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::::Danish doesn't feature phonemic affricates, that's true - the fortis counterpart of {{IPA|/t/}} belongs to the aspirated series. Phonetically though, the contrast ''is'' between a plain stop and an affricate, and in that sense it's way more similar to the contrast between {{IPA|/d/}} and {{IPA|/ts/}} in Standard German. Danish {{IPA|/tsʰ/}} is just like SG (or Polish, Russian, Italian) {{IPA|/ts/}} in that affrication is mandatory (AFAICS). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 07:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

:::::If {{angbr IPA|tsʰ}} is phonetically representative even preconsonantally like you say, then I have no problem. As for phonemic notation, I'd drop {{angbr IPA|s}} before I would {{angbr IPA|ʰ}}, again because of its relation to /pʰ, kʰ/. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 13:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

== Vowels with stød aren't long ==

How come {{IPA|ˈtˢiːˀ}} is transcribed with a long vowel? I assume it's the IPA for ''ti'' (10), and I've never heard anyone pronounce that with a long vowel. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] ^{([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|Talk]] &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|Contribs]])} 11:10, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} Haberland (p. 318 on Google Books) says that vowels with ''stød'' are about 15% shorter than the ordinary long vowels. That's not much, IMO. Basbøll (p. 272) says that vowels with ''stød'' are about as long as the long vowels. Why should we drop the length mark in this context? [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 13:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

::No offence to Haberland or Basbøll, but I find that to be complete BS, at least in modern Standard Danish. Compare [https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=ti ''ti''] with, for example, ''Tine''. They're definitely not the same length. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] ^{([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])} 15:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} The vowel in [https://ordnet.dk/ddo/ordbog?query=barn ''barn''] sounds pretty long to me. Either way, we need at least one source that says something else than Haberland and Basbøll. [[WP:OR]] is the reason. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 17:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

::::Well, some parts of this seem OR to me anyway. Like the examples. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] ^{([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])} 17:44, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} Either way, you're not the first native speaker to bring this up. If 85% of length of the long vowel is enough of a shortening that you ''perceive'' it as a short vowel (or at least "not a long vowel", so to say), then we could drop the length marks, following e.g. ''DDO''. Even if those vowels are phonemically long, the final consonants in ''dåb'', ''hat'' and ''tak'' are also phonemically aspirated and phonetically unaspirated (at least in normal speech). This wouldn't be the first case of the same allophone (a phonetically short vowel) belonging to two different phonemes (to simplify things a bit). Both types of transcription ({{angbr IPA|iːˀ}} and {{angbr IPA|iˀ}}) are found in the literature; Haberland writes vowels with ''stød'' like this: {{angbr IPA|iˑˀ}}, with a half-long sign (or its non-IPA counterpart, actually). That ''would'' be an overkill in my view. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 12:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

::Wow ... Why are there so many different ways of doing stuff! Can’t everyone just follow exact IPA? :( [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] ^{([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])} 13:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} I don't know. I support the removal of the length marks because of words in which a ''stød''-bearing vowel receives a mere secondary stress, e.g. [[City Hall Square, Copenhagen|''Rådh'''u'''spladsen'']] {{IPA|[ˈʁɒðˌhuˀsˌpʰlæsn̩]}} (or {{IPA|[ˈʁɒðˌhuːˀsˌpʰlæsn̩]}} in the current transcription). A vowel that's too long would sound really awkward in that position, if what you're saying is correct. Native speakers of English tend not to be very good with vowel length (though that depends on the variety of English) and so it's probably better to drop the length mark in that context. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 19:48, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

:::{{re|Biscuit-in-Chief}} I'll be [[WP:BOLD]] and remove the length marks. The table underneath the list of symbols is clear about the fact that transcription without the length marks is widely used. You're at least the second native who's concerned about this (as far as I'm aware of - the first one was Maunus when I asked them to transcribe [[Hans Jørgen Uldall]] for me). [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 14:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

::::I fully support that change. [[User:Biscuit-in-Chief|<b><span style="color:teal">—Biscuit-in-Chief</span> <span style="color:#444e76">:-)</span></b>]] ^{([[User talk:Biscuit-in-Chief|/tɔk/]] &ndash; [[Special:Contributions/Biscuit-in-Chief|/ˈkɒntɹɪbs/]])} 14:52, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

{{re|Kbb2}} Why did you remove length marks in unstressed syllables? My understanding is that phonologically long vowels with stød become longer again when unstressed. If not I'd like to see evidence of it. I bet if vowel length is contrastive in Danish it is in unstressed syllables too. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 00:03, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Nardog}} If that's true then maybe removing the length marks wasn't the best idea. Maybe we should restore them, given the fact that stød-bearing vowels are phonologically long and stød also tends to shorten consonants (at least {{IPA|/n/}}, AFAIK), not just vowels. This seems like too fine a distinction for this guide. [[User:Kbb2|Kbb2]] <small>(ex. Mr KEBAB)</small> ([[User talk:Kbb2#top|talk]]) 06:54, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

::{{re|Kbb2}} The very example we're using to illustrate first and middle names being unstressed in [[Danish phonology#Stress]] contains a long unstressed vowel, as does in the source, Grønnum (1998: 104). Pronunciations of first names like [https://forvo.com/search/peter/da Peter] and [https://forvo.com/search/martin/da Martin] on Forvo clearly retain the vowel length.

::What's more, I was surprised to find many examples of [https://forvo.com/search/carl/da Carl]/[https://forvo.com/search/karl/da Karl] were clearly pronounced with stød. It seems the case that, while vowel length and stød are frequently lost in spontaneous speech when unstressed, this is by no means obligatory (compare the examples of "distinct" and "normal" speech [http://sproghistorie.dk/lydsystem/ here], and search for "stress reduction" in Basbøll etc.).

::I think we should restore not only vowel length but stød and stress in first/middle names etc. In IPA-xx transcriptions we normally try to capture as many lexically contrastive elements—which stress, stød, and vowel length clearly are—as possible, rather than the result of an utterance after syntax and intonation are applied. We do trasncribe some allophonic information that only arises in connected speech, like {{IPA|es|siˈmo'''m''' boˈliβaɾ|}} and {{IPA|es|ˈtʃe '''ɣ'''eˈβaɾa|}}, but these are easily reconstructable to /N, ɡ/, while ''Nikolaj'' transcribed as {{IPA|[nekolaj]}} cannot be reconstructed to {{IPA|[ˈnekoˌlajˀ]}}. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 17:28, 22 March 2020 (UTC)