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== Aspirated alveolar plosive ==
I don't know why we're transcribing it with {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}}, not {{angbr IPA|tˢ}} or {{angbr IPA|ts}}. Both Basbøll and Grønnum transcribe it phonetically as {{IPA|[d̥͡s]}}, so the reason it's described as "aspirated" in addition to affrication is clearly phonologically motivated—so that it's in line with {{IPA|/pʰ, kʰ/}}—not phonetically. {{angbr IPA|ˢ}} has the advantage of looking similar to {{angbr IPA|ʰ}}, but given it's non-IPA and now that we're transcribing {{IPA|/tʰj/}} with {{angbr IPA|tɕ}}, {{angbr IPA|ts}} seems the most logical choice to me. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 15:31, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Nardog}} Because {{angbr IPA|ʰ}} denotes devoicing of the following sonorant consonant or vowel, which does occur (see e.g. Basbøll). {{angbr IPA|ts}} doesn't, and {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}} is at the same level of narrowness as {{angbr IPA|tɕ}}, which is mostly transcribed with {{angbr IPA|tˢj}} or {{angbr IPA|tj}} in the literature (AFAIK). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 16:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
::Oh right, I didn't think of [t.s], which I assume does occur intervocalically and contrast with [tsʰ]. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 16:48, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
:::{{re|Nardog}} I don't think that contrast is very common, but yes, they do contrast (maybe in subminimal pairs?). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 16:54, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Kbb2}} Where does Basbøll say it's aspirated? On p. 60 it's only described as affricated, but not aspirated. I know [ʁ] gets devoiced when preceded by it, but that to me is all the more reason to regard the aspiration as something phonological, not phonetic. Or does one see a hiatus between the frication and a vowel in [tsʰa] etc. in waveforms? [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 04:43, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
::{{re|Nardog}} On pages 213 and 259. But on page 32 he says otherwise, I think. Grønnum (2005) also seems to say that varieties that affricate {{IPA|/tʰ/}} do it ''instead'' of aspirating it. {{IPA|/sj/}} becomes {{IPA|[ɕ]}} just like {{IPA|[tɕ]}} is used instead of {{IPA|[tsj]}}. This is also a feature of Dutch, which doesn't aspirate the fortis stops. So I think you're right, the aspiration diacritic is superfluous if not "wrong". The fricatives seem to devoice sonorants as well, e.g. in ''flaske'' {{IPA|[ˈfl̥æskə]}}. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 11:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
::And while we're at it, isn't {{IPA|/ts/}} a better phonemic transcription if the affricate is really unaspirated? After all, the phonemic close-mid and mid vowels are also kinda messy when it comes to transcription. If we're not gonna use {{angbr IPA|tʰ}} anywhere in phonetic IPA, maybe we should get rid of it, like we got rid of {{angbr IPA|r}}. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 16:38, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
:::{{re|Kbb2}} I don't think so. Didn't we just establish it can contrast with [t.s]? Anyway, I was in the wrong to think it wasn't aspirated: {{tq|The fricative noise is followed by a real aspiration...}} ([https://www.jstor.org/stable/44705403 Fischer-Jørgensen 1954]:52). You can indeed hear it in ''tak, tal'' on [https://sproghistorie.dk/lydsystem/ this page] (but not in ''tirsdag'', so it might still depend on speech rate/carefulness/vowel height/etc).
:::So my only remaining concern over using {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}} is its appropriateness when used before a consonant (which I believe can only be [ʁ] or [v]). Now that I think about it, Basbøll and Grønnum are probably using the tie bar in narrow transcription to distinguish it from [t.s]. And when linguists use {{angbr IPA|tˢ}} instead of {{angbr IPA|ts}}, {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}}, or what have you, I think they're trying to kill two birds with one stone: it's aspirated, both phonetically and phonologically, forming a natural class with /pʰ, kʰ/; it's affricated before a vowel, but not before a consonant (or coalesced before /j/), further indicating that it's underlyingly one segment. So I'm circling back to favoring {{angbr IPA|tˢ}}, in both IPA-da and phonemic transcriptions. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 01:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
::::It is affricated before {{IPA|/ʁ/}} (listen to ''træt'' and ''traktor'', which feature an alveolar affricate followed by a voiceless uvular fricative), and apparently also before {{IPA|/v/}} ([https://forvo.com/word/tvetydig/#da]). If {{IPA|/v/}} is devoiced here then this follows the behavior of {{IPA|/v/}} (or {{IPA|/ʋ/}}) in Swedish and Dutch (Polish too :P), which is also devoiced after {{IPA|/t/}}. So, the way we analyze it on [[Danish phonology]], this is an affricate, in all positions. It's just that it has a dialectal realization as an aspirated stop.
::::Perhaps - but note that we don't differentiate between affricates and stop-fricative sequences in [[Help:IPA/Polish]] and a few other guides. ({{ping|Aeusoes1}}, what do you think?)
::::If we switched back to {{angbr IPA|tˢ}} then we'd use two rather similar diacritics: the affrication diacritic in {{angbr IPA|tˢ}} and the aspiration diacritic in {{angbr IPA|pʰ}} and {{angbr IPA|kʰ}}. {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}} conveys the same information (save for aspiration, which isn't covered in {{angbr IPA|tˢ}}) and it's probably a better choice.
::::Danish doesn't feature phonemic affricates, that's true - the fortis counterpart of {{IPA|/t/}} belongs to the aspirated series. Phonetically though, the contrast ''is'' between a plain stop and an affricate, and in that sense it's way more similar to the contrast between {{IPA|/d/}} and {{IPA|/ts/}} in Standard German. Danish {{IPA|/tsʰ/}} is just like SG (or Polish, Russian, Italian) {{IPA|/ts/}} in that affrication is mandatory (AFAICS). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 07:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
:::::If {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}} is phonetically representative even preconsonantally like you say, then I have no problem. As for phonemic notation, I'd drop {{angbr IPA|s}} before I would {{angbr IPA|ʰ}}, again because of its relation to /pʰ, kʰ/. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 13:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
== Vowels with stød aren't long ==
How come {{IPA|ˈtˢiːˀ}} is transcribed with a long vowel? I assume it's the IPA for ''ti'' (10), and I've never heard anyone pronounce that with a long vowel. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] <sup>([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|Talk]] – [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|Contribs]])</sup> 11:10, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} Haberland (p. 318 on Google Books) says that vowels with ''stød'' are about 15% shorter than the ordinary long vowels. That's not much, IMO. Basbøll (p. 272) says that vowels with ''stød'' are about as long as the long vowels. Why should we drop the length mark in this context? [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 13:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
::No offence to Haberland or Basbøll, but I find that to be complete BS, at least in modern Standard Danish. Compare [https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=ti ''ti''] with, for example, ''Tine''. They're definitely not the same length. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] <sup>([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] – [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])</sup> 15:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} The vowel in [https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=barn ''barn''] sounds pretty long to me. Either way, we need at least one source that says something else than Haberland and Basbøll. [[WP:OR]] is the reason. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 17:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
::::Well, some parts of this seem OR to me anyway. Like the examples. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] <sup>([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] – [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])</sup> 17:44, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} Either way, you're not the first native speaker to bring this up. If 85% of length of the long vowel is enough of a shortening that you ''perceive'' it as a short vowel (or at least "not a long vowel", so to say), then we could drop the length marks, following e.g. ''DDO''. Even if those vowels are phonemically long, the final consonants in ''dåb'', ''hat'' and ''tak'' are also phonemically aspirated and phonetically unaspirated (at least in normal speech). This wouldn't be the first case of the same allophone (a phonetically short vowel) belonging to two different phonemes (to simplify things a bit). Both types of transcription ({{angbr IPA|iːˀ}} and {{angbr IPA|iˀ}}) are found in the literature; Haberland writes vowels with ''stød'' like this: {{angbr IPA|iˑˀ}}, with a half-long sign (or its non-IPA counterpart, actually). That ''would'' be an overkill in my view. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 12:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
::Wow ... Why are there so many different ways of doing stuff! Can’t everyone just follow exact IPA? :( [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] <sup>([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] – [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])</sup> 13:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} I don't know. I support the removal of the length marks because of words in which a ''stød''-bearing vowel receives a mere secondary stress, e.g. [[City Hall Square, Copenhagen|''Rådh'''u'''spladsen'']] {{IPA|[ˈʁɒðˌhuˀsˌpʰlæsn̩]}} (or {{IPA|[ˈʁɒðˌhuːˀsˌpʰlæsn̩]}} in the current transcription). A vowel that's too long would sound really awkward in that position, if what you're saying is correct. Native speakers of English tend not to be very good with vowel length (though that depends on the variety of English) and so it's probably better to drop the length mark in that context. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 19:48, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} I'll be [[WP:BOLD]] and remove the length marks. The table underneath the list of symbols is clear about the fact that transcription without the length marks is widely used. You're at least the second native who's concerned about this (as far as I'm aware of - the first one was Maunus when I asked them to transcribe [[Hans Jørgen Uldall]] for me). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 14:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
::::I fully support that change. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] <sup>([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] – [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])</sup> 14:52, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
{{re|Kbb2}} Why did you remove length marks in unstressed syllables? My understanding is that phonologically long vowels with stød become longer again when unstressed. If not I'd like to see evidence of it. I bet if vowel length is contrastive in Danish it is in unstressed syllables too. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 00:03, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
:{{re|Nardog}} If that's true then maybe removing the length marks wasn't the best idea. Maybe we should restore them, given the fact that stød-bearing vowels are phonologically long and stød also tends to shorten consonants (at least {{IPA|/n/}}, AFAIK), not just vowels. This seems like too fine a distinction for this guide. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 06:54, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
::{{re|Kbb2}} The very example we're using to illustrate first and middle names being unstressed in [[Danish phonology#Stress]] contains a long unstressed vowel, as does in the source, Grønnum (1998: 104). Pronunciations of first names like [https://forvo.com/search/peter/da Peter] and [https://forvo.com/search/martin/da Martin] on Forvo clearly retain the vowel length.
::What's more, I was surprised to find many examples of [https://forvo.com/search/carl/da Carl]/[https://forvo.com/search/karl/da Karl] were clearly pronounced with stød. It seems the case that, while vowel length and stød are frequently lost in spontaneous speech when unstressed, this is by no means obligatory (compare the examples of "distinct" and "normal" speech [http://sproghistorie.dk/lydsystem/ here], and search for "stress reduction" in Basbøll etc.).
::I think we should restore not only vowel length but stød and stress in first/middle names etc. In IPA-xx transcriptions we normally try to capture as many lexically contrastive elements—which stress, stød, and vowel length clearly are—as possible, rather than the result of an utterance after syntax and intonation are applied. We do trasncribe some allophonic information that only arises in connected speech, like {{IPA|es|siˈmo'''m''' boˈliβaɾ|}} and {{IPA|es|ˈtʃe '''ɣ'''eˈβaɾa|}}, but these are easily reconstructable to /N, ɡ/, while ''Nikolaj'' transcribed as {{IPA|[nekolaj]}} cannot be reconstructed to {{IPA|[ˈnekoˌlajˀ]}}. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 17:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
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