Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial: Difference between revisions

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== Rowgroups and plainrowheaders ==

Hi, currently in the `Complex tables` section (but not in any section previous), it is recommended to use scope=rowgroup for row headers that are part of a rowspan. I was going to add this to my accessibility reviews at [[WP:FLC]], but quickly found out that the 'plainrowheaders' table class doesn't seem to affect scope=rowgroup cells, only scope=row. Is this a known issue? For example:

{| class="wikitable sortable plainrowheaders"

|+{{sronly|Awards and nominations received by Anne Hathaway}}

|-

! scope="col" | Organizations

! scope="col" | Year

! scope="col" | Recipient(s)

! scope="col" | Category

! scope="col" | Result

|-

!scope="rowgroup" rowspan="2"| [[Academy Awards]] {{anchor|A}}

| [[81st Academy Awards|2009]]

| ''[[Rachel Getting Married]]''

| [[Academy Award for Best Actress|Best Actress]]

| {{nom}}

|-

| [[85th Academy Awards|2013]]

| ''[[Les Misérables (2012 film)|Les Misérables]]''

| [[Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress|Best Supporting Actress]]

| {{won}}

|-

!scope="row"| [[Alliance of Women Film Journalists]]

| 2009

| ''[[Rachel Getting Married]]''

|Best Ensemble Cast

| {{won}}

|}

plainrowheaders is affecting the second non-spanned row but not the first, spanned row. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 15:10, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

:{{re|PresN}} I created an issue for it here: [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css#Plainrowheaders row and rowgroup scopes]]. [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 21:25, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

::{{re|Jroberson108}} Thanks! --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 22:24, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

:::This is now fixed. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 17:56, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

== Row with blank data ==

I created a table, which has became the subject of an edit war between admins and an anon editor. The table is as below (prior to the edit war):

{| class="wikitable sortable plainrowheaders" style="text-align: left; border-spacing: 2px; border: 1px solid darkgray;"

|+List of special service brigades

! width="15%" scope="col" |Formation name

! width="5%" scope="col" |Date formed

! width="5%" scope="col" |Wartime date ceased to exist

! width="5%" scope="col" |Location(s) served

! width="10%" scope="col" |Notable campaign(s)

! class="unsortable" width="55%" scope="col" |Notes

! class="unsortable" width="5%" scope="col" |Source(s)

|-

! scope="row" align="center" |[[1st Special Service Brigade]]

| align="center" |{{dts|November 1943}}

| align="center" |N/A

| align="center" |Italy, UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany

| align="center" |[[Allied invasion of Sicily]], [[Operation Overlord|Normandy]], [[Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine]], [[Western Allied invasion of Germany]]

| align="center" |Redesignated as 1 Commando Brigade, on 6 December 1944.

| align="left" |Source info here

|}

The following is the edit that is made, which has been reverted.

{| class="wikitable sortable plainrowheaders" style="text-align: left; border-spacing: 2px; border: 1px solid darkgray;"

|+List of special service brigades

! width="15%" scope="col" |Formation name

! width="5%" scope="col" |Date formed

! width="5%" scope="col" |Wartime date ceased to exist

! width="5%" scope="col" |Location(s) served

! width="10%" scope="col" |Notable campaign(s)

! class="unsortable" width="55%" scope="col" |Notes

! class="unsortable" width="5%" scope="col" |Source(s)

|-

! scope="row" align="center" |[[1st Special Service Brigade]]

| align="center" |{{dts|November 1943}}

|{{N/A}}

| align="center" |Italy, UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany

| align="center" |[[Allied invasion of Sicily]], [[Operation Overlord|Normandy]], [[Allied advance from Paris to the Rhine]], [[Western Allied invasion of Germany]]

| align="center" |Redesignated as 1 Commando Brigade, on 6 December 1944.

| align="left" |Source info here

|}

Does the template <nowiki>{{N/A}}</nowiki> conform to the MOS for a table such as this? Should it be used or not?[[User:EnigmaMcmxc|EnigmaMcmxc]] ([[User talk:EnigmaMcmxc|talk]]) 11:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

:{{re|EnigmaMcmxc}} I couldn't find any recommended styles for empty cells. Maybe someone else might find something? I found a similar unanswered question here: [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Tables#Empty cells]]. If the intention is to indicate that the data wasn't overlooked as a blank cell might suggest, then using either one seems sufficient to me. [[Template:N/a]], which displays an em dash, is used on approximately 47,000 pages, so in a way you could say it is an acceptable option. I don't know the number of "N/A" uses, but [[N/A]] indicates that it is a "common abbreviation in tables". Using one over the other seems more like a preference since to me they both indicate the same thing. Regardless of which one is used, it should match the same usage in other tables found on the same page and follow consensus.

:Just to see what other manuals of style suggest, I searched and found the Chicago Manual of Style suggested using an em dash, ellipsis, n/a, or n.d. with some rules around the latter two abbreviations (see [https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/91315/how-to-represent-no-data-cells-in-html-tables]). Note, the Chicago MoS doesn't dictate Wikipedia's MoS.

:{{tq|Section 3.65: Empty cells. If a column head does not apply to one of the entries in the stub, the cell should either be left blank or, better, filled in by an em dash or three unspaced ellipsis dots. If a distinction is needed between "not applicable" and "no data available," a blank cell may be used for the former and an em dash or ellipsis dots for "no data" ... If this distinction is not clear from the text, a note may be added to the table. (Alternatively, the abbreviations n/a and n.d. may be used, with definitions given in a note.) A zero means literally that the quantity in a cell is zero....}} [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 13:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

:As an added note, the "N/a" template uses the "data-sort-value" attribute, so sorting it versus the "N/A" text may order them differently unless the same attribute is used on the text version. [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 14:14, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

::Thank you for the in-depth response on this. I played around with the table, although it is very limited, and both seem to sort in the same manner. I guess with the widespread use of the template and outside style manuals saying that is more preferable, I think I can end the edit war with using that template.[[User:EnigmaMcmxc|EnigmaMcmxc]] ([[User talk:EnigmaMcmxc|talk]]) 17:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

== Does this violate accessibility guidelines? ==

Recently, I edited [[List of feature films with gay characters]] to change the chart from a format where all the countries are bunched together into one column, as the below example shows:

{| class="wikitable sortable" style="width: 100%"

|-

! style="width:4%;"| Year

! style="width:20%;"| Title

! style="width:13%;"| Character(s)

! style="width:13%;"| Actor

! style="width:36%;"| Notes

! style="width:9%;"| Country

! style="width:4%;" class="unsortable"| {{Abbr|Ref(s)|Reference(s)}}

|-

| 1968

| ''[[The Mercenary (film)|The Mercenary]]''

| Ricciolo (Curly)

| [[Jack Palance]]

|

| Italy, Spain, United States

| <ref name="ridjim">{{cite news|last1=Ridley |first1=Jim |title=''The Mercenary'', Locked and Loaded Two Nights Only |url=https://www.nashvillescene.com/arts_culture/i-the-mercenary-i-locked-and-loaded-two-nights-only/article_1c78df67-e4c0-533d-91a3-fa6bae0c3728.html |work=[[Nashville Scene]] |date=8 December 2012}}</ref><ref name="belnic">{{cite web|last1=Bell |first1=Nicholas |title=The Mercenary (1968) {{!}} Blu-ray Review |url=https://www.ioncinema.com/news/disc-reviews/the-mercenary-1968-the-mercenary-1968-blu-ray-review-sergio-corbucci-blu-ray-review |website=Ioncinema.com |date=7 November 2017}}</ref>

|}

I changed it to this:

{| class="wikitable sortable" style="width: 100%"

|-

! style="width:4%;"| Year

! style="width:20%;"| Title

! style="width:13%;"| Character(s)

! style="width:13%;"| Actor

! style="width:36%;"| Notes

! style="width:9%;"| Country

! style="width:4%;" class="unsortable"| {{Abbr|Ref(s)|Reference(s)}}

|-

| rowspan="3"|1968

| rowspan="3"|''[[The Mercenary (film)|The Mercenary]]''

| rowspan="3"|Ricciolo (Curly)

| rowspan="3"|[[Jack Palance]]

| rowspan="3"|

| Italy

| rowspan="3"|<ref name="ridjim" /><ref name="belnic" />

|-

| Spain

|-

| United States

|}

One user [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feature_films_with_gay_characters&type=revision&diff=1097087409&oldid=1097084298 reverted this], saying "Do not add rows just for countries. Don't muck up the list and its formatting. Don't make the table more complicated for editors to edit" while [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feature_films_with_gay_characters&type=revision&diff=1097096971&oldid=1097087409 I said] that "putting all the countries into one row makes the chart inaccessible... and I'd argue it violates [[WP:ACCESSIBILITY]]. And it doesn't add too much complexity and it can be easily followed". Instead of changing anymore of the page, I decided to post here. If this isn't the right place, then I'd be glad to post this somewhere else instead. Is the change I did in line with MOS for a table such as this? Should it be used? [[User:Historyday01|Historyday01]] ([[User talk:Historyday01|talk]]) 19:50, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

:{{re|talk:Historyday01}} Both are accessible, but the second one is more complex for the screen reader to read making it more difficult to understand, so simpler table structures are always preferred. In addition, the simpler comma delimited list better follows [[MOS:NO-TABLES]] recommendations when comparing a comma list to cells. [[User:Jroberson108|Jroberson108]] ([[User talk:Jroberson108|talk]]) 20:29, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

::Hmm. That makes sense. I will admit that I've done the second option more than the first as I believed that using the commas would mess up the "country" category. But, I'm totally ok with a simpler table anyhow, as it makes it easier to edit. [[User:Historyday01|Historyday01]] ([[User talk:Historyday01|talk]]) 21:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

{{Reflist-talk}}

== MOS:COLHEAD potential workaround? ==

Line 176 ⟶ 35:

::::{{replyto|Redjedi23}} Same, but also those sorts of tables aren't meant to be read linearly ... they're supposed to be read with table navigation commands (control+alt+arrows in NVDA's case), which works as expected. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 17:39, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:::::But in this way the header column loses its meaning, right? [[User:Redjedi23|Redjedi23]] ([[User talk:Redjedi23|talk]]) 18:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

::::::Not really. Screen reader users will just get used to having a blank cell (with information hopefully about the row spans) and things will be fine. [[User:Graham87|Graham87]] ([[User talk:Graham87|talk]]) 18:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

==Colgroups and rowgroups==

In [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial#Complex tables]] it says "To clearly define relationships and avoid accessibility issues, use <code>! scope="colgroup" colspan="2" | </code> when a column header spans two columns and <code>! scope="rowgroup" rowspan="2" | </code> when a row header spans two rows..." Can a combination of those be used when a column spans multiple rows <code>scope="rowgroup" colspan="2"</code> and when a row spans multiple columns <code>scope="colgroup" rowspan="2"</code> in complex tables? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 12:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

== Better describe the problem of missing captions for screen reader users (SRUs)? ==

Do we need to expand on the issue of missing captions? I ask because '''so many data tables do not have a caption''', suggesting that editors are unaware of the problems caused where one is missing. For example, a SRU can call up a list of tables on a page, each labelled by their caption. Where the caption is missing, the table is announced along the lines of "6 columns, 20 rows" by [[VoiceOver]]. I suspect that other software says something similar. Unless the user is a mind-reader (!), this is no good at all. What do others think? What can we do? I do not want to spend my whole editing career adding captions to existing tables! [[User:CrazyBuilder|<span style="color: #db0000">Crazy</span><span style="color: #3c78b4">Builder</span>]] [[User talk:CrazyBuilder|talk]] 20:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)