Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing: Difference between revisions
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{{notice|header=This case is now closed and pages relating to it may no longer be watched|
*To request an amendment or clarification of an arbitration decision, see [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment]].
*To report a violation of an arbitration decision, see [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement]].
*To request the assistance of an arbitration clerk, see [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Clerks]].}}{{Casenav|case name=Skepticism and coordinated editing|clerk1=Dreamy Jazz|clerk2=Amortias|clerk3=MJL|draft arb=Barkeep49|draft arb2=Izno|draft arb3=L235|draft arb4=|active=12|inactive=3|recused=0||scope=Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics}}
== Clarification on the scope ==
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:@[[User:A. C. Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]], John is correct. All of the above can be submitted as evidence. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 15:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
::Thanks for the quick replies, {{u|Johnuniq}} and {{u|Barkeep49}} :) [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 15:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
:So I'm confused - the accepts sure looked like the arbs wanted to restrict this to behavior of editors, and the case title is in line with that, but the case scope adds on "editing behavior," which basically expands the case to the entire topic area. We see this on the evidence page - mostly discussions of possible coordinated editing, but also two sections focusing on Roxy. So is the intent to examine behavior of the topic area as a whole now? [[User:GeneralNotability|GeneralNotability]] ([[User talk:GeneralNotability|talk]]) 01:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::My section on Roxy is from discussions in the recent GSoW/COI/NPOV dust up, just diffs from outside of the few discussions I was outlining the issues with. I assume that keeps it topical. That's why I didn't include their incivility and edit warring over [[Ariel Fernandez]] in the same time period. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::I will reply in [[#Scope?]]. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 23:55, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
== Should Gronk Oz be added to the case as a party? ==
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:::::No one is on trial. Coordinated editing would be if editor A is reverted, then A gets like-minded editors B and possibly C to assist restoring A's text. That might happen in fact (A did canvass B and C), or it might happen because A, B and C watch each other and cooperate. The case request is archived at [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing/Preliminary statements|Preliminary statements]]. It shows the claims that were made such as whether inappropriate off-wiki coordination has occurred and whether GSoW has violated any Wikipedia policies. Other claims concern possible violations of [[WP:COI]]. That has been summed up in the scope of "Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics" shown on the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing|main case page]]. Anyone can respond to claims made at the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing/Evidence|evidence page]] but responses should be brief and focused on edits that have occurred, with links. Private evidence will not be shared. It's obvious what that is about, namely an editor has (it is claimed) linked to a reference that they themselved wrote. The private evidence will contain opinions regarding that. In principle, it could be any information that would not be suitable for public hearing. When anyone's history is examined, defects are always found. The question for Arbcom will concern the big picture of whether GSoW helps or harms the development of articles that comply with policies such as [[WP:DUE]] and [[WP:BLP]]. Others will list every claimed defect, so you may like to show some edits that are good, or refute some of the claims. A key question will be whether there are recent defects (in the last few months) and whether attempts to remove defects have been hindered by GSoW participants. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 03:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::So to be clear "Statement by GeneralNotability" with the three questions that I answered in my first statement is what this is all about? The evidence that is presented is to answer those questions? And do I address each of the pieces of evidence, one at a time? So you say that no one is on trial, but it does sound like GSoW is on trial. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 03:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:Hi Sgerbic, I've seen these questions. We (the drafters) will try to have some answers for you tomorrow (as I need to sleep). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 06:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:Hi @[[User:Sgerbic|Susan]]. There is no one right way to present evidence and the general principles of good writing tend to apply: be concise and clear and backup your writing with evidence. In terms of scope, I think you're aware of the concerns expressed about GSoW and your editing in past discussions. You can also see the evidence others are providing. Focusing on responding to those, and providing evidence of any misconduct you've seen from the other parties, would be' ''one'' reasonable approach. You start with 1000 words and 100 diffs for your evidence, which would include any rebuttal evidence. Traditionally the committee has been fairly willing to grant reasonable exceptions (for instance we're about to grant an extra 250 words to someone), you would just need to ask. In terms of private evidence, I will need to get back to you. I think I've touched on all your big questions, but I'm sure I might have missed something important or you might have follow-ups. Please ask. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 14:48, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
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:Sorry about the edit conflict Barkeep - So can you please explain if I'm responding to everything during the evidence phase? Or do I wait till the non-evidence (whatever criteria that is) is removed? Otherwise this is going to become quite tedious and me generally saying, "that's not how it happened and here is the context of the issue" and that will get even longer. I've tried to explain our training procedure on one of these giant lists of text on one of these admin groups - I believe it is also listed on the Sgerbic user page. I may present evidence of the pages that I have written, but I can't out my team, so it is up to them if they want to do so. But I expect it will be done privately as we mainly edit in main space and rarely deal with admin areas, thus avoiding drama. Already with all these comments my percentage of edits to main space is dropping. I have a page sitting here on my desktop that badly needs a rewrite, but I have lost all appetite for getting work done. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 21:26, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::You should not feel a need to respond to every piece of evidence. A couple of strategies are you can respond to representative examples or group by a theme and respond to those themes. If something would be apparently baseless you can also trust that the arbs will see that. If you feel like you've explained certain things, like training, it is worthwhile to link to that diff. Beyond that I'd encourage you to take a (re-)look at [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide_to_arbitration#Open_cases]] and [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide_to_arbitration#Evidence_and_argumentation]] which have advice for you on topics we've been discussing. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 22:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
== Extending the time for evidence? ==
Hi! I think perhaps the case would be benefitted if an extra week is given to the evidence gathering period so that Sgerbic can fully participate in the case. I understand that this process is being incredibly stressful to her, and think that if she thinks 31st of January is too close a deadline for her to first learn more about how Arbcom works and then provide evidence/participate in the Workshop, it would be in the interest of the community that this deadline is extended. Her perspective in this case is of the highest value, and if she is impaired in her ability to express her opinions on the matter fully then that will have a negative effect on the quality of the case's resolution. [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 22:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
:No - I think I have it now - last thing I want is for this to continue a day longer than necessary. [[User:Sgerbic|Sgerbic]] ([[User talk:Sgerbic|talk]]) 22:58, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::That's fair. Just thought I'd ask :) [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 23:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
::Right? What's worse than an arbcom case? A more drawn out arbcom case. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 23:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
== Related discussion ==
[[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 155#Wiki editing organisation]] --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 08:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
== Scope? ==
Re: "The scope of this case is: Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics.":
I read the above as being about coordinated editing in skepticism topics and the editing behavior of those doing the coordinated editing.
Some of those who have presented evidence seem to think that the scope includes any editing behavior in skepticism topics whether or not the editors are involved in coordinated editing.
Which is it?
Some of the evidence is simply a list of objectionable edits by a person without any claims that they in any way coordinated their editing with anyone else. In my opinion, such behavior should be handled by an ANI case naming the editor. The reasons given for accepting this case (private evidence and outing concerns) simply don't apply to a lone individual's edits. --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 01:22, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:The same way a clear cut COI case with an arb saying they had received convincing evidence of COI editing would be handled at the COI noticeboard in a discussion naming the editor? [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 01:29, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::If the evidence of COI is public, then the arb should indeed post it on COIN and let one of our non-arb admins handle it. If instead the evidence is only available to arbcom, then arbcom would have to handle it. Arbs are a scarce resource. They should not be wasted on anything that can be handled by an ordinary admin at COIN, BLPNB, ANI, etc.
::You (and anyone else offering evidence) can help the arbs by making clear whether the editor you are discussing is known to be part of GSoW, that you suspect they are, or that you have no evidence that they are. And of course the arbs may have private evidence and already know whether the editor is part of GSoW even if you and I don't. --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 02:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:::You mean something like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1063342503&diffmode=source this]? I feel you may not be fully aware of what led up to this case. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 02:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::::I believe that I ''am'' fully aware of what led up to this case.
::::The diff you just posted shows GeneralNotability (who is not an arbitrator) posting on COIN (which is not arbcon) about evidence of Rp2006 having a COI which cannot be posted without outing. Now Rp2006 is named in this case, as is GeneralNotability, and arbcom has the evidence. See [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing/Evidence#Rp2006 has engaged in WP:SELFCITE]]. All perfectly normal and expected behavior is such cases. Clearly something arbcom has to deal with.
::::Now compare the evidence posted about the behavior of Roxy the Dog. I see all sorts of claims about behavior but unless I am missing something nobody has posted a shred of evidence of GSoW membership or coordination with GSoW. Even if everything said about Roxy is true, why can't they be dealt with at ANI? The admins at ANI have been able to deal with Roxy just fine so far; see the block log at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3ARoxy+the+dog].
::::So again, if the scope of this case is any editing behavior in skepticism topics whether or not the editors are involved in coordinated editing, Roxy (and a couple of hundred other people) are in the scope.
::::But if the scope of this case is coordinated editing in skepticism topics and the editing behavior of those doing the coordinated editing, where is the evidence that Roxy has engaged in coordinated editing?
::::Arbs, which of the above is the scope of this case? --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 08:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::Whether he is a member or not, the character of his actions and the context in which they happen makes me believe that there is no practical difference whether he's a 'card-carrying member' of GSoW or not when determining if his actions are co-ordinated with GSoW members. I wish to analyze that further in the Workshop as part of the evidence analysis but thought it best to do so after the deadline. If your only issue with the evidence provided so far is the Roxy case I think that the current scope fits the case. [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 08:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::::::Thanks. Tell me if I am reading the above correctly. As I understand the answer, the scope of this case is "coordinated editing in skepticism topics and the editing behavior of those doing the coordinated editing", and the scope is not "anyone editing in skepticism topics", and the arbs want to evaluate whether Roxy has de-facto coordinated with GSoW members. Which seems quite reasonable. Did I get that right?
::::::So what if the decision is "absolutely no co-ordination with GSoW or anyone else, but definitely unacceptable behavior"? In that case does Roxy get arbcom sanctions for the bad behavior or do you refer him to ANI so the arbs can focus on GSoW-related behavior? I suspect that in a case that came back to them from arbcom ANI would give Roxy much harsher sanctions than arbcom would, but ANI sanctions are easier to appeal.
::::::Given the above hypothetical, I can see the appeal of "while {{they are|Roxy the Dog}} in front of us, might as well sanction them", but I can also see the appeal of "We all agree that there is no hint of GSoW coordination so let's not waste time even discussing out-of-scope behavior that ANI can handle just fine."
:::::: Also, there is a possibility of opening the door to gaming the system some time in the future. Let's say I think that User:example is being a real jerk, but ANI disagrees. I see an upcoming My Little Pony arbcom case, make a bogus claim that example is involved in MLP, and post evidence of a bunch of non-MLP wrongdoing. Arbcom decides no MLP involvement but sanctions Example for the unrelated misbehavior. --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 09:42, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:::::::I think the scope is more like "Editing behavior and potential coordinated editing in skepticism topics." They're have been a number of discussions, none with any clear outcomes. It's clear the community cannot handle this. Every thread becomes a morass, whether or not GSoW is the topic.
:::::::I don't find your example very persuasive. Take, instead, for example a situation where a user takes part in a number of discussions over two months, offering little but personal attacks and incivility. In many of these discussions other editors note that the topic should go before arbcom. The topic ends up at arbcom, and after opening statements saying that one of the reasons there are problems in the topic is that incivility and personal attacks are common. The example user is added as a party.
:::::::There's a pretty clear thread to follow through how things moved along. The community can't address the COI editing, or any other issues in the topic, because attempts are immediately met with attacks. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 10:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
{{od}} From my understanding it is not unusual for Arbcom to give out individual sanctions (e.g. topic bans) in cases such as the one you are describing above. Regarding your example, I think that arbs would quickly dismiss that claim. The only reason why I see analysis of Roxy's actions in the topic area as reasonable within the case's scope is his addition as a party to the case. The same way that I see the diff of my misbehavior that's been added to be warranted and beneficial to the case (although I myself am not connected to GSoW nor engaging in a "witch-hunt"). I think in this case as well it is quite clear that the community wouldn't be able to handle sub-issues going to ANI. I believe this because in the latest ANI thread ("Outing") ''and'' the COIN thread many experienced editors said they believed this should be dealt at arbcom due to how branching and contentious the discussions get, so I'd expect a similar response to say, discussing Roxy's behavior in ANI. [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 10:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:I do think that you asking for the case scope to be clarified is a good initiative, Guy Macon, so I hope I don't sound dismissive in my reply. [[User:A._C._Santacruz|A. C. Santacruz]] ⁂ [[User talk:A._C._Santacruz|Please ping me!]] 10:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
::Not at all. Very helpful. I still would like a definitive answer from an arb, of course. --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 17:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
:We had some discussion before opening the case (hence the delay) on the best title and way to scope this case.
:# The scope of the case is {{em|not}} all skepticism topics. This is for two reasons: 1) that's a broader scope than was evidenced as necessary in the request statements, and 2) we did not see a need to revisit [[WP:ARBPS]], which would have a strong overlap with skepticism as a whole.
:# The scope of the case {{em|includes}} GSOW per the case request. This is the predominant reason for the "coordinated editing" in the case name and scope as well as the reference to skepticism in the case name.
:# The scope of the case is not {{em|just}} GSOW. We saw in the case statements that there were other editors whose behavior needed to be examined (later named as parties) that indicated unresolved conduct disputes. This is the predominant reason for the "editing behavior" in the case scope and skepticism in the case name and scope.
:At the end of the day, named parties are directly in scope, in so far as their editing crosses into topics related to skepticism. We are particularly interested in evidence of (problematic) coordinated editing in the topic area (regardless of whether it concerns a named party). Beyond that, we welcome evidence of problematic conduct if it is near the locus of items 2 and 3 above.
:We realize that's not the brightest set of lines. If other evidence indicates other problematic conduct in the area exists, it is reasonable to submit it as part of the arbitration process, part of which is to let people submit what they think is important for the arbitrators to review for issues.
:I hope that sufficiently answers questions of scope. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 00:21, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
::Very clear, and answered all of my questions. Thanks! --[[User:Guy Macon Alternate Account|Guy Macon Alternate Account]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon Alternate Account|talk]]) 19:52, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
== L235 added as a drafter ==
Just wanted to formally announced that {{u|L235}} has joined {{u|Izno}} and I as a drafter for this case. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 21:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
== PD extended one week ==
Hi all. Due to the press of business, the drafters are extending the estimate for the posting of our proposed decision in this case by one week. For the Committee, '''[[User:L235|KevinL]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]] '''·''' [[User talk:L235#top|t]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 03:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
== Added principles of this case ==
Just as a note, I have added the principles from this case to [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Principles]]. Feel free to edit the index to correct any errors I may have put accidentally. Thank you. [[Special:Contributions/2601:647:5800:1A1F:20EC:5F67:ED8B:DBEC|2601:647:5800:1A1F:20EC:5F67:ED8B:DBEC]] ([[User talk:2601:647:5800:1A1F:20EC:5F67:ED8B:DBEC|talk]]) 05:47, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
== Block of Rp2006 ==
:'''[[Special:Permalink/1230295221#Block of Rp2006|Original discussion]]'''
{{atop|1=Motion adopted. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 21:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)}}
{{ivmbox|The Arbitration Committee assumes the block of {{user|Rp2006}}.}}
'''Enacted''' - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 21:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
'''Support:'''
#A [[Special:Diff/1229647244&oldid=1229611424|consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE]] recently decided to block Rp2006 for violations of their topic ban coming immediately after the expiration of ArbCom's 1 month block of them. This is an indefinite block, with the first year being Arbitration Enforcement. Given the private evidence we have, I think it makes sense for ArbCom to assume responsibility for this block. I also would like to see extra scrutiny applied to any unblock request rather than having it go through the typical process if Rp2006 were to apply after a year when the AE part of the block expires. {{u|Seraphimblade}}, the blocking administrator (acting on the AE consensus), has [[Special:Diff/1229662830|no objections]] to us doing this. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 14:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
# my personal preference would be to call this a ban and let them appeal in 12 months, but this works too --[[User:Guerillero|Guerillero]] <sup>[[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color: green;">Parlez Moi</span>]]</sup> 17:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
# [[User:ToBeFree|~ ToBeFree]] ([[User talk:ToBeFree|talk]]) 18:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
# Given that there is private information that should be considered when addressing any future unblock requests. - [[User:Aoidh|Aoidh]] ([[User talk:Aoidh|talk]]) 13:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
# [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
# [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 08:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
'''Oppose:'''
#
'''Abstain:'''
#
=== Arbitrator views and discussions ===
=== Community discussion ===
As a note, if this passes I'll tack it onto the remedies list for [[WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing|SCE]] in my notes as the previous block against Rp2006 was also under that case and based on what I can grok from the AE thread this block was levied for pretty much the same reasons as the previous. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[User:Jéské Couriano/AG|threads]] [[User:Jéské Couriano/Decode|critiques]]</small></sup> 18:52, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}
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