Talk:Mozart's compositional method: Difference between revisions

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==One composer's testimony==

I am a professional composer myself,having studied composition and music under world wide known authorities./Peter Van Grob,Zdenek Bilek,ao/

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Hi Adam-

<p> I am a fellow composer and I would have to disagree with you. The article pretty accurately describes the basic human compositional method and provides evidence to show this is indeed how Mozart composed (at least part of the time). It is a very common thing for non musical people to embellish or set apart composers like Mozart as 'genius' and to give him certain qualities, almost deify him to the point where he seems truly different from other composers and therefore must have composed in a very "divinely inspired" method. Truth be told, no one composes like this. Inspiration strikes at any time, yes, but it takes very hard work and dedication to coax development from a kernel of an idea and to turn that into a piece of music. It is almost certain that although Mozart could hear the notes in his head (as most composers can) he did need a piano to work them out (as most composers do). It kind of seems like you are taking this "Divine Genius" view of Mozart and trying to apply it to yourself, basically saying "I am a genius too and compose in this way and therefore I believe Mozart did as well". Mozart's music is beautiful and above all has an inevitability which is a hallmark of "classical music". From a listeners stand point it is easy to hear a piece that sounds 'inevitable' and think "wow these parts must have been composed all at once and what a genius it would take to hear all these parts" but the truth is, he worked out each part, each melody the same way everyone else does- one part at time over a period of time.

-Simon Cleveland. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.177.249.74|71.177.249.74]] ([[User talk:71.177.249.74|talk]]) 18:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

The observation of Adam has to do with a partial view about the process of composition. I learned "traditionally" harmony and counterpoint "at the table". I also can do it and wrote indeed many arrangements on the go, before the rehearsal. But after studying in France, I went to Germany and studied church music. And enlarged my views studying for me historical pedagogy of music. There in german church music and more typically before 1850, the composition was direved from improvisation, generally at the organ. There are many advantages to know compose on the spot at the keyboard, and generally speaking composers before this date learnedd composing at the harpsichord then the organ. [[Special:Contributions/186.31.218.229|186.31.218.229]] ([[User talk:186.31.218.229|talk]]) 16:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

==Followup==

Hi everyone.

I'll take issue with Adam's statements because I think they are out of context. The subject for debate isn't the question of "how can one compose music?", but rather, "how did Mozart prefer to compose?" Adam has stated that he doesn't need a keyboard but this isn't relevant to whether Mozart needed (or preferred to have) one. If it is indeed true that the letter Rochlitz presented is in fact a forgery, then we have no evidence as to how Mozart composed other than the fact that hundreds of his sketches survive and that he mentioned in multiple letters that he wasn't writing music at his own apartment for lack of a keyboard there. Unless these letters referred specifically to keyboard music, which he may have preferred to write while having an instrument at hand to check the difficulty of performing the passages, then we have to conclude that he used the keyboard while composing music in general. Since it is known that he improvised very fluently and creatively at the keyboard, perhaps it can be inferred that he began his general composition process by doing that.

-David Perry <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dperry9|Dperry9]] ([[User talk:Dperry9|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dperry9|contribs]]) 21:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Thank you. I agree completely with your two main points: we should focus on Mozart himself, and we should go with the documentary evidence. [[User:Opus33|Opus33]] ([[User talk:Opus33|talk]]) 23:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

== Constanze's strategic preservation of Mozart's unfinished manuscripts ==

The article states:

:"Although many of these [sketches] have not survived, having been destroyed by Mozart's widow [[Constanze Mozart|Constanze]],<ref name="Solomon 1995, 310">Solomon 1995, 310</ref> about 320 sketches and drafts are extant, covering about 10 percent of the composer's work.<ref name="Solomon 1995, 310"/>"

Cornell University Library's Division of Rare & Manuscript Collections makes [http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/mozart/compose.htm a distinction] slighted by that "many" and by the subordinate mention of Constanze's activity:

:"In the 1790s Constanze Mozart made a fateful decision about her late husband's musical manuscripts: those containing sketches or drafts of unrealized works would be kept for possible completion by others, while those containing sketches or drafts of completed works could be discarded."

This description is consistent with what the [[Constanze_Mozart#After_Mozart.27s_death|article on Constanze]] has to say, with due citation, about her role in promoting Mozart's work after his death (and for that matter with Mozart's own apparent view of unfinished works as assets to be completed only when an "occasion" [read: payment] presented itself). Without this context, Constanze's "destruction" seems simply stupid or wanton. I think the following could help avoid the mistaken inference (if not implication):

:"Mozart's widow [[Constanze Mozart|Constanze]] preserved manuscripts of his incomplete works, while discarding those of works already fully realized.<ref name="Solomon 1995, 310">Solomon 1995, 310</ref> About 320 sketches and drafts survive, covering about 10 percent of the composer's work.<ref name="Solomon 1995, 310"/>"

Assuming Solomon does not misstate the facts, I have left the citations undisturbed without checking whether the first one is apposite. I have done my best not to lengthen the sentence unduly, or make it argumentative, while adhering to verifiable assertions. Finally, I propose the alteration for review and discussion rather than making it myself because it is clear that the article is well edited and curated. As a nonspecialist, I did not wish to barge in and create distraction or controversy.

Best to all,

[[User:Douglas Michael Massing|Michael]] ([[User talk:Douglas Michael Massing|talk]]) 23:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Mention (allude to) the Rochlitz forgery in the lead? ==

"Nineteenth century views on this topic were often based on a romantic, mythologizing conception of the process of composition. More recent scholarly study has attempted to address the issue through systematic examination of the surviving letters and documents, and has arrived at rather different conclusions."

I am enough of a materialist to regret no reference to the Rochlitz forgery in the lead, e.g.:

:Nineteenth century views on this topic were often based on a romantic, mythologizing conception of the process of composition. Such mythmaking included promulgation and acceptance of a letter, later found to be [[Mozart%27s_compositional_method#The_Rochlitz_letter|a forgery]], purporting to represent Mozart's own description of his compositional process. More recent scholarship addresses this issue through systematic examination of authenticated letters and documents, and has arrived at rather different conclusions.

Just a reaction as a reader/user. Same disclaimers as above.

[[User:Douglas Michael Massing|Michael]] ([[User talk:Douglas Michael Massing|talk]]) 00:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks, I put it in. [[User:Opus33|Opus33]] ([[User talk:Opus33|talk]]) 06:36, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks, Opus 33! [[User:Douglas Michael Massing|Michael]] ([[User talk:Douglas Michael Massing|talk]]) 20:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

:::I just noticed that while Rochlitz is no longer mentioned in the lead, the addition of the word "authenticated" unobtrusively suggests lack of authentication for some sources, without getting bogged down in a particular controversy. Well done! [[User:Douglas Michael Massing|Michael]] ([[User talk:Douglas Michael Massing|talk]]) 06:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

== Use of a keyboard ==

Is the sentence "''Mozart evidently needed a keyboard to work out his musical thoughts''" something that can be sourced or is it an editor's own deduction based on the data given in that section? <small><font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact </font><font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">[[User:Basemetal|Basemetal]]</font> <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">[[User talk:Basemetal|here]]</font></small> 02:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

== Misunderstanding sources ==

I think in this article sources were misunderstood, not properly used or are lacking.

(1) "Mozart evidently needed a keyboard to work out his musical thought." No source is citated for such a serious sentence: I personally don't agree and I never read this in any Mozart biography I know, so I think a source is needed. The author of this article cannot make any "deduction" unless he has a publication to indicate.

(2) "On one occasion, Mozart evidently used his improvisational ability to bolster his limitations in sight-reading." This seems absolutely wrong! The citated Grétry doesn't prove anything else than Mozart's improvisational ability. Playing different passages could have been deliberate. This source does not in any sense link improvisation to lack of memory.

(3) "One may perhaps question whether in these instances Mozart retained the entire keyboard part note for note in his head; given the independent testimony (above) for his ability to fill in gaps through improvisation..." I'm afraid the author of this article doesn't know music at all. There's no possibility nor any need to retain by memory any piece of music "note for note", just as this is not the way human memory works. (I write "human" because I do not share the author's opinion that retaining a piece by memory would be something "quasi-miracolous" or "superhuman", nor I think this idea should be suggested in an encyclopedia. Retaining a piece by memory is not what scholars mean with "prodigious memory", just as it isn't anything special.) Retaining any piece of music, and most of all a classical one, involves schematic thought - not single-element-memory.

(4) "In particular, the use of keyboards and sketches to compose, noted above, would not have been necessary for a composer who possessed superhuman memory. (...) Another instance of Mozart's powerful memory concerns his memorization and transcription of Gregorio Allegri's "Miserere" in the Sistine Chapel as a 14-year-old. Here again, various factors suggest great skill on Mozart's part, but not a superhuman miracle: the work in question is somewhat repetitive, and that Mozart was able to return to hear another performance, correcting his earlier errors. Maynard Solomon suggests that Mozart may have seen another copy earlier." Extremely superficial and narrow.

I hope this article will be rewritten soon, as it's not in any sense a sufficient dissertation.

[[User:Armandotomin|Armandotomin]] ([[User talk:Armandotomin|talk]]) 20:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

== My thoughts ==

Mozart has to be a strong problem solver and critical thinker in my eyes. Creating such large-scale interconnected works requires I assume a certain patience, persistence, and ability to plan-out such works [[User:Adamilo|Adamilo]] ([[User talk:Adamilo|talk]]) 01:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)