Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

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Latest revision as of 14:30, 6 June 2024

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! scope="col" style="width:8em;" | Country

! scope="col" | Purpose

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="January">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="February">F</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="March">M</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="April">A</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="May">M</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="June">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="July">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="August">A</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="September">S</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="October">O</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="November">N</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="December">D</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="January">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="February">F</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="March">M</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="April">A</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="May">M</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="June">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="July">J</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="August">A</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="September">S</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="October">O</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="November">N</abbr>

! scope="col" style="width:1em;" | <abbr title="December">D<abbr>

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! scope="row" | [[Australia]]

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Why does this "tutorial" include information that you only see if you "hover" over it, in direct contravention of [[WP:ACCESS]] which states "Do not use techniques that require interaction to provide information, such as tooltips or any other "hover" text."? [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 19:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

:The mouseover effect comes from the use of the html tag <ttcode><nowiki><abbr></nowiki></ttcode>. A screen reader will then read correctly the months abbreviated into a letter (JFMAMJJASOND). The use of the <ttkbd>alt</ttkbd> parameter for images also causes hover effect. --[[User:Anneyh|Anneyh]] ([[User talk:Anneyh|talk]]) 10:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

::Okay, so this is a little confusing because the screen reader will read JFM etc without the tooltips. The guidance saying to '''not''' use tooltips/hover tips etc seems strange in light of the example which moves from plain text to text with tooltips/hover tips. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 10:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

:::In the case of JAWS, it won't expand the abbreviations in the &lt;abbr&gt; element unless the user asks it to do so. Unfortunately, it also gives no indication that there is a tooltip. IMO use of the abbr element is harmless, but not usually benificial, for JAWS users. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 14:25, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

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== References ==

</pre>

Removing the L3 headings results in an inability to navigate quickly to the table from the TOC. I have a copy of JAWS on my PC and replacement of L3 headings with table captions seems to be an issue because it takes longer to find the required table using JAWS. In the first example it's possible to jump directly to the table, while in the second it's necessary for JAWS to read each table's header information. At [[Two and a Half Men (season 9)#Ratings]], for example, JAWS says "Table with eleven columns and twenty-six rows" before it says "U.S. Nielsen and DVR ratings" At this point the reader is forced to manually skip to the next table where they'll hear "Table with four columns and ten rows", after which they hear "Canadian ratings". After deciding that's not the table that they want they have to manually skip to the next table again and so on. Restoring the section headings eliminates this but then there is another issue, that of heading/caption redundancy. If there is already a section heading and the first or only content in the section being a table, why is a caption needed? It's only one more thing that the reader is bombarded with. The section heading already tells you what the content of the table is, so the table caption seems redundant in this case. There are certainly a lot of cases where captions should be included ([[Sydney#Demographics|This]] is one) but there are cases where they're unnecessary, and in some cases detrimental to improving accessibility. I think this needs to be pointed out in the MOS, as a lot of editors believe that they're mandatory. --<fontspan style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#fee72c 0em 0em 0.8em,gold -0.8em -0.8em 0.9em,#1D6B00 0.7em 0.7em 0.8em;color:#000000">[[User:AussieLegend2|AussieLegend]] ([[User talk:AussieLegend2#top|<big>✉</big>]])</fontspan> 03:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

:You have a good point AussieLegend, thanks for having spent this much effort to bring valuable information. :-)

:Before changing MOS guidelines we have to do further analysis and gather more input. Especially because there are two ways to look at this issue. The first is the one you described, where our tables might create a problem for JAWS users. The second is that JAWS may not behave is it should, and perhaps it should spek the table header first. Or provide an easier way to navigate tables. Maybe other screen readers are better at this. Who knows, there might be more things to take into account here.

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::::::Just like Elizium23, I support RexxS proposal. I recall several heated discussions about table captions redundant with headings. Editors are reluctant to create redundancies, thus it is an obstacle to the adoption of this guideline.

::::::However, I would prefer to keep both the headings and the table caption. Because they are both semantically correct and useful. We could visually hide redundant table captions with a style like "top:-100000px". Hiding things "left" breaks RTL compatibility, but hiding things "top" does not break anything as far as I know. I'm normally reluctant to display such ugly tricks to the community of editors - fearing that they may reuse the technique in a bad way. I hope that hiding the code in a template and displaying a warning that it should not be used for other purpose without approval should provide sufficient protection though. What do you say? [[User:Dodoïste|Dodoïste]] ([[User talk:Dodoïste|talk]]) 22:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I don't really see any problem with including a table caption when there is any text between the heading and the table, even one or two sentences seems "substantial" enough in most cases. An editor recently went through [[The Big Bang Theory]] season articles, adjusting column widths so they'd appear consistent in [[List of The Big Bang Theory episodes]]. (Column widths are an issue for articles being nominated for "Featured" status.) He also added captions to the episode tables, which is appropriate at [[The Big Bang Theory (season 1)#Episodes]] and even [[The Big Bang Theory (season 4)#Episodes]], even though though the season 4 article includes only two lines at 1280px width. The table caption is redundant at [[The Big Bang Theory (season 6)#Episodes]], but use of the caption is consistent with the five other season articles, so even the use of {{tl|main}} in that article seems "substantial enough" text to justify use of the caption. --<fontspan style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#fee72c 0em 0em 0.8em,gold -0.8em -0.8em 0.9em,#1D6B00 0.7em 0.7em 0.8em;color:#000000">[[User:AussieLegend2|AussieLegend]] ([[User talk:AussieLegend2#top|<big>✉</big>]])</fontspan> 00:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

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