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[[Image:Gustave dore cendrillon4.JPG|thumb|[[Gustave Doré]]'s illustration for ''Cendrillon'']]
{{WikiProject Japan
{{otheruses}}
|class=Start}}
'''Cinderella''' is a popular [[fairy tale]] embodying a classic folk tale myth-element of unjust oppression/triumphant reward. Thousands of variants are known around the world.<ref>Jack Zipes, ''The Great Fairy Tale Tradition: From Straparola and Basile to the Brothers Grimm'', p 444, ISBN 0-393-97636-X</ref>
==Project Assessment==
Are people living in Japan not "ethnic Japanese"? It sounds to me like you're trying to find a term that covers the entire Japanese [[diaspora]], inclusive of terms like Japanese-American and the like. Technically speaking, "ethnic Japanese" is no different from "[[Japanese people]]"; the content of this article has merit, but it needs a new title. [[User:LordAmeth|LordAmeth]] 22:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
== Origins and history ==
I disagree that this article needs a new title. In general, "ethnic Foolander" is not used to refer to people living in Fooland. You just call them "Foolanders". See [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic], definition #3:
The ancient Greco-Egyptian version of Cinderella where her name is [[Rhodopis]] is possibly the oldest known version of the story.<ref>[http://www.aldokkan.com/art/cinderella.htm "The Egyptian Cinderella"]</ref> The tale was first recorded by the Greek historian [[Strabo]] in the first century BC <ref>Strabo, XVII, 1, 33</ref> (although earlier versions are thought to have come possibly from Australian Aboriginal [[Dreamtime]] myth via Chinese mariner explorers).
* being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
This matches usages like [[Ethnic German]], [[Ethnic Indian]], etc. For the specific case of "Ethnic Japanese", see [http://books.google.com/books?as_q=&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=ethnic+japanese&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_libcat=0&as_brr=0&as_vt=&as_auth=&as_pub=&as_drrb=c&as_miny=&as_maxy=&as_isbn= first 100 results on Google books]; there's an obvious preponderance of Japanese American and Japanese Brazilian topics. I only count about 1/4 of the hits being related to Japanese born and raised in Japan. This is a higher proportion than for other ethnicities (e.g. all but 4 "Ethnic Chinese" hits referred to [[Overseas Chinese]]), but it's still a minority of usages:
An early version of the story, ''[[Ye Xian]]'', appeared in ''[[Miscellaneous Morsels from Youyang]]'' by [[Tuan Ch'eng-Shih]] around A.D. [[860]].
{{Col-begin}}
{{Col-1-of-3}}
# Spickard 2004
# Tsuneyoshi 2001
# Klusmeyer 2000
# Kymlicka year not specified
# Durgonoglu 1998
# Possibly Brody 2001
# Rubinstein 1991 sorta - he's talking about Japanese colonisers in Taiwan
# de Mente 2003 (scraping the bottom of the barrel as to what qualifies as a "reliable source" about ethnology here)
# CultureGrams 2000
{{Col-2-of-3}}
# Batten 2003
# Reiber 2003 (a Frommer's travel guide)
# Craig 2000
# Gonzales 2004 (part of the "Complete Idiot's Guide" series)
# Immortal Wishes (no author or date specified)
# Weiner 2004
# Culbert 1996
# Kearney 1998
# Befu 2006
{{Col-3-of-3}}
# Minichello 1998
# Pangi 2003
# McLaughlin 1999
# Kent 2006: "they constitute the largest concentration of ethnic Japanese anywhere in the world outside of Japan"
# Let's Review Global History
# Kikuchi 2004
# Clarke 2000, maybe
# Yamamoto 2001
# Hsu 1999
{{Col-end}}
In quite a few cases, "ethnic Japanese" is used to contrast Japanese Brazilians with native Japanese. For example, note Douglass 2003: "By she end of 1997, the total population of ethnic Japanese migrants throughout Japan ... was 273000." This would make absolutely no sense if you interpret "Ethnic Japanese" and "Japanese" to mean the same thing. Cheers, [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 02:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The most popular version of Cinderella was written by the French author [[Charles Perrault]] in [[1697]], based on an earlier literary fairy tale written by [[Giambattista Basile]] as ''La Gatta Cenerentola'' in [[1634]]. Another well-known version where the girl is called ''Aschenputtel'' was recorded by the German [[Brothers Grimm]] in the 19th century.
:I am going to have to agree with LordAmeth on this - there is a problem here. People will take the naming of these articles as an indication that "Japanese people" refers to citizens of Japan and "ethnic Japanese" refers to what is currently the article [[Japanese people]].
:This article would have a much clearer meaning if it was placed at [[Nikkeijin]] or [[Nikkei people]]. Your Kent reference shows this well - in it "ethnic Japanese" is the term used to refer to [[Japanese people]], and it is because of this that the term requires further specification with "outside of Japan". ''All'' Japanese people are ethnic Japanese, and ''some'' ethnic Japanese people live outside of Japan. I believe that those people are all called "Nikkei". [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:Also, note that the [[Ethnic Germans]] page should redirect to [[Germans]]. As the first line of the [[Germans]] article states, that article is about the ethnicity. It is under that rubrick that it was already proposed that [[Ethnic Germans]] be merged into [[Germans]]. There is no article at [[Ethnic Indian]], because it redirects to a page with a better title. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
::::<s>Finally, you redirected the [[Japanese immigrants]] dab page here, which is fine in and of itself according to the contents of the article, but you then did not link any of the pages about Japanese immigrants in different countries on this page. At the very least, they should be readded to a "See also" section at the end of the article. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)</s> Thank you for changing it. I have readded links to the Nisei and Sansei, originally not on the dab page because they were the children of immigrants and not immigrants themselves - they do apply to the contents of this article. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
: Those links were already there in the article itself (aside from Issei, Nisei, Sansei); putting them into See Also just makes it clearer. And yes, you'll note that [[Ethnic Indian]] is a redirect; it redirects to an article about Indians outside of India. "Ethnic Foolander" has a different common meaning than "Foo ethnicity", regardless of the fact that both words derive from the same root. [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 07:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
::I think we've found common ground. I would agree with placing a note at the top of this article and redirecting [[Ethnic Japanese]] to it when we've decided on a new page title. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
''Cinderella'' is classified as [[Aarne-Thompson]] type 510A, the persecuted heroine; others of this type include ''[[The Sharp Grey Sheep]]''; ''[[The Golden Slipper]]''; ''[[The Story of Tam and Cam]]''; ''[[Rushen Coatie]]''; ''[[The Wonderful Birch]]''; ''[[Fair, Brown and Trembling]]'' and ''[[Katie Woodencloak]]''.<ref>Heidi Anne Heiner, "[http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/cinderella/other.html Tales Similar to Cinderella]"</ref>
Almost all those books listed have not disambiguated between Japanese nationals and Nikkei when using the term "ethnic Japanese", so using those books does not offer any conclusion to common usage. The fact that a quarter referred to mainland nationals is telling of how off and ambiguous the usage is. Why was google books used anyway? Google search prefers Nikkei.
==Plot and variations==
Results in google for ''Ethnic Japanese'' is a straight '''65,900''' (this is inflated due to incorrect parsing and people reffering to Japanese nationals also). Results for Nikkei, disambiguated (to avoid conflict with the nikkei market and companies/names, which would net 21,300,000 articles for nikkei alone) and the respective ethnic Japanese counterpart under it:
[[Image:Cinderella-book.jpg|thumb|"Cinderella and the Glass Slipper" (book cover)]]
*''nikkei "japanese american"'' - '''70,200'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" "japanese american"'' 10,800
*''nikkei immigrants'' - '''62,000'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" immigrants'' - 22,400
*''nikkei "japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian"'' - '''73,300'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" "japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian"'' - 11,600
*''nikkei immigrants OR "japanese american"'' - '''118,000'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" immigrants OR "japanese american"'' - 20,800
*''nikkei immigrants OR "japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian"'' - '''120,000'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" immigrants OR "japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian"'' - 21,000
*''nikkei "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person"'' - '''133,000'''
:''"ethnic Japanese" "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person"'' - 22,600
[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 02:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The familiar plot revolves around a girl of a rich family deprived of her rightful station in the family and given the cruel nickname "Cinderella" by her wicked [[stepmother]] and two step-sisters. The nickname is given in reference to Cinderella's position of domestic servitude, and her menial work of cleaning the cinders and ashes from fireplaces in the family home. In some versions, her father plays an active role in the humiliation of his daughter; in others, he is secondary to his new wife; in some versions, especially the popular [[Disney]] film, the father has died.
Google books (not fully disambiguated, since it still may refer to Japanese peoples as a whole, which puts searches in "ethnic Japanese" favor, yet "ethnic Japanese" still loses):
*''nikkei "immigrants"'' - '''165'''
:''"ethnic japanese" "immigrants"'' - 117
*''nikkei "Japanese American" OR "japanese brazilian"'' - '''212'''
:''"ethnic japanese" "Japanese American" OR "japanese brazilian"'' - 79
[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 02:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
Although many variants of Cinderella feature the wicked stepmother, the defining trait of type [[Antti Aarne|510A]] is a female persecutor: in ''[[Fair, Brown and Trembling]]'' and ''[[Finette Cendron]]'', the stepmother does not appear at all, and it is the older sisters who confine her to the kitchen. In other fairy tales featuring the ball, she was driven from home by the persecutions of her father, usually because he wished to marry her. Of this type (510B) are ''[[Cap O' Rushes]]'', ''[[Catskin]]'', All-Kinds-of-Fur, and ''[[Allerleirauh]]'', and she slaves in the kitchen because she found a job there.<ref>Heidi Anne Heiner, "[http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/donkeyskin/other.html Tales Similar to Donkeyskin]"</ref> In ''[[Katie Woodencloak]]'', the stepmother drives her from home, and she likewise finds such a job.
{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''no consensus'''. If you have any questions, please contact me at [[User talk:IanManka|my talk page]]. [[User:IanManka|Ian Manka]] 15:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
In ''[[La Cenerentola]]'', [[Gioachino Rossini]] inverted the sex roles: Cenerentola is oppressed by her [[Stepfamily#stepfathers|stepfather]]. (This makes the opera Aarne-Thompson type 510B.) He also made the economic basis for such hostility unusually clear, in that Don Magnifico wishes to make his own daughters' [[dowry|dowries]] larger, to attract a grander match, which is impossible if he must provide a third dowry. Folklorists often interpret the hostility between the stepmother and stepdaughter as just such a competition for resources, but seldom does the tale make it clear.<ref>[[Marina Warner]], ''From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairy Tales And Their Tellers'', p 213-4 ISBN 0-374-15901-7</ref>
== Requested move ==
[[Ethnic Japanese]] → [[Nikkei people]] — Current title is confusing because it has the same meaning as [[Japanese people]] - that is, people with Japanese ethnicity. The contents indicate that this article concerns only people with Japanese ethnicity living outside of Japan; the specific term for this is ''Nikkei''. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:'''To closing admin''': I still think the arguments for using "Nikkei" outweigh those against, but please close this as ''no consensus'' rather than ''do not move'' so we can move to a title (probably [[Japanese diaspora]]) that will bring all but one of the oppose votes on-board. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 02:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Cinderella accepts magical aid to attend a royal [[ball (formal dance)|ball]], where she attracts the attention of the [[Prince Charming|handsome prince]]. The number of balls varies, sometimes one, sometimes three balls; in the most familiar version of the story, told by Charles Perrault, Cinderella attends two balls.
===Survey===
:''Add <tt><big><nowiki># '''Support'''</nowiki></big></tt> or <tt><big><nowiki># '''Oppose'''</nowiki></big></tt> on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>.''
In Perrault's version, Cinderella receives the aid of a Fairy Godmother who turns a pumpkin into a coach, mice into a team of horses, lizards into footmen, and a rat into a driver, before transforming Cinderella's clothing into a splendid gown and jewels, with fantastic slippers of some unusual material. The magic all comes to an end at the final stroke of [[midnight]].
====Survey - Support votes====
# '''Support''' as nominator. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. Or [[Nikkeijin]] (to avoid having to put a parenthetical disambiguator after "Nikkei"). However oppose redirecting [[Ethnic Japanese]] to [[Japanese people]]; it should redirect to [[Nikkeijin]] or whatever we call it, and we can put an "otheruses" hatnote on that article for the minority of people who go there expecting the term means plain old "Japanese people" (and as the Google Books search above demonstrates, this is a minority usage). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 07:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
#:I am fine with Nikkeijin, but some editors and policies prefer English whenever possible. Since ''Nikkei'' is a recognized adjective in English, I chose Nikkei people. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
# '''Support''' I support any Nikkei derivative -- ''Ethnic Japanese'' is an incorrect term to describe this article. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 09:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
# '''Support''' — The proposed title will perfectly match the current contents of this article. We already have an article about "Ethnic Japanese" in [[Japanese people]], and this move will insure that the 2 topics will be kept separate.--[[User:Endroit|Endroit]] 10:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
# '''Support''' "Nikkei people" is less confusing than "Ethnic Japanese". [[User:HongQiGong|Hong Qi Gong]] <small>([[User talk:HongQiGong|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/HongQiGong|Contribs]])</small> 22:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
#: '''Comment''' BTW, "Nikkei people" gets [http://www.google.com/search?hl=zh-TW&q=%22nikkei+people%22&lr= 666 Google hits] (and only 7 hits in print), roughly 2% as many as "Nikkeijin". So following [[WP:UE]] in this case would involve using a neologism/protologism as the article title. (Not to mention the [[eschatological]] consequences). Also along the lines of recent moves like [[Korean people]] to [[Koreans]], if we call it "Nikkei people", I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people then came in and pushed for the article to be moved to "Nikkeis" (sic). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 23:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The [[fairy godmother]] is Perrault's own addition to the tale.<ref>Jane Yolen, p 23, ''Touch Magic'' ISBN 0-87483-591-7</ref> The person who aided Cinderella in the [[Brothers Grimm|Grimms]]'s version is Aschenputtel's dead mother. Aschenputtel requests her aid by praying at her grave, on which a tree is growing. Helpful doves roosting in the tree shake down the clothing she needs for the ball. This motif is found in other variants of the tale as well, such as ''The Cinder Maid'', collected by [[Joseph Jacobs]], and the Finnish ''[[The Wonderful Birch]]''. [[Giambattista Basile]]'s ''[[Cenerentola]]'' combined them; the Cinderella figure, Zezolla, asks her father to commend her to the Dove of Fairies and ask her to send her something, and she receives a tree that will provide her clothing. Other variants have her helped by talking animals, as in ''[[Katie Woodencloak]]'', ''[[Rushen Coatie]]'', ''[[Bawang Putih Bawang Merah]]'', ''[[The Story of Tam and Cam]]'', or ''[[The Sharp Grey Sheep]]'' -- these animals often having some connection with her dead mother; in ''[[The Golden Slipper]]'', a fish aids her after she puts it in water. In "The Anklet", it's a magical alabaster pot the girl purchased with her own money that brings her the gowns and the anklets she wears to the ball. [[Gioacchino Rossini]], having agreed to do an opera based on ''Cinderella'' if he could omit all magical elements, wrote ''[[La Cenerentola]]'', in which she was added by Alidoro, a philosopher and formerly the Prince's tutor.
====Survey - Oppose votes====
#'''Oppose'''. [[WP:UE]] seems to prohibit the use of Nikkei as the term is not in common use outside of the Japanese community. If there is a problem with Ethnic Japanese as a title, then perhaps [[Ethnic Japanese outside of Japan]], or some other term, would be acceptable, but Nikkei is not. The only exposure most non-Japanese people have to the work Nikkei is [[Nikkei 225]]. --[[User:Bobblehead|Bobblehead]] 08:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per [[WP:UE]] and above. The current configuration is fine (''cf.'' [[Germans]] / [[ethnic Germans]]) or a change could be made to [[Japanese people]] / '''[[Japanese diaspora]]''' (already a redirect and ''cf.'' [[Russians]] / [[Russian diaspora]]). — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 06:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
#:'''Comment'''. As noted already above, [[Ethnic Germans]] may soon be merged into Germans. The problems with the title are inherent in its first line: "Ethnic Germans – often simply called Germans..." I don't think [[Japanese diaspora]] ("Japanese diaspora" -Wikipedia, 800 Ghits) is a bad title, but I fail to see why we should substitute a term that ''no one'' uses for a term that some people do use (Nikkeijin -Wikipedia, 28k Ghits). [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
#:: I highly doubt that [[Ethnic Germans]] would "soon" be merged. The merge tag has been in place since 6 weeks ago and no one's done anything about it. Also there's a hatnote on [[Germans]] requesting that [[Ethnic Germans]] be ''split'' from that article ... and again, a Google search on the term "ethnic german" will show you how people actually use it, which is not the same thing as "German ethnicity". [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 07:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' as a Midwestern US college drop out, i'm probably in the realm of the average wikipedian reader. Ethnic japanese- I would get. Even [[Japanese diaspora]] - I would get. Nikkeijin- No way. And this is the English encyclopedia, so we should keep foreign language titles to the absolute min. [[User:205.157.110.11|205.157.110.11]] 23:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' It's not confusing at all. Take a look at the definition, [[wikt:Ethnic]]. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 22:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
#:'''Comment'''. That is a concise definition of why it ''is'' confusing. While there are second and third definitions that generally describe this article, the first directly describes the article [[Japanese people]]. This really needs to be moved somewhere, even if it is [[Japanese diaspora]], but the question is where to move it. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 02:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#::You're over complicating things. It's silly to think every definition of a word should apply to every use. The context is quite clear, and ethic most often describes a foreign or subculture within a larger culture. Ethnic food, ethnic group, etc. Surely everyone's time can be better spent on things other than quibbling over semantics. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 04:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::Per the naming conventions, we are supposed to use the best title that is not ambiguous. This is ambiguous because [[Japanese people]] living in [[Japan]] are part of the [[ethnic group]] called [[ethnic Japanese]]. That's all. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 04:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#::::That's still semantics. It doesn't confuse me. Policy also stipulates the [[WP:NC(CN)|common name]] is used. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/ethnic+Japanese [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 05:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::::The page you linked cites this article in order to define "ethnic Japanese". Maybe you can find another source, but that's not the one you want. Let me put the problem another way: if the article [[Japanese people]] was at this title, it wouldn't be ''wrong''. And yet that article isn't here. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 11:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::::From the introduction to the naming conventions page you linked: "If we ignore potential ambiguity, the ideal of simplicity can be at odds with the ideal of precision." [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 11:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#::::::Heh, I didn't notice it was referenced from Wikipedia, can't get away from this place. Still, a Websters editor must have approved that, I can't image they're randomly grabbing things from the Internet. I don't find "ethnic Japanese" ambiguous, I'd assumed it to refer to exactly what it does and what the Webster's definition names its usual use. Here, diaspora (I assume you're not arguing for ''nikkei'' anymore) is a more obscure synonym. By your logic "Japanese" could refer to anything, maybe people will think this article is about sushi or anime. Should the title have been expanded to "ethnic Japanese people"? Give the rest of us some credit. If you're really concerned perhaps an otheruses tag could be added but a move isn't necessary or beneficial. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
#:::::::[[Japanese]] is a disambiguation page for the same reason, yes. It could refer to [[Japanese language]] or [[Japanese people]], and so we don't use the title for either. But that was not the change I proposed, because "ethnic" is a problem here. It may be the way you usually use the term, but it is not the way everyone uses the term. And yes, I think the title [[Chinese in Japan]] is ambiguous and should be changed. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 03:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
#::Let me put this another way. You think it's not confusing, but a lot of people - let's be fair and say half, according to the votes above - think it is confusing. The threshhold for a primary use claim based on links is usually 80-90%, so I think it's clear that there is a problem. You think we should argue about other things. In that case, why not just redirect this to [[Japanese diaspora]] with an otheruses tag at the top of the page for [[Japanese people]] (along the lines of what was suggested by this article's main contributor) and be done with it. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 03:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The midnight curfew is also absent in many versions; Cinderella leaves the ball to get home before her stepmother and stepsisters, or she is simply tired. In the Grimms' version, Aschenputtel slips away when she is tired, hiding on her father's estate in a tree, and then the pigeon coop, to elude her pursuers; her father tries to catch her by chopping them down, but she escapes.<ref>Maria Tatar, The Annotated Brothers Grimm, p 116 W. W. Norton & company, London, New York, 2004 ISBN 0-393-05848-4</ref>
===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments:''
==== Use English? ====
<s>[[Ethnic Japanese outside of Japan]] is actually less accurate, because it would also refer to Japanese citizens.</s> Nikkei is often used in English contexts, and is included in some dictionaries, including Webster's. In academia we have, for example, ''Encyclopedia of Japanese Descendants in the Americas: An Illustrated History of Nikkei'', Akemi Kikumura-Yano, ed. (Walnut Creek, CA: AltaMira Press, 2002); or the [http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/english/sympos.htm International Nikkei Research Project]. I don't think a less-accurate term should be substituted. Also note [[Gaijin]] (not "Foreigners in Japan"); [[Zainichi Koreans]] (not "Koreans in Japan"); [[Dekasegi]] (not "Ethnic Japanese who emigrated from Japan and then returned to Japan"); [[Issei]], [[Nisei]], and [[Sansei]]. Even if you disallow Nikkei as English, [[WP:UE]] allows for transliterations in cases in which there is not an established English term for the topic. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 09:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:<s>Perhaps you should re-read the article and correct your comment? This article and the article on [[Japanese people#Japanese living abroad|Japanese people]] make it clear that this article covers both Japanese citizens living abroad and people of Japanese descent that are not Japanese citizens. </s> Actually, looks like I need to reread the article.--[[User:Bobblehead|Bobblehead]] 09:26, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
::If this article is only supposed to cover non-Japanese citizens of Japanese descent living outside of Japan, then it needs a rewrite as it makes several references to Japanese citizens living abroad. A specific example would be the second paragraph of the introduction. I'm also curious how one plans to exclude Japanese citizens living abroad from any definition of Japanese ethnicity. Many countries do not require you to renounce your citizenship to your country of origin in order to become a citizen of that country and Japan does not revoke your citizenship if you become a citizen of another country (unless it's an "enemy state" of course). As it is currently written, it also appears that the article covers Japanese citizens that emigrate to other countries, so a person with [[resident alien]] status would be covered by this article. Additionally, the examples you gave are terms that are limited to Japan, or are commonly used outside of Japan, while this article seems to cover a topic that is specifically not related to Japan and the term you wish to use is not commonly used outside of the ethnic Japanese communities.--[[User:Bobblehead|Bobblehead]] 09:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Actually, my understanding is that Japanese people cannot hold dual citizenship after they come of age, but that the Japanese government is lax in enforcing that rule. I am not sure of the intended scope of this article (per previous contributors) as pertains to Japanese citizens, so I have retracted that comment. At any rate, the idea is not to exclude them from the idea of Japanese ethnicity; the broad concept of "Japanese ethnicity" is already covered at [[Japanese people]], and clarification of that is one of the main reasons to rename this article. As such, debating [[WP:UE]] might be more useful than talking about citizenship. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 10:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
::::Unfortunately discussing the scope of the article may be the only way to resolve the issue. If I'm understanding the purpose of this article, it is to describe the history of ethnic Japanese living outside of Japan and not the history of the term Nikkeijin. It also seems to me that this history includes that of Japanese emigrants (permanent resident aliens or naturalized citizens of another country, not tourists). Based on that understanding and my understanding that Nikkeijin generally excludes Japanese citizens living abroad it would seem that naming this article Nikkeijin would be an inaccurate term. Just a note, I don't known Japanese, so I'm basing the understanding of what Nikkeijin means on the explanation in these articles, so if I'm wrong, correct me. As far as [[WP:UE]], there is an english equivalent for Nikkeijin. Just have to figure out what the scope of the article and adjust accordingly. --[[User:Bobblehead|Bobblehead]] 11:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::In Japanese, the idea that Nikkei excludes Japanese citizens is not explicit, and technically the meaning includes anyone of Japanese heritage. In practice, Japanese speakers use the word to contrast "foreign" Japanese people with "normal" Japanese people. That is, all Japanese people are Nikkei, but most of the time they are referred to as Japanese (i.e. ''nihonjin''); if Japanese speakers go out of their way to talk about overseas Japanese people, they use the term ''nikkeijin''. Because it is this usage that was introduced into English, and since those people who retain their citizenship generally intend to return to Japan, the "Nikkei" term is not generally applied to Japanese citizens overseas. I believe the key point is whether there is a self-identification as an expatriate, or rather as an immigrant. However, "Japanese emigrants" is also inaccurate because it includes the descendants of the emigrants themselves. Since there is this self-referential component and there are clear examples of its use in English, I find it hard to say it shouldn't be used on Wikipedia.
:::::As for this article, the part of the introduction you referred to was copied from a section on "Japanese people abroad" in the [[Japanese people]] article. The ''separately'' was meant to convey that that part did not apply to the term ''nikkeijin'', but it was copied over here as well. I think that was a mistake and the second paragraph of the introduction should be removed; in fact, I'll do it now. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 11:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I should also note that the Japanese Wikipedia does not mention the inclusive usage of the term (anyone of Japanese heritage). That is only mentioned in my Japanese dictionary, though it is also clear from the etymology of the word. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 11:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
:Would you use [[Raw fish]] instead of [[Sashimi]], just because it's not English? Just because a word isn't well known doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. It's a poor excuse for replacing ''correct'' article names with superfluous editor-fabricated ones. Japanese have a precise and well defined meaning for Japanese emigrants. Japanese diaspora can be redirected to Nikkeijin. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 04:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, the gathering need not be a ball; several variants on Cinderella, such as ''Katie Woodencloak'' and ''The Golden Slipper'' have her attend church.
==== Nikkeijin vs Nikkei people vs Nikkeis ====
Incidentally, "Nikkeis" is very common in Portuguese ([http://www.google.com.hk/search?hl=zh-TW&q=nikkeis&meta= Nikkeis 45k ghits]), but almost as unknown in English as "Nikkei people" ([http://www.google.com.hk/search?num=30&hl=zh-TW&q=nikkeis+-sobre+-para&meta= Nikkeis -sobre -para 934 ghits]). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 23:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
In the three-ball version, Cinderella keeps a close watch on the time the first two nights and is able to leave without difficulty. However, on the [[Rule of three (writing)|third]] (or only) night, she loses track of the time and must flee the castle before her disguise vanishes. In her haste, she loses a glass slipper which the prince finds -- or else the prince has carefully had her exit tarred, so as to catch her, and the slipper is caught in it. He declares that he will marry only the girl whose petite foot fits into the slipper.
====What about "Japanese diaspora"?====
Please consider the unambiguous '''[[Japanese diaspora]]''' instead of a possibly non-English and largely unknown term. (''cf.'' [[Russian diaspora]]) — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 06:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
:I don't think [[Japanese diaspora]] ("Japanese diaspora" -Wikipedia, 800 Ghits) is a bad title, but I fail to see why we should substitute a term that ''no one'' uses for a term that some people do use (Nikkeijin -Wikipedia, 28k Ghits). [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The glass slipper is unique to [[Charles Perrault]]'s version; in other versions of the tale it may be made of other materials (in the version recorded by the [[Brothers Grimm]], [[German language|German]]: ''Aschenbroedel'' and ''Aschenputtel'', for instance, it is gold) and in still other tellings, it is not a slipper but an anklet, a ring, or a bracelet that gives the prince the key to Cinderella's identity. In Rossini's opera "''[[La Cenerentola]]''" ("Cinderella"), the slipper is replaced by twin bracelets to prove her identity. In the Finnish variant ''[[The Wonderful Birch]]'' the prince uses tar to gain something every ball, and so has a ring, a circlet, and a pair of slippers. Interpreters unaware of the value attached to glass in 17th century France and perhaps troubled by sartorial impracticalities, have suggested that Perrault's "glass slipper" (''pantoufle de verre'') had been a "fur slipper" (''pantoufle de vair'') in some unidentified earlier version of the tale, and that Perrault or one of his sources confused the words; however, most scholars believe the glass slipper was a deliberate piece of poetic invention on Perrault's part.<ref>Maria Tatar, p 28, ''The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales'', ISBN 0-393-05163-3</ref>
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> If you have any questions, please contact me at [[User talk:IanManka|my talk page]]. [[User:IanManka|Ian Manka]] 15:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The translation of the story into cultures with different standards of beauty has left the significance of Cinderella's shoe size unclear, and resulted in the implausibility of Cinderella's feet being of a unique size for no particular reason. Humorous retellings of the story sometimes use the twist of having the shoes turn out to also fit somebody completely unsuitable, such as an amorous old crone. In [[Terry Pratchett]]'s ''[[Witches Abroad]]'', the witches accuse another witch of manipulating the events because it was a common shoe size, and she could only ensure that the right woman put it on if she already knew where she was and went straight to her. In "When the Clock Strikes" (from ''[[Red As Blood]]''), [[Tanith Lee]] had the sorcerous shoe alter shape whenever a woman tried to put it on, so it would not fit.
== Discussion after move to [[Japanese diaspora]] ==
[[Image:Gustave dore cendrillon4.JPG|thumb|Cinderella tries on the slipper]]
::I thought the point of wikipedia was to be factual? Yet you've chosen to be less "confusing" and ''wrong'' rather than precise and correct. Why was there even an argument to fabricate a term among editors, which borders on OR? [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 21:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Cinderella's stepmother and [[False hero|stepsisters]] (in some versions just the stepsisters — and, in some other versions, a stepfather and stepsisters) conspire to win the prince's hand for one of them. Perrault's tale says that the sisters did all they could to put on the slipper. In the German telling, the first stepsister fits into the slipper by cutting off a toe, but the doves in the hazel tree alert the prince to the blood dripping from the slipper, and he returns the false bride to her mother. The second stepsister fits into the slipper by cutting off her heel, but the same doves give her away.
:::Considering that there was never any suggestion to remove the redirect from this page to the new title, I'm surprised that there was much opposition... but there was, and the discussion didn't end in consensus, so it seems like the best we can do now is move this to [[Japanese diaspora]]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't believe any amount of consensus overrides the first pillar of Wikipedia, accuracy and no OR. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
In many variants of the tale, the prince is told that Cinderella can not possibly be the one, as she is too dirty and ragged. Often, this is said by the stepmother or stepsisters. In the Grimms' version, both the stepmother and the father urge it.<ref>Maria Tatar, The Annotated Brothers Grimm, p 126-8 W. W. Norton & company, London, New York, 2004 ISBN 0-393-05848-4</ref> The prince nevertheless insists on her trying. Cinderella arrives and proves her identity by fitting into the slipper or other item (in some cases she has kept the other, as in the Disney retelling).
''*Note: This was the point at which the article was moved.''
:::::I have moved the page to ''Japanese diaspora'' and taken care of the double redirects. If you regard it as a halfway solution, I will vote with you again. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to take any measures you think are warranted. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 05:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
In the German version of the story, the evil stepsisters are punished for their deception by having their eyes pecked out by birds. In other versions, they are forgiven, and made ladies-in-waiting with marriages to lesser lords.
Another thing I'd also like to point out: even though the [[:es:Portada|Spanish Wikipedia]] has a policy similar to [[WP:UE]], namely [[:es:Wikipedia:Convenciones_de_t%C3%ADtulos#T.C3.ADtulos_en_espa.C3.B1ol|Wikipedia:Convenciones de títulos#Títulos en español]], the article there is at [[:es:Nikkei]]. And my understanding of [[WP:UE]] is that it's there to justify [[Vienna]] instead of [[Wien]], [[Moscow]] instead of [[Moskva]], and the like (because those are traditional and widespread English translations); it's not supposed to be a license for Wikipedians to make up their own translations of terms which are accepted by experts. [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 12:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
::I thought we had agreed that the term was more well-established in those languages than it is in English. However, I agree with you completely. Ignorance of the accurate term is no excuse not to put the page in the right place, and redirects are cheap. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 12:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
In [[The Book of One Thousand and One Nights|The Thousand Nights and A Night]], in a tale called "The Anklet" <ref>{{cite book | last = Mardrus | first = Joseph-Charles | authorlink = Joseph-Charles Mardrus | coauthors = Powys Mathers | title = The book of the Thousand Nights and One Night | volume = 4 | publisher = [[Routledge]] |date= June 1987 | ___location = London and New York | pages = 191-194 | id = ISBN 0-415-04543-6 }}</ref>, the stepsisters make a comeback by using twelve magical hairpins to turn the bride into a dove on her wedding night. In ''[[The Wonderful Birch]]'', the stepmother, a witch, manages to substitute her daughter for the true bride after she has given birth. Such tales continue the fairy tale into what is in effect a second episode.
:Poor show. There was hardly a consensus, this is clearly still controversial, the page should not have been moved. Diaspora can just as easily imply that they fled or were dispelled from Japan. How is that any less "ambiguous" than ethnic? Plus, to quote Dekimasu, diaspora is a term "''no one'' uses". I'm calling for Dekimasu to revert his changes. The Japanese people article lists this as the main article for [[Japanese people#Japanese living abroad|Japanese living abroad]], diaspora's no good, however, ethnic is still common usage (as illustrated at the top of this page) and, to keep things interesting, I will throw Japanese expatriate into the mix. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 04:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I attempted to replace the title that was already causing problems with a title that only you (Doctor Sunshine) and I objected to. With less ten people in the discussion, five supported a move to Nikkei, and two explictly noted that they would change their votes for a title that was better established in English. If there is a better way to deal with the results of the vote, I am once again open to other options. However, the presumption of a suggestion to move is that the page should be moved, and there was a clear majority that noted the problems with the ''ethnic'' title. I see lots of voices discussing where the page should be, but no strong push to see it where it was. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 12:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
::::[[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a democracy|Wikipedia is not a democracy]], there was no consensus. Plus, this article is not just about the people here, it's here for Wikipedia as a whole. Again, please revert you changes and place a proper move request. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::You are right. It is not a democracy, so I should not refer to the numbers explicitly. Let's look at the arguments, then. We had people who said:
:::::*1. Ethnic Japanese is confusing, while Nikkei is accurate and precise.
:::::*2. Ethnic Japanese is confusing, but Nikkei should be avoided due to [[WP:UE]].
:::::*3. Ethnic Japanese is not confusing. (Note: there were no arguments that that title was accurate or precise.)
:::::In such a situation, I don't see how the supporters of stance #3 can justify their stance that the title isn't confusing. We know it is confusing, because there are people in groups 1 and 2. Thus, on the weight of arguments, the page required a name change. I asked the closing admin to close the move as "no consensus" rather than "do not move" in order to reflect this, and that's what happened. We know that the article is here for Wikipedia as a whole; the editors who took part in the vote represent a cross-section of Wikipedia users, even if that cross-section is imperfect. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::Ethnicity does not refer to solely emigrants, and is incorrect usage. If this article is called Ethnic Japanese, then it'd be referring to Japanese still residing in Japan as much as those outside. Diaspora does not mean expelled -- that may be your interpretation due to the term used among Jews. The article should use none your suggested terms, and neither diaspora, though diaspora would be more correct than ethnic (expatriate includes Japanese temporarily residing in Japan, which would run into the same troubles of using ethnic). Anthropologically speaking, the most correct and best term would be nikkei, with emigrant as a close second. The masses of people using ethnicity to refer to emigrants are wrong on its usage and should have their respective articles moved. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 05:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I said ethnic is ''common'' use. You may consider a common usage noun phrase wrong but that doesn't change the fact that it's the common term. And it's only ''my'' definition of [[diaspora]] (click that), is it?[http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Diaspora] (click that too, and while your at it click [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic here] and pay special attention to the '''esp.''') Regarding expatriate, this article doesn't cover Japanese people "temporarily" living outside of Japan? This article only covers people who will never move back or are not allowed to? Is that what I'm hearing? [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 07:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
::::That is part of the focus that we have lost by not using the accurate title. The temporary/permanent distinction is used to separate the groups as far as self-identification is concerned, so I don't see why a different rubric should be used to distinguish them. The key point as regards the previous title is that it clearly exhibited the danger of a risk of confusion, which is precisely the kind of problem that the guidelines at [[WP:DAB]] are meant to deal with. Anyway, I think we should agree to stop referring to the dictionary. Before you argued against definition #1 of ''ethnic'', and now you are arguing against the common usage of diaspora by citing the dictionary. Please rather try to help us find a name that you are comfortable with, since it is apparent that a good number of editors take issue with this title as well. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 12:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'm sorry we can't make everyone happy but common use is common use. Alternate terms and a clear summary in the lead is the best one can hope for. And I used the dictionary to support my point, surely you're not telling me that the dictionary definitions are irrelevant? You're twisting my word by saying that I argued against a dictionary definition, my point was that the common use is ethnic Japanese which, as I've mentioned, is illustrated at the top of this page by cab. I've ''also'' already provided an alternate in Japanese expatriate. And since three times is a charm, let me repeat: please revert your changes. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I'm sorry that we can't make everyone happy, too. I made a move that I wasn't particularly happy with because it did reflect the weight of the opinions given above. You might also note that this was an unblocked move when I originally brought the [[Nikkei people]] title up for a vote; I am not avoiding discussion. For six days after I proposed a move to [[Japanese diaspora]] in the comments on your vote, you lodged no objection. Then I made the move.
:::::::As far as dictionaries are concerned, I was pointing out that you argued against the common usage of diaspora based on a technical definition, and argued for the common usage of ethnic but ignored the technical definition. I noted a methodological problem with cab's sources last month, as you can see below the list of books. "Japanese expatriates" are not the main focus of this article - in fact, they are not discussed at all. And the Nikkei terminology excludes them. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::The dictionary defines both the Jewish terminology and the general terminology, which is mass migration. At the current moment, you're arguing against diaspora, yet offering another incorrect term expatriate (temporary immigrants are not part of the article). How does that help us any? What makes you special that we favor your suggestion over diaspora -- kinda pointless isn't it? Incorrect terminology is not to be used just because it is common (there's a difference between a neologism and incorrect word usage). Here are some examples of incorrectly used terms that are more common than their actual terminology: [[Rollerblade]]-[[Inline skates]], [[Frisbee]]-[[Flying disc]], [[Raw fish]]-[[Sashimi]] (most often referred to as [[Sushi]]), [[Correlate]]-[[Causation]], [[Internet]]-[[World Wide Web]], [[Web address]]-[[URL]]-[[URI]], [[Race]]-[[Species]], [[Impeachment]]-[[Conviction]], etc. Incorrect terms should not be substituted for correct words, even if common. If this article is moved back to Ethnic Japanese, I'll religiously edit it to make sure that the article is clear that Ethnic Japanese is an incorrect term. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 20:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::[Removed my comment, due to perceived inflammatory nature. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 06:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)]
:::::::Thank you for bringing in more information (the Google searches). <s>I'm not sure that the final comment will draw opponents into the discussion, though.</s> Instead, what course of action do you suggest? [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I fear that my participation in the discussion is alienating Doctor Sunshine, so I will now withdraw unless/until someone makes a clear proposal about further changes to the page name. However, I do not intend to revert the page move, which has already taken care of ''one'' of the problems with the previous title (ambiguity). [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:I'm not as experienced dealing with conflicts, so I'd take suggestions on how to convince people (at least those with the ability to resolve the matter) in order to reach a ''valid'' resolution. I usually try to stay on the sidelines in established articles -- this one has concerned me enough as both an anthropologist and a Japanese-American. If not nikkei [people], at least an equally appropriate term needs to be used. Currently the article names for Germans and Japanese emigrants are coming under fire (both using incorrect terminology), and I don't understand why the pro-"ethnic" terminology conflict has latched onto these two groups. I can only hope that people will realize that ''nikkei'' is a more common than they believe, especially among the Japanese-American historians and the JA community (a major portion of which is being defined) and that ethnicity has a specific meaning which is being misused in these cases. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 06:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
In an episode of [[Jim Henson]]'s ''[[The Storyteller]]'', writer [[Anthony Minghella]] merged the old folk tale ''[[Donkeyskin]]'' (also written by Perrault) with ''Cinderella'' to tell the tale of ''Sapsorrow'', a girl both cursed and blessed by destiny.
==Discussion after move back to Ethnic Japanese==
falsedef, manners! You've been rude and hostile since you got here. You're going to "religiously edit" the page? Be my guest, vandalize and disrupt it all you like, let's see how far that gets you. You want to know how to resolve conflicts? Lesson one: [[meta:Don't be a dick|Don't be a dick]]. Until you can learn that there's no reason for me to waste my time with you.
===Cinderlad===
Dekimasu, you haven't alienated me. You've tried my patience but you haven't alienated me. Again you selectively address the points I've raised, and those you do address you twist in a bizarre and erroneous manner. The move is clearly controversial. Move blocks are irrelevant. I don't have any numbers on me but consensus historically doesn't require 100%; if, as you claim, Japanese diaspora is a shoe in then it should pass no problem. For this reason, because diaspora is an obscure term has as many definitions as ethnic and because you refuse to do so, I will revert your move. Anyone is welcome to place a move request to any of the suggested titles or something better. I'll state my thoughts one last time as clearly as possible:
The despised third child who sits among the ashes is not a role limited to daughters. In ''[[The Princess on the Glass Hill]]'' and others, a third son is also despised and lives in the kitchen. In some variants of ''[[The Seven Foals]]'', he is even called "Cinder-lad."
===Revisionist retellings===
1. '''Ethnic Japanese'''. a) Japanese living abroad (common use.) b) Japanese everywhere. c) Perhaps Japanese cuisine or culture.<br />
2. '''Japanese diaspora'''. a) Japanese living abroad. b) Japanese expelled from their homeland. c) The land of a or b. (Note: there is no common use as "no one uses" the term.)<br />
3. '''Japanese expatriate''' a) Japanese living abroad (Why it doesn't work: Apparently that they may return to Japan invalidates them?)<br />
4. '''Japanese living abroad''' (Why it won't work: ???)<br />
5. '''Nikkei people''' a) Japanese living abroad (Why it won't work: [[WP:NC(UE)]] as there are plenty of English noun phrase equivalents as above.)<br />
6. '''Non-resident Japanese and Person of Japan Origin''' a) Japanese living abroad (Why it won't work: Too long?)
There is also [[Gregory Maguire]]'s novel ''[[Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister]]'', which gives the classic story from the view of one of the ugly stepsisters. In this version, the Cinderella character is unusually beautiful, but also a shy enigma. Her stepsister, though plain, is charming and intelligent. The novel has themes much more adult than the traditional story.
Basically, aside form any subtle shadings, these all refer to the subject of this article. I consider ethnic Japanese accurate and precise because simply that's how I, and many, many others, learned it. Yes, it can be used to refer to Japanese people everywhere but logically it should be expected that an encyclopedia would us a more direct term for that (like [[Japanese people]]). This may help: '''[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English]]'''. Basically the relevant points are that one should not move an article because one learned another word or phrase for the subject and that instead of arguing over semantics it's better to pour that energy into adding and improving the articles content. Dekimasu's comments here alone are longer than this start class article. Imagine if that effort had been channeled into improving the article. Look at [[Talk:Humour/Spelling]] and then look how awkward the [[Humour]] article is. It's the same deal. Let's move on. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 23:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:As shown, ethnic Japanese is NOT common usage compared to nikkei. Your move is unwarranted. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 02:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
In [[1982]] [[Roald Dahl]] rewrote the story in a more modern and gruesome way in his book [[Revolting Rhymes]].
:I have provided sources for the terminology on the article space, and common usage evidence on the talk page. Please provide your evidence for "ethnic Japanese" usage. If you fail to provide adequate/scholarly sources and continue to press on after acknowledging this, I will call for mediation. If that fails to enact changes, I will call for arbitration. Please note, your sources should DIRECTLY state that "ethnic Japanese" = Japanese emigrant and descendent (or similar usage), or will be seen as the definition of ''both'' Japanese nationals and Japanese descendants. Do not remove my cites and information until you have provided proper evidence, otherwise I will give vandal warnings. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
==Discussion==
All right, now I'm going to reinject myself with a proposal myself because I feel the discussion is falling apart. Condescension ("poor show", "this article is for Wikipedia", "manners!", "bizarre and erroneous") can get you referred to [[meta:Don't be a dick|Don't be a dick]] as well. I don't really feel that the reversion was warranted, but the problem at hand is still the same. Concerning my contributions to this article, I first appeared on this talk page because people were incorrectly changing links from [[Japanese people]] (an article which I do work on quite a bit) to [[Ethnic Japanese]]. This showed me that there was a problem with the [[Ethnic Japanese]] title. And much of the original introduction to the article was harvested from [[Japanese people]]. Rather than talk about [[Japanese living abroad]] as a title or the other new replies to my comments, I'll skip ahead.
{{Unreferencedsect|date=January 2007}}
[[Image:Cinderella - Project Gutenberg etext 19993.jpg|thumb|The Fairy Godmother appears to Cinderella, illustrated in a 1927 story anthology]]
The Cinderella tale is sometimes portrayed as a "rags-to-riches" tale. However, in fact, it is a "riches-to-rags-to-riches" tale; Cinderella, being the daughter of a rich merchant, is at first driven from her rightful patrimony, and the course of the fairy tale restores her to it.<ref>Jane Yolen, p 33, ''Touch Magic'' ISBN 0-87483-591-7</ref>
The tale has been interpreted as a psychological "splitting": by having both a dead mother and the all good benefactor, any feelings of resentment can be put onto the evil ''step''mother. <ref>Maria Tatar, p 29, ''The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales'', ISBN 0-393-05163-3</ref>
How do we feel about [[Overseas Japanese]]? For reference, I refer you to the construction of [[Overseas Chinese]], with a redirect tag from [[Ethnic Chinese]] and a note on [[Chinese people]] at the top of the page. Then we can '''effectively delineate and broaden the scope of this article'''. After the introduction, the article can be divided into two main sections: one labelled "Nikkeijin/Nikkei/Nikkei people" (which would contain almost all of the content of the current article), and one labelled "Japanese nationals living abroad" (which can handle both expatriates, and people who aren't ethnic Japanese but hold Japanese nationality and live abroad). A third section could refer to historical issues, such as those Japanese people who were not allowed to return to the country when it was closed, or those who were persecuted after Christianity became controversial. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea that "Cinderella" embodies [[mythology|myth]] elements was explored in ''[[The Uses of Enchantment]]'' (1989) by [[Bruno Bettelheim]], who made many connections to the principles of [[Sigmund Freud|Freudian psychology]].
Also note: "overseas Japanese" has 36,600 Ghits. And cab is an editor of the [[Overseas Chinese]] article, so it would be good to have his opinion. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:[[Japanese Overseas]] gains more hits; however, at the moment I will pursue the article to be changed to [[Nikkeijin]] or [[Nikkei people]]. The more I'm forced to get into the issue, the more I see the argument for Nikkeijin. The word can be sourced as defined in many documents referring ''specifically'' '''Japanese emigrants and their descendants''' within English and international documents. If the addition of temporary Japanese expatriates is included into the article, then I will agree to the use of Japanese Overseas. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 07:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
::I don't see any reason not to add them, because it can both defuse the situation and add value to the article. I don't think anyone would have a problem using the self-identifying term within the article, particularly as it is fully explained by the text, so the portion on "Nikkeijin" could remain fairly independent. And I don't feel strongly about [[Japanese overseas]] as opposed to [[Overseas Japanese]]; I was just making a parallel. I think a somewhat larger portion of the [[Japanese overseas]] hits are referring to "Japanese overseas x" (companies, influence, etc.). If one was redirected to the other, it wouldn't be that big of a problem. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Such an addition would be more of a tack on than anything. Even the [[Overseas Chinese]] article doesn't seem to talk about students or temporary residents outside China. I believe the term Nikkeijin is strong enough to stand on its own rather than hold an extra stub article (temporary residents) and become a different article. I don't want this issue to set a xenophobic precedent for discrimination against other (foreign) words despite their historical use in English. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 07:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
As Freudian analyses have come to be viewed as less scientific,{{Fact|date=February 2007}} mythographers have turned to trying to disentangle different cultural elements from different versions of the Cinderella tale.{{Fact|date=February 2007}} Each social group, in re-telling "Cinderella", has emphasized or suppressed individual elements and has given them interpretations that are especially relevant within each society. Mythographers return to Cinderella for hints of the social ''[[ethos]]'' embodied in it, and the familiar story proves to be a useful case example for young students beginning to understand how myth works. Thus serious uses come from what appears on the surface to be a trivial wish-fulfilment narrative.
:::I also believe that if we reach arbitration, Nikkei will win, as I have the cites (most importantly!) and few dozen scholars (plus some university programs) ([http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/about/credits.php]) who agree upon its usage. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 07:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
An example of the "uses of Cinderella" is presented by Shirley Climo, ''The Egyptian Cinderella'' (1989), aimed at young children: "Rhodopis, a Greek slave girl living in Egypt, is teased by the servants about her coloring. Eventually, one of her rosy-gold slippers is carried to the pharaoh's court. He searches for, and finds, the girl. Based partly on fact (a slave named Rhodopis did marry Pharaoh Amasis) and partly on folk legends, this story is remarkable for its details of life in ancient Egypt and for the Egyptian-style illustrations". As a document, this reveals some contemporary American approaches to [[historicism]], [[cultural multiplicity]], [[racism]], and educating for a spirit of tolerance. The anachronism of a supposed skin-color sensitivity in Egypt itself is revealing.
:::I've removed the cites from the article space, here they are:
:::[http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg21.PDF][http://www.fiu.edu/~asian/pdf/NataliPresentation.pdf][http://www.globalbuddhism.org/6/shoji05.pdf][http://www.riim.metropolis.net/Virtual%20Library/2000/wp0003.pdf][http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~patrick/geo324/minorities%20Chapter%208%20%20Nikkeijin%20Notes.doc][http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nikkei][http://www.utpjournals.com/diaspora/diaspora51.html][http://www.todayonline.com/articles/162475.asp][http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/APCITY/UNPAN023660.pdf][http://www.janmstore.com/150687.html][http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=6996][http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-1290575_ITM][http://www.migrationint.com.au/news/macedonia/nov_1998-13.asp][http://www.ebookstore.tandf.co.uk/html/moreinfo.asp?bookid=536893881&etailerid=19][http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/040403/roth.shtml][http://www.philippinestoday.net/index.php?module=article&view=135][http://www.japansociety.org.uk/reviews/05brokered.html][http://www.law.washington.edu/pacrim/abstract/11.3.htm][http://www.jpri.org/publications/workingpapers/wp88.html][http://migrationinformation.com/Feature/display.cfm?id=8][http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0822331489&id=WbGiZunTXUYC&pg=RA1-PA159&lpg=RA1-PA159&ots=nAwHTnS3wM&dq=%22The+Nikkeijin+Dekasegi%22&sig=n5IjvbWJwF7p11uEM-R_DUyx_Kw#PRA1-PA5,M1][http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg21.PDF][http://www.fiu.edu/~asian/pdf/NataliPresentation.pdf][http://www.globalbuddhism.org/6/shoji05.pdf][http://www.riim.metropolis.net/Virtual%20Library/2000/wp0003.pdf][http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~patrick/geo324/minorities%20Chapter%208%20%20Nikkeijin%20Notes.doc] [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Earlier, less self-consciously instructive Cinderellas have more revealing mythic content.
::::I think that intentionally keeping them separate in order to use the Nikkei term could be seen as an inappropriate [[WP:Content forking|content fork]]. I favor the Nikkei term (both from an anthropological standpoint and as a result of my experiences in Japan), but I don't see xenophobia here, and we should solve this matter without arbitration if at all possible. The original move request was meant to alleviate confusion, and personally I'd be happy to see this article at any title that is accurate and precise. I'll once again compliment you for moving the sources over here while we consider the issue. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 08:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::On the contrary, I believe there isn't really a fork, since there isn't information about temporary residents in the article. It's really a retrograde content merge if we use Overseas Japanese or Japanese Overseas, which again I believe would be hard pressed to find a formal definition for (cited). It seems at the moment most other ethnic group articles covering ethnic emigration exclude temporary residents from their article space, and this would become the exception. Again, it's not so much that I'm opposed to moving it to Overseas Japanese, but rather opposed to the ''denial'' of Nikkei as an article name (i.e. even if this article became Overseas Japanese, I'd be content that there was acknowledgment that Nikkei could've been a proper title name). [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The term Cinderella has evolved from its storybook beginnings to become the name for a variety of female personalities. Some girls are described as a Cinderella if they are meek and immediately submissive to stern orders. Others are called Cinderella if they tend to quietly complain. For example, a girl from a wealthy household who has been ordered to wash the dishes as a fulfilment of her once a month chores would be deemed a Cinderella; a fallen princess who has finally met with tough reality.{{Fact|date=April 2007}}
:::::I've read the content fork article, and it seems to be meant for articles which duplicate their subject. In this case it wouldn't be a fork, since the information is separate (temporary residents, ''Japanese nationals abroad'', and permanent, ''Nikkei people''). If there were two articles on the same subject, then it'd be a fork. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Some comments:
# I'm not really sure that ''most other ethnic group articles covering ethnic emigration exclude temporary residents from their article space''. At least on the xyz-American articles, there's not really any division of articles based on time of immigration. Excluding them might not make all that much sense, either, especially where immigration has been continuous, since new/temporary arrivals often blend into or at minimum have significant interaction with the community built up by the old immigrants and their descendants. Trying to make that division tends to involve a POV call on the distinction between an "immigrant" and an "expatriate".
# The one exception I'm aware of is the one I created, [[Koryo-saram]] and [[Sakhalin Koreans]], which cover two separate groups of Koreans in the former Soviet Union with almost entirely divergent immigration histories and little interaction (and at the moment, ''neither'' article covers the third major group of Koreans in the Soviet Union, North Korean citizens).
# To Dekimasu: The name "Overseas Chinese" was adopted as the result of a translation of a Chinese term, as far as I remember. It's become established academic terminology, but it still causes problems since there's always someone trying to argue that Chinese in Russia, Mongolia, India, Korea, Burma, France, et cetera ad nauseum, aren't really "Overseas". This might be less of a problem in the Japanese case, since Japan is an island, but I'm sure there's someone out there on teh Internets who has the time and brick-headedness to put up a case that the [[Tsushima Strait]] isn't really a sea (and hence Japanese people in Korea, China, and across the whole of Eurasia and Africa aren't in fact "overseas"). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 10:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Not really sure what else I can contribute here, except my opinion that [[WP:UE]] is being drastically over-applied to things it was never intended to apply to, not just here but all over Wikipedia (e.g. [[:Category:Gu of Seoul]], or AfDs on referenced articles about foreign slang on the grounds that they're not used in English, etc). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 10:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for your clarification upon the Overseas Chinese article. I believe "xyz American" articles do refer solely to those who reside permanently in America or are raised/born there. though necessarily an "exclusion" from the article space, it does not fit within it. Temporary visitors to America aren't really referred to as American, as they are not seeking residency or citizenship (a Japanese citizen studying at an American university would still be considered Japanese rather than Japanese American). I believe it makes more sense to keep these groups separate (visitors versus perm residents), as transient residents are still regarded to be part of their nation/ethnicity of origin. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Cinderella, along with the more general "princess", are shorthand for a particular approach to weddings and Western wedding attire, especially the white dress.{{Fact|date=April 2007}} A bride with the Cinderella mindset believes that the dress and the occasion exist in order that she may be transformed for the day into a beautiful princess. Detractors of such princess brides argue that the wedding is not solely about the bride; nevertheless, many wedding gown retailers appeal, directly or indirectly, to the Cinderella ideal.
I've provided citations for '''Nikkei''' and '''Japanese diaspora''', but Nikkei seems to be overwhelmingly more common (by google book and web search) name in academics, research groups, and also accepted among the English speaking Japanese-American community and their respective organizations plus the international community [http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/about/credits.php][http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/english/partners.htm][http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/english/scholars.htm]. Since [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:V]] are core policies, I'm requesting an administrator to move the article to '''Nikkei people'''. Until cites or evidence are provided contrary to the name "Nikkei people" being well defined for this article and more common than "ethnic Japanese", I believe this move is the correct one.
The Cinderella story is much criticised for what many perceive to be a negative, traditionalistic, approach to women.{{Fact|date=April 2007}} From the point of view of these critics Cinderella is oppressed, and does nothing about it; a magical event takes her to a powerful prince who is so taken with her appearance that he chooses her as his consort (it is assumed that she will accede), decorative, but existing only as an adjunct to him. They believe that she has no personality or character of her own; she is simply pretty and good-natured and mindlessly obedient, and advances because of this. Little girls in Western society are told the story: they can infer that if they are obedient and take care of their appearance they will live Happily Ever After.
I'm really sorry it's come to this point -- when the article was moved to Japanese diaspora, I felt it in bad taste, but was willing to let the issue go; however, the moving of the article back to "ethnic Japanese" has prompted me to get further into the issue than I wanted. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, others claim that the story should be taken on its own merit, to them Cinderella is not meant to be read into and critiqued as some complex academic social manifesto, but to be enjoyed as a fairy tale and its simple powerful message that good can come to decent people.
==Summary of Points Regarding article name==
Going even further, many do not see Cinderella's personality or actions in a negative light. Simply that she has come under criticism because more confrontational headstrong heroines have become perceived as the new ideal of what a women is expected to be in Disney and American culture in general. To them, Cinderella has many admirable qualities, taking a more calm and discreet approach in fulfilling her wishes, and chooses to be kind even to those who mistreat her.{{Fact|date=April 2007}}
I've created a summary of points, feel free to add any of your points, and cites (add one to the article space also). [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
===Arguments for Ethnic Japanese===
*More common English name
**Rebuttal: needs evidence, currently unverified, violates [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:V]], ''Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; all articles and policies must follow Neutral point of view, Verifiability, and No original research. This is not a vote.''
*
*
==Adaptations==
====Arguments against use of "ethnic Japanese"====
The story of "Cinderella" has formed the basis of many works:
*"Ethnic Japanese" is ambiguous, as Japanese [[ethnicity]] would define Japanese people (including lineage and culture). Ethnicity is technically being used more broadly in this case (those with lineage but not shared culture or ___location), without verified distinction.
*Ethnic Japanese is not as common as originally thought, as shown by a more thorough results in Google searching of websites and books.
*By using a term that is unverified, this article would break two of three of Wikipedia's core policies (verifiability and no OR).
===Opera===
===Arguments for Nikkei people===
* ''Cendrillon'' by Jean-Louis Larouette
*Nikkei (people) is used academically, supported by both the Japanese American National Museum, and affiliates throughout East Asian and Asian American academic units [http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/affiliates/][http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/english/scholars.htm][http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/english/partners.htm] -- nikkei's definition can be ''verified'' and research about Nikkei (Japanese emigrants and their descendants) are abundantly found in English.
* ''[[La Cenerentola]]'' by [[Gioacchino Rossini]]
*Nikkei is also used among both English speaking Japanese (Japanese-Americans) and the international Japanese community (Brazil, Japan, as Nikkeijin) as their own respective name.
* ''[[Cendrillon]]'' by [[Jules Massenet]]
*Other easily derived names can be redirected to the ''proper'' article name rather than qualify the article after the fact.
* ''[[La Cenicienta]]'' by [[Jorge Peña Hen]]
===Ballet===
====Arguments against Nikkei people====
*''[[Aschenbroedel (ballet)|Aschenbroedel]]'' by [[Johann Strauss II]]
*Less inclusive
*''[[Cinderella (Prokofiev)|Cinderella]]'' by [[Sergei Prokofiev]]
**Rebuttal: dedicated research has been done upon nikkei, whereas more general terms are currently dubious
*''[[Cinderella (comic ballet)|Cinderella]]'' by [[Sergei Prokofiev]], with [[choreography]] by [[Frederick Ashton]] (a ballet version similar to the "Cinderella" pantomime)
*Harder to search for among "common" populace
*''[[Les Cinderella (ballet)|Cinderella]]'' by [[RyanCasey]], with [[choreography]] by [[Casey Frey]] sponsored by happy birthday productions''
**Rebuttal: other names can be redirected to the ''proper'' article name rather than qualify an incorrect name
*[[WP:UE]]
**Rebuttal: as shown, Nikkei is actually used among English speakers and is in romanized English alphabet letters
*[[WP:Content_forking]] since it is purposefully excluding temporary residents
**Rebuttal: Nikkei are a researched people and a subject on their own, temporary residents (Japanese citizens abroad) should be a separate article and would add little to the subject (currently there is no information about them in the article). Content forking are two separate versions of the ''same'' article subject with different view points (e.g. Japanese bad, Japanese good). Since Nikkei is already clearly defined, it is not a fork and would maintain its neutrality.
===Pantomime===
===Arguments for Overseas Japanese or Japanese Expatriates and other names===
The subject of Cinderella is very common for British and Australian [[pantomime]]s, but is not the most popular to produce because of the cost involved.
*More correct than ethnic Japanese
In the traditional pantomime the opening scene is always set in the forest with the hunt in sway and it is here that Prince Charming and Dandini meet Cinderella. Except that she thinks Dandini is the Prince and the Prince is Dandini (all very confusing and not at all politically correct, but then traditional pantomime isn't).
*More inclusive, would allow the article to talk about a wider group range than just Nikkei
Cinderella's father (Baron Hardup) is under the thumb of his two step-daughters the [[Ugly sisters]] who are jealous of Cinderella and cruel to her. There are also added characters such as [[Buttons (pantomime)|Buttons]] (Baron Hardup's servant, and Cinderella's friend) — and Dandini, the Prince's right-hand man, the character and even his name coming from [[Gioacchino Rossini|Rossini's]] opera ("''[[La Cenerentola]]''"). Throughout the pantomime, the Baron is continually harassed by The Broker's Men (quite often they are named after politicians) for outstanding rent. The Fairy Godmother must magically create a coach (from a pumpkin), footmen (from mice) and a coach driver (from a frog), and a beautiful dress (from rags) for Cinderella in order for her to go to the ball. However, Cinderella must return by midnight as at that time the fairy godmother's magic spell ceases.
**Rebuttal: Research upon general Japanese expatriates are currently dubious and may not provide much to the article
As with all traditional pantomimes, all turns out well in the end as good triumphs over evil.
***Rebuttal to Rebuttal: Dont' quite agree that ''Research upon general Japanese expatriates are currently dubious and may not provide much to the article''; there is quite a bit of research on [[Japanese people in Hong Kong]], for example, enough for me to write a decent-length article without even trying. And they're only a population of about 20000. See the bibliography there. [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 04:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
====Arguments against other names====
*Nikkei is a more common name than "ethnic Japanese" and "Overseas Japanese", as resulted in mentioned Google searches. I'm under the assumption that research on overseas Japanese and Japanese expatriates are less of that of Nikkei
*By fabricating a new article name and using a term that is unverified, this article would break two of three of Wikipedia's core policies (verifiability and no OR).
===Musical Comedy===
== Requested move 2 ==
[[Image:Mara wilson cinderella.jpg|thumb|[[Mara Wilson]] in Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella (2005)]]
[[Ethnic Japanese]] → [[Nikkei people]] — Current name violates WP:OR and WP:V (its unsourced and contrived), new name is established academically and used within the English language, despite beliefs of opposition. Evidence of common use is provided on talk page, and cites are provided in talk and article space. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 03:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
*''[[Cinderella (TV)|Cinderella]]'' by [[Rodgers and Hammerstein]], was produced for television three times:
**''Cinderella'' (1957) featuring [[Julie Andrews]], [[Jon Cypher]], [[Kaye Ballard]], [[Alice Ghostley]] and [[Edie Adams]] (broadcast in color, but only black-and-white [[kinescope]]s exist today).
**''Cinderella'' (1965) featuring [[Lesley Ann Warren]], [[Stuart Damon]], [[Ginger Rogers]], [[Walter Pidgeon]], and [[Celeste Holm]].
**''Cinderella'' (1997) featuring [[Brandy (entertainer)|Brandy]], [[Paolo Montalban]], [[Whitney Houston]], [[Whoopi Goldberg]], [[Victor Garber]], [[Bernadette Peters]], and [[Jason Alexander]].
*The Rodgers and Hammerstein musical has been adapted for the stage several times, including a [[2005]] version that, like the 1997 TV version, featured Paolo Montalban and included an ethnically diverse cast.
*''Mister Cinders'', which was filmed in [[1934]]
*''[[Into the Woods]]'' by [[Stephen Sondheim]] (Cinderella is one of many well-known fairy tale characters who play a part in the plot).
===Films===
I think the problem is there is one article named [[Japanese people]] and one article named [[Ethnic Japanese]] and both of those article names mean the same thing. Is it ok to put all of the stuff from [[Japanese people]] at the top of this article? If it's not ok then this can't stay the same... whatever the vote numbers are. 210.189.164.103 03:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Over the decades since the invention of motion pictures, literally hundreds of films have been made that are either direct adaptations from or have plots loosely based on the story of Cinderella. Almost every year at least one but often several such films are produced and released, resulting in Cinderella becoming a work of literature with one of the largest numbers of film adaptations ascribed to it. It is perhaps rivaled only by the sheer number of films that have been adapted from or based on [[Bram Stoker|Bram Stoker's]] novel ''[[Dracula]]''.
*''Cinderella'', the 1899 first ever film version produced in [[France]] by [[Georges Méliès]].
===Survey===
*''Cinderella'', 1911 [[silent film]], starring [[Florence La Badie]].
:''Add <tt><big><nowiki># '''Support'''</nowiki></big></tt> or <tt><big><nowiki># '''Oppose'''</nowiki></big></tt> on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. Please remember that this survey is [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|not a vote]], and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.''
*''Cinderella'', an animated Laugh-O-Gram produced by [[Walt Disney]], first released on [[December 6]], [[1922]]. This film was about 7 minutes long.
*''[[Poor Cinderella]]'', a 1934 [[Fleischer Studio]] animated short, starring [[Betty Boop]].
*''Cinderella Meets Fella'', a 1938 [[Merrie Melodies]] animated short.
*''[[Cinderella (1947 film)|Cinderella]]'' (Зо́лушка), [[Russia]]n [[musical film]] of [[1947]], 84 min, by [[Lenfilm]] studios starring [[Erast Garin]] and [[Faina Ranevskaya]].
*''[[Cinderella (1950 film)|Cinderella]]'', an animated feature released on [[February 15]], [[1950]], now considered one of [[The Walt Disney Company|Disney]]'s classics. A [[direct-to-video]] sequel, ''[[Cinderella II: Dreams Come True]]'', was released in [[2002]]. A second direct-to-video sequel ''[[Cinderella III: A Twist in Time]]'' was released in [[2007]].
*''[[The Glass Slipper]]'', 1955, with [[Leslie Caron]] and [[Michael Wilding]].
*''Hey Cinderella'', A 60 minute film produced by the [[Jim Henson Company]] in 1970. This was a comedy version featuring Jim Henson's trademark muppets (including a small role by [[Kermit the Frog]])
*[[Cinderfella]], 1960, notorious because the main character is a man, played by [[Jerry Lewis]].
*[[Tři oříšky pro Popelku]] (Three Nuts for Cinderella), Czech movie 1973
*''[[Hey, Cinderella!]],'' an early Muppet treatment co-starring an up-and-coming Kermit the Frog.
*''[[The Slipper and the Rose]]'', a 1976 British [[musical film]] starring [[Gemma Craven]] and [[Richard Chamberlain]].
*''[[Cindy]]'', made for television, 1978
* In 1989, an anime short film, starring [[Hello Kitty]], titled ''Hello Kitty's Cinderella'' was released in Japan. It was released in the U.S. as part of the ''Hello Kitty and Friends'' anime series.
*''[[Cinderella (1994 film)|Cinderella]]'', produced by [[Jetlag Productions]] and distributed by [[GoodTimes Entertainment]] premiered on video in [[1994]].
* ''[[Cinderella (TV)|Cinderella]]'', 1997 with [[Brandy (entertainer)|Brandy]] and [[Whitney Houston]]
*''[[Ever After]]'', 1998 film starring [[Drew Barrymore]].
*''Cinderella'', a 2000 British production set in mid-20th century and starring [[Kathleen Turner]].
*''[[A Cinderella Story]]'', released July 16, 2004, is a modernization of the classic fairy tale featuring [[Hilary Duff]] and [[Chad Michael Murray]].
*''Cinderelmo'', a Cinderella story featuring ''[[Sesame Street]]''<nowiki></nowiki>'s [[Elmo]] and [[Keri Russell]].
*''''[["Cinderfatty]]'''' film by happy birthday productions featured on ''[[youtube.com]]'':starring ''[[Dylan Thomas]]'' as the stepmother and ''[[Ryan Casey]]'' as Cinderfatty
====Survey - in support of the move====
#'''Support'''. I'll restate that I will support any precise and correct title for this page over the current title. The problem in a nutshell is that ''until [[Shinzo Abe]], [[Junichiro Koizumi]], and every other Japanese person in Japan '''isn't''' "ethnic Japanese", this is an unacceptably ambiguous title''. The current title fails [[WP:NC(P)]] and I believe the proposed title passes muster for [[WP:UE]]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 14:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' — "Ethnic Japanese" implies that "Japanese people living in Japan" should be included, which is NOT the case for this article. Therefore "Ethnic Japanese" is a VERY BAD TITLE. I would support any move to [[Nikkei people]], [[Nikkei Japanese people]], [[Overseas Japanese]] (as in [[Overseas Chinese]]), [[Japanese expatriates]], and [[Japanese emigrants]]. However, I am opposed to [[Japanese diaspora]].--[[User:Endroit|Endroit]] 17:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. What Endroit said - ditto. [[User:LordAmeth|LordAmeth]] 12:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
===Television===
====Survey - in opposition to the move====
*''[[Faerie Tale Theatre]]'', a television anthology that aired between 1982 to 1987, featured a traditional reenactment of [[Cinderella (Faerie Tale Theatre episode)|Cinderella]] with [[Jennifer Beals]] as the title character.
# '''oppose''' per the arguments made in the last move request that was only a few weeks ago. [[User:205.157.110.11|205.157.110.11]] 03:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
*''[[Floricienta]]'' or ''[[Floribella]]'' in [[Portugal]], [[Brazil]] and [[Chile]], a [[telenovela]] created by Argentinean producer [[Cris Morena]] and Israeli production company [[Yair Dori]] in 2004 (with versions in [[Portugal]] and [[Brazil]] in 2005, and in [[Chile]] in 2006), which is a modern adaptation of Cinderella and [[The Sound of Music]].
#:Please provide your citations and proper definition if you wish to avoid breaking [[WP:V]], as the previous arguments are not valid until verifiability is provided.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 21:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
*''[[Scroogerello]]'', an episode of ''[[DuckTales]]''.
#::Cite..hmm, how about [[WP:UE]]? ''Nikkei'' is not English in the same sense that Ethnic Japanese and [[Japanese diaspora]] are in terms of conveying what the article is about. To apply the concept of [[WP:AMNESIA]] to naming conventions, I would say that a good article title is one that if a person forgot everything that they knew about the subject, they could still have ''an idea'' about what the article is about. Any "mildly" educated English speaker could look at the titles Ethnic Japanese and Japanese diaspora and get ''an idea'' that the article is about people of Japanese heritage that may not being located in Japan. '''No one''', without any prior knowledge of the subject matter (in particular with a Japanese background) would have a clue what ''Nikkei people'' is about. I'm sorry, but Wikipedia aims for the common masses and the English version has to utilizing the most efficient english language title and ''Nikkei People'' is too technical and specialize of a title to work. [[User:205.157.110.11|205.157.110.11]] 04:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' My opinion hasn't changed in the past couple weeks either. And original research and verifiability don't apply as the term can be verified by most English reading humans (and of course cab's Google books search at the top of this talk page.) I do notice a NPOV problem, unnecessary citations and excessive alternate terms (Wikipedia is not a thesaurus) in this articles lead however. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 19:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
#:From [[WP:NOT#DICT]] - "''Dictionary definitions. Because Wikipedia is not a dictionary, please do not create an entry merely to define a term. '''An article should usually begin with a good definition'''; if you come across an article that is nothing more than a definition, see if there is information you can add that would be appropriate for an encyclopedia. An exception to this rule is for articles about the cultural meanings of individual numbers.''"
#:Please provide your citations and proper definition if you wish to avoid breaking [[WP:V]]. EVERYTHING must be verifiable if stated as fact, personal verifiability are not options. Until you provide citations stating the definition of ethnic Japanese as Japanese emigrants and descendants, the article name is incorrect.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 21:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - [[Nikkei people]] not ''correctly'' used in English. [[Japanese diaspora]] is plausible, but this is not. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 00:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
===DiscussionIce skating===
[[Image:Cinderella-on-Ice.JPG|thumb|right|300px|"Cinderella on Ice" — on stage in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia]]
:''Add any additional comments:''
[[Image:Cinderella-on-Ice-notice.JPG|right|100px|]]
Again, what about "Nikkeijin" rather than Nikkei people? The former gets tens of thousands of Ghits, the latter a few hundred. "Nikkeis" is also a possibility (it gets tens of thousands of Ghits as well, but 98% in Spanish or Portuguese; that pluralisation doesn't seem to be common in English). [[User:CaliforniaAliBaba|cab]] 04:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
:Mainly because there's a lot of usage with Nikkei = Nikkeijin in English, as seen in the over hundred thousand sites associating Nikkei with Nikkeijin (top of page). Many associations (clubs and organizations) use the term Nikkei in this manner. It also follows the definition of my primary cite [http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/index.htm] and [http://www.discovernikkei.org/en/what/]. The "people" part is more of a disambiguation as with [[Japanese people]] (who are more often referred to as Japanese). Using Nikkei won't happen, since the Nikkei economic market is obviously more known than the people.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 07:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
For those in opposition, please note that voting won't help your cases much. You need to provide evidence to your arguments. I only enabled the move discussion because it is policy guideline to do so for a move. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 21:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me for readding my comment above to a ___location where more people may read it. I still believe it's the most useful compromise here based on the fact that both [[Ethnic Japanese]] and [[Nikkei people]] appear to lack support. See [http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=mRg&q=%22overseas+Japanese%22+-Wikipedia&btnG=Search "overseas Japanese" -Wikipedia], 33600 Ghits.<blockquote>
How do we feel about Overseas Japanese? For reference, I refer you to the construction of Overseas Chinese, with a redirect tag from Ethnic Chinese and a note on Chinese people at the top of the page. Then we can effectively delineate and broaden the scope of this article. After the introduction, the article can be divided into two main sections: one labelled "Nikkeijin/Nikkei/Nikkei people" (which would contain almost all of the content of the current article), and one labelled "Japanese nationals living abroad" (which can handle both expatriates, and people who aren't ethnic Japanese but hold Japanese nationality and live abroad). A third section could refer to historical issues, such as those Japanese people who were not allowed to return to the country when it was closed, or those who were persecuted after Christianity became controversial. Dekimasu 06:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
</blockquote>
[[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 06:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
:Why couldn't those be in separate articles? There's a large difference between emigrants and descendants and temporary residents with citizenship in a different country. There might be kinship with Japanese nationals, but I don't think they're in a similar category to Nikkei. This applies in most cases of nationals abroad. For example, do you feel German Americans (i.e. most whites in America) to be the same as German foreign exchange students and business men visiting America? [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 06:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/search.aspx?q=nikkei&Submit2=Go MSN Encarta] appears to define "Nikkei" in English. "Nikkei" is used more often in the Americas (in English, of course), and is embraced by the "Nikkei" people themselves. Whoever is citing [[WP:UE]] is just plain wrong.--[[User:Endroit|Endroit]] 19:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
*"''Cinderella on Ice''" is the ice skating version of the Cinderella story.
=== Wikipedia:Naming conflict resolution ===
To anyone, either for or against the move: I don't have the time today or tomorrow to do it myself, but we might want to make a point relating to [[Wikipedia:Naming conflict#How to make a choice among controversial names]] or a table of the same kind as is shown there. I am not sure whether it works for or against the proposed title, but it seems like it would be a good policy reference and a fair gauge of the situation. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 05:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
"''Cinderella on Ice''" was staged in the [[Queen Street Mall, Brisbane|Queen Street Mall]], in [[Brisbane]], [[Queensland]], [[Australia]], as part of Brisbane's [[Christmas]] celebrations.
I've pretty much already did most of that already, but if you want it more formalized, then Nikkei still clearly wins.
:{| border=1
|-
| width=70% | '''Criterion'''
| width=15% | '''Nikkei (people)'''
| width=15% | '''Nikkeijin'''
| width=15% | '''ethnic Japanese'''
| width=15% | '''Overseas Japanese'''
| width=15% | '''Japanese diaspora'''
|-
| 1. Most commonly used name in English
| Yes
| No
| No
| No
| No
|-
| 2. Current undisputed official name of entity
| Partially (Nikkei organizations)
| Partially (in Japanese)
| No
| No
| No
|-
| 3. Current self-identifying name of entity
| Partially
| Partially
| No
| No
| No
|-
| ''1 pt = yes, 0pt = no. Totals with partials in parenthesis.''
| 1 (2)
| 0 (1)
| 0 (0)
| 0 (0)
| 0 (0)
|}
===Books===
''Do not invent names as a means of compromising between opposing POVs. Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names.''
* ''[[Witches Abroad]]'' by [[Terry Pratchett]]
* ''[[Ella Enchanted]]'' by [[Gail Carson Levine]]
* ''[[Just Ella]]'' by [[Margaret Peterson Haddix]]
* ''[[The Glass Slipper]]'' by [[Eleanor Farjeon]]
* ''[[Phoenix and Ashes]]'' by [[Mercedes Lackey]]
* ''[[Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister]]'' by [[Gregory Maguire]]
* ''[[I was a Rat! or The Scarlet Slippers]] by [[Philip Pullman]]
* ''[[The Ash Girl]]'' by [[Timberlake Wertenbaker]]
* ''[[Cinderalla]]'' by [[Junko Mizuno]]
* ''[[Nine Coaches Waiting]]'' by [[Mary Stewart]]
* ''[[Bound]]'' by [[Donna Jo Napoli]]
===Concept Albums===
* ''[[Chipmunks in Low Places]]'', a 1992 album by [[John Boylan]] and [[The Chipmunks]] (tracks 4-7 only), retells the story but moves the setting to 1992 [[South Central Los Angeles]].
===Cinderella Jumprope Song===
''Identification of common names using external references
There is a [[jumprope]] song for children that involves Cinderella:
A number of methods can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.
Cinderella dressed in yellow, went upstairs to kiss a fellow.
* The Google test
Made a mistake and kissed a snake, how many doctors did it take?
*:'''nikkei''' "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person" OR "Japanese descent" -"wikipedia"
1, 2, 3, 4, 5…
*::122,000
*:'''"ethnic Japanese"''' "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person" OR "Japanese descent" -"wikipedia"
*::19,100 (note that the term is still ambiguous and therefore ''inflated'' compared to the others. I'm not gonna sort through it, obviously)
*:'''"overseas japanese" OR "Japanese overseas"''' "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person" OR "Japanese descent" -"wikipedia"
*::9,650
*:'''nikkeijin''' "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person" OR "Japanese descent" -"wikipedia"
*::856
*:'''"japanese diaspora"''' "asian american" OR "Japanese american" OR "Japanese Brazilian" OR immigrants OR "Japanese person" OR "Japanese descent" -"wikipedia"
*::485
* ''International organisations.
*:UN.org Supports Nikkeijin and Nikkei
* ''Major English-language media outlets.'' I used Google news, as it seems BBC archives do not support boolean operators. I don't know how the CNN archives work -- they seem to just be google searches rather than archives.
*:'''nikkei''' (including same search constraints from above)
*::6
*:'''"ethnic Japanese"''' (including same search constraints from above)
*::0 (there were two entries, one was referencing ''Japanese nationals'' in a taiko group, the other was ambiguous)
*:'''nikkeijin''' (including same search constraints from above)
*::0
*:'''"overseas japanese" OR "Japanese overseas"''' (including same search constraints from above)
*::0
*:'''"japanese diaspora"''' (including same search constraints from above)
*::0
* ''Reference works. Check other encyclopedias.''
*:Nikkei
*::[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nikkei Dictionary.com-RHD],[http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/search.aspx?q=nikkei&Submit2=Go Encarta], [http://www.oed.com/help/updates/necial-nipissing.html OED] (They reference JAs rather than Nikkei in general, however)
*:Nikkeijin
*:: [http://www.oed.com/help/updates/necial-nipissing.html OED]
*:Japanese Diaspora
*:: [http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/search.aspx?q=japanese+diaspora&Submit2=Go Encarta] brings up migration
*:Ethnic Japanese
*:: [http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/search.aspx?q=ethnic+japanese&Submit2=Go Encarta] brings up information on Japanese nationals, obviously not what we want
*:Overseas Japanese
*:: N/A, add any that you find
* ''Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp.''
*:N/A, its searching doesn't complete (inefficient algorithm, probably)
They count for every jump you make. The more jumps, the more numbers, the highest score.
Correct any errors as you please, but don't change data unless you have proof of it.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
== Footnotes ==
:The stats above are misleading at best. An English language Google search of "nikkei people" reveals '''204''' hits, where "ethnic Japanese" clocks in at '''58,300'''. A somewhat more reliable Google Book search revels "nikkei people" '''10''', "ethnic Japanese" '''464'''. And Google Scholar "nikkei people" '''17''', "ethnic Japanese" '''459'''.
<div class="references-small"><references/></div>
:Further, obviously everyone's going to want the article titled with the term they are most used to but it's necessary to respect terms used by other people. Ethnic Japanese is used by many people, its use is clear from context in the same way native English speakers can tell a spoken "there" from a "their". Really, I think any of the terms suggested throughout this page are fine, including all nikkei variations, but, to put it simply, ethnic Japanese was here first. As a bonus, it's the most common term. Also, I, as an English speaker, know what nekkei means but am in the minority. Aside from all that, nikkei's still mentioned right alongside ethnic Japanese in the article. All using ethnic Japanese as the title does is help more people find the page via search engines. I still don't see what the big deal is.
:Also, I'm changing the intro back to something a little more encyclopedic. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ethnic_Japanese&oldid=101962340 23 references in a row] and fact tag bit were amusing but it's been there long enough. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 09:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
::Falsedef removed those citations of his own accord and moved them to the talk page; you seem to be willfully ignoring it by linking to an old version.
::The two citations that remained helped verify the article and did nothing to retract from its usefulness (although it would have been good to have a reference on ethnic Japanese as well). I see no reason why the names shouldn't be cited. And finally, ''this is not an established page title''. This was a redirect until December 18th, and we started to discuss the title as soon as the title started to cause confusion... that is, as soon as it came into being (no offense intended to cab). [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 11:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:::The burden of proof is upon Doctor to provide his sources. I don't believe there is a source, and I'm not gonna bother looking for one for him. I can remove the term "ethnic Japanese" completely from the article intro until he provides sources. At the moment, I've left it open for him to provide a citation. If he edits it again, I'll begin vandal warnings, as he'll be beyond good faith.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 14:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Nevermind, I've removed it completely. He can readd it when he finds a source.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 14:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
::Your searches are misleading, not mine. We want a title that is relevant to the discussion and this article page. Nikkei brings up '''20,200,000''' search hits -- I've already mentioned this before (top of the page along with total "Ethnic Japanese" hits). The whole debate for the past weeks has pivoted around "ethnic Japanese" being ambiguous. Please take the time to understand this issue. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 13:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Dekimasu, that falsedef is willing to deface the article and issue threats about "religiously editing" the article are very relevant. The citations are unnecessary as the terms can be confirmed by hundreds of sources, including dictionaries. Check any featured article and see how many titles and terms are cited, i.e., [[Sun]]. If any of his citations are useful they should be moved to external links. And from the page history it started as ethnic Japanese in February 2003 and was only used as a redirect for about 6 months last year. I don't believe there's any confusion (maybe one person) but rather nitpicking. Namely the argument that the term can be applied to a different definition. It's the same as the hundreds or thousands of American English v. commonwealth English debates across Wikipedia.
:::falsedef, you're honestly accusing me of being a vandal? Qualify that. There are hundreds of sources available, as I've already indicated several times, at Google Books (And rember this: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/ethnic+Japanese ?). You've failed to mention that the "nikkei" results will be inflated by various financial references including [[Nikkei 225]]. Google Books also revels only 1000 hits for "nekkei" and Google Scholar has 15,400 but those numbers are also inflated as indicated by a cursory glance at the search results. Besides which, that's not the issue of this move request, you've opted to go with "nikkei people". [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 20:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Re:whether page title is established. Yes, it was also a page before. That page was successfully merged into [[Japanese people]] without incident. And now we are arguing whether this page title is ambiguous based on the definition of [[Japanese people]]. The page came back with actual content on December 18th, and we started to discuss problems with the title on December 20th. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 04:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::"Ethnic Japanese" is also inflated, that's why I used search constraints. You still don't udnerstand the point of making the searches relevant by adding the constraints. Anyways, stop referencing articles that reference wikipedia that is disallowed. Please read [[Wikipedia:Naming conflict]]:
:::::''The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term.'' - [[Wikipedia:Naming conflict]]
::::Add a proper source that defines ethnic Japanese, until then you're vandalizing the page.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 01:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::Again, I'm going to ask you to stop being rude. You failed to mention ''nikkei'' was inflated and you shouldn't be using OR in your searches. Even then, numbers are beside the point, look at the graph on [[Talk:Humour/Spelling]]. And come to think of it, why are you altering the lead when there's no consensus? The move request hasn't even closed yet. It should be reverted to before the move request was placed. Show me an FA that cites a common term or lists more that 2 or 3 alternates in the lead. An inline citation is not required. As long as we're providing reading material I'd like you to look over [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:VAND]]. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 03:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::Look again at the top of the talkpage. I've stated that Nikkei needed to be disambiguated (constrained) so that the page hits would be relevant (not inflated). I did that, and you can view the progression yourself at the top of the page. No matter what happens, Nikkei will win out as more common over ethnic Japanese. And stop calling me rude. I've given you enough chances to meet WP:V. You keep glancing over it, even though it is a core policy. I have no OR, all my cites are not OR. I have common usage research on this page, however this is a talk page, not article space (talk pages do not need to meet OR, V, or NPOV rules). Again:
:::::::''Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people. Jimmy Wales has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. '''Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced.''' This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." [2]'' - [[WP:V]]
::::::Please provide your cites. No consensus is needed until you do so. Is this so hard to get through your head? I've said it about 10 times on this talk page. Without verifiability you are in the wrong. You can keep claiming that I'm being rude, but my tone is only this way because you're trying my patience. I have put a lot of work into finding verifiable sources and common usage -- you have done nothing but give one bad cite and a few unverifiable claims. Provide your cites. Provide your cites. Provide your cites. Do you understand now?[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 04:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Your search method is flawed. Examine:
:::::::dog big - 112,000,000
:::::::dog big OR red - 150,000,000
:::::::Yet, I'm not getting what I want. I don't see anything on what I was looking for...
:::::::big red dog - 43,300,000
:::::::Bingo! Tons of hits for Clifford the Big Red Dog! Now, you've been rude since you got here, blaming your "tone" on me does not excuse it. Did you read the vandalism link? Am I a vandal? Again, terms that can be easily verified by any number of online webpages and books do not need inline citation. A term is not what's meant by content. You want me to post a link so that you'll believe ethnic Japanese is legitimate? Even though you've evidently come across thousands of links to such in your research? Even though I've told you hundreds of sources can be found at Google Books? Is that it? Will that make you happy? Here you go: [http://www.ww2pacific.com/relocation.html]. Enjoy. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 08:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::I'm sure you can find a reliable source, but that isn't a [[WP:RS]] source, nor does it distinguish between emigrants and their descendants (''Nikkeijin'') and Japanese nationals. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 08:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Honestly, if you're not going to bring anything, stay out of it. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::How does that cite define what "ethnic Japanese" means? It doesn't. We've been discussing ambiguous naming for the past few weeks, yet you've still failed to understand the issue. I'm asking for you to learn what the issue is before barging in head first with your claims. Ambiguity is when something can have multiple meanings, or the meaning is not well defined. Currently Ethnic Japanese has a meaning that refers to multiple people (such as Japanese in Japan and Japanese born outside of Japan), some of which do not pertain to this article (Japanese nationals in Japan).[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 09:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Third time: Am I a vandal? Yes or no? I've addressed ambiguity and context numerous times. Does [[Lemon]] discuss lousy cars? That's context. You want me to waste more of my time explaining what's already acknowledged by the fact that ethnic Japanese redirected here even when Dekimasu moved the page? Sure, why not. [http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0333636864&id=NMiq5YZCDeMC&pg=RA1-PA173&lpg=RA1-PA173&dq=%22ethnic+Japanese%22&sig=01IdmPauTdwCWXw46MI3rCUqJ-Y#PRA1-PA3,M1 Here], if the log in screen comes up click anywhere on the right pannel. Be sure to check out page three especially. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::You show yet again that you do not understand the issue with the citations you are giving. that citation does not disambiguate or define what ethnic Japanese means. Can I be any more clear on this issue? Can you take the time to understand why this is the issue? Can you take the time to find a proper source that defines what ethnic Japanese means. You continue to barge head on without understanding the core problem to the article name. And yes, removing my citations and information is vandalism along with adding incorrect and uncited information. Would you like to see the warning templates?
:::::::::::[[Image:Information.png|25px]] Please do not delete content from articles on Wikipedia{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{1|}}}|, as you did to [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. If you continue to do so, it may be considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. If you would like to experiment, please use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. {{{2|Thank you.}}}<!-- {{uw-delete2}} -->
:::::::::::[[Image:Nuvola_apps_important.svg|25px]] Please stop. If you continue to add [[WP:V|unsourced]] or [[WP:NOR|original content]]{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{1|}}}|, as you did to [[:{{{1}}}]]}}, you '''will''' be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing Wikipedia. {{{2|}}}<!-- {{uw-unsourced3}} -->
:::::::::::[[Image:Information.png|25px]] Please do not introduce incorrect information into articles{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{1|}}}|, as you did to [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. If you continue to do so, it may be considered [[Wikipedia:Vandalism|vandalism]]. If you believe the information you added was correct, please [[WP:CITE|cite references or sources]] or discuss the changes on the article's [[WP:TALK|talk page]] before making them again. If you would like to experiment, use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]]. {{{2|Thank you.}}}<!-- {{uw-error2}} -->
::::::::::I have not initiated warnings on your page, since I've given a good faith warning on this talk page. You've already violated the article space twice by moving it and deleting my cites. Until you provide citations, you may not add ethnic Japanese as the article name in the intro. You keep assuming that you're somehow above giving reliable and accurate sources. How many times must I tell you this? I'm not being condescending, you're just ignoring what we are asking of you. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 22:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::So now you want me to crack open some more dictionaries again, huh? Well, now I know where to go for all my insult, threat and bullshit needs. Good talk. I'll call you. Tah. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 22:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::Resorting to snide remarks does not help your arguments. You again avoid work to find actual evidence for your claims. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 22:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
==GoogleExternal searchlinks==
{{commonscat}}
I'll be nice and explain what constraints are for. The AND boolean operator is inherent in the search. However, there's only one constraint (decrease in sample space) we want to set up, the article word (e.g. nikkei) and the relationship to the definition (e.g. Japanese Americans are nikkei, Japanese immigrants are nikkei). To set up this relation, you need one AND operator (automatically included) and as many OR operators as their are contexts relevant (together, they form one larger constraint). It doesn't matter if you're talking about "Japanese Americans" or "Japanese Brazilians", because they both are Nikkei, therefore the search should be a merge operator (in this case the sample space constraints are merged with the OR operator).
{{wikisource}}
*[http://www.fairyland.tv/fairytales/cinderella.html Fairyland Cinderella]
*[http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/cinderella/index.html SurLaLune Fairy Tales.com: The Annotated Cinderella]
*[http://edsitement.neh.gov/view_lesson_plan.asp?id=419 Teaching aid to "Cinderella"]: many links; variations in character, setting, and plot elements, parallel versions
*[http://www.public.iastate.edu/~lhagge/cenerent.htm Cenerentola by Giambattista Basile (English translation)]
*[http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext00/pntmn10.txt Cenerentola in Pentamerone by Giambattista Basile (English translation)]
*[http://library.campbellhall.org/secondary%20pages/Looking%20for%20a%20Good%20Book/cinderella.htm Ahmanson Library page about Cinderella]
*[http://www.paroledautore.net/fiabe/classiche/basile/gattacenerentola.htm Zezzolla, La Gatta Cenerentola "Cinderella" by Giambattista Basile - (original, Italian version)]
*The Disney version of [http://www.disneyshorts.org/years/1922/cinderella.html Cinderella] at [http://www.disneyshorts.org The Encyclopedia of Disney Animated Shorts]
*[http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythslippers.htm Aesop fable of Rhodopis and her rose-red slippers]
*[http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Article/461904 The Egyptian Cinderella]
[[Category:Fairy tales]]
[[Category:Brothers Grimm]]
[[Category:Characters in written fiction]]
[[Category:fictional princesses]]
[[Category:Kingdom Hearts characters]]
[[Category:Characters in the Disney animated features canon]]
[[Category:Fairy tale stock characters]]
[[ca:La Ventafocs]]
The search is basically two components, the word we are trying to define, and the context it is in:
[[cs:Popelka]]
:''word'' AND ''context''
[[da:Askepot]]
In google, word AND context can be represented by "word" "context". However, since there are many contexts to which the word is applicable, we want to include the applicable contexts:
[[de:Aschenputtel]]
:''word'' AND ''context'' OR ''context2'' OR ''context3''
[[es:Cenicienta]]
Within google parsing, this is equivalent to:
[[fr:Cendrillon]]
:''word'' AND (''context'' OR ''context2'' OR ''context3'')
[[ko:신데렐라]]
Which is equivalent to:
[[id:Cinderella]]
:''word'' ''context'' OR ''context2'' OR ''context3''
[[it:Cenerentola (personaggio)]]
This is also equivalent to:
[[he:סינדרלה]]
:(''word'' AND ''context'') OR (''word'' AND ''context2'') OR (''word'' AND ''context3'')
[[nl:Assepoester]]
The above shows a how logic and reasoning is defined for the searches. In one instance, people might be talking about Japanese Americans, and they use the word nikkei to refer to them. However, in another case, they might be talking about Japanese Brazilians, and still use the word nikkei to describe them. Both contexts are accurate depictions of the meaning of nikkei and therefore those two searches can be [[Union (set theory)|unioned]] together (add total number of websites, and eliminate duplicates).
[[ja:シンデレラ]]
[[no:Askepott]]
[[pl:Kopciuszek (bajka)]]
An example of the above "word/term" AND ("context"):
[[pt:Cinderela]]
:nikkei AND "Japanese Americans"
[[fi:Tuhkimo]]
Which is equivalent to:
[[sv:Askungen]]
:nikkei "Japanese Americans"
[[tr:Külkedisi]]
Or another example with two correct contexts:
[[zh:灰姑娘]]
:nikkei AND ("Japanese Americans" OR "Japanese Brazilians")
This is a good context, since both Japanese americans and Japanese Brazilians are Japanese emigrants and their descendants (the sample space is what the article speaks about).
Which is equivalent to:
:nikkei "Japanese Americans" OR "Japanese Brazilians"
By adding context to a term, we can make sure that it has little chance of meaning something else. In this case, we wish to make sure "ethnic Japanese" DOES NOT mean Japanese nationals (Japanese nationals are not Japanese Americans, and therefore have a smaller chance of being within the sample space of "ethnic Japanese" AND "Japanese Americans"). However, since "ethnic Japanese" has such a loose meaning, even with the constraints above, the numbers of ethnic Japanese hits are inflated more than the other terms. This is because when talking about the nikkei AND "Japanese Americans" there is almost no chance you'd be talking about the stock market (since nikkei has very precise meanings which rarely collide).
Even when constrained equally to multiple contexts, Nikkei has more hits. The more and better constraints you add, Nikkei will continue to dominate "ethnic Japanese", despite "ethnic Japanese" still having a more ambiguous sample space after each constraint.
"ethnic Japanese" and "nikkei" are unrestrained sample spaces. When a constraint is added, the sample space SHRINKS, but even after shrinking the sample space of nikkei into our proper context, it still has more hits than the unrestrained "ethnic Japanese".
"ethnic Japanese"
:62,900
nikkei -> nikkei AND "Japanese Americans"
:19,500,000 -> 68,900
nikkei AND "Japanese Americans" '''68,900''' > '''62,900''' "ethnic Japanese"
After constraining to a very good context on Nikkei (it is now '''unambiguous'''), it still beats the unbound ('''ambiguous''') "ethnic Japanese". This is already enough proof that Nikkei has greater common usage than MULITPLE meanings of "Ethnic Japanese", i.e. more people identify Nikkei to mean Japanese emigrants and descendants (Japanese Americans) than people identify "ethnic Japanese" to mean Japanese nationals or Japanese abroad.
Please take the time to understand what the above means before you comment to this, as ambiguity is important to the discussion. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 09:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::Don't condescend to me. As I demonstrated, you cannot guaranty that because they use one term they're going to use another, nor can you guaranty in which context any of the terms are used. One could be discussing ''nikkei'' in the financial context and then mention Japanese Americans, or one could be discussing ''nikkei'' in the context of people and mention no related terms, and vice versa. Everybody makes mistakes, I won't hold this over you head. Just fix it or strike it. And, again: you've opted for "nikkei people", not "nikkei" alone. If you wanted to disambiguate you should have used "nikkei (people)". [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::The chances of a Japanese stock market having anything to do with Japanese Americans is slim. The percentage of sample space collision of Japanese peoples (ethnic Japanese) being included in an article about Japanese Americans is greater. What are you trying to argue here? I've put the SAME constraints upon the sample space, and have even given ethnic Japanese a unbounded sample space, yet it still loses. If you would take the time to look at other articles, you'll see why Nikkei people is used. [[Ainu people]] (who are known as Ainu), [[Japanese people]] (who are commonly known as Japanese), [[Altay people]] (who are more commonly known as Altay), [[Chechen people]] (Chechens), [[Taz people]] (Taz), etc. You are wrong here, and you keep proving your ignorance of the subject at hand. If you'd like to prove me wrong, please provide some evidence. How many times will you ignore the call for evidence? [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 22:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::So you've perfected the art of the Google search have you? I'll inform the academy. How many times will you ignore my evidence? [[Gimme a Break! |[33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40]]]. This is farce now. If you can't understand my points, you're on your own. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 22:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
==Continued from last two sections==
:falsedef, you've called me an idiot, a vandal and told me everything I've said is wrong. How does that help anything at all? If you really want to know "what I'm trying to argue here" then here's my advice. Take a walk or go do something fun, come back, take a few deep breathes and read back over this page. I've presented my case clearly and I've addressed all of your points.
:Dekimasu, I saw your solicitations at WikiProject Japan and such. I didn't realize you thought of yourself as the voice of reason. I'd got the impression you were condoning falsedef's behaviour when you flattered him for undoing the article defacement and called me a dick, and so on. Maybe you can help settle some things, if you're still willing. Do you think the term ethnic Japanese needs an inline citation in the article space? Do you think it's original research or unverifiable? Do you think falsedef's Google test is spot on? Do you think falsedef has been civil? He's contradicted and/or disregarded everything I've said across the board, maybe he'll listen to you. Worth a shot, no? [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 13:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
:* Before the questions: I asked you to be civil mainly because I saw your coments to me after my effort to resolve the page name through a third title as condescending, and because you called my comments "bizarre". You had already applied the metawiki page to falsedef, so I won't claim credit for the idea. I hope you support my efforts to bring more people into the conversation.
:* 1) I think it '''would be helpful to have one citation from a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] in the article space for each term'''.
:* 2) I think that the name '''[[Ethnic Japanese]] is verifiable'''. Here is a reliable source: [http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/latin/brazil/index.html Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs], and although it's hard many sources that ''explicitly'' exclude people in Japan, sources that appear to equate "ethnic Japanese" with "ethnic Japanese minority" through context are fairly common.
:* 3) I have not attempted to sort through the Google searches relating to which term is more common, and '''falsedef could be wrong about the Google searches. However, because [[Ethnic Japanese]] fails [[WP:DAB]] it is already disqualified before googling'''. Here is an ambiguous source: [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0095-6848(197924)5%3A1%3C53%3ATEJIB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S Journal of Japanese Studies]. Here is a reliable source that means "Japanese people": [http://www.asiaquarterly.com/content/view/168/ Harvard Asia Quarterly]. ---Therefore, I tried to determine whether "Nikkei" passes [[WP:UE]], and I decided that it did due to its status as a self-identifier and its use in the academic community. But as I have said several times, I will support any precise and unambiguous title. It doesn't have to be "Nikkei".
:* 4) '''I don't believe either side is being civil, but I believe both sides are acting in good faith'''. You told me to "stay out of it" if I'm not going to "bring anything". Falsedef is trying to "bring it", and although I don't think he is editing from a neutral perspective, he is trying to abide by policy. Insults on intelligence and character are bad. Of course I don't believe either side is trying to put this page at a bad title intentionally, so I'm not particularly upset myself.
:* Finally: Yes, I see my position as between yours and falsedef's. I proposed [[Nikkei people]], and the move failed to pass. I thought [[Japanese diaspora]] would solve the problem, but it didn't. I thought [[Overseas Japanese]] would resolve the [[WP:UE]] debate, but it hasn't. If [[Ethnic Japanese]] is a redirect, and this page has an otheruses tag ("Ethnic Japanese redirects here. For the broader ethnic group, including residents of Japan, see [[Japanese people]]"), I will be perfectly happy. I still see no reason why that shouldn't happen. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 09:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Thank you, that is helpful. However,
:::1) a term that can be confirmed by hundreds or thousands of sources, including dictionaries, should have an inline citation in the lead? The lead is ideally citation free and any links defining the subject can be placed in external links, if they're useful, like every other article.
:::3) DAB we've already discussed but I feel it's covered by [[WP:ENGVAR]] and any small degree of ambiguity is no more so than any of the thousands of articles with the primary use listed clean and the disambig page listed with (disambiguation), or a tag like, ''For people of Japanese descent everywhere/in Japan, see Japanese people.''
:::4) You're an idiot. Of course, I don't mean that but am attempting illustrating a point. You haven't experienced of any of his attacks, an thus weren't expected to be a saint and turn the other cheek. I, on the other hand, have been on the receiving end of such, which is a wholly different experience. It's easy to say, or expect, one should ignore it but not only is it difficult to do so but undesirable. If I ignore it, I'm an enabler. I've raised my level of response appropriately but I've not been rude or insulted him. You claimed earlier I was condescending to you both but I assure you it's just my colourful way of speaking (and writing) and I'm not a malicious person.
:::5) Again, I think all of the terms are fine only I don't believe there's reasonable justification to switch. Small thing, "broader ethnic group" undermines the fact that it's a different definition. Overseas, again, seems fine except that by the semantic arguments I've seen here it can still include vacationers and temporary residents.[[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::Number 3 is the big thing here (and it's the cause of your opinion #5). Common usage for the hard things on the ground is [[rock]]s, but that's still a disambiguation page. Likewise I have never in my life said [[American football]], but the page is there because it requires disambiguation. Common usage for one definition does not override frequent usage for another. "Japanese people" are an ethnic group... a member of that ethnic group is an "ethnic Japanese" person. I know that's not what we want to get into, but I would also point out again that [[Ethnic Japanese]] would remain a redirect to an unambiguous title. This has the additional advantage of helping someone (probably me, as I do a lot of work with [[WP:DPL]] and page links relating to [[WP:JAPAN]]) identify which links are intentional (point directly to the page name) and which are possibly misdirected (those pointing to [[Ethnic Japanese]] would be separated out in "What links here").
::::I have commented a few times on [[WP:ENGVAR]], but it would be helpful to know exactly which part of it you mean. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 04:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Read my comment below on why documents use both Japanese and "ethnic Japanese". One implies directly lineage, while the other implies more than lineage (nationality in this case). That's an issue of keeping nationality separate, not keeping ethnicity separate (ethnic Japanese are definied only by ethnicity, while Japanese can mean ethnicity and nationality.) In fact, you might want to re-look at that citation, as it implies that Japanese Brazilians are inclusive of Japanese and "ethnic Japanese":
::::''Japanese and ethnic Japanese:''
::::*''Number of Japanese residing in Brazil: 83,803 (October 1998) ''
::::*''Population of Japanese descent: 1.3 million (estimated) ''
::::*''Number of Japanese-Brazilians working in Japan, 222,217 (December 1998).'' -[http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/latin/brazil/index.html]
:::Notice the lack of population figures for Japanese nationals in Japan, though it refers to both "Japanese and ethnic Japanese" (both refer to Brazilian nikkei)? The citation is NOT implying a separation that you're looking for, nor does it define ethnic Japanese. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::I think you may have misunderstood that citation. The lack of population figures for Japanese nationals in Japan is because this is the MOFA page relating to Brazil. Go to the MOFA page for many other countries and you can see the same apparent nationality (Japanese) vs. ethnicity (ethnic Japanese) contrast. The second number is clearly exclusive of the first number in their tallies, and I regret having chosen a country that didn't make that clear. If you take a look at the citations in [[:Template:Japanese ethnicity]], it becomes clear that that is the usage they are going for. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 15:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::Again, I believe the separate terms are due to the addition of nationalism, not an exclusion. No where does it directly define ethnic Japanese to be the term of this article. That is not a reliable source, as you're adding your own interpretation to its usage. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 09:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
:::As for me being rude, I'm just restating what needs to be done by Doctor Sunshine to be able to edit article space on wikipedia. So far he's still failed to produce any verifiability (sorry, but your citation fails as a definition, also, Deki), which is a huge problem for any editor of Wikipedia and something he needs to accept. I've said this a dozen times already, yet he still just fires back at me with opinions with no evidence, then claims I'm "contradicting" and "disregarded" everything he has said.
:::No, Doctor, I have not disregarded your claims. I have shown that it was faulty. That is not disregard -- I have actually taken your logic seriously enough to debate against it. If I were to disregard it, I would've ignored it completely (like you have done with my evidence, or "bullshit").
::: You need citations Doctor. This is not a rule I made up to spite you, it's been part of wikipedia since the beginning. Every time I've brought up your ignoring following wikipedia policy, you have brushed it off as being "rude" or "POV". (No where have I posted POV statements, that requires me to post opinions on the article space. There currently are no opinions on the article space, only information that I have cited. That is NPOV. ). You have gone as so far as to call my claims "bullshit" and my calls for accuracy to be "threats".
:::You need to realize that I didn't post warnings on your user space for YOUR benefit, not to make threats. I could've already put up a class 2 user warning. I didn't post a warning, because I didn't want to hurt your reputation. In turn, you have mocked me for it. By removing my information, even after me telling you that it'd be against policy, that is on the level of vandalism. These "threats" (warnings) that I have given you are just reiteration of wikipedia rules.
:::If you have a problem with my citing a contentious defintion, you may go to the wikipedia policy page, not argue about it with me here. I put up those cites in the beginning lines because they would be disputed otherwise. They will be removed once Nikkei is no longer contentious among editors here. As long as the information is cited reliably and states the information directly, then it follows Wikipedia core guidelines (No OR, NPOV, V). The google test was not my idea, it was originally done by CAB, which I then expanded for common usage, and then was asked to be done again by Dekimasu, as per naming dispute guidelines. Following naming dispute, Nikkei stands out as the clear winner, because you still haven't provided your own proof otherwise.
:::I'm willing to go to arbitration for this issue. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::By the way, I have never called you an idiot. Idiot only appears in CAB's book list and from your words. I said you were showing ''ignorance'' by ''ignoring'' (many times) the evidence I have set forth and the guidelines of Wikipedia core policy. I make no remarks about your intelligence, but rather your apathy to verifiability. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 09:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
== An idea ==
How about [[Ethnic Japanese outside of Japan]] or [[Expatriot Japanese]]? Either one would be very clear on what the article covered. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="darkblue">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">Talk</font>]] <font color="darkblue">to</font> [[WP:JA|Nihon]][[WP:MOS-JA|<font color="darkgreen">joe</font>]]</small></sup> 04:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:I think "expatriot" implies nationality rather than ethnicity, and wouldn't apply to Japanese Americans born and raised in the USA, for example. However, the reasoning behind [[Ethnic Japanese outside of Japan]] is the same as that of [[Overseas Japanese]] and I would support it. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 05:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:Common usage for Nikkei is more than for either of those. Restating my arguments above, Nikkei people are researched and are a subject by themselves. Ethnic Japanese outside of Japan (or expatriates) would include temporary residents, students, and even tourists/travelers. Though similar to Nikkei, their intentions and culture diverge greatly.[[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 05:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::At the risk of getting myself embroiled in yet another wikidebate, and at risk of you all saying "who invited him to the party", here's my two cents: ''if'' this is an article about people of Japanese ethnicity in Japan and abroad, then [[Ethnic Japanese]] seems a fine name. ''If'', on the other hand, this is meant to be an article about people of Japanese descent living outside Japan, then we should use ''[[Nikkei]]'', a term which is used and acknowledged by just about any scholar of Japanese studies, and which has a fairly specific meaning not adequately covered by English-language terms like "overseas Japanese", which as Falsedef points out conflates Japanese nationals on holiday (or living abroad temporarily) with Japanese-Americans or others who are not Japanese nationals. So, ultimately, this isn't really a question of what the article should be called, but what the content is meant to focus on. That determined, the choice of title should become obvious. [[User:LordAmeth|LordAmeth]] 10:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::I don't think anyone has proposed that we should add residents of Japan to this article yet (although forsooth that'll come forth forthwith to further foil efforts at specification). I invite you to vote, verily. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 10:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::There's so much discussion, the voting got kind of lost in there - didn't see it. Thanks for pointing it out. [[User:LordAmeth|LordAmeth]] 12:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::I think the one thing we can all agree on is that this is a great, big clusterfuck. However, pretty much everything that's been suggested here, and all of the redirects, are pointing at a very similar subject. The logical thing to do would be to allow the article to address all of the suggestions (note: in it's own time (and I do not mean that every term needs to be listed right off the bat in the lead, but introduced naturally and as necessary)) and explain the differences. If ''nikkeijin'' don't identify with vacationers and temporary residents: explain that in the article but don't exclude them. It's not likely anything about vacationers or temporary residents is going to ruin or overrun the article. They're all valid, related terms. As for which term gets the distinguished honour of being the title? Well, [[WP:CCC|consensus can change]], or in this case, develop. Give it 2 to 6 months, and if it's still bothering you, try another move request. Reasonable? [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Um. I think the content of this article is not even the major problem. The problem is that there is one article named [[Japanese people]] and one article named [[Ethnic Japanese]] and both of those article names mean the same thing. Is it ok to put all of the stuff from [[Japanese people]] at the top of this article? If it's not ok then there is a title problem, whatever "no consensus" means. [[User:210.189.164.103|210.189.164.103]] 03:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::It can also mean a smaller ethnic group within a larger group. That's the primary meaning especially in multicultural countries like the US and Canada. The definition is what all the squabbling here has been about, really. [[Wikipedia:Consensus|Consensus]] is one of the founding principles of Wikipedia, or so I'm told. By the way, I don't think the vacationer bit is necessary myself but I mention that because it seemed to be a bit of a sticking point with Dekimasu and falsedef. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 09:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::I agree with Doctor Sunshine. Ethnic Japanese only refers to Japanese that don't live in Japan. Oxford says, "Ethnic - of or relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition." The only mention of Nikkei in Oxford is Nikkei index - a figure indicating the relative price of representative shares on the Tokyo Stock Exchange. [[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] 15:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Do you understand that ethnic Japanese means Japanese in Japan when cultural context is used? When heritage is used, nikkei are included with Japanese nationals. And you're wrong about oxford, OED has both nikkei and nikkeijin: http://www.oed.com/help/updates/necial-nipissing.html, as already cited above. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 00:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::I don't think the Japanese living in Japan would be considered a subgroup of Japan's dominant cultural group. Do you have access to the definitions for these words? In the Heritage dictionary, the Nikkei entry only defines the stock exchange.[http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/N0107350.html][http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/ahdsearch?search_type=enty&query=nikkei&db=ahd&Submit=Search] The quarterly update you pointed to is described officially as a draft, but I've applied for the trial subscription to the Oxford English Dictionary Online to see what these two definitions say. Approval will take at most two business days according to the advertisement. [[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] 06:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::The definition of "ethnic" you are using is not the only one we have been talking about; for example, see [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic this], particularly the AHED entry that lists the two relevant meanings as 1a (the culture as a whole, see [[Japanese people]]) and 1b (the contents of this article). [[Japanese people]] are an ethnic group (as per the lead of that article); a member of that group, including a resident of Japan, is "ethnic Japanese". There are really two different problems at work here: whether to approve the proposed name, and whether to change the current name. The answer to the first one is not clear, but I think the answer to the second one is clear. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 07:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::For examples of reliable sources that use ethnic Japanese to mean those in Japan (nonexclusive): [http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-203169 Enc. Britannica], [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11458981&dopt=Abstract NCBI], [http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v7/n10/full/4001152a.html Nature], [http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/asian_perspectives/v039/39.1lycett.pdf UChicago professor], [http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/ontheroad/japan.sapporo.ainu.html Time]. For example, Britannica states, ''The population of Japan is very homogeneous, consisting almost entirely of ethnic Japanese.'' Anyways, even if OED lacks Nikkei, there's still many other scholarly sources that use it and define it. I don't know why'd you pay just to check for OED, when that's just one source? [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 08:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Well, I think I'm fine with using "Nikkei people" as an article title. I really liked those Google searches above. I would recomend using advanced searches so that you can exclude the word "wikipedia" and search only in English pages, though. [[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] 20:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I should mention that falsedef's Google searches are under dispute and he's searching for nikkei instead of "nikkei people" which is a very uncommon term and improper usage. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::''If you would take the time to look at other articles, you'll see why Nikkei people is used. [[Ainu people]] (who are known as Ainu), [[Japanese people]] (who are commonly known as Japanese), [[Altay people]] (who are more commonly known as Altay), [[Chechen people]] (Chechens), [[Taz people]] (Taz), etc. You are wrong here, and you keep proving your ignorance of the subject at hand. If you'd like to prove me wrong, please provide some evidence. How many times will you ignore the call for evidence?'' -requoted, since you still don't understand what disambiguation is for. LEARN ABOUT DISAMBIGUATION. It's been quite awhile, yet you still haven't picked up on it. "ethnic Japanese" is ambiguous, "nikkei" is ambiguous. Nikkei however, is correct usage, therefore standard procedure is to add "people", and is typical when talking about groups, like the examples above. Did you want more examples? You gonna keep ignoring every example I bring up, and dismiss it all out of ignorance? Are you gonna troll those articles too ("Hey guys, why are you using Chechen peoples instead of Chechens? Hey, why are you using Ainu people instead of Ainu?", etc., etc.). You gonna keep pressing your ''opinions'', yet with no proof? My opinions have been validated over and over on this talk page. Your opinions have only been reinterpretations of previous meanings. You can't keep redefining what ethnic Japanese means without proof, and dismiss scholarly definitions with none of your own. [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 01:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::::The -"wikipedia" in the searches already excludes wikipedia from its searching, however I failed to remove non-English pages. I noticed this awhile ago, but when I re-did the searches, the ratio still remained the same (Nikkei > "ethnic Japanese" in all forms by an order of magnitude) by a factor of around ~+5%, so I didn't bother redoing all the numbers. Anyone may verify this themselves (but be careful because wikipedia's advanced search incorrectly parses booleans from its normal search). [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 01:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
===An idea, 2===
How about [[Ethnic Japanese minorities]] (or the singular, if necessary)? Smallest change suggested yet, but also clarifies the focus well. Can't think of any problems with it off the top of my head. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 09:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, but no. "Ethnic Japanese" means all people of Japanese ethnic descent, ''including those in Japan'', and excluding those people who live in Japan, and may even be Japanese citizens, but are not of Japanese ethnic heritage (i.e. Japanese blood, Japanese descent). If you ask an Englishman in England what his ethnicity is, or if you ask the same man the same question when he is in Paris, the answer will not change. Ethnicity has nothing to do with where you are, only with where your ancestors, that is to say your genetic/blood heritage, comes from. [[User:LordAmeth|LordAmeth]] 17:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I'm a little confused by your response. I agree with the things you said, but adding the word "minority" excludes people in Japan, since ethnic Japanese make up the majority there. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]] 04:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I am also confused. Don't we want the name of the article's title to exclude people living in Japan? [[User:Jecowa|Jecowa]] 05:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Yet not if you asked an American or Canadian.[http://www.k-state.edu/ameth/][http://www.statcan.ca/english/census96/feb17/ethnic.htm] I'd imagine that's how the North American meaning developed. Further than that, Would the English or Parisian fellow likely say "I'm ethnic blank" or "I'm blank". The natural and intuitive title for an article about an entire people is Blank people. Here, not only ethnic Japanese covered by [[WP:ENGVAR]] but it's also easily understandable by those outside of multicultural countries, in my humble opinion. [[User:Doctor Sunshine|Doctor Sunshine]] 21:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::After reading a fair number of documents, mostly about JA internment. I believe a large portion of confusion is stemming from people misinterpreting ethnicity and nationality distinctions. When someone refers to nikkei as "ethnic Japanese" as opposed to "Japanese", the distinction is made due to nationality. "Ethnic Japanese" are bound by heritage and culture -- this is in contrast to nationality which is also described as "Japanese". Therefore there are documents that refer to both Japanese and "ethnic Japanese". The distinction is based upon nationality, not ethnicity (both Japanese in Japan and Japanese in other countries are bound by blood). When Japanese Americans were interned, most were American born, and therefore "ethnic Japanese" in the sense of having the same ethnicity (bloodline) as Japanese nationals, but not necessarily the same citizenship which would be encompassed when talking about "Japanese". When speaking about Germans, we mostly refer to the ones living in the country Germany, but this is not to say that they are a separate ethnicity, but because they are of separate nationality. By using the term ethnic, it implies solely blood relation or culture, but does not always include nationality (though it often does, due to proximity and national language). [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 01:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::For a more formal implication:
::::*ethnic Japanese (Japanese peoples) -> ancestry OR culture
::::*Japanese -> ancestry OR culture OR nationality -> "ethnic Japanese" OR nationality
::::*Nikkei -> ancestry NOT nationality -> "ethnic Japanese" NOT nationality
:::Hope this helps. It should be noted that nationality (country of identification) does not always mean citizenship in this example. Also, Dekimasu, I understand you wanting to appease the most people as possible, however, we shouldn't be make up new names for peoples. Nikkei is already established and well documented in English, and therefore Nikkei peoples should be used (adjective, not noun [http://www.janm.org/projects/inrp/]). [[User:Falsedef|falsedef]] 02:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
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