|GPL]].

Otherwise, please correct the [[Jacksum]] article. [[User:Gerbrant|Shinobu]] 16:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

== Reads like a fraction of a specification instead of just including the specification documents ==

== outperform != not a competitor ==

Since this is an encyclopedia and the ELF specifications are very readable, why is this respecifying the format instead of referencing the specification or embedding an archived copy (if its copyright allows) ? [[User:TristanDC|TristanDC]] ([[User talk:TristanDC|talk]]) 09:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

This sentence doesn't make sense:

: Because most of our technical articles are terrible paraphrases of the manual, and this is no exception. It needs the reference content removed entirely and reformatted around the format's ''purpose'' and ''use'', like proper articles. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)]] ([[User talk:Thumperward|talk]]) 09:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

''Because other formats are proprietary, platform-specific, or less extensible than ELF, some users hold that ELF outperforms other formats, whereas others may consider it a competitor to the other format''

:: {{user|INSANETAURUS}} just used their first ever edit (though it might be {{user|88.238.58.190}}, who just argued the same thing on my talk) to restore this under the non-rationale [[WP:USEFUL]]. As this isn't a compelling argument, I'll be removing it again in due course: this isn't a reference manual and anyone using it as such would be far better off using the real thing. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)]] ([[User talk:Thumperward|talk]]) 16:41, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell what is trying to be said. Are we suggesting that some people think that ELF's openness and flexibility make it far beyond the alternatives (to the extent that the alternatives are not options, but relics)? Even if so, the sentence doesn't read well. The first part does not contradict the second (as expected when using whereas). One competitor may outperform the alternatives.

:::I am not 88.238.58.190. Without the attached diagram and the tables, I would have had no starting point for programming my own x86 assembler. Genuine specifications like the System V ABI do not include an example ELF binary, therefore the attached diagram was a very useful ressource. [[User:INSANETAURUS|INSANETAURUS]] ([[User talk:INSANETAURUS|talk]]) 17:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:::: [[WP:NOTGUIDE|Wikipedia is not a reference source]], and anything here which is not directly associated with an ''actual'' source is user-generated and thus no more reliable than a random Wordpress blog. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)]] ([[User talk:Thumperward|talk]]) 21:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

How about something more like:

:::::The goal of Wikipedia is to benefit its readers. Nothing on the ELF page can be seen as a manual or an article about how to create ELF binaries. I obviously did not soley use Wikipedia to learn about ELF binaries, just as a starting point. Your edit to remove the images and tables on the ELF page made the page less beneficial. I do agree, however, that the ELF page is a bit bloated. [[User:INSANETAURUS|INSANETAURUS]] ([[User talk:INSANETAURUS|talk]]) 15:15, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

''Since it is nonproprietary, platform-agnostic, and extensible, many users consider ELF to be far beyond its competitors.''

:::::: Again, no. [[WP:USEFUL|How useful something is is not the arbiter of inclusion]]. It can just as easily be used as a starting point by ''linking'' to the reference documents rather than by trying to act as a manual in its own right. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)]] ([[User talk:Thumperward|talk]]) 10:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Or perhaps remove the line entirely.

:::::::Trying to act as manual '''≠''' actual manual. Your edit removed the 'Specifications' section even though no one complained about that section. [[User:INSANETAURUS|INSANETAURUS]] ([[User talk:INSANETAURUS|talk]]) 17:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

--[[User:JamesBrownJr|JamesBrownJr]] 21:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

== ELF Problems ==

Someone should add a section about ELF's significant problems, especially regarding dynamic linking semantics. See: [http://autopackage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=416] and [http://plan99.net/autopackage/Linux_Problems] <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:131.111.243.37|131.111.243.37]] ([[User talk:131.111.243.37|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/131.111.243.37|contribs]]) 10:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:See also [http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Porting/Conceptual/PortingUnix/compiling/chapter_4_section_7.html Porting UNIX/Linux applications to Mac OS X: Understanding Two-Level Namespaces] and [http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/DeveloperTools/TwoLevelNamespaces.html Mac OS X Developer Release Notes: Two-Level Namespace Executables], as perhaps what [http://plan99.net/autopackage/Linux_Problems#elf the ELF section of the "Linux Problems" page of the Autopackage Wiki] calls "hash" sometimes has ingredients that don't taste too bad, even if the hash as a whole isn't to your taste. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] 00:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

== Strangely formulated sentence... ==

From the article: "Today the ELF format has replaced [snip] FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD operating systems (DragonFly BSD was forked from FreeBSD after the switch to ELF)" If DragonFly BSD was forked from FreeBSD _after_ the switch, then it should too use ELF? I think the it should say "before the switch"... but I'm tired and maybe my mind is playing tricks on me. --[[User:Unsound|Unsound]] 19:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

No, those are the systems in which ELF replaced a.out/COFF. Dragonfly BSD was forked after switching to ELF, so it's always had ELF, therefore ELF didn't replace anything.

== File recognition ==

Imagine a file without a file extension, how can an operating system know whether this file is an ELF executable or not? --[[User:Abdull|Abdull]] 16:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

: [[Magic number (programming)|Magic number]]s. See [http://www.astro.keele.ac.uk/oldusers/rno/Computing/File_magic.html here]. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham]] 16:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

== DragonFly BSD ==

I removed the parenthetical mention of [[DragonFly BSD]] from the introduction because it was not clear to me whether it meant that it does or does not use ELF. The previous text read:

: "[ELF is used in] ... ''and [[OpenBSD]] operating systems ([[DragonFly BSD]] was forked from FreeBSD after the switch to ELF).''"

-- [[User:Dmeranda|Dmeranda]] 18:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Name of the article ==

The lede calls it "Executable and Link'''ing''' Format". However, the article _title_ is "Executable and link'''able''' format". Since all the extant docs I can find call it the latter - would any of y'all have objections to renaming the article to the "linkable" version? (It'd require administrator intervention, however, to remove the target.) --[[User:Dogcow|moof]] ([[User talk:Dogcow|talk]]) 07:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

== Merge? ==

[[86open]] appears to be a historical footnote of ELF. Unless there were other important products of 86open, I'm unsure if there's really more to say about it. [[User:Ham Pastrami|Ham Pastrami]] ([[User talk:Ham Pastrami|talk]]) 10:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

:Agreed, let's merge [[User:Jalwikip|Jalwikip]] ([[User talk:Jalwikip|talk]]) 12:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:Copied over x86open content [[User:SamJohnston|samj]] ([[User talk:SamJohnston|talk]]) 13:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:Merge completed [[User:SamJohnston|samj]] ([[User talk:SamJohnston|talk]]) 13:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::This does not look good. Either the merge was sloppy or the merge should not have been done or the 86open material is not encyclopedia worthy. I personally think the merge should be reversed. If 86open is a footnote, the ELF article should not be cluttered by it. --[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 16:01, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:::The 86open page should not have been merged with the ELF article. Notability of 86open was discussed and agreed upon in that (former) article's talk page. The merge should be reversed and links to the 86open article placed here citing it as an industry wide adoption of ELF as the standard binary format. [[User:Doctorfree|Ronald Joe Record]] ([[User talk:Doctorfree|talk]]) 19:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== C Process Map is Wrong? ==

The C Process Map appears to be wrong. The variable z is shown twice and y is missing. Also, the "Dynamic/Runtime" view appears to be wrong (e.g. the stack grows down not up and the heap and text sections appear to be in the wrong place). It is a very useful image so it would be good to keep it if it can be corrected, although a .svg file format would be a better choice.

[[User:Tim Watson|Tim Watson]] ([[User talk:Tim Watson|talk]]) 16:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

== Ownership, Governance, and Licensing ==

Who owns the ELF format, how it is governed (i.e. what entity makes changes and through what process), and is the format available under a free license? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.176.181.188|67.176.181.188]] ([[User talk:67.176.181.188|talk]]) 06:44, 20 May 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== FatELF ==

FatELF redirects here, but the page says nothing about it. Someone more knowledgeable should add some explanation, or just delete the redirect. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.142.221.171|71.142.221.171]] ([[User talk:71.142.221.171|talk]]) 04:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: added some info, fixed. [[Special:Contributions/141.52.232.84|141.52.232.84]] ([[User talk:141.52.232.84|talk]]) 12:32, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

== Broken Links? ==

It seems the link to the Motorola 8 and 16 bit Embedded ABI PDF is broken, and there doesn't appear to be another copy elsewhere.

: [http://www.0x04.net/doc/sysv/psABI-m8-16.pdf] found one. [[User:Shaddim|Shaddim]] ([[User talk:Shaddim|talk]]) 17:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

== Copyright non-compliance re this page ==

[http://www.file-extensions.org/elf-file-extension-executable-and-linkable-format-file File-extensions.org] has copied text from this article but has not credited Wikipedia as it should (see [[Wikipedia:Text of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License]]). Wikipedia does not actively challenge these sort of websites, but significant contributors to the copied text '''can'''. I have never edited this page, but if anyone has added a significant amount to the article, then you can challenge the website. The guide for this can be found at [[Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks#Non-compliance process]]. —[[User:Half price|<font color="goldenrod">'''Half'''</font>]] [[User talk:Half price|<font color="saddlebrown">'''Price'''</font>]] 12:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

== False claims about the original developer of ELF in the article ==

The article claims ELF has been developed by USL, but it rather was an initiative from Sun Microsystems to abandon both a.out and COFF on SVr4. I've been on a talk from Bill Joy in December 1988 at the Sun User Group Conference where he even explained details of ELF before the Svr4 project begun. [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 10:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

:As usual, the focus is on [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], i.e., <em>published</em>. Your comment does not suggest a suitable source by which the topic can be improved. [[User:Tedickey|TEDickey]] ([[User talk:Tedickey|talk]]) 17:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

::We all know about your problematic relation to reliable sources. Do you have a reliable source that verifies ELF as a AT&T invention? [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 13:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Hello! Well, this is what the [http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/elf/elf.pdf#page=3 ELF specification] says on its page three:

:::: The Executable and Linking Format was originally developed and published by UNIX System Laboratories (USL) as part of the Application Binary Interface (ABI). The Tool Interface Standards committee (TIS) has selected the evolving ELF standard as a portable object file format that works on 32-bit Intel Architecture environments for a variety of operating systems.

::: ... and that's what the article's lead section says as well. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Dsimic#nobold|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Dsimic|contribs]]) 06:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

::::A document that is in conflict with historical facts is not trustworthy. Note that the document mentions all kind of company names but omits Sun Microsystems. It would be nice if the article did follow historical facts, e.g. that Bill Joy mentioned ELF and DWARF in 1988 already on a Sun User Group conference as something that Sun was at least a co-author. [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 11:21, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

::::: Totally understood, but we would need a reference that provides such information. Tried to search for it a few minutes ago, but unfortunately found nothing that even mentions ELF in the context of a 1988 Sun User Group meeting. Any chances, please, for a reference? &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Dsimic#nobold|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Dsimic|contribs]]) 11:55, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

:::::: I understand the problem and the wish to have something written to prove the statement. In 1988, even in the US there have been very few people with internet access, so there is also few hope to find something related in the internet. On the other side, there are several hundered people here that have been at that Solaris User Group meeting and it may be that one or more from these people read WP. [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 21:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

::::::: Yes, that's quite an issue, as many not-so-grandiose things back from those days simply haven't been covered well or at all. Unfortunately, I don't see how could we "turn" such things into what Wikipedia considers to be reliable sources. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Dsimic#nobold|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Dsimic|contribs]]) 22:36, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

::::::::It is probably hard to find a reliable source for the talk from Bill Joy on the Sun User Group meeting. This is however no reason to keep an unreliable source (corrently even without a hint about it's questionable content) and a derived statement about the initiator of the ELF format. A trustworthy encyclopedia cannot keep such questionable claims uncommented. [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 14:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

::::::::: Any chances, please, for clarifying a bit why do you find the [http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/elf/elf.pdf#page=3 ELF specification] to be an unreliable source? &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Dsimic|Dsimic]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Dsimic#nobold|talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Dsimic|contribs]]) 14:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

::::::::::I mentioned already why this ELF document is not trustworthy: It is a well known fact that Sun Microsystems was at least a co-developer of the ELF format, even if we do not regard the talk from Bill Joy at the Sun User Group conference in 1988. Well, the debug format associated with ELF is called DWARF and AT&T would not use such names (see e.g. the two incidents with SVr4 enforced by AT&T: AT&T forced Sun to rename the kernel internal function as_hole() to as_gap() and AT&T removed the following troff comment from the tunefs man page:

.\" Take this out and a Unix Demon will dog your steps from now until

.\" the time_t's wrap around.

::::::::::just before the text:

You can tune a file system, but you can't tune a fish.

::::::::::So you see that there is no humor inside AT&T that would make a name like DAWRF a plausible AT&T idea next to "ELF". Let me repeat the other argument as well: Why should a document like the ELF document in question be trustworthy if it mentions all companies but Sun Microsystems? [[User:Schily|Schily]] ([[User talk:Schily|talk]]) 18:27, 30 December 2014 (UTC)