Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/March 2007: Difference between revisions
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{{Archive}}
[[Category:WikiProject Stub sorting archives
This is an archive of discussions from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals]] for the month of March 2007. Please move completed March discussions to this page as they occur, add discussion headers to each proposal showing the result, and leave incomplete discussions on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals|Proposals]] page. After March, the remainder of the discussions will be moved to this page, whether stub types have been created or not.
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* Just did a hand count and found 67 people under {{cl|Cyprus stubs}}. Support bio stub with an upmerged footy-bio.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 21:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*Sounds feasible, but be warned - Cyprus is a minefield of editwars. I'd recommend having no icon for it (if you have a map, there are complaints from Greek Cypriots; if you have a flag, there are complaints from Turkish Cypriots. If you have a person, well it will almost certainly depend on their ancestry as to whether there are complaints and where from. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
**Is it possible to make stubs for Northern Cypriots as well? This could please both sides and you could use different flags for each so that neither side is shown any real sovereignty over the island much like the Israel and Palestine stubs. [[User:NYC2TLV|NYC2TLV]] 16:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***Given [[Shilo (town)|current usage]] of {{tl|Israel-geo-stub}}, and [[Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2006/October/16#.7B.7BPalestine-stub.7D.7Ds|past "discussions"]] about {{tl|Palestine-stub}}, that's not what I'd call an encouraging comparison. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***I would suggest that we stick with one Cyprus-stub as we have done with Korea. Besides, I am not sure that a TRNC-stub would even meet the minimum levels.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***Palestine is a special case in that it is recognised by a fairly large number of countries. It doesn't really bear much comparison with the situation in Cyprus from that viewpoint. WP:WSS has a fairly consistent record of deliberately avoiding stub types for places such as TRNC due to their lack of recognition and the potential for NPOV problems (which is why there aren't stub types for places which are probably more readily comparable such as Chechnya, Kurdistan, Ossetia, and Somaliland. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
****Provided we can avoid WWIII breaking out, I'll support a -bio (covering Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Latins, and Spaghetti Monsters) but {{tl|Somaliland-stub}} was a bad idea and TRNC- will be worse. Iff we get a -bio template, people will try to add an image anyway, so I'd suggest we give it a neutral one from the start, like say, [[Zeno of Citium|Zeno of Kition]]. Normally, I wouldn't be in doubt as to an upmerged -footy template, but there is the image issue as these templates normally use both a football and a flag. Iff we make one of these, just sticking with the football would probably be the best course. Btw, if / when we have enough material, the category names should be {{cl|Cypriot people stubs}} and {{cl|Cypriot football biography stubs}} [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 12:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*****I don't know. Cyprus is recognized by UEFA and FIFA so taking the flag out of the image sounds a little silly. Arguments can be made that since the TRNC is not FIFA recognized that they can't be added. I mean every thing else related to UEFA competitions uses the Cypriot flag, why can't the players? [[User:NYC2TLV|NYC2TLV]] 14:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
******You're right that UEFA, FIFA, and everybody else except Turkey and the [[Organization of the Islamic Conference|OIC]] only recognize the Rep. of Cyprus. I don't love the situation I proposed above, believe me, I just don't like edit wars. Do we have any material at all about Turkish-Cypriot footballers? In other words; how big is the actual problem? There's got to be football clubs in North Nicosia, Famagusta and Kyrenia, but of course, if the players can't play in any major tournament, their notability might be a bit thin. [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 16:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
****** As I wrote earlier, a hand count revealed around 67 bio stubs in Cyprus-stub. I suggest we use the official flag of the Republic of Cyprus (the vast majority of TC's want to be united, anyway) and include both the TRNC and the RC under it, as well as the diaspora (where I am guessing most notable TRNC soccer players are)--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
******I ''very strongly'' advise that the flag not be used. You might want to have a read of [[Template talk:Cyprus-stub]], to start with, and I can point to a quite a number of other talk pages where that particular battle raged. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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*In theory this is definitely a good plan; I can't confirm whether it'll hit the threshold of 60, but it seems fairly likely (there is (or was) 13 UK-school stubs in the T&W cat, and it's diminishing returns from there, but undercatting is obviously at work). I'd suggest upmerged templates from {{tl|Durham-school-stub}}, {{tl|TyneandWear-school-stub}}, {{tl|Northumberland-school-stub}}, etc, since those are how the permcats are organised, and more meaningful divisions than the regions in many respects. (Upmerged to the parent if the proposed category doesn't pass threshold, to the NE cat if it does.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*Yes to the category and upmerged templates, but I'm not that sure that we need an actual {{tl|NE-England-school-stub}} (lower case "s", please!) though - we could just use the individual upmerged county templates. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*:Yep. Sounds good. However, other stubs follow the format of regions like {{tl|Yorkshire-school-stub}}. [[User:Computerjoe|Computerjoe]][[User talk:Computerjoe|<span style="color:red">'s talk</span>]] 20:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*::What the other regions do as a rule is to "templatise" by (ceremonial) county, upmerged to the regional cat. (I'd tend to agree with Grutness that regional templates are largely redundant, since it's fairly tricky for a school to be in two counties at once.) [[Yorkshire]] isn't a modern ceremonial county, granted, by it does correspond to a permcat ({{cl|schools in Yorkshire}}), and conveniently avoids having to use templates like {{tl|NorthYorkshire-school-stub}}, {{tl|WestYorkshire-school-stub}} {{tl|SouthYorkshire-school-stub}} {{tl|EastRidingofYorkshire-school-stub}}. But it's ''not'' synonymous with the region (which also includes North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire), so I don't see it as a precedent for having a regional template instead of county ones (and not much of a case for having it as well). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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Apologies in advance for the haziness of this proposal - I'm bringing it here for debate in the hopes that someone here can come up with something more solid.
I notice a lot of stubs which are both geology and geography - specifically, stubs for specific geological sites, such as [[Victoria Island structure]]. At the moment, a lot of them are double-stubbed with X-geo-stub and geology-stub, but I'm wondering whether a specific {{tl|geology-site-stub}} might be better than the geology-one for the latter. That way, if there are enough of them, they could later be split on a by-continent or by-country basis. I have not done a count up of these, but I'd be very surprised if there aren't several dozen, at least. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*Doesn't immediately look like a permcat-follower, unless it can be mapped onto {{cl|geomorphology}} in some manner. For which I think we've already discussed a stub type... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
**There's {{cl|Regional geology}} and all its "..by country" subtypes. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
***OK, that works for me. Ideally we'd echo that language in the stubcat name, at least (the template I'm fairly easy on). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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{{tl|Jakarta-geo-stub}} plus cat. would take 125 articles with it out of this growing category which is nearing 800. Other counts available on request by province, island, etc. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 16:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:While not exactly official regions, how would a split of Indonesia into Sumatra, Java, Lesser Sunda, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Moluccas, and Irian Barat work out stub wise? (leaving aside for the moment the thorny political issue of what exactly to call Western New Guinea) That would be a complete split and likely doable a lot sooner and easier than a provincial level split. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 22:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:A reasonable idea - I've been wondering whether a Sumatra, Java, or Kalimatan split might improve this category a bit. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*Counts: Sumatra, 150; Java, 155; Nusa Tenggara, 81; Kalimantan, 40; Sulawesi, 49; Maluku Islands, 30; W. New Guinea (Papua & W. Irian Jaya), 27. I also have sub-counts by province for every single one - West Java has 53, East Nusa Tenggara has 50, no others cleared 40. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 02:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
*I'd think cats per (top three at present) island/region, and templates per province would be the ideal "forward-looking" solutuion. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
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As per discussion at [[WP:SFD#.7B.7BIndigenous-stub.7D.7D_.2F_Cat:Indigenous_peoples_stubs|WP:SFD]], it's probably time to complete the stub types for ethnic groups, or at least native or indigenous peoples. we have some continent-level splits, but are missing several. Unfortunately, naming is not uniform, which makes for a problem. We currently have, at the continental level, {{tl|Africa-ethno-group-stub}}, {{tl|Asia-ethno-group-stub}}, and {{tl|Euro-ethno-group-stub}}, but also {{tl|NorthAm-native-stub}} and {{tl|IndigenousAustralia-stub}}.
It would be useful to have stub templates for South America (SouthAm-x), Central America (CentralAm-x), the Caribbean, and Oceania. Chances are, all except the South American one would be upmrged, with a fully-fledged stub with category for South America. The question is, though, what should they be named? My personal preference is for all of them to be X-ethno-group-stubs (and with consideration made for changing the name of the two which don't fit this scheme), but alternative opinions are welcome - as is some indication of potential numbers of stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:'''Support''' {{tl|SouthAm-Native-stub}} and {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_South_America_stubs}} to mirror North American native stubbing. I think Central American is covered by Pre-Columbian, Mayan and Aztec. I think Carribean may be fine with just nbaming them Caribeans-stub. I'd opt out of "ethnic group" in America, as America has ethnic stock from all over Europe and Africa and Asia, the native people are disambiguated by using the words Native or indigenous or first nations in America. A Native American Wikiproject exists, so you can probably allow this as within scope of their Wikiproject with just 30-60 articles. I don't know enough on Oceania but it seems you can cover it with naming the ethnicities such as Polynesian. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 03:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:I did a little further research, we have Central America covered with {{tl|Mesoamerica-stub}} and South American with {{tl|pre-columbian-stub}} by its category. However I really like SouthAm-Native-stub for equality with NorthAm-Native-stub and because it allows for the people to have lived past the Pre-columbian time marker. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 09:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Addendum''' While this is receiving attention, could I add a rider template/stub for [[Uncontacted peoples]]? While not a geographic distinction, they truly are a special class of indigenous, distinct from incorporated groups. Most are in South America but some are in the West Indies, North America, and Russia.[[User:Yeago|Yeago]] 17:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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:The more I study it, Grutness, Ethnic is a valid category of each continent, while Native/Indigenous would be considered one subcategory of ethnic, not in the same tier but one subcategory of "American" or "Oceania" if you will - someone was always natives, other ethnicities moved in later (all around the World). So I'd think native and ethnic stubs are NOT exactly the same thing, so could coexist provided there are enough articles. In America there are lots of Natives to write about since they had lots of tribes and nations displaced. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 04:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
::Well, that's partly my point. The European and Asian categories are for ethnic groups, in that this is more inclusive, and can include things like "British Australians", which would otherwise have nowhere to go. Similarly, if these are only "native" North American, Caribbean, etc, then there is nowhere for groups like Acadians, Argentinian Welsh, etc to be put. Couple that with the problem in oceania that no-one is native in the strictest sense. In New Zealand, for instance, the Maori only arrived here about 900 years ago, and are only "native" by dint of being the first arrivals. And if you use that as your criterion, then you run into all sorts of other problems (Vikings become native Icelanders, for instance). For those two reasons, ethnic group is, IMO, a more useful way of splitting things than native peoples. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:Yes, and yet "natives' are not the same as ethnic, they are a sub-category of Ethnic -- in America there are over 1000's of tribes and nations and we have enough for stub of their own, nestled under ethnic as one subcategory (as in we have enough to subcategorize it already on the tribal levels).[[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 18:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
::Just in case I was not clear I think we can do both, its all compatible. Its not an either/or situation, I was looking at all the ethnic american stubs, then picturing it world wide. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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**Northern_Cape_Province | 18 |
*That's something like 2/3 catting, so I'd guess only the bottom three are at all likely to need upmerging, and hence I'll support the first six on spec. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
*Support, with upmerging for the last three. Suggest names of {{tl|KwaZuluNatal-geo-stub}}, {{tl|WesternCape-geo-stub}} etc, with {{tl|NorthWestZA-geo-stub}} for the one ambiguous one. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
* My mistake, I counted one page too many! There are approximately 180 more geo-stubs in the category now than during the last dump though. Amend proposal to support Alai and Grutness.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 00:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
**Yes, I should have said either 2/3 catting, or 2/3 articles-that-actually-existed then, or a combination of the two. It's possible there will be a fresh db dump Any Day Now(TM), in which event I'll give updated counts. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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===Maritime-trades-stub===
{{sfp other}}
I'd like to propose a general stub type Maritime-trades-stub for use with [[
*The scope seems a little ad hoc with respect to the permcats, it seems to me: roughly speaking this seems a bit like a union of {{cl|marine occupations}} and {{cl|sailors}}. Off the top of my head, I'd suggest either: creating separate upmerged templates for each of those; or, creating a stub type with a scope corresponding to a wider category (none spring to mind, but it might not be beyond the wit of man to devise and create one), that would encompass both. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
**I think I might have been a bit vague. The scope of the project includes not only the people and their occupations, but employers, historical events, labor issues, skill sets, techniques, and to some extent tools. I can't see a reasonable way to work around that level of complexity. Cheers. [[User:Haus42|Haus42]] 01:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
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***Thank you both for your efforts on this. The concept, I think, if fairly easy: "Working on water." "Water transport" is almost right, but it misses a big chunk of people who work on the water. Fishermen are the easiest example. Offshore drilling is another. I'd be happy making due with "water-transport" but it seems a bit like using a fish as a hammer (which I'm not opposed to). [[User:Haus42|Haus42]] 03:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
****I take your point; I didn't want to suggest just {{cl|maritime}}, since using adjectives as category names isn't preferred, though I suppose if the worst comes to the worst, {{cl|maritime topics}} would cover it. But then if we create {{cl|maritime topic stubs}} we'd have a substantial overlap between the two, but no strict inclusion... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
**You do realise we also already have {{tl|Fishing-stub}} which would cover at least some of that? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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*{{cl|United States point guard stubs}}
This has been oversized for a long time, but on hold due to a lack of any plausible permcats to split on. I've created those now (you'll note I personfully resisted the urge to de-Websterise l'utilisation dérivé du mot français «centre»). On the theory those'll be populated in the fullness of time, there's 1300+ such stubs, and that a basketball lineup has exactly one of each of the five positions, these should all be more than viable (unless there's a lot of very lopsided teams out there, or some subtle systematic positional bias at work). I'm not sure exactly what to suggest for templates, but I'd suggest that for some sort of clarity, they either use the name of the position in full (hyphens you could argue either way), or they at least prefix whatever obscure abbreviation might be current with the established template element "hoops-". Upmerged double-catted templates for generic forwards, generic guards, power-centers, swingmen, point forwards and other such hybrids would also be feasible, if anyone especially feels the need. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 23:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
*Have you/we considered splitting by decade of birth, same as with actors? It might be a better way of sorting than by court position since there is a certain amount of overlap with some players... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
**We did do something like that for baseball, but only after splitting by position (a bit better defined in that sport, I'll grant you), though in that case it was decade-of-activity, rather than of birth. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 06:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
***Well, some kind of split is definitely overdue... perhaps by position first and by years if any further splitting is needed (the by position cats will already be approaching 300 each). BTW, are coaches already split out? If not, that would also probably be useful. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
****They're not, but I was assuming it'd been proposed already... If not, seems like a plan. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
*****Coaches are already split out as are women. I have looked at some of the articles and there seems to be more articles with a date of birth than a position, and half those with a position are vague (point/guard could be one of four positions from what I can tell) so I would suggest a split by decade of birth. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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{{sfp create}}
I propose {{cl|Canadian football biography stubs}} and {{tl|Canadianfootball-bio-stub}}. Again there are at least 60 articles. Please note these are for people involved in the sport of [[Canadian football]] and not Canadians involved in the sport of football/soccer. I would appreciate some help with the naming of the category (and possibly template) to help distinguish this category from {{cl|Canadian soccer biography stubs}} and {{tl|Canada-footy-bio-stub}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 22:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
*Comment - we use the slightly nonintuitive {{tl|Amfoot-bio-stub}} as a child of {{tl|Americanfootball-stub}} - a similar name of Cafoot-bio-stub would make some sort of sense (not that i really like it or the American football equivalent). As to the category...? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:* that idea made melook at other stub templates, what about {{Tl|cfl-bio-stub}} analogous to {{tl|afl-bio-stub}} for australian rules football. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 23:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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:**I agree with your answer, '''I don't believe so'''. For a new stub category, the answr should be "Yes".
:I repeat what I said at SFD - a Pune-stub might be quite useful, but it is clear that you do not want a Pune-geo-stub, since very few of these articles are about locations. As such, they should be double-stubbed with a Pune-stub (if such is warranted) and with whatever Indian or Maharashtran specific stub typ[e is also correct. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
: I am not really getting what you guys are arguing about. What I see the reason behind what I feel confusing comments from you all is the fact the name is Pune-'''GEO'''-Stub. I screwed with the name, it is very misleading and I am sorry for that. When I created this stub there was no intention of creating stub for Pune geography or Pune division/district geography. My only intention was to have all pune '''city''' related article stubbed so that more volunteers chip in to expand those article. When stubbed any enthusiastic wikipedian can find that all pune '''city''' related articles at one place. This is what I want to convey, now whatever you decide its your decision. I am not keen in helping in creating stubs for all six division of Maharashtra as suggested, because frankly I am not able to see it. Plus I will be on short vacation so wont be logging in for next 7-10 days. :)
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[[User:Mayur.thakare|spacejuncky]] 04:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:Okay. To cut a long story as short as I can and to combine comments from here and SFD, part of the problem is with the geo-stub, yes, and Maharashtra-geo-stub does need splitting. When it is split (which will probably be very soon) it will almost certainly be split by district. As to a non-geo type for Pune, the main problem is the name of the city and the district are the same. To call it Pune-stub would therefore be confusing, as would calling it Pune-city-stub (which by stub naming would indicate a stub for articles on cities in Pune District). {{tl|PuneCity-stub}} would get round that, and would be used double-stubbed (i.e., articles would receive that and another stub template - for example a stub on a university in Pune would receive both Pune-stub and India-university-stub). The main question that remains is whether a separate PuneCity-stub would have enough stubs if a Pune-geo-stub was used for all articles on geography in Pune District, since it is usual in those cases not to double-stub an article with the city stub (places in New York City, for instance, get NewYork-geo-stub - NY State's geostub - but not NYC-stub). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
::District or division? The existing subtype of Maharashtra-geo-stub is Konkan-geo-stub, for the [[Konkan Division]]. Of course with Pune, we have the complication that Pune is the name of a [[Pune|city]], a [[Pune District|district]] and a [[Pune Division|division]], altho thankfully not of a taluka. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 23:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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*The current category, as in {{cl|Stub-Class Calvinism articles}}? But that's a talk-page, WP1.0 assessment style cat, and which there's already a means of populating. If you want a stub type per se, it'd by convention be at {{tl|Calvinism-stub}} / {{cl|Calvinism stubs}}. I may be confused about what you mean here... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
*Given that we have nearly 2000 stub types, all in the form X-stub, I doubt you'll get much support for calling this one stub-X. Also, there is a specific difference between the wikiproject specific article class system and general stub categories, so using the current category wouldn't make sense. If there are a reasonable number of artices, then a {{tl|Calvinism-stub}} and {{cl|Calvinism stubs}} would be reasonable, though I wonder exactly why you want that given that you're already using a WP class-grading system. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
* '''Modified proposal''': I propose instead that we name it as suggested by [[User:Alai]] and [[User:Grutness]]. Their overwhelming arguments convinced me!
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*[[Template:Macedonia-footy-bio-stub]] and [[:Category:Macedonian football biography stubs]] (60 stubs)
But there is a big problems, the total numbers of these nation's players article, almost all were stub, it look stupid to cat all article in the nation to stub cat. [[User:Matthew_hk|<span style="color:yellow; background-color:black;">Matthew_hk</span>]] [[User talk:Matthew_hk|''<
And unmerged Template for
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*{{lt|Montenegro-footy-bio-stub}}
[[User:Matthew_hk|<span style="color:yellow; background-color:black;">Matthew_hk</span>]] [[User talk:Matthew_hk|''<
*'''Support''' categories are close enough and templates seem viable size wise. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 07:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - I have gone ahead and started making cats. [[User:Poulsen|Poulsen]] 06:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
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===[[:Category:Italian football biography stubs|Italian]], [[:Category:French football biography stubs|French football biography stubs]], split===
{{sfp create}}
Just like the [[:Category:English football biography stubs|English one]], split into player's position. [[User:Matthew_hk|<span style="color:yellow; background-color:black;">Matthew_hk</span>]] [[User talk:Matthew_hk|''<
*Makes sense. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
**'''Support''' . [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 07:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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[[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 01:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
:Wiktionary suggests that Luxembourgian is the noun, Luxembourgish is the adjective. Thus bio-stubs relating to Luxembourgians should be in Cat: Luxembourgish people stubs. The politicians permcat is thus incorrectly named and should probably go to CFD. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
::Based on both [[List of adjectival forms of place names]] and the style guide I use, the GPO style guide, Luxembourger is the noun, and Luxembourg is the adjective form to be used. Firefox's spell checker doesn't complain about Luxembourgian (or Luxembourger), but it does not like Luxembourgish at all. [[Luxembourgian]] appears to refer to the language not the people. My 1962 copy of Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, doesn't give any adjectival forms at all which suggests that the word hasn't been in the English language long enough to obtain a definitive adjective form. Still, given that we have several sources that concur that using ''Luxembourg people'' and ''Luxembourg politicians'' is correct usage (not necessarily the only correct usage, but at least a correct usage) why don't we go with {{cl|Luxembourg politician stub}}? <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 09:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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*I can't say I'm happy about about using an abbreviation, albeit one that is well determined as long as skiing is being mentioned. How about {{cl|Nordic skiing biography stubs}} / {{tl|Nordic-skiing-bio}} et al. instead of the XC entries? At the least, we could use it as a parent anyway for those who compete in the Nordic combined so as to as avoid double stubbing. Also, shouldn't that be {{tl|skijumping-bio-stub}}? After all, we don't have a {{tl|ski-bio-stub}}. Finally, we ought to consider {{tl|biathlete-stub}} (65 entries) and either {{tl|shootingsport-bio-stub}} (123 entries, not counting the biathletes) or {{tl|shootingsport-stub}} (25 non-bio entries plus the athletes) to serve as a second parent for the biathlete stubs short of {{cl|Firearms stubs}}. (All numbers courtesy of Stub Sense). <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 23:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
:* I agree that it probably should be skiijumping and not skijump, I also have no problem with using crosscountry as opposed to XC it's just that when you have a nation split the template becomes very large but then that not a big problem. Using nordic skiing instead of XC would not be a good idea because nordic skiing also encompases ski jumping, biathlon, nordic combined but as a parent for these cats I think would be useful
I back a proposal for biathlon but suggest {{tl|biathlon-bio-stub}} in case there are any people who are known for there involvement in biathlon without necessarily being biathletes (coaches, organisers, announcers etc). I also back {{Cl|Sports shooters biography stubs}} but should the template be at {{tl|shootingsports-bio-stub}} (the events are categorised under shooting sports) or {{tl|sportshooting-bio-stub}} (the people involved are categorised under sport shooters). [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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**Hi, I added some more, bringing the total above 30 articles. I should have mentioned that all these articles are part of WikiProject Syria (The requirement mentions 30 or more if associated with a WikiProject). Also, I am not opposed to having sport-bio and/or sport-venue templates. [[User:Asabbagh|Asabbagh]] 03:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
***The scope of WPJ Syria is Syria (unless I've very much mistaken), and there's already a {{tl|Syria-stub}}, so the "30 clause" doesn't apply here (otherwise, I'd apply everywhere). So, I'd suggest upmerging, as above. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
*I believe the category is likely to be populated with 60 and more stubs in time. There are still hundreds of uncreated Syrian sport biography articles which are when created, most probably going to be stubs. That is if there aren't already 60 or more uncategorized articles out there. By the way, I've moved the stub template to the correct page - {{tl|Syria-sport-stub}}. - [[User:Anas Salloum|'''<
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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::Personally, I'd upmerge it into sports stubs. There's no wikiproject as yet. —[[user:Kncyu38|KNcyu38]] ([[user talk:Kncyu38|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kncyu38|contribs]]) 08:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Based on the current permcat parentage, I'd say it belongs under {{cl|Culture stubs}}. Despite ESPN's efforts to turn everything into a competitive sport, juggling is more popularly considered to be entertainment or recreation than sport. However, if there are enough stubs to warrant a separate stub category, I wouldn't oppose adding {{cl|Sports stubs}} as a second parent of {{cl|Juggling stubs}}. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 20:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
:ISTR we at one time had a circus-skills-stub or similar, which at the time was deleted as not having enough stubs. perhaps it would be useful to reinstate it for juggling, acrobatics, and other similar performing arts? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
::Just in case you're asking me: I'd be fine with any stub template that contains the word juggling, really. —[[user:Kncyu38|KNcyu38]] ([[user talk:Kncyu38|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kncyu38|contribs]]) 05:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
:::[http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/queries/stub_sense?category=circus+skills&num_pages=300&dbname=enwiki According to stubsense], that would seem to just about be viable (as an upmerger target for the juggling stub template or otherwise). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 06:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
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* and most articles in [[:Category:Trail stubs]]
*The main problem as I see it is that either this or trail stubs is viable, having both seems a bit counterproductive - as you say, most of one would be in the other. Perhaps widening the scope of trail-stub to cover both trail walking and backpacking would be a better option than a completely new stub type? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*I agree that the cross-cutting across {{tl|trail-stub}}, {{tl|climbing-stub}}, and {{tl|leisure-company-stub}} is a problem. That last, at just over 200 stubs is not in need of a split sizewise, but I could support an {{tl|recreation-company-stub}} to make the companies there more likely to be relevant to WikiProject Backpacking. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 00:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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#create {{tl|hiking-stub}} and {cl|Hiking stubs}}
#upmerge {{tl|trail-stub}} into that and delete {{cl|Trail stubs}} - at least for the time being.
That way, we don't have a nearly empty Hiking stubs category. if it looks like there are sufficient stubs on hiking that aren't about trails, per se, then we can always re-create that stub's own category later. The backpacking WikiProject would then have three different stub types and two categories (the other being the {{tl|climbing-stub}}/{{cl|climbing stubs}} combo) to look for articles in. We can also have a look at splitting leisure-comany-stub at a later date, if it grows some. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:Yes, I agree with you all. I was hoping to create a backpacking stub that could cover all sorts of relavent articles without the need for lots of different tags. This would provide an easy way for users to access many types of backpacking/hiking related stub data and really help the project out. If this remains the generall view, I will create it and perform the merger after the designated time (unless someone with more knowledge that will do a better job would like to do it). [[User:Leif902|Leif902]] 22:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
::'''Support''' both hiking stub and category. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 03:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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==={{cl|The Gambia geography stubs}}===
{{sfp create}}
And another country reaches the 60+ mark - 74 stubs, in fact. This one has had a template for a while, and can now be de-upmerged. And yes, since the name of the country is officially ''The'' Gambia... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*'''Support''' of course. Just wait until you see the number of geo-stub splits that I can propose in a week woo hoo![[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 12:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strong support for speedying''' I don't see a reason to wait for a category in this situation.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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{{tl|Bermuda-sport-bio-stub}} / {{cl|Bermudian sportspeople stubs}}<br>
{{tl|Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub}} / {{cl|Bermudian cricket biography stubs}}<br>
{{tl|UK-Atlantic-bio-stub}} / {{cl|British Atlantic territory biography stubs}}<br>
or some other way. Personally I feel that {{tl|Bermuda-bio-stub}} would be the way to go as being of most use with an upmerged {{tl|Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub}}<br>
[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
*I'd go for both a Bermuda-bio-stub and a UK-Atlantic-bio-stub, even if the latter is upmerged. There are a lot of articles about Bermudian cricketers, it's true, but there are also quite a number of other articles about Bermudians (including, IIRC, one about a guy who is a local eccentric who goes out to wave to the traffic every day!). A UK-Atlantic-bio-stub would cater for the several Falklanders and St. Helenans (Helenians?) that no doubt have articles, and could either become a parent stubcat for the bermuda one, or simply be upmerged into the main UK_Atlantic cat. An upmerged Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub might also be prudent, since it will no doubt increase past threshold pretty soon (see also the Ireland and Canada noms above). I must admit that the "UK Atlantic" stubcats are a bit of a kludge anyway - there is no permcat parent, but there is also no easy way to separate these stubs out. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
* '''Support''' for Bermuda-stub, bio-stub, and templates for the rest.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
**Can i just point out I wasn't proposing all just listing some possible splits. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 22:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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European catchall stub was proposed elsewhere, so I suggest making one for Asia too. There is already {{tl|asia-singer-stub}} and {{tl|asia-musician-stub}}, so this one makes it step further. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 17:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
*Support, seems very logical. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
*Support from me, too. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==={{cl|European musician stubs}}===
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*{{cl|Prehistoric fish stubs}} 71
I think these were mooted in passing on a previous occasion, but for clarity I'll air them here again. (Parent oversized again.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. In fact, I think I may have suggested it last time. The reptile one will allow a natural parent for dinosaur-stub a(and hopefully stop people adding that template to pterosaurs, plesiosaurs, and ichthyosaurs). May have some problem with synapsids, though, since there are two schools of thought as to whether they were "real" reptiles or a separate reptile-like group. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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{{cl|Winery stubs}}/{{tl|winery-stub}} (currently 135)<br/>
{{cl|Wine region stubs}}/{{tl|wine-region-stub}} (currently 86)<br/>
{{cl|Wine biography stubs}}/{{tl|wine-bio-stub}} (currently 69) - there is currently a {{tl|drink-bio-stub}} but most of these do not seem have that tag. --- [[User:Bethling |<
* As {{cl|Wine regions}} is a descendant (great-great-great-grandchild) of {{cl|Geography}} it probably would be best to make that stub template be {{tl|wine-geo-stub}} (With {{tl|wine-region-stub}} as a redirect or vice versa as the template and {{tl|wine-geo-stub}} as the redirect.) so to indicate the link with other geography based stubs. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 03:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)'
**Hm -I'd have gone the other way on that - I'd prefer wine-region-stub with a redirect at wine-area-stub (to parallel protected-area-stub). It's perhaps a little too specialised to be considerd primarily a geo-type, I think. BTW, support all four, but with the usual caveat about double-stubbing with subregion-geo/nation-bio/etc. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
***Howdy, as a wine project member, I would also prefer wine-region-stub since that is how those areas are most commonly refer to. You will rarely, if ever, hear about a wine ''geographical'' area. [[User:Agne27 |Agne]][[Special:Contributions/Agne27|<sup>Cheese</sup>]]/[[User Talk:Agne27|<sup>Wine</sup>]] 07:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
**BTW, I know that the two terms aren't entirely interchangeable, but would a vineyard-stub redirect for winery-stub be appropriate, and wording it so that it covers both? It's quite likely that a lot of the stubs cover one or the other but not both, and it would probably be useful to keep them all in the same place for editors. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
***The vineyard and the winery usually have the same name, i.e. the last name of the owner is the name of the winery and the vineyard ... I think.[[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 01:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
*I'd go with {{tl|wine-region-stub}} for the (actual) template, to echo the language of the category. The various redirects mentioned would probably be "allowed", but I wouldn't see any of them as being "required" (as [[Dr. Feel]] would say). I see what Grutness is saying about vineyards; as there's no separate {{cl|vineyards}} permcat, that may be reasonable too, though possibly a separate up(?)merged template would be preferable. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
** Would "Wine Producer" be a better way to phrase it maybe? --- [[User:Bethling |<
***I'd prefer to keep the language of the permcat, and lump in the vineyards (semi-)regardless, and worry about 'em later. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' all except Wine region stubs: Region is essentially overlap or distracting from the geography stubs. For example Sonoma and Napa Counties, California, and most of France are wine regions. So it means double stubbing with existing geographical stubs. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 01:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
**Trying to explain my position we can easily make Napa and Sonoma Counties and France stubs appear under Perm Cat for wine regions, can't we?[[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 01:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
***Although there's a lot a wine made there, I'm not sure that I'd consider them as wine regions by themselves. They're counties that happen to contain a number of defined wine regions. --- [[User:Bethling |<
**Although 'technically' the counties are wine regions, what I'd like the stubs for are the AOC's in France, the AVAs in the US, and similarly nationally defined wine regions in other countries. So things like [[Columbia Valley AVA]] in the US or [[Châteauneuf-du-Pape AOC]]. These sorts of regions are really only defined and used within the wine world and wouldn't really have the double stubbing problem. --- [[User:Bethling |<
***[[Napa County]] wouldn't be classified as a wine region and it would be a tremendous rarity to ever see ''Napa County'' listed on a wine bottle. [[Napa Valley (wine)|Napa Valley]] on the other hand, is a legally defined [[American Viticultural Area]] and can thusly be considered a "wine region". AVA's and AOC are distinctly classified and thus little concern for overlap. [[User:Agne27 |Agne]][[Special:Contributions/Agne27|<sup>Cheese</sup>]]/[[User Talk:Agne27|<sup>Wine</sup>]] 02:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
****Okay seeing there is a precise wine region definition, I can agree, thank you. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 09:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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We already have several stub types for different language families, but not this one. There are several hundred of these languages, most of which will unfortunately remain stubs for a long time to come. Some may have already been incorrectly given the stub template for Austronesian languages. --[[User:Ptcamn|Ptcamn]] 22:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
:Are you saying there's several hundred stub articles at present (or at least, over 60), or just that there's severeal hundred such languages? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
::FWIW, Alai, there are hundreds of articles already - not sure how many of them are stubs, but at a guess most of them are. May be worth running this past whoever cameup with that "two-letter code language stub template" system, though. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:::I believe there are enough stubs based on the number in the language category, but that's just a guess. I'll get on counting it. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 13:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
::::To answer my own question, from the Feb. db dump, I can find [[User:Alai/Papuan|exactly 60]] tagged with lang-stub, and under {{cl|Papuan languages}}. So, support. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
:{{tl|pa-lang-stub}}? Owch. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
:Do they speak that oddly in Pittsburgh...? :/ [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:: I can archive the category as a consensus to create. However, I cannot with a conscious archive "pa-language-stub" as a clear consensus. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 06:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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Parent is oversized again. Several of these have been proposed previously: I include them here for the sake of completeness, and since since several of these are either-or. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
*Well, if we're going by order, then bird of prey is out (especially since falconiformes would cover much of it) - it could easily be hijacked by the star trek project if we weren't careful, too! :) Mind you, that would also rule out anatidae and anatoidea since IIRC they're anseriformes. Given that, I'd go with Galliformes, Anseriformes, and Falconiformes. Keeping to the [[Bird#Bird_orders|order level]] might be appropriate for a while, at least. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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==={{tl|IR-stub}}===
{{sfp top| sent to ''[[WP:SFD|SFD]]'' for deletion}}
Stub for use by [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republicanism]]. <
:What does Infrared have to with Irish Republicanism? A definite need for a rename to something way less ambiguous at a minimum. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 01:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
::Could be redirected to finance-stub, since I doubt there would be enough stubs on Inland Revenue for their own stub type. More seriously, this should definitely be deleted - republicanism in Ireland is to do with irish politicvs and irish history, and as such either an Ireland-poli-stub or Ireland-hist-stub would be the way to go. We don't have stubs for republicanism movements in other countries, and there's no reason why we should start with one that is a likely edit-war magnet like the Irish one. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
:'''delete''' for being ambiguous. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 05:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
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{{sfp top|East China, Southwest China, North China, Northeast China, Anhui, Guangdong, and Zhejiang geo stubs all proposed. No clear outcome.}}
We've already split off South Central China geography stubs into a category which contains five templates for the provinces in the region, and that's done something to reduce the PRC geography stubs. However, the main cat is still at five pages - slightly less than 1,000 stubs. I propose furthering the Alai solution by adding four more categories: East China geography stubs, Southwest China geography stubs, North China geography stubs, and Northeast China geography stubs. Only the Northwest region is not ready for a split - for all of the others I simply stopped counting at 65, and I stopped at letter "L" so there would be quite a bit remaining. This would save a lot of work down the road and get the category under control. Along with that, I propose making the Anhui, Guangdong, and Zhejiang geography stubs subcategories of the relevant regions. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 13:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
*Sounds reasonable. With any luck, it may also be a step on the way to alleviating the ongoing "mainland" bickering. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*Support. (Eponymous support even, I suppose.) This is clearly growing quite quickly, and if it continues doing so, we may be able to just split by more of the first-order divisions before too long. I think we should probably create {{cl|Northwestern China geography stubs}} too, since it'd have an existing subcat in the form of {{cl|Xinjiang geography stubs}}. Of course, it won't so much alleviate the "mainland" bickering, as open up a second front: whichever possible parent one chooses, the other faction will complain about it (witness Instantnood showing up on my talk page recently in relation to the South Centrals). I believe I'm going to take the matter back to SFD, and perhaps if necessary DRV, to attempt to get clearer resolution one way or another. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
::I have to say I doubt whether this will result in any less fighting. Even in my current ___location on the island that may or may not be part of the PRC or the ROC depending on who you ask, people can't get along politically. Expect people on both sides of the strait and beyond to get along? I don't think so. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 04:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
:::I was really meaning more with HK and Macao vs "Mainland". RoC is asking too much. If the UN can't solve that, I doubt a bunch of stub sorters can. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
::::As I was saying, it won't so much alleviate anything as... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. But the new categories should remain sub-cats of Category:Mainland China geography stubs in any case. Mainland China (which is commonly known simply as China) is the main part of the People's Republic of China. [[User:Michael G. Davis|Michael G. Davis]] 19:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
*:All very well, except that "Mainland China" is an ''unofficial'' description which lends itself to all sorts of misinterpretation (is Hainan mainland China?). Also, there are no permcats for "Mainland China" (for the same reason), so there's no reason why there should be stubcats. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*** As far as I know "mainland China" is not unofficial. Governments use it, international organizations use it, and the press uses it, too. Hainan is mainland China. What do you mean by permcats? [[User:Michael G. Davis|Michael G. Davis]] 04:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
****Permcats, to quote [[Wikipedia:Glossary#Permcat]], ''A permanent category - that is, a category into which an article is assigned to aid reader navigation, as opposed to a temporary assignment relating to a process such as cleanup or stub sorting.'' [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''[[User_talk:Grutness|<small
*****Thank you. I created several permanent categories for mainland China, but another editor was following me all the way through, took away all articles, and requested to delete these categories. Why did it happen? By the way, Hainan has always been considered to be mainland China. [[User:Michael G. Davis|Michael G. Davis]] 07:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
******These categories being? Where they considered at [[WP:CFD]], or "speedied"? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 08:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
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