Talk:Mao Zedong/Archive 5 and Italian Americans: Difference between pages

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{{Infobox Ethnic group
{{FAOL|Indonesian|id:Mao Zedong}}
|group = Italian American
[[/Archive]]
|image =
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|poptime = '''17,237,187'''<ref name="US Census Bureau, Italian">{{cite web |url=http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IPTable?_bm=y&-reg=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201:543;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR:543;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T:543;ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR:543&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201PR&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201T&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S0201TPR&-ds_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_&-TABLE_NAMEX=&-ci_type=A&-redoLog=false&-charIterations=031&-geo_id=01000US&-format=&-_lang=en|coauthors=United States Census Bureau|title=US demographic census|accessdate=2007-04-15}}</ref>
|popplace = [[New England]], [[New Jersey]], [[New York]], [[Pennsylvania]], [[Illinois]], [[California]], [[Florida]]
|langs = [[American English]], [[Italian language|Italian]], [[Sicilian language|Sicilian]]
|rels = [[Roman Catholic]]
|related =
}}
 
[[Image:Sons of italy logo.gif|right|frame|Logo of [[Sons of Italy]], which is the largest Italian American fraternal organization in the United States.]]
An '''Italian American''' is an [[United States|American]] of [[Italy|Italian]] descent. The phrase may refer to someone born in the United States of Italian descent or to someone who has immigrated to the United States from Italy. Although Italians arrived early in the new world, large scale [[Italian diaspora|Italian]] [[immigration to the United States]] effectively began in the 1880s, and peaked from 1900 until 1914, when [[World War I]] made movement impossible. By 1978, 5.3 million Italians had immigrated to the United States; two million arrived between 1900 and 1914. About a third of these immigrants intended to stay only briefly, in order to make money and return to Italy. These immigrants were commonly referred to as "Birds of Passage." While one in four did return to Italy, the rest either decided to stay, or were prevented from returning by the war. Only [[Irish American|Irish]], [[German American|Germans]], and more recently, [[Mexican American|Mexicans]] have immigrated in equal or larger numbers.
 
In the 2000 U.S. [[Census]], Italian Americans constituted the sixth largest [[Racial demographics of the United States|ancestry group in America]] with about 15.6 million people (5.6% of the total U.S. population).<ref>[http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf Brittingham, Angela, and G. Patricia De La Cruz. Ancestry: 2000. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. Census Bureau, 2004.]</ref> [[Sicilian American]]s are a subset of numerous Americans of regional Italian ancestries, such as Sicilians came from [[Sicily]] in southern Italy.
== Is Mao Good or Bad? ==
 
In the 1930s, Italian Americans voted heavily [[Democratic Party (United States)|Democratic]]; since the 1960s, they have split about evenly between the Democratic and the [[Republican Party (United States)|Republican]] parties. The [[United States Congress|U.S. Congress]] includes Italian Americans who are regarded as leaders in both the Republican and Democratic parties. The highest ranking Italian American politician is currently [[Nancy Pelosi]] (D-CA) who became the first woman and Italian American [[Speaker of the United States House of Representatives]].
Mao isn't the best thing that happened in China. He literally ruined a generation of people's education. My parents is the very example of this. This is becuase back in China, (during Mao's leading) my parents couldn't finish their education. This has led them to work very hard and every night when they come back, they'd be really tired and they still had to cook for us. Their work hours has taken something from us, quality family time. MY parents has unsteady work hours and they work very very hard to earn money and this is thanks to Mao Zedong!!
 
==History and demographics==
~ littleaznpenguin@aol.com
Most immigration from Italy occurred between 1880 and 1960. Many Italian Americans came from Southern Italy and [[Sicily]] as rural [[peasants]] with very little education. From 1890 to 1900, 655,888 arrived in the United States, of whom two-thirds were men. The main push factor in Italian immigration was the huge economic problems in Italy. In America, Italians dominated specific neighborhoods (often called "[[Little Italy]]") where they could interact and find favorite foods. The immigrants arrived with very little cash or human capital; their manual labor was in demand. These neighborhoods were typically [[slums]] with overcrowded [[Apartment building|tenements]] and poor [[sanitation]]. [[Tuberculosis]] was rampant. In the 1890-1920 period Italian Americans were often stereotyped as being "violent" and "controlled by the [[Mafia]]". [http://www.niaf.org/research/report_zogby.asp] In the [[1920s]], many Americans used the [[Sacco and Vanzetti]] trial, in which two Italian anarchists were sentenced to death, to denounce Italian immigrants as anarchists and criminals. During the 1800s and early 20th century, Italian Americans were the one of the most likely groups to be lynched. In 1891, eleven Italian immigrants in [[New Orleans]] were [[Lynching|lynched]] due to their ethnicity and the suspicion of Italians being involved in the Mafia. This was the largest mass [[lynching in the United States|lynching]] in US history. {{Fact|date=March 2007}}
 
To this day, Italian Americans are frequently associated with [[organized crime]] in the minds of many Americans, largely due to pervasive media stereotyping and a number of popular [[Crime film|gangster movies]] (such as ''[[The Godfather]]'' and ''[[Goodfellas]]''). A Zogby International survey revealed that 78 percent of teenagers 13 to 18 associated Italian Americans with either criminal activity or blue-collar work. A survey by the Response Analysis Corp. reported that 74 percent of adult Americans believe most Italian Americans have "some connection" to [[organized crime]]. [http://www.osia.org/public/pdf/Adweek.pdf] Italian Americans still report some workplace [[discrimination]] and harassment. (see [[Anti-Italianism]])
::Mao was probably bad, but that is not an issue here. Some people probably revere him, while others loathe him. This wikipedia article should attempt to portray him from a neutral perspective. --[[User:Ezeu|Ezeu]] 01:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 
However, the [[National Italian American Foundation]], the National American Italian Association and other Italian American organizations have asserted that the [[Mafia]] in the United States never numbered more than a few thousand individuals, and that it is unfair to associate such a small-minority with the general population of Italian Americans. The [[United States Department of Justice]] estimates that less than .0025 percent of the estimated 16 to 26 million Americans of Italian descent are involved in criminal activitites. [http://www.osia.org/public/pdf/Adweek.pdf] Further, a majority of Italian Americans hold [[white collar]] jobs, including many distinguished positions in business, academia, the arts, medicine, and public service.
:::The biggest friggin mistake in history is dividing leaders between "good" and "bad". Mao could be defined as neither. He's just a person who happened to lead the country, and happend to make some mistakes. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 04:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 
According to [[United States Census, 2000|2000 Census]] data, Italian Americans have a greater high school graduation rate than the national average, and a greater than or equal rate of advanced degrees compared to the national average. Their ratio of white collar to blue collar workers (66%:34%) is also higher than the national average (64%:36%). Italian Americans have a median annual income of $61,300, which is approximately $11,000 more than the national median income. [http://www.osia.org/public/pdf/IA_Profile.pdf]
::::The fact that your parents didn't finish school doesn't mean much. Tons of people didn't finish school during Bill Clinton's presidency, and tons of people are still dropping out during Bush's presidentcy, doesn't that mean a thing? During Mao's leading, my parents and many other people's parents went to good Universities such as Tsinghua.
 
Italian Americans throughout the United States are well represented in a wide variety of occupations and professions, from skilled trades, to the arts, to engineering, science, mathematics, law, and medicine, and include numerous [[Nobel prize]] [[List of Nobel laureates|winners]]. Notable Italian Americans include scientists ([[Enrico Fermi]], [[Antonio Meucci]], [[Riccardo Giacconi]], [[Eugenio Calabi]], [[Gian-Carlo Rota]], [[Salvador Luria]], and [[Renato Dulbecco]]); jurists (including current Associate Justices of the United States Supreme Court [[Samuel Alito]] and [[Antonin Scalia]]); artists ([[Frank Stella]], [[Corrado Parducci]], [[Joseph Barbera]]); politicians ([[Rudolph Giuliani]], [[Janet Napolitano]], [[Mario Cuomo]], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian-American_politicians others]); athletes ([[Joe Dimaggio]], [[Joe Torre]], [[Rocky Marciano]], [[Yogi Berra]], [[Vince Lombardi]], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian-American_sportspeople many others]); actors and directors ([[Francis Ford Coppola]], [[Martin Scorsese]], [[Al Pacino]], [[Robert Deniro]], [[Chazz Palminteri]], among [[List of Italian American actors|many others]]); musicians ([[Frank Sinatra]], [[Tony Bennett]], [[Perry Como]], [[Jim Croce]], [[Dean Martin]], [[Frank Zappa]], [[Bruce Springsteen]] (half Italian), [[Connie Francis]] (born Concetta Franconero), [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian-American_musicians and others]); numerous [[List of Italian American Medal of Honor recipients|winners of the Medal of Honor]]; and composers ([[Bill Conti]], [[Angelo Badalamenti]], [[Henry Mancini]], [[Gian-Carlo Menotti]]).
:::::Your comparison with the US and Red China is rather spurious. In the US, people are not barred from going to university. During the Cultural Revolution, when Mao had most control over the country, university education was severely disrupted. Whether people went there or not was irrelevant - most learnt nothing because all the teachers were being pushed around by the students. The same was happening in the schools. And in any case, there were periods during "Mao's leadership" when he had little effective control. For example, in between the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, Liu Shaoqi and Deng were running the show and sensible university education was permitted. [[User:John Smith's|John Smith's]] 13:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==Italian American culture==
Mao Zedong is responsible for 20 million deaths in China, why is he not known as a dictator among the likes of Pol Pot? My ancestors died because of his policies.
 
Many Italian Americans still retain aspects of their culture. This includes Italian food, drink, art, [[Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholicism]], annual Italian American feasts and a strong commitment to extended family. Italian Americans influenced popular music in the 1940s and as recently in the 1970s, one of their major contributions to American culture. In movies that deal with cultural issues, Italian American words and lingo are sometimes spoken by the characters. Although most will not speak Italian fluently, a dialect of sorts has arisen among Italian Americans, particularly in the urban [[Northeastern United States|Northeast]], often popularized in film and television.
--[[User:Number 8|Number 8]] 05:09, 12 October 2005 (UTC)number8
 
Among the most characteristic and popular of Italian American cultural contributions has been their feasts. Throughout the United States, wherever one may find an "Italian neighborhood" (often referred to as 'Little Italy') one can find festive celebrations such as the well known San Gennaro Feast in New York City or the unique Our Lady of Mount Carmel "Giglio" Feast in Brooklyn, New York.
We cannot portray someone from a neutral point of view. I say this because the only way to write about someone is to get to know them/their past. Therefore, if we get to know that, we automatically form an opinion. For Mao Tse-tung's case, people can like a murderous piece of ****, or they hate him. No one is ''neutral'' when it comes to this. And for whether Mao is good or bad? Multiply your feelings towards Hitler 10 times and there is your answer.
 
Italian feasts involve elaborate displays of devotion to God and [[patron saint]]s. Perhaps the most widely known is St. Joseph's feast day on March 19th. These feasts are much more than simply isolated events within the year. They express a "typically Italian" approach to life and are taken very seriously by the communities who prepare them. Feast (''Festa'' in Italian) is an umbrella term for the various secular and religious, indoor and outdoor activities surrounding a religious holiday. Typically, Italian feasts consist of festive communal meals, religious services, games of chance and skill and elaborate outdoor processions consisting of statues resplendent in jewels and donations. This merriment usually takes place over the course of several days, and is communally prepared by a church community or a religious organization over the course of several months.
 
Currently, there are more than 300 Italian feasts celebrated throughout the United States. These feasts are visited each year by millions of Americans from various backgrounds who come together to enjoy Italian delicacies such as Zeppole and sausage sandwiches.
:Number 8, you are obviously not neutral here, but don't judge too quickly on others ("No one his neutral when it comes to this"). I might as well turn your point around and say that the more you know a person, the more subtle your opinion gets, because you get to see through his complexities, you get to know his virtues and faults, you realize it's just too simplistic to single-handedly qualify a person with one single word like "genius" or "lunatic". Therefore, when you really get to know someone, you automatically form an opinion that is not either love or hate.
 
==Religion==
:And while we're here: you portray Hitler neutrally if you describe his life and actions without resorting to judgements on his character, and that goes for anyone else. Describe what happened, and let people take their own conclusions. Avoid reasonings of the kind "Hitler killed Jews because he was insane". When we have a very good account of one's life, we can devote sections of an article to the judgements historically made on that person. Mixing up both is not a good idea. --koenige 14:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Most if not virtually all immigrants had been Catholics in Italy. Observers have noted that they often became more devoutly Catholic in the United States, since their faith was a distinctive characteristic in the U.S.; devout Italian Americans often identified themselves as "Catholics" when talking to coworkers or neighbors. In Italy, there are religious minorities of [[Greek Catholics]], [[Greek Orthodox]]es and [[Italian Jews]], whose religious community date back 2,000 years, also took part in the Italian immigration to America.
 
In some Italian American communities, [[Saint Joseph's Day]] ([[March 19]]) is marked by celebrations and parades. [[Columbus Day]] is also widely celebrated, as are the feasts of some regional Italian [[patron saint]]s, most notably [[San Gennaro]] ([[September 19]]) (especially by those claiming [[Naples|Neapolitan]] heritage), and [[Santa Rosalia]] ([[September 4]]) by immigrants from [[Sicily]]. The immigants from [[Potenza|Potenza, Italy]] celebrate the [[Saint Rocco|Saint Rocco's]] day feast at the Potenza Lodge in [[Denver, Colorado]]. Rocco is the patron saint of [[Potenza]]. Many still celebrate the Christmas season with a [[Feast of the seven fishes]].
 
In some communities Italian American Catholics were discriminated by Irish and German Catholic leaders and were forced to leave the church and the join the [[Episcopal Church]]. [http://www.saintanthonyhackensack.org/history.html]
--[[User:Number 8|Number 8]] 04:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 
There are some non-Catholic Italian Americans today. Some are Anglicans (Episcopalian in the USA) because of that church's similarity to the [[Roman Catholic Church]]. [[Fiorello LaGuardia]] was an Episcopalian. It should also be noted that the first group of Italian immigrants to [[Trenton, NJ|Trenton]] converted to Baptist. In the early 1900s, a number of Protestant denominations and missionaries worked in urban Italian American neighborhoods of the Northeast.
Koenige, you're right I didn't say anything about Hitler. Do I need to? No. "avoid reasonings of the kind "Hitler killed Jews because he was insane"." I think you are right in some aspects- Hitler killed Jews because that was his belief, and he did not think that what he did was wrong. However that doesn't give him an excuse to kill, so therefore, neither does Mao Tse-tung have an excuse of killing tens of millions of people. And for the record, I'm Chinese. I lived there until I was 9 years old - 1999. I was fed with facts, from Kindergarten, through primary school, that the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) and Mao Tse-tung was China's hero and China would be a whole lot worse if it was under Chiang Kai-shek. This was done from the 50's up till now. I have many friends who say Mao is good, however, they are without a reason to say so. The propoganda in China had just said Mao was good, and they were told so without good reasoning, therefore it's propoganda. I hate Mao, you are right, and the CCP, because they tried to brainwash me with all the CCP crap. The CCP also has a slogan "if you don't love the Party [CCP] you don't love your country", which is rubbish. The CCP do these things to silence the opposition, and that's why I detest them.
----
 
==Italian language in the United States==
According to the [http://www.osia.org/public/pdf/Italian_Lang_Study_2003.pdf Sons of Italy News Bureau] from 1998 to 2002, the enrollment in college [[Italian language]] courses grew by 30%, faster than the enrollment rates for French and German. Italian is the fourth most commonly taught foreign language in U.S. colleges and universities behind Spanish, French, and German. According to the U.S. 2000 Census, Italian is the fifth (seventh overall) most spoken language in the United States (tied with Vietnamese) with over 1 million speakers.<ref>[http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-29.pdf Language Use and English-Speaking Ability: 2000]</ref>
 
As a result of the large wave of [[Italy|Italian]] immigration to the [[United States of America]] in the late 19th century and early 20th centuries, the [[Italian language]] was once widely spoken in much of the U.S., especially in northeastern and Great Lakes area cities, as well as, [[San Francisco]] and [[New Orleans]]. Italian-language newspapers exist in many American cities, especially [[New York City]], and Italian-language movie theatres existed in the U.S. as late as the 1950s.
Well koenige, I will be very interested to hear your response to that! I totally agree with Number 8, the facts remain that dictators like Mao and Hitler murdered masses of people. You either condemn that and call it what it was or you don't. You don't try and wash it away by pretending to be some kind of academic intellectual exhorting people to be "neutral" It's a total cop-out. [[User:The Great Veritas|The Great Veritas]] 11:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 
[[Image:Enemyslanguage.jpg|thumb|right|This sign appeared in post offices and in government buildings during World War II. The sign designates Japanese, German, and Italian, the languages of the Axis powers, as enemy languages.]]
:Number 8, I respect your feelings. The thing is, this is an encyclopedia, i.e. not a place for our personal opinions, but for opinions based on historical/scientific research. Naturally, these also vary, so we should present them in a balanced manner so as to give a good account of where the debates are standing. Neutrality here is a bit like the mathematical concept of limit: you never actually reach it, but you can always get closer to it. Is it easier though to recognize what is definitely ''not'' neutral, like calling Mao a murderous piece of shit and the like.
 
Author Lawrence Distasi argues that the loss of spoken Italian among the Italian American population can be tied to U.S. government pressures during [[World War II]]. During World War II, in various parts of the country, the U.S. government displayed signs that read, ''Don't Speak the Enemy's Language.'' Such signs designated the languages of the [[Axis powers]], German, Japanese, and Italian, as "enemy languages". Shortly after the U.S. declared war on the Axis powers, many Italian, Japanese and German citizens were interned. Among the Italian Americans, those who spoke Italian, who had never taken out citizenship papers, and who belonged to groups that praised [[Benito Mussolini]], were most likely to become candidates for internment. Distasi claims that many Italian language schools closed down in the [[San Francisco Bay Area]] within a week of the U.S. declaration of war on the Axis powers. Such closures were inevitable since most of the teachers in Italian languages were interned.
:Maybe I didn't make my point clear previously: what I strongly believe we should avoid is statements of the kind "Hitler was a lunatic", "Mao was criminally insane" (which you, Veritas, wanted to include in the article some days ago). What is a lunatic? What is criminally insane? Either we have a reliable psychiatric account, or that's just personal unresearched opinions and there are other places for them.
 
Despite the pressures of the US government during World War II, now more than ever, children of Italian heritage, especially paternal heritage, are given Italian names, and raised in traditional Italian ways. The Italian language is still spoken and studied by those of Italian American descent, and it can be heard in various American communities, especially among older Italian Americans. During the late 20th and early 21st centuries, interest in Italian language and culture has surged among Italian Americans. Today's Italian American youth no longer take for granted the impressive contributions Italians and Italian Americans have made to [[Western civilization]], especially in the areas of fine art, music, science, philosophy, law, medicine, education, literature, architecture, and cuisine.
:Mind you this doesn't mean at all I admire these individuals, quite to the contrary. But I believe the only way we might be able to avoid the reappearance of phenomenons such as Hitler is if we actually ''understand'' them, and understanding means systematic doubt and employing reason, not moral judgement. As for Mao, I don't hold the holy truth, I have many doubts on the overall assessment of him. It just baffles me that so many people know it all so much better -- he was a murderer, a bloodthirsty butcher and that's it! -- without giving much of a reasonable argument for it. Jung Chang at least tried, but looks like her efforts were also flawed -- as Frank McLynn [http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article224522.ece states in the Independent], a sustained polemic does not make a good biography.
 
There is, however, a dilemma for Italian Americans who consider re-learning the language of their ancestors. The formal "Italian" that is taught in colleges and universities is generally not the "Italian" with which Italian Americans are acquainted. Eighty percent of Italian Americans are of Southern Italian origin; therefore, the languages spoken by their families who arrived between 1880-1920 were most likely variations of the [[Neapolitan language|Neapolitan]] and [[Sicilian language|Sicilian]] dialects with perhaps some degree of influence from [[Italian language|Standard Italian]]. Because the Italian of Italian Americans comes from a time just after the unification of the state, their language is in many ways anachronistic and demonstrates what the dialects of [[Southern Italy]] used to be at the time. Because of this, Italian Americans studying Italian are often learning a language that does not include all of the words and phrases they know, and which their ancestors would not have recognized well.
:I have wasted a lot of time here better spent improving wikipedia elsewhere. Let's just move forward if we have nothing new to say. -- koenige 16:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 
The situation is even more pronounced among Italian Americans whose ancestors came to the [[United States]] from [[Northern Italy]]. Italian Americans variously of [[Emilia-Romagna|Emilia-Romagnan]], [[Lombardy|Lombardian]], [[Liguria|Genoese]], [[Marche|Marchese]], [[Piemonte|Piedmontese]], [[Veneto|Venetian]], and other Northern Italian heritage are even further removed, linguistically, from the languages of their ancestors through the [[Italian language|contemporary standard Italian language]].
 
==Italian American internment during World War II==
(see [[Italian American internment]]}
 
The internment of Italian Americans during World War II has often been overshadowed by the [[Japanese American]] internment. But recently, books such as Una Storia Segreta (ISBN 1-890771-40-6) by Lawrence DiStasi and Uncivil Liberties (ISBN 1-58112-754-5) by Stephen Fox have been published, and movies, such as [http://www.prisonersamongus.com Prisoners Among Us]have been made. These books and movies reveal that during World War II, roughly 600,000 Italians were required to carry identity cards that labelled them as "resident aliens." Some 10,000 people in war zones on the West Coast were required to move inland. Hundreds of others were held in military camps for up to two years. Lawrence DiStasi claims that these wartime restrictions and internments contributed more than anything else to the loss of spoken Italian in the United States. After Italy declared war on the U.S., many Italian language papers and schools were closed almost overnight because of their past support for an enemy government.
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I'm sorry koenige, but I just think that you perhaps should do the research yourself before commenting on Jung Chang's book, because I don't think it's flawed and biased, I just think she may have sometimes wrote things from a negative point of view when it's not necessary.
 
==Italian American involvement during World War II==
And I think that if Jung Chang listed at least a dozen, at least a dozen of people who was killed in cold blood by Mao - isn't this enough for "evidence"?
During World War II, many Italian Americans joined and were drafted into the army to fight the Axis powers. An estimated 1.2 million Italian American men served in the armed forces during World War II; this was 7.5% of the 16 million total who served.
 
Italian involvement was also pivotal in the invasion of Sicily where United States government troops worked with locals (possibly including underworld bosses) in order to secure and fortify the newly acquired foothold in Europe. In fact, numerous documentaries and texts have documented the delicate relations the United States government had at that time with organized crime within the United States and how the United States government used their relations to ensure a safe landing in Sicily. It is rumored that even [[Lucky Luciano]] helped smooth relations between the two communities during World War II.
:It is very dangerous to simply rely on others for your information. Unless you read the book and approach it with an academic attitude, you can't even begin to form a proper opinion of it - you're just reading the opinions of other people and letting them sway you. In any case it appears you've already made up your mind for the simple fact you quote only the Independent. [[User:John Smith's|John Smith's]] 12:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==Italian American communities==
{{Main|List of Italian-American Neighborhoods}}
 
Areas known for their high concentrations of Italian Americans include [[New York]], [[New Jersey]], [[Pennsylvania]], [[Rhode Island]], [[Connecticut]], [[Massachusetts]], [[Maryland]], [[Illinois]], [[California]], [[Ohio]], [[Indiana]], and [[Florida]]. In cities across the country, [[Boston]], [[Chicago]], [[Miami]], [[New York City]], and [[Philadelphia]] have large Italian communities.
I am from China and I can't believe how Mao is portrayed here!!! Maybe its the communist propaganda they fed me with when I was a child, but Mao to me is the equivilate of Washington or Lincoln to you. I can't believe the west thinks of him as a ruthless dictaor, warlord, sociopath! He is(yes is and not was, as long as his spirit lives he lives), He is a selfless, altruistic, idealist who wanted nothing more than to help the people. So what if on top of that he was a great military leader? He had a vision of an utopia and of a free China. Free from the oppressive and corrupt Kuomintang, the chaos of the warlords, and the control of the west. He saw communism as a way to achieve both a free China and an utopia. The only deaths he caused were in the Chinese civil war and the war againist the Japanese invasion. He cannot be held responsible for the deaths caused by famines. Nor can he be held responsible for the deaths/mass murders caused by angry mobs of peasants and youth after the civil war and the cultural revolution. All of which he had no control over!!!But yet they count that as people he "murdered". Gee, why don't we just count all the people who died of old age and sickness at the time as people he murdered too? In the end he was sick, his wife and the Gang of Four took over control; again, the people they killed and the actions they took he had no control over. Its probably just/mostly western bias propaganda againist communism at the time. Mao is a great man with great intentions, who unintentionally and at most indirectly caused deaths that he didn't know about and had no control over. Under the law the most you can charge him with is negligent manslaughter. [[Norman Bethune]] 24-Nov-05
 
==State totals==
:Interested to see that the above comment was apparently written by someone who died in 1939!
[[Image:Italian1346.gif|thumb|right|300px|[[Maps of American ancestries|Distribution]] of Italian Americans according to the [[United States Census, 2000|2000 census]]]]
:Whatever propoganda you've been subjected to, it's pretty clear to me that the comment above is a bit of a whitewash. First off, Mao was very much ''directly'' responsible for The Great Leap Forward, where he declared he wanted to see back-street furnaces all over China, leading the people to neglect their jobs to tend these furnaces, which was a patently crazy way to attempt to catch up in steel production, and lead to food shortages and even famine. He even accepted himself that this was a mistake.
===Number of Italian Americans===
:He said "let a hundred flowers bloom", but didn't publicise his follow-on statement about "drawing the snake from his lare", ie. let everyone criticise the party, and when they do, send them off to labour camps for "re-education".
1. [[New York]] 30,254,298<br>
:He encouraged the Red Guards or "angry mobs of peasants and youth", with his statements "To Rebel is Good", and "Bombard the Headquarters", and "Be Violent"
2. [[New Jersey]] 1,590,225<br>
:He encouraged the closing of schools and universities during the Cultural Revolution, and declared exams to be "bourgois" - no other communist in history (apart from Pol Pot) retarded education in this way.
3. [[Pennsylvania]] 1,547,470<br>
4. [[California]] 1,149,351<br>
5. [[Florida]] 1,147,946<br>
6. [[Massachusetts]] 918,838<br>
7. [[Illinois]] 739,284<br>
8. [[Ohio]] 720,847<br>
9. [[Connecticut]] 652,016<br>
10. [[Michigan]] 484,486<br>
 
===Percentage of Italian Americans===
1. [[Rhode Island]] 19.7%<br>
2. [[Connecticut]] 18.6%<br>
3. [[New Jersey]] 16.8%<br>
4. [[New York]] 16.4%<br>
5. [[Massachusetts]] 14.5%<br>
6. [[Pennsylvania]] 13%
[http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/Profiles/Single/2003/ACS/index.htm]
 
==See also==
Small point: "his wife and the gang of four" - that would make five - his wife was ''one'' of the gang of four.
{{Demographics of the United States}}
*[[List of Italian Americans]]
*[[Italy USA Foundation]]
 
==Notes==
[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|20px]][[User:Camillus McElhinney|<span style="color:#006666; background-color:orange">''Camillus''</span>]][[Image:Flag of Scotland.svg|20px]]<sup><font color="green">[[User talk:Camillus McElhinney|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Camillus_McElhinney|contribs]]</font></sup> 01:10, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
==References==
* Baily, Samuel L. ''Immigrants in the Lands of Promise : Italians in Buenos Aires and New York City, 1870-1914'' (1999) Online in ACLA History E-book Project
* [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=26365447 Bona, Mary Jo. ''Claiming a Tradition: Italian American Women Writers'' (1999)]
* Diggins, John P. ''Mussolini and Fascism: The View from America'' (1972)
* D'Agostino, Peter R. ''Rome in America: Transnational Catholic Ideology from the Risorgimento to Fascism'' (2004).
* Gans, Herbert J. ''Urban Villagers'' (1982)
* [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=104280928 Guglielmo, Thomas A. ''White on Arrival: Italians, Race, Color, and Power in Chicago, 1890-1945'' (2003)]
* [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=9287553 Gardaphe, Fred L. ''Italian Signs, American Streets: The Evolution of Italian American Narrative'' (1996)]
* Giordano, Paolo A. and Anthony Julian Tamburri, eds. ''Beyond the Margin: Essays on Italian Americana'' (1998).
* [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=59087669 Hobbie, Margaret. ''Italian American Material Culture: A Directory of Collections, Sites, and Festivals in the United States and Canada'' (1992)]
* Juliani, Richard N. ''The Social Organization of Immigration: The Italians in Philadelphia'' (1980)[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0405134304/ref=nosim/bookfindercom0e]
* Juliani, Richard N. ''Building Little Italy: Philadelphia's Italians before Mass Migration'' (1998)[http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-01731-7.html]
* Juliani, Richard N. ''Priest, Parish, and People: Saving the Faith in Philadelphia's Little Italy'' (2007) [http://www3.undpress.nd.edu/exec/dispatch.php?s=title,P01107]
* [http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=103874809 Lagumina, Salvatore J. et al eds. ''The Italian American Experience: An Encyclopedia'' (2000)]
* Stefano Luconi. ''The Italian-American Vote in Providence, R.I., 1916-1948'' 2005
* Nelli, Humbert S. ''The Business of Crime: Italians and Syndicate Crime in the United States'' (1981)
* Nelli, Humbert S. ''Italians in Chicago, 1880-1930: A Study in Ethnic Mobility'' (2005).
* Prendergast, William B. ''The Catholic Voter in American Politics: The Passing of the Democratic Monolith'' (1999)
* Sterba, Christopher M. ''Good Americans: Italian and Jewish Immigrants During the First World'' (2003)
* Tamburri, Anthony Julian. ''A Semiotic of Ethnicity: In (Re)cognition of the Italian/American Writer'' (1998).
* Tamburri, Anthony Julian, Paolo A. Giordano, Fred L. Gardaphé, eds. ''From the Margin: Writings in Italian Americana'' (2000, 2nd ed.)
* Whyte, William Foote. ''Street Corner Society: The Social Structure of an Italian Slum'' (1993).
* {{CathEncy|url=http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Italians_in_the_United_States|title=Italians in the United States}}
 
----
:I think that Norman lives under a bridge. [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|<sup>1</sup>]] 01:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Well, Mao did make tops on somebody's list. See [[Democide#Significant_20th_century_democides|Democide]]. [[User:LuiKhuntek|LuiKhuntek]] 06:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Mao is still revered by many in China. I tried every morning for 4 days to go see him lying in state and the lines literally went around the building by 7am every morning and this is a big building roughly the size of a pro basketball auditorium. Busload after busload of Chinese from all over the country would come and stand in line for hours to view his body. A pilgramage such as this cannot be cheap for a rural Chinese family to make. At the same time, there are many many people, particulary in Beijing that either lost family during the Cultural Revolution or were Red Gaurd themselves and therefore dropped out of school on Mao's instructions (after beating their teachers no doubt) that feel differently. These people now despise Mao as they have no education and are not included in the economic boom. Most it would appear have become taxi drivers. Mao was able to rewrite much of history as the victor is often able to do. But he was also able to propagate much of the myth OUTSIDE of China thanks to journalist Edgar Snow. For an alternative (and seemingly well researched) version of Mao's ascension, read Mao The Untold Story. It is an eye opener as, according to it, Mao the Myth is completely different from Mao in reality. Mao was not competent, not charismatic, not loyal, and completely lacking in integrity. But he was ambitious, ruthless, greedy, lucky, and cunning in spades. This book should be required reading for any MBA program.
 
== Marxist Theory ==
 
This seems to be developing into a very nice article. However, I would find it very helpful if there were a section on Mao Zedong's Marxist theory. He's listed as a Marxist theorist in the Marxism section (that's how I got here), yet there's no section on his contributions, differences, etc. I'm putting this here because it doesn't really fit in any of the subsections.
--[[User:JECompton|JECompton]] 22:57, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:Uh... try [[Maoism]]. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 05:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 
It says here:
*"Mao also built on the theories of Hegel and Marx to create a new theory of materialist dialectics. By applying the theory of the dialectic to real-world conflicts, then by asserting that only the empirical reality of the conflict mattered, Mao developed a type of dialectic theory that was studied for decades."
 
Maybe the article Maoism is the place, but even as a summary, this is a bit strange to me. Like, what was the difference between "materialist dialetics" that Mao is here credited with, and "dialectical materialism" that is another word for Marxism (along with "historical materialism"). Was Mao's great achievement that he turned the phrase around? Wow!
 
[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|20px]][[User:Camillus McElhinney|<span style="color:#006666; background-color:orange">''Camillus''</span>]][[Image:Flag of Scotland.svg|20px]]<sup><font color="green">[[User talk:Camillus McElhinney|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Camillus_McElhinney|contribs]]</font></sup> 00:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== New book ==
 
I was reading [[MacLeans]] today, there's apparently a new book out that Mao killed more people than Hitler or Stalin. Anyone read this book yet? Is it a bunch of opinionated BS or actually valuable? [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 05:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== He Killed 70 million people ==
 
Some sources say 80 million. Even if you choose to minimize or discount this estimate, he ADMITTED to murdering 800,000 people after he gained power. Hitler improved Germany's economy, should he be held to some cultist high standard (he is, of course, by modern Nazis, but they are correctly reviled as fringe weirdos)?
 
:Wanna go back, check your sources, and come back with less opinion and more tangible evidence? [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 17:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 
::Well, the Chinese Communist Party that still keeps Mao pickled in a mausoleum and his photo high above Tian'anmen Sq and that declared Mao to be 70% correct puts the figure at about 30 million and you figure they'd be a little on the conservative side with their estimate. [[User:LuiKhuntek|LuiKhuntek]] 06:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:::Your way of thinking is from a very western perspective. Dictators are not evaluated by how many people they killed. Dictators can't be "good" or "bad". Mao succeeded in a revolution. He had some bad policies in his late years. I'm no fan of those policies myself, but you have to look at the whole picture. And Mao is more of a symbol than a man to the CPC and many people, that's why he's in a Mausoleum. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 22:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== Deaths ==
What source says 80 million? [[Mao: The Unknown Story]] says 70 million, but fails to explain it. Higher death-rates in the [[Three Years of Natural Disasters]] are treated as equivalent to intentional killings, though only for leaders who are disapproved of.
 
The 800,000 'murdered' refers to various landlords and pro-landlord bandits killed by mass meetings of peasants after the Chinese Communists chased out the [[Kuomintang]] and declared that landlord power must end. it was done by the people they had ruled over, not by any party death=list. Plently of landlords survived, with reduced status. Most of those killed were killed for specific acts of murder that they were blaimed for. Some also for having worked with the Japanese during the invasion.
 
--[[User:GwydionM|GwydionM]] 19:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== Terrible, just terrible ==
 
"Mao's legacy has produced a large amount of controversy. Most mainland Chinese believe that Mao Zedong was a great revolutionary leader, although he made serious mistakes in his later life. "
 
Got any independent polls of the Chinese people to back this up? Or are you actually just referring to the offical statements of the Chinese government?
[[User:Warm beer|Warm beer]] 13:24, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:I changed that to "some mainland Chinese" a few days ago - I think you must be thinking of an old version of something. [[User:John Smith's|John Smith&#39;s]] 16:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Mao succeeded where many others had failed ==
 
In the century before Mao took over, China was the ‘sick man of East Asia’. Unlike India, Vietnam etc. it was not modernised as part of a colonial empire. Unlike Japan, it failed to modernise within its own traditional framework. China fell into even worse chaos when it tried to imitate the West with the Republic of 1911. It needed Mao’s ruthless determination and radicalism to ‘turn it round’. Though the West now sneers at his memory, he left behind a strong unified state, a healthy well-educated population and a flourishing economy.
 
Chiang’s 22 years of power left China as badly off as he found it; China’s net economic growth during his time on the mainland was zero. (''The World Economy: Historical Statistics''). Success in Taiwan after 1949 means little: Taiwan had been part of Japan’s brutal but successful modernisation. Taiwan had vast sums of US aid pumped into it, along with a land-reform that was undoubtedly helped by the example of what was happening to landlords in the rest of China. A blue-arsed baboon could have made a success of Taiwan.
 
Starting from a very low base, Mao more than tripled China’s economy during his period of rule. (''The World Economy: Historical Statistics''). He did this while also uprooting ancient systems of oppression and asserting China’s status as a Great Power. And he did it without much outside help—some Russian help in the 1950s, but at a price. In most other cases during the Soviet Union’s existence, the recipient of aid eventually had to choose between throwing them out or else becoming subordinate to Moscow. Mao chose to throw them out—strictly, they were pulled out, but it was the foreseeable consequence of not accepting Moscow’s demands. But unlike other leaders who threw out the Soviet Union, Mao did not then become subordinate to the USA. Which explains why he gets condemned, while pro-Western capitulators get praised far above their achievements for their own people
 
[[Mao: The Unknown Story]] claims 38 million famine deaths, to which Chang & Halliday add 32 more unspecified deaths to make up their much-publicised 70 million. Yet at the time, observers agreed that there was no famine in China, though there was certainly hunger. They also agreed that the weather was abnormally bad.
 
“The increasing preoccupation with the weather, which began when vast areas in north and northeast China suffered a lack of snowfall and spring rain, grew steadily with the constant threat of floods throughout the southern provinces and a persistent plague of locusts in the region along the yellow river… The deluge in June (which brought 30 in. of rain to Hong Kong in five days) moved northward, flooding the countryside as it moved, so that the greater part of the country south of the Yangtze was seriously affected.” (''Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the year 1960'').
 
This can now be recognised as the backwash of the [[El Nino]] event of 1957-58, the first to hit China since the 1920s. This happened while Chinese agriculture was being massively re-organised—a process that in the longer term succeeded. But after several years of genuine success, local officials started lying when the weather turned against them. Mao let himself be misled; and when [[Peng Dehuai]] complained to him on the matter, Mao took this as part of an overall challenge that also aimed at professionalizing the army and remaining subservient to Moscow. Mao wasn’t alone in this suspicion: see for instance [[Han Suyin]]'s ''Eldest Son'', her biography of [[Zhou Enlai]]. Among the Chinese leadership there was general agreement that [[Lin Biao]] should replaced Peng as Defence Minister, even while Mao transferred some of his powers to Liu Shao-chi.
 
Official Chinese figures show the death-rate rising to 25.5 per thousand in 1961, having been brought down as low as 10 or 11 per thousand in the first years of Communist rule. This compares with a norm of 21 per thousand under Chiang Kai-shek, and a norm of 24.6 in the Republic of India for the same period. At the start of the 20th century, India had had a death-rate as high as 48 per thousand ([http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-5997.html]).
 
Chang & Halliday claim 38 million excess deaths, but on a very vague basis, comparing a norm of 10.8 per thousand to an alleged high of 43.4 per thousand. They seem to be taking their norm from the official figures but their high from alternative ‘reconstructed’ figures. The whole calculation lurks in a footnote to pages 456-457, with no indication of the complexities and no details of sources.
 
If one accepted their rather odd figures but took 20 per thousand as a normal death-rate for a poor country, then there were 7 million less deaths in 1957-62 than the Third-world norm.
 
An assessment of famine and disaster should anyway look at deaths per thousand, allowing a sensible comparison between big and small countries. The alleged 38 million deaths in a population of 650 million would be 59 per thousand, a middling sort of disaster. The Encarta reckons that the Irish Potato Famine killed 1 million out of 8 million, 125 per thousand, with as many again forced to emigrate.
 
China under Mao developed atomic weapons and launched its own satellites. [[Deng Xiaoping]] knew that he was building on a base created by Mao, even though he wanted to change a lot that Mao had done. Post-Deng, the leaders keep the same view.
 
Mao's China and the [[Republic of India]] under [[Nehru]] have been two of the big [[Third-World]] success stories, along with the East Asian 'Tigers', most of which build on a basis created by the obnoxious but efficient system of [[Imperial Japan]]. Several different methods are able to succeed, but all of them involve a degree of authoritarian rule and ideological control. Significantly, you find the same in [[Singapore]], the other big success. A single party has successfully dominated politics in Singapore and Singapore has succeeded. Whereas those Third World countries that followed Western advice remain poor.
 
--[[User:GwydionM|GwydionM]] 19:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:I very much believe that part of that previous excerpt should be part of the Mao article. I was very surprised this came from a person in the west. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 05:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==See also==
::A Nony Mouse:<br>
* Fox, Stephen, ''The unknown internment: an oral history of the relocation of Italian Americans during World War II'', (Boston: Twayne Publishers, 1990). ISBN 0-8057-9108-6.
::Ha ha Quite funny....rationalizing a dictator. The best day for China will be when they rid Mao out of Tianmen Square. They must come to terms with their own past. Not that I am too knowledgable of Japanese politics....it is quite ironic China (rightfully) wants Japan to apologize for war atrocities when they will not apologize for their own. I can understand people hating Mao....but the gross reverence is out of "not losing face." Can you imagine? The government is passive agressive. A friend at HP agrees that sometimes there are freer markets in China than the US. We are giving Mao a spiritual kick in the ass....and China knows it because they do it too. {{ MMRivera|06:36, 30 December 2005}}
 
==Useful links for Italians in USA==
::First, I'm gonna suggest you read a bit into Chinese history to make any educated judgments. Second, you've seen everything from a purely western and economic point of view, and obviously have very little understanding of Chinese (and on a broader scale) and Asian politics. Regardless, it's useless for me to tell you all this, as you haven't lived through the Mao era in China yourself. I don't know, but for a person that has, I think I'm entitled to defend GwydionM's position.
*{{en icon}} [http://www.esteri.it/eng/index.asp Ministry for Foreign Affairs]
*{{it icon}} [http://www.esteri.it/doc/voto.pdf How to vote Abroad]
*{{it icon}} [http://www.esteri.it/doc/FAQ_voto.pdf How to vote Abroad FAQs]
*{{it icon}} [http://www.americaoggi.info America Oggi, an Italian-language daily published in the US]
 
==External links==
::There are a few areas, however, that need clarification. Mao was a great philosopher, and exceeded in this area compared to his contemporaries. The biggest mistake Mao had made, in my opinion, was in his struggle to implement policies based purely on ideological procedure. We saw such an example in the Hundred Flowers Movement, the Great Leap Forward, and even the Cultural Revolution. Most of which ended in disaster, and it would be unfair to say that China's development wasn't cut short 30 or so years because of it. The point that needs to be stressed however, is that throughout Chinese history, unity had been an area that met the most failure. Mao had succeeded here, more than anywhere else, both ideologically and in practice. It is upon this basis that Deng Xiaoping implemented his economic reforms.
*{{en icon}} [http://www.rametta-apparel.com/ Italian American T-shirt Store]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.h-net.org/~itam/ H-ItAm daily discussion email group moderated by scholars]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.niaf.org/ National Italian American Foundation]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.noiaw.org/ National Organization of Italian American Women]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.sonsofitaly.com/ Sons of Italy in America]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.ItalianAmericanShowcase.com/ ItalianAmericanShowcase.com]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.feastofthesevenfishes.com/ Feast of the Seven Fishes: Italian American Christmas Eve Tradition]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.italianrap.com/italam/masterfr.html Towards a New Italian American Identity]
*{{it icon}}{{en icon}} [http://www.lideamagazine.com/ L'IDEA MAGAZINE]A Magazine for the Italians in USA
*{{en icon}} [http://www.ItalianAmericanTalk.com ItalianAmericanTalk.com]
*{{it icon}}{{en icon}} [http://www.italiausa.org/ Fondazione Italia USA]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.italianamericanpress.com The Italian American Press]
*{{en icon}} [http://www.virtualitalia.com/ Virtualitalia]
{{European Americans}}
 
[[Category:Ethnic groups in the United States]]
::[[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|T]]) 20:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Italian-Americans| ]]
[[Category:Italian American history| ]]
[[Category:Italian diaspora|American]]
 
[[de:Italo-Amerikaner]]
:::Anyone can achieve unity through a mixture of fear and propagandist brainwashing. Hitler, Stalin, all those monsters can be said to have "unified" their countries in the same way - blame someone else for everything that goes wrong and unite the country in suspicion of everyone else.
[[fr:Italo-Américain]]
:::Mao's backers always fail to recognise that he was not some superman that controlled the Party's every action. It's arguable that for most of the time he was just a propaganda piece to make it look good. So a lot of the CCP's "achievements" had little or nothing to do with him. What about the hard work of Liu Shaoqi and Deng? They worked at least as hard as Mao did and didn't rip the country up in the process. But when Mao got directly involved in anything (e.g. GLF, C.R.) he screwed things up royally.
[[it:Italoamericani]]
:::He also had a tendancy to make his opponents conveniently "disappear". I remember someone trying to argue that he had no idea Liu had been thrown in jail. Where did he think he'd gone? On holiday?? A leading member of the Party "disappears" and he can't be bothered to work out what's happened? If that was the case, it proves that Mao really didn't give a monkeys about anyone other than himself.
[[ja:イタリア系アメリカ人]]
:::Finally the KMT arguably united the country long before Mao did - the situation was far worse for them when they started off than it was for Mao. He had a cushy ride in comparison. [[User:John Smith's|John Smith&#39;s]] 21:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
[[pt:Imigração italiana nos Estados Unidos]]
[[simple:Italian American]]