Talk:Freemasonry and AFC Telford United: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 16:45, 28 April 2007

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{{Football club infobox |

{{WikiProject Freemasonry|class=B}}

clubname = AFC Telford United |

{{formerFA}}

motto = Numquam Obliviscere "Never Forget" |

{{Controversial3}}

image = [[Image:Av-34.jpg |AFC Telford United crest]] |

{| class="infobox" width="270px"

fullname = Association Football Club Telford United |

|-

nickname = The Bucks or Lillywhites |

!align="center" colspan="4"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/> [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]

motto = Numquam Obliviscere "Never Forget" |

----

founded = [[2004]] ([[1872]] as Parish Church Institute) |

|-

ground = [[New Bucks Head]]<br />[[Telford]] |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 1|Archive 1]]

capacity = 6300 |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 2|Archive 2]]

owner = [[The Supporters]] |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 3|Archive 3]]

chairman = {{flagicon|England}} [[Lee_Carter_AFCTU|Lee Carter]] |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 4|Archive 4]]

manager = {{flagicon|England}} [[Rob Smith (footballer)|Rob Smith]] {{flagicon|England}} [[Larry Chambers]]|

|-

league = [[Northern Premier League Premier Division]] |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 5|Archive 5]]

season = 2005-06 |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 6|Archive 6]]

position = NPL Premier Division, 10th |

|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 7|Archive 7]]

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|[[Talk:Freemasonry/Archive 17|Archive 17]]

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}}

'''A.F.C. Telford United''' are an [[England | English]] football club based in [[Telford]], [[Shropshire]], playing in the [[Northern Premier League Premier Division]].

They were formed on [[28 May]] [[2004]] by supporters of [[Telford United]] after it became clear that the club would cease to exist. [[Bernard McNally]] was installed as the manager as the team embarked on their first ever season. The club's colours are black and white.

== WikiMasons? Background==

AFC Telford United are a phoenix club formed from the ashes of [[Telford United]] in 2004. Late into the 2003-04 season, the [[Telford United]] chairman and 100% shareholder Andrew John Shaw's business empire collapsed and all funding for United disappeared, forcing the club he had attempted to bankroll into the Football League into administration.

Are there any other Wikipedians who're Masons? --[[User:PaxEquilibrium|PaxEquilibrium]] 23:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The club's supporters rallied and raised around £50,000 in two months, however with crippling debts owed to various creditors amounting to over £4million there was little hope for the club and the old Telford United were forced into liquidation on [[27th May]] [[2004]].

:Lots. Why? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 23:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

On the same day that the proposed liquidation was announced, the supporters trust (Telford United Supporters Ltd) created and became the sole owners of a new football club - AFC Telford United. In the close season, manager Bernard McNally was appointed and a new squad assembled, the ground lease and assets were secured and the new club was placed in the [[Northern Premier League]] Division One by the FA.

::Never met another. --[[User:PaxEquilibrium|PaxEquilibrium]] 22:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

==Performance==

:::Now you have :>) ... indeed most of the regular editors to this page are Brother Masons (with a few anti-Masons thrown in to keep us on our toes). [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 04:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

In their first season, the club began with indifferent form, with a lack of consistency leaving them in mid-table and out of both the [[FA Cup]] and [[FA Trophy]]. However, following a 1-0 away defeat at [[Willenhall Town F.C.|Willenhall Town]] on [[December 30]] [[2004]], the side never lost another league game all season, challenging for the title before eventually finishing third place, three points behind the champions [[North Ferriby United A.F.C.|North Ferriby United]]. In the subsequent playoffs, they defeated [[Eastwood Town]] 1-0 before defeating [[Kendal Town F.C.|Kendal Town]] 2-1 in the final to clinch promotion. The final was attended by 4,215 people, a record in that league.

:Yup ([[User:FunkyNassau|FunkyNassau]] 13:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

Midway through their second season, Telford found themselves wallowing in second from bottom position of the table. Under much supporter unrest, McNally was removed as manager, with [[Sean Parrish]] taking over the duties as caretaker. Results improved immediately, and the side were unbeaten under Parrish's guidance.

::You may be interested in this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_in_the_Freemasons Category:Wikipedians in the Freemasons] :) --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 13:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

On Thursday 16 February, the new management team was announced: Rob Smith assisted by Larry Chambers. The pair had been managing [[Willenhall Town F.C.|Willenhall Town]]. The team's results have since improved dramatically and after an unbeaten run after the installation of the new management duo, they finished the season in 10th place.

:::Although clearly some of the people on that list are not Masons. (And some others including myself just as certainly are) --[[User:Bolognaking|Bolognaking]] 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

After a frenzied summer of transfer activity during which virtually the entire squad was renovated, the club entered it's third season in much better shape to take the Unibond Premier division and mount a serious challenge for the title. After enjoying the club's most successful start to a season, and the most successful start of any Telford side in history, AFC Telford United topped the Unibond Premier League table after 15 games whilst racking up the best goal difference of any senior team in the British Isles. After an impressive start and 4 points against 2nd placed local rivals [[Hednesford Town F.C.|Hednesford Town]] form began to slip.

::::Well it's based on the userbox usage which claims that the individual is a Freemason. Now I'd agree that some of them might just like the userbox, but surely not that many ;)

::::[[User:ALR|ALR]] 20:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

==The New Bucks Head==

== Pythagorean Brotherhoood ==

AFC Telford United's [[New Bucks Head]] stadium is arguably the best non-league ground in the country, also putting many football league grounds to shame.

Most definitely a "not proven" [[WP:FRINGE|fringe]] theory... the vast bulk of historical evidence does not support this theory... documented evidence says that FM was either a decentant of operative guilds or made up whole cloth around 1600s. perhaps it could be added to [[History of Freemasonry]] if properly sourced, but too Fringe for the main article. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 01:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Construction of the new stadium commenced in 2000, replacing the Bucks Head ground which had been home to Wellington Town and later [[Telford United]] for over a century. Although the Bucks Head held a special place in the hearts of many supporters, it was in desperate need of renovation. The terraces were a mixture of concrete steps and cinder banking, one of the stands was built from wood and the toilet facilities left a lot to be desired.

== US Presidents ==

In the 1999-2000 season, demolition work began on the Railway End terraces, albeit slowly at first. The following season, the new stadium slowly began to take shape. [[Telford United F.C.|Telford United]] played with only two terraces in operation, with a small temporary stand situated on what is now the East Terrace and portacabins in the car park were used for changing rooms.

Given that this article is very long, and that we are attempting to cut things or move them to sub-articles, I don't think we need a section on the US Presidents that were Masons (as has twice now been added by an anon editor). Other than that, I have no real objection to the material. I simply think it would fit better in one of the sub-articles, such as [[History of Freemasonry]]. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 22:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The stadium was finally completed in 2003 and can now hold up to 6,300 supporters.

:Given that it's not that many, and it's been less frequent as time goes on, and that they're all listed in the List of Famous Freemasons, I don't think we need it at all in either article. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 23:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

::No problem with that. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 23:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

:::I concur with BB - redundancy is the bane of Wiki. :) [[User:Bdevoe|Bdevoe]] 20:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

== Problems with new template ==

==Current First Team Squad==

[[User:Toussaint|Toussaint]] has added a new template to the bottom of almost all of the Freemasonry articles (it was deleted from this article) ... This is an OK concept, but the execution was flawed. I have already caught a few errors - for example, because he used the article entitled [[List of Grand Lodges recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England]] as a section header, and placed links to all of the articles about various Grand Lodge under that head, he ended up implying that some GLs and GOs (such as the Grand Orient of Italy) are recognized when actually they are not. I have corrected those errors I could find... but people may want to check the info (at [[Template:Freemasonry]]) to see if there are other problems I did not catch.

{{football squad start}}

<!-- For help using the below template, please see [[Template talk:Football squad player]] -->

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=GK| name=[[Stuart Brock]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=GK| name=[[Damien Stevens]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Richard Beale (footballer)|Richard Beale]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Dean Craven]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Andy Jones (footballer)|Andy Jones]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Inderpaul Khela]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Dennis Pearce]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Steve Pope]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Richard Teesdale]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Jimmy Turner]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=DF| name=[[Dave Woodvine]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Lee Chilton]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Chris Cornes|Chris Cornes (Loan)]]}}

{{football squad mid}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Gary Fitzpatrick]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Steve Palmer (footballer)|Steve Palmer]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Carl Rodgers]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Jai Stanley]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Ben Twigger]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Lee Vaughan]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=MF| name=[[Scott Willis]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=FW| name=[[Tyrone Barnett]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=FW| name=[[Steve Foster (footballer)|Steve Foster]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=FW| name=[[Justin Marsden]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=Scotland | pos=FW| name=[[Lee Moore (footballer)|Lee Moore]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=FW| name=[[Dean Perrow]]}}

{{fs player| no=-- | nat=England | pos=FW| name=[[Gary Birch ]]}}

{{football squad end}}

Given that he added the template to so many articles, it is probably easier to correct the template rather than delete it from each article. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 20:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

:I'd probably delete it anyway for reasons stated on the template talk page, but I hacked it down quite a bit in the meantime. Good idea, bad execution. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 01:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

===Goalscorers this Season===

== Idea for new section ==

Would anyone be interested in writing about the lodges that were established in British colonies in Empire days? I know very little about Freemasonry, but I'm curious about the history of Masonic activity in (for example) Africa, the subcontinent, Malaysia - places in which the lay person might not expect to find a Masonic presence. Readers might find a useful starting point here http://homepage.eircom.net/~lawe/MASONICFOR.htm Regards, [[User:Notreallydavid|Notreallydavid]] 11:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:While this sounds like an interesting subject, I feel that it would belong naturally in the article [[History of Freemasonry]], and not here. After all, this article is currently at 65kb, which is a wee bit more than the [[Wikipedia:Article size|suggested]] lenght. And btw; why would a layperson not expect to find masons in the places you mention? [[User:WegianWarrior|WegianWarrior]] 12:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

::This should definitely be added to [[History of Freemasonry]]... it is a topic that I have been meaning to address in that article for quite a while. I did some preliminary research on the foundation and growth of Masonry in India and Australia, but want to do more. Thanks for the nudge. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 13:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

:::[[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]], if you need help with this, please let me know. I live in southeastern Ontario, where the United Empire Loyalists settled after leaving the US in the late-1700's. Some of the lodges in this region (Kingston, Belleville, etc.) are tied to the history of Canada (Sir John A. MacDonald, first Prime Minister of Canada, belonged to a lodge in Kingston - his regalia is on display in the atrium; quite fascinating...but I digress...) I would be interested in assisting with research for a section on this, and perhaps even lead it for Canada. Thoughts? --[[User:4B54L0M|Absalom (4B54L0M)]] 19:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

::::Sounds great. The [[History of Freemasonry]] article does need work. As for advice... Keep it as general as possible (ie focus on all of Canada, not just one province) and try to keep it short. Thanks. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 14:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

==* ''Ancients''Steve or Foster''Antients'' ? ==17

* '''Lee Moore''' 14

* '''Dean Craven''' 8

* '''Justin Marsden''' 6

* '''Gary Birch''' 5

* '''Jimmy Turner''' 4

* '''Lee Vaughan''' 4

* '''Tyrone Barnett''' 3

* '''Andy Jones''' 3

* '''Dean Perrow''' 3

* '''Richard Beale''' 2

** Gary Hay 2 (Now at [[Bromsgrove_Rovers_F.C.|Bromsgrove Rovers]])

* '''Carl Rodgers''' 2

* '''Richard Teesdale''' 2

* '''Ben Twigger''' 2

* '''Inderpaul Khela''' 1

* '''Steve Pope''' 1

* '''Jai Stanley''' 1

** Glenn Tolley 1 (Now at [[Newtown_F.C.|Newtown AFC]])

* '''Scott Willis''' 1

Refer to the edits by [[user:4B54L0M|4B54L0M]], where s/he changed from ''ancient'' to ''antient''. Which form would be the best to use? Would it make sence to - the first time the term is mentioned - to say something like "ancient (sometimes spelled antient)" or simular? [[User:WegianWarrior|WegianWarrior]] 06:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

:"Ancient (sometimes spelled antient)" is a very good idea. Only those very familiar with Masonic History will understand the "antient" version of the spelling. if we used the latter version, we would constently have well meaning but uninformed editors swinging by to "correct" the article... not to mention the spelling bots. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 13:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::Good point [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] - There was some inconsistency in the article regarding the use of ''ancient'' and ''antient.'' I agree with you - many will try to correct it, albeit in a well-meaning manner. Also, if the article is supposed to be objective, then we should use [[User:WegianWarrior|WegianWarrior]]'s suggestion.

::First time on this page, and have added to my watchlist - hope I can contribute some meaningful items, and help police its disfacement (such as happened yesterday when the history section became an Islamic rant). Should I stumble on that again, how do I restore the original text? BTW - Royal Edward #585 AF&AM GRC Kingston Ontario Canada --[[User:4B54L0M|Absalom (4B54L0M)]] 17:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Indicates player is still at the club.'''

:::Welcome to the page Absalom. FYI I have added the parenthetical on the spelling (I had to drop a different parenthetical about it being called the "Athol" Grand Lodge, as I could not figure out a way to keep that and the sentence syntax... but as the "Athol" tag is even more obscure than the Antients one, I don't think it hurts the article not to mention it.)

**Indicates player has now left the club.

:::As for vandalism... unfortunately this happens. Quite a lot actually. You can revert to non-vandalized versions by clicking on the history button, then selecting the last clean version (by clicking on the date/time text, and ''not'' by clicking one of the 'see differences' buttons)... this will bring up the old text. Click on "edit this page" and save without making any changes. Remember to add an edit summary with "Rv vandalism" or simply "Rvv". [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 17:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Thanks, Blueboar - I appreciate the advice regarding reversing vandalism. That should be posted somewhere (oh, wait, now it is)!

* Goals counted include those scored in The Unibond League Premier Division , The FA Cup , The FA Trophy , The Shropshire Senior Cup and The Unibond League Challenge Cup. Goals scored in friendly matches are not counted towards totals.

::::I'll do my best to check in regularly, and will discuss potential content changes here, or on the various other talk pages before posting - unless I find an item I believe to be 100% factually incorrect, or in need of clarification (in other words, I will use common sense). Cheers. --[[User:4B54L0M|Absalom (4B54L0M)]] 05:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

==Club Records==

== New RFC at [[Jahbulon]] ==

*'''Record Home Win:''' 4-0 vs [[Belper_Town_F.C.|Belper Town,]] 12/04/2005

** 5-1 vs [[Market_Drayton_Town_F.C.|Market Drayton Town]], 18/04/2006 (Shropshire Senior Cup Semi-Final 2006)

** 5-1 vs [[Leek_Town_F.C.|Leek Town,]] 30/09/2006

** 4-0 vs [[Gateshead_F.C.|Gateshead,]] 11/11/2006

*'''Record Away Win:''' 7-0 vs [[Runcorn_FC_Halton|Runcorn FC Halton,]] 17/04/2006.

*'''Record Home Defeat:''' 6-3 vs [[Bradford_Park_Avenue_F.C.|Bradford (Park Avenue),]] 03/09/2005

*'''Record Away Defeat:''' 5-1 vs [[Shrewsbury_Town_F.C.|Shrewsbury Town,]] 27/07/2004 (Shropshire Senior Cup Final 2004)

** 4-0 vs [[Witton_Albion_F.C.|Witton Albion,]] 26/12/2005.

*'''Record Home Crowd:''' 5710 vs [[Burscough_F.C.|Burscough FC,]] 28/04/2007

*'''Record Away Crowd:''' 3005 vs [[Hednesford_Town_F.C.|Hednesford Town,]] 01/01/2007

re: unencyclopedic tag. Please add your comments. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 04:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Unbeaten Run''' 37 games, 21/1/2006 to 9/12/2006

== ordering of appendix sections ==

*'''Best League Finish:''' 10/22, [[Northern_Premier_League_Premier_Division|Northern League Premier Division]] 2005-06.

We just had a minor back and forth on the ordering of the appendix sections, and one of the comments said ''(nope, see Wikipedia:Annotated article and WP:Cite: correct order is 1) see also, 2) notes and references, 3) external links)'' which, frankly really ticks me off to no end, because neither one of those sections has layout as a policy issue, because it ISN'T, layout is a guideline, as noted at [[WP:GTL|the guide to layout]], which says ''It is okay to change the sequence of these appendices, but the Notes and References sections should be next to each other. For example, you may put "Further reading" above "Notes and references" or vice versa.''. So, for Bog's sake, please don't go citing ''guidelines'' as if they were ''policy''.--[[User:Vidkun|Vidkun]] 17:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Best FA Cup Performance:''' 2nd Qualifying Round vs [[Nuneaton_Borough_F.C.|Nuneaton Borough]] 24/09/2005 (1-3)

*'''Best FA Trophy Performance:''' 3rd Qualifying Round (Replay) vs [[Worksop_Town_F.C.|Worksop Town]] 29/11/2005 (1-2)

== citations ==

*'''Best Shropshire Senior Cup Performance:''' Final - 3 Times,

The lead should not have anywhere near this many citations. Everything that appears in the should be a summary of something that appears in the body and is sourced there. The citations on every phrase are distracting and break up the text, and moving them into the main body will cut down on the density and increase readability. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 01:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

**Best result vs [[Shrewsbury_Town_F.C.|Shrewsbury Town,]] 25/07/2006, (1-1 - Shrewsbury Win 3-1 on penalties)

*'''Best Unibond Challenge Cup Performance:''' 3rd Round vs [[Witton_Albion_F.C.|Witton Albion,]] 07/01/2006 (0-1)

*'''Best Unibond Chairman's Cup Performance:''' Semi-Final vs [[Kidsgrove_Athletic_F.C.|Kidsgrove Athletic,]] 05/03/2005 (1-3 AET)

:I'm guessing you missed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/archive12#References_in_the_lead_section this] which suggests that references in the lead section are allowed. Consider, the standard is [[WP:V]], and if something in the lead needs to be verified, assuming the reader will find the reference in the main body is probably not the best idea.--[[User:Vidkun|Vidkun]] 16:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

::I will go one step further... the first few paragraphs of this article are not really a standard "lead" (ie a few paragraphs that tells the reader what is in the rest of the article. Rather, it is a basic introduction to the overall topic of 'what is Freemasonry' (one that gives actual information not found in the rest of the article). This is due to a conscious choice NOT to follow the standard format. This article's topic is far too complex to summarize in a standard lead. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 16:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Record Goal Scorer:''' [[Kyle_Perry|Kyle Perry]], 32 goals. (September 2004-July 2006)

:::Whilst I'm not convinced by the argument that the intro has too many citations I would agree that it's quite clunky and doesn't read well. In fact the whole article needs a thorough going over to bring it back into a coherent whole, at the moment the whole does not exceed the sum of the parts. However having thought about it a few times I'm not sure if I could take the inevitable trauma of trying to do it, because I'm conscious that there will be interminable line by line criticism of any effort from some quarters.

*'''Most Goals In One Season:''' [[Kyle_Perry|Kyle Perry]], 23 goals (2004-05)

:::In terms of the intro itself it is a little focussed on the privacy aspect at the expense of what the craft is actually about. Also the ''And X says....'' style isn't a particularly academic tone. We're not using citations consistently, at times they're out in full, at others they're referenced in the footnotes.

*'''Most Appearances:''' [[Stuart_Brock|Stuart Brock]], 130 Appearances. (July 2004-Present)

:::I think we perhaps need to recognise that a somewhat obsessive approach to demanding references from some editors has led to the rather clumsy style.

*'''Longest Serving Player(s)''' [[Stuart Brock|Stuart Brock]] (2004- Present)

:::I think the content is fair at the moment, we probably need to put a bit of effort into turning it into something more readable and whilst recognising that some people to appear to hobby-horse certain aspects we perhaps need to be more resistant to the clumsiness which results from pandering to that.

** [[Dean Craven|Dean Craven]] (2004-Present)

:::[[User:ALR|ALR]] 17:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Record Signing (Inward):''' [[Lee Moore (footballer)|Lee Moore]] from [[Tamworth_FC|Tamworth]] on 08/12/06 for a fee of £5000.

*'''Record Signing (Outward):''' [[Duane_Courtney|Duane Courtney]] to [[Burnley_F.C.|Burnley]] on 31/08/05 for a fee of about £33,000 along with a sell-on clause.

==External links==

I don't agree on the need for nonstandard format. It spends most of the lead expounding on the precise nature of its secrecy and opinions about it, the sort of discussion that belongs in a section on secrecy in the body. You can give a couple of sentence summary in the lead and thus have room for at least a historical and organizational outline as well as a description of their secrecy. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 17:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

===Official websites===

:Well, then, be [[WP:Bold|bold]] and write it.--[[User:Vidkun|Vidkun]] 17:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

*[http://www.telfordutd.co.uk Official AFC Telford United website]

Also, "Freemasons are proud of their heritage and are happy to share it," sounds peacocky. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 17:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

*[http://www.tust.org Telford United Supporters Ltd]

*[http://www.unibondleague.com/tables.php Unibond League Official Website]

===Unofficial websites===

*[http://www.the-bucks.co.uk The Bucks]

*[http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/sport/telford/index.shtml BBC AFC Telford United]

==Masonic Schooling Link==

*[http://www.shropshirestar.com/sport/clubguides/telford/ Shropshire Star AFC Telford United]

I've deleted the link just posted ([http://www.geoffkirby.freeserve.co.uk/MasonicSchool/ A child's experience at a UK Masonic boarding school in the 1940s]). It's obviously a sad story, but I odn't think it is relevant to the contents of this page. Perhaps it would sit more happily on a page about teh specific school (if such a page exists), or on a more general schooling article. [[User:Hackloon|Hackloon]] 23:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

{{Northern_Premier_League}}

== Just a reminder to all... ==

[[Category:English football clubs|Telford United]]

For those of you who are regular contributors, please check the page history before editing anew. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 00:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[[Category:Northern Premier League|Telford United]]

[[Category:Sport in Shropshire|Telford United]]

[[Category:Football (soccer) clubs established in 2004|AFC_Telford_United]]

[[Category:Co-operatives of the United Kingdom]]

== Best wishes for a happy New Year ==

Fraternally and editorially,

[[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 01:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

== Copywrite issues ==

Please check out "Category:Masonic images"... these seem mostly to be logos of various Masonic organizations and Grand bodies... I have no problems with any of the images except that I am concerned that some of them may be under copywrite (and thus should be deleted). Perhaps we should contact the bodies involved and get permission? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 02:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Logos of organizations can be used as low resolution images to illustrate the organization in question, according to [[Wikipedia:Logos]]. However, there are exceptions, but I don't think these fall into them. Hope that helps :) [[User:Chtirrell|Chtirrell]] 04:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

== Cultural References ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Official_policy_on_.22Cultural_references.22_sections_in_articles This] is an interesting discussion at the Village Pump, on having a "Cultural references" section in articles. The basic idea is to get rid of them. The relevant guideline is [[Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles]] and the Essay [[Wikipedia:Trivia]].

I really don't have a problem with the Cultural References section in this article, although much of it is clearly trivia. However, we ''are'' looking for ways to shorten the article, and cutting the section would be one way to do this. Alternatively, we could keep the section, but trim it ... setting a high standard for what constitutes a "Cultural Reference". Any thoughts? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 13:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:How about trimming it, setting - as you suggest - a high standard, and spin the rest out in to a seperate article? That way we'll avoid trouble with editors reverting to get 'their' favorite bit of trivia in. The trouble off course would be where to put the line... [[User:WegianWarrior|WegianWarrior]] 15:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

::I have no problem with trimming if that is the way people want to go... the point being raised by the discussion at the Pump is that 'trivia' should be cut. I can think of several items listed in the section that I think fall into that category. Basically, I would cut anything where Freemasonry was not central to the reference. Under this idea, things like the Magic Flute would stay (as the opera is majorly influenced by Freemasonry), as would reference to Kipling's "the Man Who Would Be King" (Freemasonry being central to the plot)... while things like the fact that "Frank Ross is buried by members of his lodge in Charles Portis's novel True Grit" or that "There are references to Masonic Ladies' Nights in several of John Mortimer's Rumpole of the Bailey stories" are trivial and should be cut.

::Obviously some of the references will have to be discussed on an individual basis. I will do a first round to get rid of the absolute fluff... if people think I am on the right track we can look at the next level... if people disagree, they can revert me. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 21:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

:::Personally, I sort of enjoy the type of trivia which you removed. I posted my viewpoint to the Village Pump discussion, so I'll just go with whatever the consensus is. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 21:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, on to phase II - Not listing the definite keeps mentioned above, here are the rest... I think they need to be looked at individually:

* ''Pierre Bezhukov, one of the main characters in [[Leo Tolstoy|Leo Tolstoy's]] novel ''[[War and Peace]]'', becomes a Freemason.''

::::I am inclined to keep this as I think Masonry is central to the character's actions and thoughts... but we should probably expand if we do keep.

:::::Agreed with keeping it and also agreed with expanding it with 2 or 3 sentences, at least, though I do not know much of the subject. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''Several references to Freemasonry and its rituals are made in [[Conan Doyle|Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's]] [[Sherlock Holmes]] stories, notably in "[[The Red-Headed League]]" and "[[The Valley of Fear]]". Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was raised a Freemason in [[1887]].''

::::I would love to keep this, but how extensive are the references? If just passing refs, we should cut.

:::::As with Poe, I believe they are only passing references, as are the references in various ''Rumpole'' stories. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 20:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::Agreed and Sir Doyle is already mentioned in the List of Famous Freemasons, so I'm fine with that cut, as well. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''Freemasons feature heavily in [[Robert Shea|Robert Shea's]] and [[Robert Anton Wilson|Robert Anton Wilson's]] satire, "[[The Illuminatus! Trilogy]]".''

::::Anyone know something about this?

:::::I do not. If the Freemasons are indeed a key device within the book, then I'd like to see this included with at least 2-3 sentences worth of info explaining their importance to the literature. A topic on "Freemasonry In Literature" may be helpful. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''[[John Cleese]], and other cast members, [[satire|satirize]] Freemasons in the "How to recognise a Freemason" and "Architect's Sketch" sketches of [[Monty Python's Flying Circus]].''

::::I think this is a definite keep, especially the "how to recognise" sketch, but others may disagree.

:::::While superficially it might seem to fall into Village Pump's "Family Guy" class, in this case it takes on a central role to the skit rather than a passing reference. I'd support keeping it. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''The Freemasons are [[satire|satirized]] in an episode of [[The Simpsons]], titled "[[Homer the Great]]", as [[Stonecutters|The Ancient Society of Stonecutters]], a secret organisation that controls everything from the [[British Crown]] to the [[Academy Awards]].''

::::I would actually keep this one as well.

:::::Agreed for the same reasons as the previous Monty Python sketch. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''[[Foucault's Pendulum (book)|Foucault's Pendulum]] by [[Umberto Eco]] deals with Masonic themes.''

::::I'm not really sure about this one. Masonry is not the central theme, but it is mentioned a fair amount.

:::::If the Freemasons are indeed a key device within the book, then I'd like to see this included with at least 2-3 sentences worth of info explaining their importance to the literature. A topic on "Freemasonry In Literature" may be helpful. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''[[Dan Brown|Dan Brown's]] novels, [[Angels and Demons]], [[The Da Vinci Code]] and [[The Solomon Key]] also draw heavily on supposed Masonic and Christian lore and symbolism.''

::::Angels and Deamons should probably go (very little Freemasonry in it from what I remember). DaVinci Code is iffy (he gets most of it wrong, but does discuss Freemasonry a fair amount), and while I have not read Solomon Key, I gather Freemasonry figures a lot.

:::::DaVinci the movie mentions the word Masonic all of ''once'' in the entire film, so I wonder how plot-central it really is in the book. It may need a qualifiying statement. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 20:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::The DaVinci code book mentions Freemasonry a little bit more than that (but not much more)... mostly in passing, and in the context of being a front for the Priory of Sion (yeah, I know... but). Has Solomon Key even come out yet? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 20:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::::On Angels & Demons, The DaVinci Code, and Solomon Key... as stated above, Brown's first two books really don't talk all that much about Freemasonry except tangentially... and according to [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4929550.stm this] Solomon Key is not out yet (and is actually a regected working title). Given this, I am going to cut the reference. If his new book does center around Freemasonry we can add that when it comes out. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 20:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::While I agree that the DaVinci Code is a piece of <i>fiction</i>, the general populace nonetheless associates its themes with that of Freemasonry. Due to the ongoing popularity of the book and movie, I feel that references to Dan Brown's works should be mentioned and expanded upon as to some of the more prominent truths and/or inaccuracies (though I suspect that in doing so, it may be a slippery slope list of anything and everything right or wrong with the book -- quite possibly leading to controversy and edit wars). --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''The plot of the 2004 movie [[National Treasure (film)|National Treasure]] revolves heavily around the Freemasons and is somewhat unusual in that it depicts them in a benign light.''

::::Sadly, this is a keep... while absolute garbage as far as fact goes, the plot is ''all'' about Freemasons.

:::::Agreed for much the same reason as DaVinci Code. As compared to Dan Brown's works: what this film lacks in popularity, it makes up for in additional references to Freemasonry (be they accurate or not). --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''In [[The Baron in the Trees]] Italian writer [[Italo Calvino]] includes Masonic Lodges branching out into the lands of Ombrosa with the protagonist of the novel, Cosimo di Rondo, mysteriously and supposedly involved with them.''

::::Any idea on this? I have never heard of it.

:::::Neither have I. If the Freemasons are indeed a key device within the book, then I'd like to see this included with at least 2-3 sentences worth of info explaining their importance to the literature. A topic on "Freemasonry In Literature" may be helpful. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''[[Katherine Kurtz]] and Deborah Turner Harris use Freemasonry in their series "The Adept", most notably in "The Adept Book Two: The Lodge of the Lynx", and in Kurtz's [[American Revolution]] [[historical novel]] "Two Crowns for America", which links Freemasonry and [[Jacobitism]].''

::::I don't know about the Adept book, but Freemasonry is indeed central to "Two Crowns". Probably a keep

:::::I am not particularly familiar with any of them. If the Freemasons are indeed a key device within the book, then I'd like to see this included with at least 2-3 sentences worth of info explaining their importance to the literature. A topic on "Freemasonry In Literature" may be helpful. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

* ''[[Brad Meltzer]] discusses Freemasonry in his [[2006]] novel, [[The Book of Fate]].''

::::Anyone read it? I know he puts the Square and Compasses symbol on the front cover, but is Freemasonry central to the book? [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 14:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::I've seen it. As Brad Meltzer is a comics writer, I thought this was actually a book about [[Dr. Fate]] when I saw the title. Our GL librarian has it on display, but apparently it's got nothing really to do with Masonry at all. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 20:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, maybe all the trivial stuff deserves a mention someplace. Maybe save it for another article? It serves to illustrate ''something'', obviously, if so many films and books feel a need to incorporate a reference. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 20:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::If the Freemasons are indeed a key device within the book, then I'd like to see this included with at least 2-3 sentences worth of info explaining their importance to the literature. A topic on "Freemasonry In Literature" may be helpful. I also agree with MSJapan's recommendation to keep all these tidbits within its own ___location, as my posting to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29&diff=98261146&oldid=98248690 Village Pump] discussion indicates. --[[User:Thisisbossi|Thisisbossi]] 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

== Society with secrets ==

Yes, I too have heard this phrase from (former-/) Masons.

:"It is an esoteric society only in that certain aspects are private;[4] Freemasons have stated that Freemasonry has, in the 21st century, become less a secret society and more of a "society with secrets."[5][6][7] "

However, this does set off my BS detector just a little. The Masons have always been a "society with secrets", and this is just a semantic variation on "secret society". They have long publicised their existence, but not their rituals. It was only after the initiation ritual became common knowledge that they have performed it publicly.

--[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] 19:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

::You yourself point out the reasoning behind this language ... while the fraternity may have once been a "secret society" in a traditional sense, they no longer are. The rituals have became common knowledge, their membership rolls are public, their meeting houses are prominent, etc. ... in short it is no longer "secret". Thus the shift from "secret society" (which in todays world has negative, "conspiracy theory" type conotations) to "society with secrets". [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 19:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

== Membership and religion section unclear ==

Specifically:

[2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence] "A wide range of faiths, drawn from the Abrahamic religions, other monotheistic religions, or non-monotheistic religions, (subject to candidates answering Yes to the Supreme Being question), include, for example, Buddhists and Hindus."

What's the point of this sentence? It has an awkward construction and I don't know what it's trying to say. I doubt it's even correct grammatically. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/70.187.32.169|70.187.32.169]] ([[User talk:70.187.32.169|talk]]) 00:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

:I have fixed the section. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 13:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

== Mozart and Freemasonry ==

Masonic Funeral Music, by Mozart, K. 477 - Does it have anything to do with Freemasons?