Template talk:Programming languages: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 23:35, 15 November 2004

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== History of this box ==

{{WikiProject Computing}}

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{{archives}}

== Deleted ==

Initially, this box was placed on [[C programming language]] and some other articles by [[User: Lee1026]]. It seems like a useful addition, so I converted it to a template and proceeded to add it to the bottom of all articles it lists. It is certainly somewhat biased in what languages it includes — but feel free to edit, as long as it remains relatively small. [[User:Dcoetzee|Deco]] 21:01, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This template has been deleted per [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_25#Template:Major_programming_languages]]. I have left the talk page in place if people want to discuss alternatives to this template. —''[[User:R._Koot|Ruud]]'' 20:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

:I was one who originally wanted to delete this template because of its inherit POV issues, but ultimately I agreed with other editors on a compromise of using this template as a navigation aid. I do agree that the template had gotten out of hand as fans of non-major languages kept inserting their favorite languages. I would have voted to keep and fix the inclusion criteria (as I had lobbied to do at another time, but was shot down). At any rate, I am sad that as a significant editor of this template, I was not notified that the template was up for deletion. Wikipedia needs to be changed to make it a requirement that all past editors are notified when something is brought up for deletion consideration. &mdash; [[User:Stevietheman|<span style="color:white; background-color: green;">&nbsp;'''Stevie is the man!'''&nbsp;</span>]] ^{[[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]]} 19:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

== Language inclusion criteria ==

::You didn't follow the deletion discussion? [[User:Mkb218|matt kane&#39;s brain]] 21:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

''<nowiki>[The article]</nowiki> is certainly somewhat biased in what languages it includes &mdash; but feel free to edit, as long as it remains relatively small''. --Deco, above

:::I didn't know it was up for deletion. I don't watch all articles I've ever edited. I like to maintain my sanity. :) &mdash; [[User:Stevietheman|<span style="color:white; background-color: green;">&nbsp;'''Stevie is the man!'''&nbsp;</span>]] ^{[[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]]} 22:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

:Thanks for the invitation -- but beware; someone might take it up :) On a more serious note, I personally would bring the inclusion of e.g. ''Haskell'' into question. What criteria should we use? In any case, I think we'd better restrict the number of languages in this particular "in crowd" to the ones with a ''very'' significant number of users all around the world. Now, how to determine ''N_users'' ... --[[User:Wernher|Wernher]] 21:43, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

_khkuuhku

::::Oh, I thought that you meant you were the one who nominated it for deletion. Is it forbidden to bring it back now? [[User:Mkb218|matt kane&#39;s brain]] 12:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:::::If something has been deleted, it is generally not a good idea to try to resurrect it, unless perhaps all the problems discussed in the deletion process are resolved. &mdash; [[User:Stevietheman|<span style="color:white; background-color: green;">&nbsp;'''Stevie is the man!'''&nbsp;</span>]] ^{[[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]]} 17:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:Oops, forgot: also include ''historically'' very significant languages, I guess. --[[User:Wernher|Wernher]] 21:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:One idea that came to me is that perhaps we should have a template that linked to '''families''' of programming language, with the actual languages linked on those articles. It is ''usually'' easier to get people to agree on a classification of a language than it is to get them to agree on its notability, and things can always be in two lists if necessary. [[User:GreenReaper|GreenReaper]] 18:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:: My criterion was just that I'd heard of it (I'm only unsure about SAS). Originally, Lee1026 included the following text above the box: "The following are major programming languages used by at least several thousand programmers worldwide". This seems rather difficult to verify. I'd say any language given a significant treatment in a textbook on programming languages is probably good (like Pascal, ML, Lisp, FORTRAN, Prolog, C, C++ have.) All "mainstream" languages qualify, and we more or less know what those are (mainly, Java, C, C++, VB, maybe Delphi). We could even factor in Wikipedia page visit counts. I think it will ultimately come down to a case-by-case treatment. The most important thing, though, is that it remains exclusive enough so that it is small enough to be useful and avoid clutter. [[User:Dcoetzee|Deco]] 21:57, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:I'm the template creator. I was not aware that the template was up for deletion, although I had been watching it, but I rather expected it to get deleted eventually - although I believe it was a useful navigation aid, it was too subjective. As for linking to proglang families, adding more clicks to reach common articles of interest compromises its role as a navigation aid. Maybe it would be better to define a similar template using a purely objective criterion such as statistics research listing the number of programmers who know/use a language. Whatever. [[User:Deco|Deco]] 20:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

:::Your criteria above corresponds very much with my own, so there's two wikipedians -- couple of thousand other opinionated prog lang interested geeks soon to pitch in with their say :) I have done some preliminary(?) trimming already, removing some very ___domain-specific languages and some with that characteristic as well as being tied to specific companies. --[[User:Wernher|Wernher]] 22:20, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== merging template ==

::::Okay, looks good to me, just make sure that the box is kept only on pages of those languages in the box. I don't agree, though, with the exclusion of Eiffell, Haskell, or especially OCaml; they're all general-purpose languages used quite widely (admittedly, OCaml is a dialect of ML, but this isn't quite as obvious as the fact that [[Common Lisp]] is a dialect of Lisp). All four give 300K+ Google hits together with the word "language", and in my own experience they're popular in a number of significant circles in schools and industry. IDL is also used widely in industry, even if it isn't general-purpose. I added these four back. [[User:Dcoetzee|Deco]] 22:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

suggest merging with the following [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Programming_language template]

{{Navbox

|name = Programming language

|title = [[Programming language]]s

|group1 = General Topics

:::::I removed OCaml exactly for the reason you mentioned -- readers will find that one immediately via ML, so I think it should be left out of the box, like Common Lisp. Talking of removal, I'll now remove Modula, which only gets half as many hits as the ones you mention and because its predecessor Pascal is much more important historically as well as in terms of user community incl education. Generally, most of the other 'boxed' languages in use today give millions of hits (even SAS, a quite 'lowly' one, gives ~1.5M, while LOGO gives ~11M, and ML as well as C# gives ~3M).

|list1 = [[History of programming languages|History]]{{·}} Generation: ([[First-generation programming language|1GL]] / [[second-generation programming language|2GL]] / [[third-generation programming language|3GL]] / [[fourth-generation programming language|4GL]] / [[fifth-generation programming language|5GL]]) {{·}} [[Low-level programming language|Low level]]{{·}} [[High-level programming language|High level]] [[Very high-level programming language|Very High level (abstraction)]]

|group2 = Types

:::::I must admit I still think Eiffel, Haskell and IDL should be removed based on their 'insignificance' historically and/or 'user base wise' compared to most of the other languages. And IDL describes a type/family of languages, doesn't it? BTW, I did delete the template from the articles of the languages I removed (or did I forget some?) ;-) --[[User:Wernher|Wernher]] 23:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

|list2 = [[Programming language|Programming]] · [[Specification language|Specification]] · [[Query language|Query]] · [[Markup language|Markup]] · [[Transformation language|Transformation]] · [[Template processor|Template processing]] · [[Hardware description language|Hardware description]] · [[Style sheet language|Stylesheet]] · [[Data modeling language|Data modeling]]

|group3 = Sub-types

:::::Presiceification/encyclopedical-editorial modification: if IDLs are actually to be defined as ''programming'' languages (as opposed to the more general class of ''computer'' languages), which I think is a valid question in itself, I agree that it/they should be included here (CORBA et al. are VIPLs, most certainly). As for historical significance, I actually think one might consider [[Simula]] (although I could be said to be slightly biased re that -- exactly why is left as an exercise for the reader :-] ), which arguably represented the birth of object-oriented programming (and which inspired [[Bjarne Stroustrup|Bjarne]] to create C++). --[[User:Wernher|Wernher]] 23:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

|list3 = [[Array programming|Array]] {{·}} [[Assembly language|Assembly]] {{·}} [[Compiled language|Compiled]] {{·}} [[Concurrent computing|Concurrent]] {{·}} [[Curly bracket programming language|Curly bracket]] {{·}} [[Data-oriented language|Data-oriented]] {{·}} [[Data-structured language|Data-structured]] {{·}} [[Dataflow programming|Dataflow]] {{·}} [[Declarative programming language|Declarative]] {{·}} [[Domain-specific programming language|Domain-specific]] {{·}} [[Esoteric programming language|Esoteric]] {{·}} [[Extension programming language|Extension]] {{·}} [[Functional programming|Functional]] {{·}} [[Imperative programming|Imperative]] {{·}} [[Interpreted language|Interpreted]] {{·}} [[Logic programming|Logic]] {{·}} [[Machine code|Machine]] {{·}} [[Macro (computer science)|Macro]] {{·}} [[Metaprogramming]] {{·}} [[Multi-paradigm programming language|Multi-paradigm]] {{·}} [[Non-English-based programming languages|Non-English-based]] {{·}} [[Object-oriented programming language|Object-oriented]] {{·}} [[Off-side rule]] {{·}} [[Pipeline programming|Pipeline]] {{·}} [[Procedural programming|Procedural]] {{·}} [[Prototype-based programming|Prototype-based]] {{·}} [[Reflection (computer science)|Reflective]] {{·}} [[Rule-based language|Rule-based]] {{·}} [[Scripting language|Scripting]] {{·}} [[Synchronous programming language|Synchronous]] {{·}} [[Visual programming language|Visual]]

|group4 = Other

|list4 = [[Non-English-based programming languages|Non-English-based]]

|group5 = List

|list5 = Lists by ([[Categorical list of programming languages|Categorical]]{{·}} [[Generational list of programming languages|Generational]] {{·}} [[Timeline of programming languages|Chronological]]{{·}} [[Alphabetical list of programming languages|Alphabetical]]){{·}} [[Comparison of programming languages|Comparison]]

}}<noinclude>

</noinclude>

--[[User:Ramu50|Ramu50]] ([[User talk:Ramu50|talk]]) 01:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

{{Programming language generations}}

{{Computer language}}

{{Programming language}}

--[[User:Ramu50|Ramu50]] ([[User talk:Ramu50|talk]]) 23:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

== Bash ==

Why is Bash listed as a language, rather than "shell script" or "bourne shell scripting"?

Bash is a single shell implementation.

It's not even used on many unixlikes: BSDs, etc.

== Lua ==

Looking at this, and I realize this is always an arbitrary point, but I wonder why [[Lua (programming language)|Lua]] is not included? [[User:Comrade Graham|Technopeasant]] ([[User talk:Comrade Graham|talk]]) 22:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

== Criteria and status ==

I am confused by [[#Deleted]], since recent edits have added invocations on several pages. Also, I don't see any discussion of criteria. Is there any reason not to list

* [[PL/I]]

* [[Rexx]]

* [[Raku (programming language)|Raku]] (Perl 6)

"Assembly" is listed as a language but it is actually a type of languages, and the syntax of assemblers varies drastically even for a single machine. [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 15:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

== Removing recent additions ==

I recently removed two languages that were added (cc {{u|Poppodoms}}), [[ArkTS]] and [[Cangjie (programming language)]], as they both very recent, [[Huawei]]-developed languages that as far as I know do not have wide usage and have not influenced other languages. My removal was reverted and so I'm opening a discussion here. I think if anyone else wants to remove them per [[WP:BRD]], that would be fine, otherwise I will remove them if there's no strong argument for retaining them in the next few days, also per [[WP:BRD]]. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 18:13, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

:That second criteria should be the argument to also remove Apple Swift, because it have also not influenced other languages, it is only Apple centric. And there other programming languages that have no wide usage that are on the list as well. So I challenge this argument [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 06:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

:If you want to make this site, this encyclopaedia that is part of it's objective, the free encyclopaedia with a global logo of symbols and languages. Make it global and objective for the world, the world to be informed in a changing emerging market with an emerging 3rd mobile platform with 900 million install base and 4% global market share outside 17% local market share over Apple iOS, then it should not be reduced to being US centric in this subject matter of programming languages, technologies, don't make it geopolitical nor "US/Western" only. You said, these new programming languages are "not significant" because it's "not widely used" = your assumption is "Chinese centric", "local", there are programming languages on the list from US and few European markets that are not "widely used" outside the United States and Western Europe, outside smaller western markets. So, make the list objective and keep Wikipedia global in wide information. I will continue to make the strong argument for this case and will continue to do so for the next few days until it is resolved in keeping this list at a balance, fair and objective list. [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 07:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

::i agree with poppodoms, he's right. [[User:XeVierTech|XeVierTech]] ([[User talk:XeVierTech|talk]]) 08:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

::The proper place for these two languages are in [[List of programming languages]] (which I notice you haven't added them to), not the limited space in the template. I agree that it's important to make sure the list isn't western-centric but nothing I've read suggests that either language comes close to overall impact as any of the other languages listed. [[ArkTS]], for example, is mostly cited to first-party sources and press release-style news.

::For example, if I noticed and thought about it how I happened to in this case, I probably would argue that [[Dart (programming language)]] should not be on the list, even though it's from Google and used as the language of Flutter. Lists like this are hard but more valuable to the reader if we keep them to languages that have had impact on programming languages in general, which Swift (partly due to its age now) has had. But we're not discussing every entry right now, just these two which are completely out of line compared to the others. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 12:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

:::Exactly, now you get it, that's all. Make it balanced. I get what you are saying, I agree with you when it comes to less notable like Dart. [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 12:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

::::Based my knowledge and some new searching, Dart (which is not currently in this template, to be clear) is significantly more notable, and impacts more platforms, than either language you added. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 13:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

:::::I am aware that Google's Dart is older and more notable than 2021 eTS (extended TypeScript)/now called ArkTS and recent 2024 Cangjie (after rumours of such in-house language since 2020). [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 13:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

::::::Dart is from 2011 [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 13:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

:::On the list of programming languages, yes it will be appropriate to add ArkTS and Cangjie on that link itself. [[User:Poppodoms|Poppodoms]] ([[User talk:Poppodoms|talk]]) 12:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

:I've removed them again per [[WP:BRD]], the discussion above, and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard&oldid=1234492060#User:Poppodoms the COIN discussion]. I think affirmative consensus should be needed to re-add these to languages going forward. [[User:Skynxnex|Skynxnex]] ([[User talk:Skynxnex|talk]]) 18:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)