Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and Miguel Tejada: Difference between pages

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{{Infobox MLB player|
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|key = 4636e7fd80174f8cb324fd91d06d906d
name=Miguel Tejada|
|archive = Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d
image=800px-Miguel_Tejada2.JPG|
width=200|
position=Shortstop|
team=Baltimore Orioles|
number=10|
bats=Right|
throws=Right|
birthdate={{birth date and age|1976|5|25}}|
debutdate=August 27|
debutyear=1997|
debutteam=Oakland Athletics|
statyear=April 21, 2007|
stat1label=[[Batting average]]|
stat1value=.286|
stat2label=[[Home runs]]|
stat2value=241|
stat3label=[[RBI's]]|
stat3value=957|
formerteams=<nowiki></nowiki>
*[[Oakland Athletics]] ([[1997 in baseball|1997]]-[[2003 in baseball|2003]])
}}
'''Miguel Odalis Tejada''' (born [[May 25]], [[1976]]), nicknamed "''Miggy''", is currently the [[shortstop]] of the [[Baltimore Orioles]] [[Major League Baseball]] team.
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{{Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentsHeader}}
 
==Early life==
__NEWSECTIONLINK__
Tejada grew up in extreme poverty in [[Baní]], a city approximately 40 miles southwest of [[Santo Domingo]], capital of the [[Dominican Republic]]. Miguel Tejada grew up idolizing the Baltimore Orioles SS Cal Ripken Jr.
[[Category:Non-talk pages automatically signed by HagermanBot]]
At age 17 his childhood dream of playing professional baseball was realized when he signed with the [[Oakland Athletics]] for $2000.
 
==Oakland A's==
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Tejada developed quickly into a top-notch prospect, showing early signs of power. He reached the majors towards the end of the 1997 season, joining a struggling Oakland Athletics club. Though he only hit .202 in 26 games that year, the A's saw potential in the 21-year-old Tejada and gave him the starting shortstop job beginning in 1998.
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The A's, and Tejada, steadily improved over the next two years. His hitting improved as he gained more discipline at the plate. In 1998, he hit .233 with 11 [[home run]]s and in 1999 his average jumped to .251 with 21 home runs.
== Problem regarding the article OmegaT ==
 
After a solid 87-win campaign in 1999, Tejada and a core of young players led their A's to their first [[American League]] [[Western Division]] title in eight years in 2000. Bolstered by an [[MLB Most Valuable Player Award|American League MVP]]-winning performance by [[first baseman]] [[Jason Giambi]], and aided by Tejada's .275 average and 30 home runs, the A's won 91 games. The A's faced the [[New York Yankees]] in the first round of the postseason, which was won by the Yankees 3-2 in Oakland. The Yankees would go on to win the [[World Series]] that year, their fourth championship in five years.
On April 1st 00.22 Tokyo time I send a mail to info-en-c@wikipedia.org regarding registered trademark infringement by a Wikipedia author.
 
In 2001, Tejada had a comparable offensive year, hitting .267 with 31 homers. The A's captured the American League [[wild card (sports)|wild card]] with a 102-60 record. In the postseason, however, the A's fell to the Yankees in five games, blowing an initial 2-0 series lead.
The ticket number is [Ticket#2007033110014917].
 
Tejada's breakout year came in 2002. With the departure of Jason Giambi to the New York Yankees during the offseason, and a leg injury to slugger [[Jermaine Dye]], the A's lost two of their key offensive players. Tejada hit .308 with 34 homers and led the A's to their second Western Division title in three years. Their campaign included an American League record 20 game win-streak. Tejada contributed one-out, game-winning hits in the 18th and 19th games of that run: a three-run homer off [[Minnesota Twins]] closer Eddie Guardado for a 7-5 victory and a bases-loaded single against [[Kansas City Royals]] reliever Jason Grimsley to break a 6-6 tie. Tejada also showed modest speed on the basepaths with 18 steals over a two-year stretch. His performance was rewarded with the 2002 American League MVP award. For the third straight year, though, the A's fell in the fifth game of the ALDS, this time to the [[Minnesota Twins]].
I was first replied to by Mr. Benn Newman who suggested that I follow the procedures proposed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. I read the page and considered that most of its contents was not relevant and replied with a request for more information since our case seemed to not be addressed there.
 
The next year, both the A's and Tejada got off to a slow start, with the shortstop hitting under [[Mendoza line|.200]] for the first month of the season. Improved play in the second half of the season led the A's to their second straight Western Division title and their third in four years. Tejada hit .278 with 27 homers for the year, a decrease from his numbers in 2002, but still leading many offensive categories for shortstops.
I received then a reply by Mr. Guy Chapman who told me he had considered my request and 1) removed the conflicting article and 2) banned the user "laseray".
 
In a tension-filled series, the powerful offense of the [[Boston Red Sox]] narrowly edged out the A's in the first round, once again in five games. Tejada was known for his public display of anger toward Boston starting pitcher [[Derek Lowe]] at the series' conclusion for what he perceived as obscene gestures. Lowe denied the accusation, claiming his fist pump was in celebration only.
Following that, the user laseray used an unregistered IP resolving to vandalize the OmegaT page and to remove references to OmegaT in other related pages.
 
By the end of the 2003 season, Tejada had established himself as one of baseball's premier shortstops. The A's elected not to resign the free agent, citing budget concerns and a young [[Bobby Crosby]] coming through the system, so Tejada signed a six-year, $72 million deal with the Baltimore Orioles during the offseason.
see 216.252.81.89 on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Computer-assisted_translation&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=OmegaT&action=history
 
As an Oriole, Tejada follows in the footsteps of legendary Baltimore shortstop [[Cal Ripken Jr.]]. Like Ripken, Tejada is a strong and durable shortstop with unusual power numbers for a middle infielder. Ripken currently holds baseball's record for consecutive games played at 2,632. Tejada played in his 1,000th [[MLB consecutive games played streaks|consecutive game]] on July 1, 2006--currently the seventh-longest streak of all-time. As of the end of the 2006 season, Tejada's streak stood at 1,080 games. Were he not to miss a game, he would approach Ripken's record in [[2016]]. Tejada has repeatedly asserted that he is not interested in breaking Ripken's record.
We know that it is highly probable that it is him since the IP resolves to a ___domain he advertises as using on other sites:
http://www.proz.com/post/543150 (Proz is a site for professional translators).
His profile page is at:
http://www.proz.com/profile/649046
 
Some say Miguel Tejada is the best offensive shortstop in Major League Baseball, a claim well supported by his statistics. Teammate [[Brian Roberts]] told [[Peter Gammons]] that Tejada is the best player in the game because, "He has an uncanny ability to knock in runs ... his energy. He is always up, pushing everyone and making the entire team better." Orioles' hitting instructor Terry Crowley said, "This franchise changed the day he arrived."
where he indicates he uses the colba.net server, the same name than the one to which the IP 216.252.81.89 resolves.
 
During the offseason, Tejada resides in the Dominican Republic with his wife, Alessandra, his daughter, Alexa, and his son, Miguel Jr.
For a little background information, OmegaT is one of the few existing free (GPL) software to help translators. It is developped by a team of volunteers of which the Wikipedia user "laseray" (Raymond Martin) was a member from the automn of 2004 to the spring of 2005 when he left after upsetting pretty much everybody in the team. He went on to create his fork and since then never ceased to arrass us. We were forced to register the "OmegaT" trademark and started to request that our right to that name be enforced in various places on the web of which Wikipedia is one.
 
[[Image:Tejada_press.jpg|thumb|250px|left|Miguel Tejada talks to reporter Kelli Johnson 2005.]][[Image:Tejada.jpg|thumb|right|Tejada at the 2004 Home Run Derby]]
Currently, all the IP that resolve to colva.net that do edits on computer aided translation related pages (translation memory etc) are used by people to falsify information concerning OmegaT, althought it is highly probable that all the edits are made by one and the same person: Mr. Raymond Martin. It is starting to take a significant amount of time to maintain the pages, where, out of honesty, we even added information related to Mr. Martin's fork.
 
On [[July 12]], [[2004]], Tejada won the [[Century 21]] [[Home Run Derby]] in [[Houston]]. Tejada hit a record 27 [[home runs]] in the contest, with a record 15 homers in the second round. He defeated [[Houston Astros]] outfielder [[Lance Berkman]] 5-4 in the final round of the contest. Both records were broken the following year in [[Detroit]] by [[Bobby Abreu]].
We are currently at loss and would like to know what is possible to do. We do not want to have the page locked because there are a number of contributors to that page who would be harmed by that process but we would like to know how to deal with such savage vandalism.
 
Tejada led the league with 150 RBI's in 2004.
Thank you in advance for your time.
 
While Tejada did not participate in the Home Run Derby in [[2005]], he was an [[2005 Major League Baseball All-Star Game|All-Star]] and starter for the [[American League|AL]]. In his first All-Star start, Tejada hit a solo [[home run]] against [[John Smoltz]] of the [[Atlanta Braves]], had a sacrifice RBI and was part of an all-Oriole double play with teammate [[Brian Roberts]]. His efforts earned him the [[Major League Baseball All-Star Game|All-Star MVP]], winning a [[Chevrolet Corvette]].
Jean-Christophe Helary (Jc_helary)
 
On [[December 8]], [[2005]], it was widely reported by the [[Associated Press]] that Tejada asked the Orioles for a trade, citing unhappiness with the team's direction. Tejada challenged those statements in an interview with [[Comcast]] Sportsnet's Kelli Johnson, saying he only asked for a better team, referring to his hope that the Baltimore Orioles would improve after their eighth straight losing season.
== [[User:Coelacan]] and [[User:Alison]]'s repeated harrassment of [[User:PatPeter]] ==
 
Several weeks later, Tejada reiterated his complaints with the Orioles' lack of action and demanded to be traded, sparking immediate rumors of a trade to the [[Boston Red Sox]] for pitcher [[Matt Clement]] and outfielder [[Manny Ramirez]]. Tejada stated that he wants a "good group that helps me to win" and commented briefly on his alleged non-involvement in Palmeiro's steroid scandal.
These two users have bombarded me with more posts than humanly possible to answer, they continue to harrass me, give me not even the time to reply resulting in edit conflicts, talk about me behind my back on as many other pages as they can, please someone please help I cannot explain my actions to every post, watch I bet you anything that one of them will delete this post, someone please '''help me'''. -[[User:PatPeter|'''Pat''']][[User talk:PatPeter|'''Peter''']] 18:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:I assume this is somehow related to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:PatPeter and Category:User templates and subcat tree|this]].--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::I have checked your userpage and the above AN/I report and can see no evidence of harrassment whatsoever, beyond Coelecan, Alison, and WJBscribe telling you that your actions rearding wikiprojects in userspace and random campaigns against categories are inappropriate. Being repeatedly edit conflicted is not a policy violation. Could you support your allegations with diffs please? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 18:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::Agree with [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (I was just reviewing the reporter's usertalkpage as well) and I don't see anything from [[User:Alison]] and just a few posts from [[User:Coelacan]] in regards to the fact that [[User:PatPeter]] edited another editors's userpage userboxes.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
*How can I reply to all the posts that they have made about me? It is like they are recruiting an army against me. I will try to find every point where they have '''bombarded''' me. -[[User:PatPeter|'''Pat''']][[User talk:PatPeter|'''Peter''']] 18:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
**Perhaps you should think about ''why'' they are bombarding you instead of merely shouting out "conspiracy!" Of course, I'm just being figurative, but disputes are a two-way street. —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 18:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
===Evidence===
*[[User talk:PatPeter#Subpages]] - They sneak in remarks under other replys, I have no clue which are new, which are old, etc.
*[[User talk:The Boy that time forgot#Wikipedia:Wikiproject Source to Short]] - Why would I check this? You can see how coelacan is directing yet another user to hate me.
*[[User talk:Coelacan#Subpages]] - now they are calling me sinister
*[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:PatPeter and Category:User templates and subcat tree]] - I just found out today that this has been going on.
And as much as I would like to take the time to find the diffs and more pages, I have other things to do. -[[User:PatPeter|'''Pat''']][[User talk:PatPeter|'''Peter''']] 19:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::PatPeter, regarding your concerns: 1) replying in a non-linear fashion is a common way to do things here. I am not trying to "sneak" anything anywhere, but rather to put comments where it is obvious what I am replying to. 2) I left a note to [[User:The Boy that time forgot|The Boy that time forgot]] to tell him that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Boy_that_time_forgot&diff=next&oldid=120557250 your requests] were not policy and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Boy_that_time_forgot&diff=120595620&oldid=120589229 not something he needed to act on,] because you made it appear that they were. 3) That user asked me if I thought there was something sinister in your actions, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Boy_that_time_forgot&diff=120606119&oldid=120603278 I replied] that I thought not, that your actions were rather well intended but heavy handed; you act in good faith, but with biting. 4) Blast San began the above thread on this page because of a legitimate concern about your actions and more biting. No one is out to get you, but this page needs to be a place where people can bring issues that they feel might need administrator intervention. They don't always ''need'' administrator intervention, but it's better that there is a place to raise concerns, just in case.
::Now, my discussion with Alison amounts to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alison&diff=120612739&oldid=120576124 us] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alison&diff=120613583&oldid=120612739 agreeing] that you have good intentions and poor execution. If you are upset about this discussion, I'm sorry to hear that, but it is necessary sometimes for editors to discuss other people's actions. You respond, yet again, by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Boy_that_time_forgot&diff=120783200&oldid=120614402 saying that we are trying to discredit you], in a way that suggests you are very stressed. We are not, and I personally am troubled by your reaction. Perhaps you could benefit from a [[Wikipedia:Wikibreak|wikibreak]]. I am trying to do some damage control around some of the pages you've used lately, but I want Wikipedia to be a place you can enjoy spending your time.
::Finally, I have to wonder, how do I tell you that I think your [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Source to Short]] and [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Category Cleanup]] need to go to [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion]], without you taking this personally? I don't think you're a bad person, but I do think these particular ideas are ill-conceived, and full of [[WP:CREEP|instruction creep]]. <span style="white-space: nowrap">— [[User:Coelacan|coe<span style="font-variant: small-caps">l</span>]][[User talk:Coelacan|acan]]</span> — 19:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Rumors went around in early 2006 that Tejada might be traded to the Red Sox or Cubs. But on [[January 7]], [[2006 in baseball|2006]], Tejada stated his intent to remain with Baltimore for "the rest of [his] career." This statement was made to Orioles Vice President [[Jim Duquette]] in a meeting arranged by mutual friend and teammate [[Melvin Mora]].
:Well, I've invesigated this thoroughly now, and the conclusion I've come to is you are a misguided editor who means well but doesn't really get what we're like at Wikipedia (I won't comment on the separate issue I found of your campaign against gay categories, which I suspect is why so many members of [[WP:LGBT]] are involved in this). Your main objection seems to be that people are replying to your comments with indents, a typical practice here to enable people to follow discussions, whereas you want them to use section headings and line dividers. The message Coelcan originally left on TBTTF's page didn't mention you at all by name, and was correcting misinformation ''you'' had sent him. TBTTF called your actions sinister - by contrast, you have accused him and Coel of bombaridng you and conspriing aainst you, as well as telling Coelacan and Alison to "shut up". Finally, while it may have been polite to inform you you were mentioned on AN/I, they were certainly not obliged to do so.
 
==[[Rafael Palmeiro]]==
:Basically, you have been pushing your own interpretation of the rules, editing other people's userpages (a BIG no-no here) and quoting a redirect ([[WP:StS]]) which leads to your own userspace. When Coelacan, as well as several other editors by now, not unsurprisingly informed you that this wasn't allowed on Wkipedia, you got defensive and started arguing incivilly and shouting "conspiracy" anywhere you could. Dude, you made a simple mistake but blew it out of all proportion. Accept that and go edit. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 19:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
On [[September 22]], [[2005]], [[ESPN]] reported that [[Rafael Palmeiro]], who had tested positive for steroids and was suspended for 10 games under Major League Baseball's steroid policy, implicated Tejada to baseball's arbitration panel, suggesting that a supplement given to him by Tejada was responsible for the steroid entering his system. Tejada has denied the allegations<ref>{{cite news | url = http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2169007 | title = Palmeiro named Tejada before panel | publisher = [[ESPN]] | date = [[2005-09-23]] | accessdate = 2006-10-04 }}</ref>, saying that the only thing he gave Palmeiro was vitamin B-12, a completely legal substance under current MLB policy.
::Dev, the [[WP:StS]] page is ''now'' in Wikipedia namespace, without the misleading title override. That's better. It just means now that the community needs to evaluate whether we ''want'' it in Wikipedia namespace. <span style="white-space: nowrap">— [[User:Coelacan|coe<span style="font-variant: small-caps">l</span>]][[User talk:Coelacan|acan]]</span> — 19:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I assume you mean whether such a project should exist at all (I have no opinion on the matter). —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 19:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::I essentially agree with Dev920's assessment. From [[User:PatPeter|PatPeter's]] talkpage and some of the "rules" and requests for things not to move forward without him, I'd say he doesn't fully get how things work here at Wikipedia. That seems to be the root of the problem more than anything Alison or Coelacan have done here.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 19:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Yes, Physicq, that's what I meant. <span style="white-space: nowrap">— [[User:Coelacan|coe<span style="font-variant: small-caps">l</span>]][[User talk:Coelacan|acan]]</span> — 20:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
On [[September 24]], [[2005]], The [[Baltimore Sun]] reported that "''The Health Policy Advisory Committee, which oversees baseball's testing policy, issued a statement that exonerated Tejada and chastised the media for reporting that he might have distributed steroids to another player.''"[http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.palmeiro24sep24,1,3325405.story?coll=bal-home-headlines:Cite_Sources]
=== It takes two to tango ===
* Your complaint is not clear.
# What did you do?
# What did they do?
# When did this incident begin?
# Have you warned them?
# Have they warned you?
# What in your opinion needs to take place to correct the incident?
Your explaining an unclear one-sided version. I've looked at this and its not clear what if anything happened. --[[User:Knowpedia|Masterpedia]] 19:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
In [[José Canseco]]'s book, ''[[Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits & How Baseball Got Big]]'', he mentions that he believes Tejada might have taken steroids. He claims to have spoken to him about them and the next season seeing him at spring training looking more defined. He never claims to have injected him with them, like he did with Palmeiro, McGwire and other ballplayers.
=== Suicide ===
PatPeter has put up notices on his userpage and talk that he intends to commit suicide shortly. Do we have a specific policy to deal with userpages of known deceased Wikipedians? Would it be appropriate to delete or blank the page, or maybe create a tasteful template for these eventualities? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Not a clue as to what to do here with the userpage. Any ideas, anyone? [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 20:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::My idea involves someone with checkuser access contacting Oregon State University and trying to help them figure out which one of their students is planning suicide, before it happens. Thoughts? <span style="white-space: nowrap">— [[User:Coelacan|coe<span style="font-variant: small-caps">l</span>]][[User talk:Coelacan|acan]]</span> — 20:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Why do they need checkuser access? Call the uni and tell them to look for a Patrick Peter who's a talented musician. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Actually, he appears to still be in high school. So call the high school and ask for a boy, possibly called Patrick, who is studying Latin and Western Civilisation. Can't be that many of them. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::His userpage says he's against suicide prevention (or was it intervention?), so I think that would be a gross invasion of privacy, unfortunately. My personal opinion (harsh though it may be, sorry if I offend anybody) is that threatening suicide on an anonymous internet messageboard is the worst form of emotional blackmail. People who really want help should seek it somewhere accessible. [[User:Anchoress|Anchoress]] 20:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Ideals are very nice, up till a point. Hoax or no hoax, it is better to be safe than sorry. Somebody'd better make a call. [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 20:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Somebody has threatened suicide and you're planning what template to affix to their page when they're dead?! Are you serious?
:What did we do last time? Handed it over to the office I think? --[[User:Kingboyk|kingboyk]] 20:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)
::The template isn't for suicides, it's for all dead Wikipedians. This guy's threat raises an issue I don't believe we have addressed yet - what to do with the userpage of a deceased Wikipedian? My proposal wasn't lighthearted, but I'll go propose it at the bottom of the page instead of here. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Why checkuser? If you know the educational establishment, why can't anyone do this? Having said that, judging by the userpage, shouldn't the place to contact be [[Marist High School (Illinois)]]? [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 20:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
* I think the guy should be left alone on that count. His userboxes suggest he has issues with depression and, as someone who's acquainted with both matters, I suggest we be as sympathetic and kind as possible. As I said on [[WP:AN]] yesterday, even jokey suicide messages often have an underlying something to them - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 20:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
**Oh no. Not Freud... —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 20:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
***This shouldn't be taken lightly, but this guy hates suicide intervention and talking to him would just make things worse. Tread lightly. <small>{[[User:PullToOpen|PTO]]} {[[User talk:PullToOpen|speak]]}</small> 20:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
*** Seriously. It's not funny. Been there, tried that - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 20:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
****Look, I might be harsh, but we're not here to be intimidated. I'm not saying take a laissez-faire approach, but threatening suicide to get one's way (whether true or not) is the most despicable form of blackmail and the most abhorrent form of morality. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not therapy|Wikipedia is not therapy]]. —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 20:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
*****Yep, agreed with that. We simply can't be intimidated in this matter. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 21:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Who's saying we need to let PatPeter create his strange rules? Aren't we discussing whether to contact his school to get him help? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 21:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::I'm not being intimidated by the guy. I'm just concerned right now that he's okay. I notice that he's been putting up and taking down his suicide message over the last few days or so. He's obviously not in a good place right now - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 22:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:We're here to create an encyclopedia anyone can read or edit. If there is someone involved in this discussion who believes that getting involved in this editor's personal RL drama (or suffering if drama is too pejorative) will further that goal, then that person should do so. [[User:Anchoress|Anchoress]] 21:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
On [[September 30]], [[2006]] the ''[[Los Angeles Times]]'' reported that former relief pitcher [[Jason Grimsley]], during a [[June 6]], 2006 federal raid, told federal agents investigating steroids in baseball named Tejada as a user of "[[anabolic steroids]]." The ''Times'' reported that Tejada was one of five names blacked out in an affidavit filed in federal court.<ref>{{cite news
This isn't about being a Wikipedian. It's about being decent human beings. <span style="font-size:95%">&mdash;[[User talk:Messedrocker|Signed]], your friendly neighborhood '''[[User:Messedrocker|MessedRocker]]'''.</span> 21:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
|url=http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clemens1oct01,0,6499528.story?coll=la-home-headlines
:You can be a decent human being by going and doing whatever your conscience dictates. But that doesn't require discussion on the AN. Anyone can send this user an email, leave a message on her/his talkpage, or track down some RL help. [[User:Anchoress|Anchoress]] 22:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
|title=Clemens Is Named in Drug Affidavit
|last=Pugmire
|first=Lance
|accessdate=2006-10-01
|date=[[2006-10-01]]
|publisher=[[Los Angeles Times]]
}}</ref> However, on [[October 3]], 2006, the ''[[Washington Post]]'' reported that [[San Francisco]] United States attorney Kevin Ryan said that the ''Los Angeles Times'' report contained "significant inaccuracies."<ref name = WashingtonPost>
{{cite news
| url = http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/02/AR2006100201054.html
| title = U.S. Attorney Says Report Alleging Drug Use Contains 'Inaccuracies'
| publisher = [[Washington Post]]
| page = E02
| date = [[2006-10-03]]
| accessdate = 2006-10-04
}}</ref> Tejada, along with the other four players named, has denounced the story.<ref name = WashingtonPost/>
How dare Raffy ever say that of a teammate of Tejada's greatness!!
 
== References ==
I am respectfully requesting that anyone with the needed authority takes immediate action to share relevant information with appropriate authorities to protect this user. If you have this authority and do not feel that this action is correct please review this immediately with anyone available with higher authority. Thank you. [[User:71.82.88.117|71.82.88.117]] 04:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC) I did not take the time to sign in before. [[User:Edivorce|Edivorce]] 04:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
<!--See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags-->
<references />
 
{{start box}}
Change the user page to "[[I told you I was hardcore]]." [[User:Vodak|Vodak]] 13:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
{{succession box | before = [[Ichiro Suzuki]] | title = [[MLB Most Valuable Player award|American League Most Valuable Player]]| years = [[2002 in baseball|2002]] | after = [[Alex Rodriguez]]}}
{{succession box | before = [[Garret Anderson]] | title = [[Home Run Derby|Home Run Derby Champion]]| years = [[2004]] | after = [[Bobby Abreu]]}}
{{succession box | title=[[List of Major League Baseball RBI champions|American League RBI Champion]] | before=[[Carlos Delgado]] | years=[[2004]]| after= [[David Ortiz]]}}
{{succession box | title=[[Major League Baseball All-Star Game]]<br> Most Valuable Player| before= [[Alfonso Soriano]] | years=2005| after= [[Michael Young (baseball player)|Michael Young]]}}
{{end box}}
 
==See also==
===Comments from [[User:Alison]]===
*[[MLB consecutive games played streaks]]
*[[List of players from Dominican Republic in Major League Baseball]]
 
==External links==
Hi all. I just found out about this now, sorry for the delay.
*[http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Tejada/Tejada_bio.html In-depth biography]
*{{baseball-reference|id=t/tejadmi01}}
*{{espn mlb|id=5888|name=Miquel Tejada}}
*[http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=123173 MLB.com profile]
 
[[Category:American League All-Stars|Tejada, Miguel]]
Ok, the first time I encountered [[User:PatPeter|PatPeter]] was on Coel's talk page where he made this comment[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Coelacan&diff=prev&oldid=120376578] re. title overrides. I replied with a gentle reminder of AGF[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Coelacan&diff=120378845&oldid=120376578]. In return, I got this message[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alison&diff=120399369&oldid=120377762] from PatPeter. I replied here[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alison&diff=next&oldid=120399369].
[[Category:American League RBI champions|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Baltimore Orioles players|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Oakland Athletics players|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Major league shortstops|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Dominican Republic baseball players|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:1976 births|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Living people|Tejada, Miguel]]
[[Category:Major League Baseball All-Star Game MVPs|Tejada, Miguel]]
 
[[es:Miguel Tejada]]
I then found out that PatPeter was using WP shortcuts in an unorthodox manner (and with the whole override thing) and this concerned me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Coelacan&diff=120402922&oldid=120402062]. I brought the matter up on [[WP:AN]] [[WP:AN#Policy_re._use_of_Wikipedia_shortcuts.3F|here]] without mentioning the editor's name. I wanted advice, not more eyes at that point. There, I found out that the editor was already mentioned on ANI [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive222#User:PatPeter_is_making_disruptive_edits_to_many_userboxes here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:PatPeter_and_Category:User_templates_and_subcat_tree here]. I found out that PatPeter had put [[:Category:Cub Wikipedians]] on CfD [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_4#Category:Cub_Wikipedians here]. As you can see, I commented there but recommended that the CfD stay open until PatPeter returned. As it was ruled that PatPeter orphaned the category himself and previously tried to have it speedied, the CfD was closed anyway. PatPeter posted another CfD the next day [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_5#Category:Cub_Wikipedians] which I decided to keep out of in the interests of civility other than asking one question. His response let me know! This eventually got closed for being inappropriate to CfD (should be [[WP:UCFD]]).
[[ja:ミゲル・テハダ]]
 
I'd like to point out that I *am* a member of [[WP:LGBT]], as it happens, but hadn't made the connection until now. User PatPeter has an "Anti-Gay" userbox on his page which I find offensive. It was speedied for [[WP:CSD#T1]] by another admin and immediately re-created by PatPeter, with a snippy comment on the userbox page. I have left it alone other than commenting on someone's talk page that I approved of their T1 deletion decision.
 
Since then, I've been largely trying to keep out of the guy's way. I did comment on PatPeter's [[WP:RFD]] [[Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_5#WP:CGC_.E2.86.92_User:PatPeter.2FWikiproject:Category_Cleanup|here]] where I suggested deletion because of their misuse to-date. As you can see, I offered to help the guy with his WikiProjects and explained about the contrib log function. Like I said, I've tried to keep away but he's been posting on my talk page again this morning. I replied and asked him why he was bringing up the AGF thing again.
 
I have no doubt that PatPeter is editing in good faith and means well for the project however, I have certain issues with his approach around [[WP:BITE]] and how he's handling edits to other people's userpages. I'd rather help the guy than get into a battle with him as this is in nobody's interests - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 20:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===Email sent to school===
 
I may be out of my league here, but just to be bold in a non-wiki kind of way, I sent an email on behalf of myself and only myself to the school's counselor. For the benefit of all, I've reproduced it here:
 
Sorry if this is the wrong person to email about this, but I did not see another Department thats apt for it. Im a user of the http://www.wikipedia.org website, and it has recently come to my and others attention that a user on the site, who is a high school student and spends a lot of time editing the article on your school, has make public notices that he intends to commit suicide. The user in question goes by the name PatPeters, leading me to suspect the student is named Patrick Peters or something close to it. The public notices can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:PatPeter&oldid=120797540 and at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PatPeter&oldid=120797919 and there is a discussion coing on among the major contributors at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Suicide
 
The only other information that seems to be useful to you is that he has expressed a paticular interest in Latin and Western Civilization as well as claiming to be a talented musician.
 
Thank you for your help, if I can be of further assistance, just let me know.
 
-<name redacted>
 
-<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:edit: it was sent to
Guidance Staff
Bro. Vito Aresto, FMS - Department Chair
aresto.vito@marist.net -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:I don't think that was out of line, and it's probably better than unending debate about whether or not to get in touch with anyone. [[User:Natalie Erin|Natalie]] 21:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm.... just realized I outed my name too, but I really dont care too much about that. -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::Name redacted from above. See [[WP:OVERSIGHT]] if you want it removed from the page history. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 21:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:::naw, like I said, I dont care too much. Brandt allready has it. -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Let's hope Mr Brandt doesn't see this, you'll be on his website next :) More seriously, I think that's fine. Not sure there's too much more we can do bar a possible phone call to someone. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 21:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::He already had it. He sent me a message, and just to prove not everyone was as batshit crazy as him, I sent him my name, birthdate, hometown and a picture. Take a look at our correspondance at [[User:AKMask/Brandt]]. -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Better safe than sorry. Even if it is just a namby-pamby boo-hoo for attention, the last thing we need is for this kid to kill himself and then have the press descend upon us with stories of "Wikipedia Administration Did Nothing As User Follows Through With Threat Of Suicide." --[[User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson|Jeffrey O. Gustafson]] - ''[[User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson/Shazaam|Shazaam!]]'' - [[User_Talk:Jeffrey O. Gustafson|&lt;*&gt;]] 21:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Contact the Foundation, maybe? After that it's all really out of our hands. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 21:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I have also contacted the school to provide additional information found on his userpage - the fact that he is on the school math team and takes Latin must narrow down the search considerably. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 21:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
:Forward a copy to cbass (at) wikimedia (dot) org as well, with a short explanation, to keep them abrest of what people send out. -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 21:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
::Done. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 22:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 
'''It's easter friday''' The school will be closed. Contact the local police. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] 00:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
* Can someone volunteer to do that and reply here? - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 00:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
**Is there anyone IN CHICAGO who can call 3-1-1 and report it to Chicago PD there? I've spent 10 min looking on their website for an externally accessible number and I haven't found anything useful. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 01:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
***I am aware of Bro. Aresto since I am catholic and have friends in the Chicago area. I will forward that email to the Provincial Office of the Marist Brothers (email: info@maristbr.org) and let them know. They should be able to contact Br. Aresto over the weekend. [[User:Tmalmjursson|Thor Malmjursson]] 01:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
****This is not a "email someone" situation; please try and call in to Chicago PD. I just found and tried a 312-747-6000 contact number for Chicago PD but it hangs up when I reach it, seems broken. Anyone in the Chicago area, please make the local 3-1-1 call... (And then report doing so here so they don't get 10 calls...) [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 01:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
**I am aware its not an email someone situation. I thought to try and get hold of Br. Aresto a bit faster than mailing the school and waiting till Tuesday. Anyone who can 311 Chicago PD go ahead and do it. [[User:Tmalmjursson|Thor Malmjursson]] 01:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
***** According to [http://www.kcb.org/kcb_dir_cityofchicago.html] '''(312) 744-5501''' is the right number? I live in the UK so I don't know how American numbers work. I would try it myself but I have no credit on my phone for long distance calls and have no idea how to call abroad anyways. [[User:Veesicle|Veesicle]]<small> ([[User_Talk:Veesicle|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Veesicle|Contribs]])</small> 01:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
******Tried it. The source does say that's who it is, but it turns out to be the scheduling assistant for Chicago's mayor, not the Police Department. Everyone keep looking if you can help... [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 01:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
*******According to that source you could try '''(312) 744-5000''' which appears to be a 24 hour emergency number. [[User:Veesicle|Veesicle]]<small> ([[User_Talk:Veesicle|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Veesicle|Contribs]])</small> 01:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
******** And failing that, contacting just about any public department in Chicago and explaining what you need might work as they could point you in the right direction. [[User:Veesicle|Veesicle]]<small> ([[User_Talk:Veesicle|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Veesicle|Contribs]])</small> 01:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
The number is (312) 746-6000 or one of the other numbers listed [http://www.chicagopolice.org/contact.asp here]. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 01:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: That's what Information told me, too, but [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] just tried it and it doesn't work. He's pursuing another lead... —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 02:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:: Status update: (312) 744-5000 worked to get their emergency operations center, who sent me to the police communications center. Who politely declined to take a report, and instead asked me to call my local PD and have them send an electronic report to Chicago PD. *beating head on door*. So I'm doing that. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 02:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:If all else fails, maybe try the 3-1-1 or 9-1-1? But they're emergency numbers... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''''KZ'''''</font>]][[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<sup><small><font color= "green">''' Talk '''</font></small></sup>]] <sup>•</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|<sup><small>Contribs</small></sup>]] 02:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::Those only work if you're in the same city as the problem. Otherwise you get your local police department. Which is what I ultimately did, but they haven't finished getting the report info to forward to Chicago. This is bizarrely difficult. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 02:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::There should be someone around here who lives in Chicago... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''''KZ'''''</font>]][[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<sup><small><font color= "green">''' Talk '''</font></small></sup>]] <sup>•</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|<sup><small>Contribs</small></sup>]] 02:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
[[User:Danny|Danny]]'s contacted his local police and they are on the way to his ___location... anyone knowing anything should go to the #patpeter IRC channel. —<b>[[User:Pilotguy|Pilot]]<font color="#00FFFF">[[User:Pilotguy|guy]]</font> <small>[[User_talk:Pilotguy|cleared for takeoff]]</small></b> 02:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I dealt with a suicide note in December, looked up the IP address, and contacted the Pennsylvania state police. It took the dispatcher a moment to understand why I was calling but once he caught on it was straightforward and businesslike: I advised him to forward the IP address to his tech department to determine the street address and supplied instructions for how he could confirm the information I was reporting. A suicide note is one of the very few situations where I think that sort of action is not only justified, I'd regret if I hadn't followed through. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 02:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Okay... Danny's police is forwarding the information to the Chicago PD, and they'll try to find him there. —<b>[[User:Pilotguy|Pilot]]<font color="#00FFFF">[[User:Pilotguy|guy]]</font> <small>[[User_talk:Pilotguy|cleared for takeoff]]</small></b> 02:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I heard the police came and have filed a report, hope Danny will update us all soon on this page. [[User:Salaskan|Salaskan]] 03:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Okay. The local police were at my apartment, and they have promised to send all the information I gave them to the Chicago police department. That is about all we can do right now, but if anything else pops up, please contact me and I will relay the information. Thank you to everyone for helping with this. You may have saved someone's life. [[User:Danny|Danny]] 03:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Right after Danny posted, I got a callback for my local PD to take my report; at this point, since Danny's is on the way, we both agreed that it seemed like that was good enough and we left it at that. I would also like to thank everyone who helped. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 03:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Awww...I'm too late. I was busy when Veesicle contacted me...thus, I never received the message. Gosh, I'm so sorry guys. I would have been able to get the information in sooner. :( '''''[[User:Ed|<font color="blue" face="comic sans ms">Ed</font>]]''''' <sup>[[User talk:Ed|<font color="maroon" face="comic sans ms">¿Cómo estás?</font>]]</sup> 04:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:Would we be better off if we had a policy for these things? If so, I think that I'm going to be bold and create a policy page for this...--'''''[[User:Ed|<font color="blue" face="comic sans ms">Ed</font>]]''''' <sup>[[User talk:Ed|<font color="maroon" face="comic sans ms">¿Cómo estás?</font>]]</sup> 04:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_common_sense :) [[User:El hombre de haha|El hombre de haha]] 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
He's editing again, so presumably he's still alive. His IP is [[User:67.167.255.36|67.167.255.36]], and he's now saying "PatPeter is currently sleeping and will be for 8-10 hours, or the rest of eternity." on his talk page, so I guess the cops didn't get to him yet either. --[[User talk:Rory096|Rory096]] 05:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
* He's logged into his account right now. Someone should leave a message on his talk page, let him know we're all concerned for him & offer what help we can - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 05:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Wouldn't it be a wild goose chase if his name isn't Patrick Peter... The "rest of eternity" part doesn't sound too comforting either. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 05:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:There's a good chance he/she (Pat could mean Patricia) is just being dramatic, however on the off chance that anyone is stupid enough to end their lives perhaps a fellow [[Catholic]] should jump in there and explain why that's not a good idea. I'm agnostic, so I could be wrong, but doesn't that guarantee one a straight ticket to [[hell]]? If there really is a hell, killing oneself in order to improve their situation is a pretty big mistake. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 07:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Never heard of a girl named Patricia calling herself "Pat"... I doubt the person will take [[hell|that]] into account...I didn't even think about it till you mentioned it. But its worth a try if we have a volunteer... Oh and I nearly forgot...how coincidental that you [[Easter|mentioned it]] today. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 07:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Many females have used "Pat". [[Patricia Kennedy Lawford|Pat Kennedy]] did. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 07:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Proven wrong. Yet again.... Well at least I know something about [[John Fitzgerald Kennedy|JFK]]'s sister now.... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 07:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Don't feel bad, my original reason for pointing it out was that SNL character "Pat". Later I realized I have an Aunt who goes by Pat. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 07:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Are there any editors who claim/have Catholic credentials and if unknown what would be the best way to search? I really would mention my point to the editor directly, but I can't even tell you where in the Bible it says that (plus if he decides I'm right in my beliefs he could decide to roll the dice). [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 08:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::From my recollection of the bible, I don't think that it actually states that suicide is a one way path to hell, but people simply ''assume'' that it is... But then again, I am Protestant and maybe they have different interpretations? --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 08:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC):
:::The [[Catechism of the Catholic Church|Catechism]] lists suicide as a [[mortal sin]], and if you do without confessing a mortal sin you get a one-way ticket to hell - kinda difficult to confess suicide... [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 10:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Wikipedia does not give theological advice to suicidal teenagers. This is a Bad Idea. <font color="blue">-[[User:Wooty|'''Wo''']][[User:Wooty/b|'''''o''''']][[User:Wooty/Avoid presenting Wikipedia as anything but an encyclopedia|'''ty''']]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Wooty|'''Woot?''']]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Wooty|'''contribs''']]</small></font> 20:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Why? Like I said before there is a big chance this is just drama, if it isn't what would you have us do? I realize this isn't exactly a [[Brandon Vedas]] situation, but it seems to me if we do nothing it could make Wikipedia look bad. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 23:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I'm not saying nothing should be done, but it is way out of our league to try to convince the kid ''not'' to kill himself ("owever on the off chance that anyone is stupid enough to end their lives perhaps a fellow [[Catholic]] should jump in there and explain why that's not a good idea. ") and may very well actually turn out to be worse than doing nothing if it is real. "Wikipedia does not give X (medical, legal, whatever) advice" was created for this very reason. <font color="blue">-[[User:Wooty|'''Wo''']][[User:Wooty/b|'''''o''''']][[User:Wooty/Avoid presenting Wikipedia as anything but an encyclopedia|'''ty''']]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Wooty|'''Woot?''']]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Wooty|'''contribs''']]</small></font> 02:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I understand you aren't saying nothing should be done, and I also understand you are saying what shouldn't be done. "...what would you have us do?" It's a Catch-22 situation, say nothing to him/her and risk them following through. Say something risk them following through too. I don't mean for this to sound like rhetoric, but seriously try to imagine what news outlets and people like [[Bill O'Reilly (commentator)|Bill O'Reilly]] would say in either case. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 05:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::[[Lesser of two evils principle]]. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 05:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::It's not a catch-22 situation at all. Wikipedia contributors are not qualified to give psychological advice. It's the equivalent of having somebody post on the refdesk "help there's a suspicious object outside my house", somebody calling the police, and then some doofus stepping in and yelling "YOU SHOULD GO UP TO IT AND TAKE OFF THE COVER AND CUT THE GREEN WIRE OKEY". Not only does this set the Foundation up for one big-ass lawsuit, it could be dangerous and irresponsible. Let the professionals (police) handle this, please. Would you rather have a T.V. news outlet say "Teen commits suicide after he posted on Wikipedia, contributors contacted authorities but it was too late" or "Teen commits suicide after he posted on Wikipedia, ''contributors may have accidental role in the teen's death''? I can certainly see someone responding negatively to a post saying LOL THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULDN'T KILL YOURSELF: CAUSE GOD HAETS SUICIDE LOL, and that coupled with the instability of someone that may commit suicide may push them over the edge. <font color="blue">-[[User:Wooty|'''Wo''']][[User:Wooty/b|'''''o''''']][[User:Wooty/Avoid presenting Wikipedia as anything but an encyclopedia|'''ty''']]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Wooty|'''Woot?''']]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Wooty|'''contribs''']]</small></font> 06:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I'm not saying anyone is qualified to do anything, I certainly wouldn't advocate a layperson trying to handle a possible explosive device. Respectfully, your analogy is not truly descriptive of this situation. To sum up this situation in an analogy: <blockquote>You're standing near the edge of the [[Grand Canyon]], resting on the safety barrier which itself is about three or four feet from the edge. Out of nowhere a man climbs over, walks to the edge and says "I'm going to kill myself!"</blockquote>You:
:A) Ask him not to.
:B) Say nothing.
:If I understand you correctly, the answer is B unless you the observer happen to be trained for suicide intervention? The police probably aren't going to make it in time to stop the guy in my example so waiting for them is consigning him to succeed. People can be figuratively compared to bombs, but in this case a literal comparison is not accurate. We have no idea the police were successful in locating this person, until we do know it's us (Wikipedia) and the person in question. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 08:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::You guys still talking about that? Hopefully we wouldn't need to go to Arbitration ''(Joke)''. In another issue altogether, is there any recent news of the Chicago police? --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 08:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===Comment===
''Many'' of the comments left in this section are shameless and shameful, and I ''don't only'' mean the ones that treat things as a joke. [[User:FNMF|FNMF]] 09:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:True, but some are very responsible. Next we need to create a page on how to respond to a suicide note. - [[User:Kittybrewster|Kittybrewster ]]<small>[[User_talk:Kittybrewster| (talk)]]</small> 09:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I don't treat things as a joke, FNMF. It's my attempt at softening the mood of the grim situation that we were in. May you enlightening me about how my comments are ''shameless and shameful''?. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 09:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Some levity is called for. But obviously, it's a ''very'' delicate situation. --[[User:Otheus|Otheus]] 12:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Have to agree with that. Obviously, my comments aren't exactly the best, but they are still a long way from being classified ''shameless''. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 12:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Get of your high horse. You do not have the market cornered on how to deal with every situation. People deal with things differently and it is not up to you to critique others on how that is done. You have no right to label anyone ''shameless and shameful''--[[User:Looper5920|Looper5920]] 17:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I stand by what I said, and I stand by my right to say what I said. [[User:FNMF|FNMF]] 04:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Your ''rights'' in calling other editor's comments shameful to Wikipedia? I don't think so... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 05:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I'm pretty sure this isn't the first instance of someone saying they were going to commit suicide on wikipedia and sadly it's unlikely to be the last. Things appear to have been handled resonably well. Even if it may be unlikely that an editor is serious, we should generally take such threats seriously and contact people as required. As I understand it in this particular instance it doesn't appear the person was serious and appears to have thought the whole thing was a bit of a joke. It's rather sad that this person thought saying they were going to commit suicide was a joking matter. It appears that this person was previously involved in hurtful comments as well and perhaps they similarly didn't thought it mattered. Hopefully the person has now learnt that things on the internet aren't just a joke and can be quite serious. At least then one good thing would come out of this whole sorry mess [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] 18:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===Archive, please?===
 
May I suggest we archive the whole school and suicide section of this. If and when [[User:PatPeter]] returns, this is the last thing he's going to want to see. Leave the other sections, by all means, but this may be embarrassing to him. It's served its purpose & the guy is obviously already upset. Let him make a fresh start.
 
Thoughts? - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 18:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:That would seriously impede our ability to handle and discuss things, and no matter what we do we can't let the actions of a user interrupt the normal operation of Wikipedia. If and when the school and/or Chicago PD contacts one of us, then yes, do it, but until then it is an ongoing matter and should remain up, regardless of his feelings. -<u>[[User:AKMask|<font color="000000">M</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:AKMask|<font color="000000">ask?</font>]]</sup></small></u> 19:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::I kinda agree with you both, I think we should wait for the Chicago PD to call or something like that, or perhaps even PatPeter himself to leave a message, until we archive this. He may indeed be very embarrassed when seeing this and we should just archive this if possible, but that's not really possible when it's still an ongoing issue. [[User:Salaskan|Salaskan]] 19:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::The police department will contact the foundation, I doubt they'll leave a note here. Nothing is getting accomplished in this discussion, higher authorities have already done what is needed. For the benefit of the reputations of all involved parties, I support the archival of this thread. '''[[User:Ikiroid|The ikiroid]] ([[User talk:Ikiroid|talk]]·[[User:Ikiroid/Desk|desk]]·[[User talk:Ikiroid/Help Me Improve|Advise me]])''' 01:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::: Why exactly should we care? If he wants to kill himself, that's his prerogative. [[User:HalfShadow|HalfShadow]] 04:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
* With regard to suicide threats, they should be taken seriously, as it could save someone's life. It's better to take it seriously than not worry about it, as suicide is a worry. --<font color="Red">[[User:SunStar Net|'''SunStar Net''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:SunStar Net|''talk'']]</font></sup> 18:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===PatPeter returns ===
Given PatPeter has returned and started posting abusive messages to people telling them to shut up and he never intended to kill himself anyway, I think the police found him. Now we know he's safe, can we please block him for abusive attacks and removing of warnings from his talkpage? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
* He's now been blocked for 48 hours by [[User:Cyde]] so that's that. I'm just glad that he's okay - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 00:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Thank you for the update, it's nice to know. [[User:Anynobody|Anynobody]] 00:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Seems the block has been upgraded to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:PatPeter one year]. - '''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="mediumblue">auburn</font><font color="darkorange">pilot</font>]]''' [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 06:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Indeed. [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#A_bold_solution]]. -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 07:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::I should have known....another discussion split between several places. ;-) I can't say I disagree, Pat seems to have caused more than his/her share of trouble. - '''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="mediumblue">auburn</font><font color="darkorange">pilot</font>]]''' [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 07:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Good block. Maybe he can take some of his new found free time to visit [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Shepherd%27s_Boy_and_the_Wolf Wikisource].--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 13:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== BassxForte, Uncivility, 3RR ==
 
{{User|BassxForte}} has been very uncivil in almost all encounters in talk pages. Completely unwilling to accept consensus, even though it's currently 7 vs 1 on [[Talk:Organization XIII]]. Has edit-warred multiple times, especially on this article, over the past month. If you want diffs, try the page history and his contributions page.
 
I have been extremely tolerant on this user in this duration, as his user page states that he is a reformed vandal. A recent edit[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BassxForte&diff=120851436&oldid=120137478] on his talk page has changed the following text:
 
"I am very stubborn, both in real life and all other situations, if you get into a argument with me in a talk page, you can be assured the conversation won't end until you give up or an admin decides the discussion closed, heh. Arguing with me is a lost cause, almost everyone I know in real life knows this, *evil laugh*."
 
Administrator input is definitely required. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 01:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:I think that, after giving [[Organization XIII]] a once-over, that almost the entire article is [[WP:NOR|original research]] and does not have one single reference to a reliable source (because all of its references are to the subject of the article itself, not a published secondary source). The best thing to do is cut the article down to a stub and moot the argument with BassxForte. [[User:A Train|<b><span style="background:#11117D;color:white">A</span></b> <span style="color:#11117D">Train</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Train|talk]]</sup> 16:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::I've tried mooting the argument a number of times already. He simply does not agree with us. Also, the concern I'm bringing up is not the article, but rather BassxForte's conduct. Despite multiple people directing him to pages with common policy([[WP:CIVIL]], [[WP:COOL]], especially [[WP:3RR]], etc), he continues to ignore it. He also makes many comments which I consider to be personal attacks. Also: [[Talk:Organization_XIII#The_Fight_Against_Roxas|discussion]], [[Talk:Organization_XIII#Lets_Try_This_Again|another discussion]], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:A_Man_In_Black&diff=next&oldid=113263240#Rules].
 
::Diffs: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BassxForte&curid=8583054&diff=112978377&oldid=112429992], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organization_XIII&diff=prev&oldid=120303267], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organization_XIII&diff=prev&oldid=112396517] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organization_XIII&diff=prev&oldid=112410984] - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 21:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
What? Go to [[Zero (Mega Man)]] and many other talk pages i've put my points in, you will see that not ''only'' am I ready to admit flaws in my argument, I have an honest desire to improve wikipedia. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 20:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
And the quote which you claim came form my page was never on my page to my knowledge. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 20:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Editing text out does not change the fact that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABassxForte&diff=112978377&oldid=112429992 you added it], and that it was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BassxForte&diff=120851436&oldid=120137478 on your userpage for a month] (Note the dates), along with other inflammatory remarks that are still there, including "Although I try my best to be civil with other users, I admit that almost all of them are a bit... ''off''." (Diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABassxForte&diff=112429992&oldid=112137943 here].) [[User:Nique1287|Nique]] <small>[[User_talk:Nique1287|talk]]</small> 22:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BassxForte&diff=100378497&oldid=100323775 This remark is very worrisome.] "'''Motto''' Never Give Up. (This motto has... regretabbly gotten me into some edit wars since I refuse to have parts of articles I like taken out, although in all said wars the other person was just being unreasonable.)" He put that in in January. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 22:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Most of the time they '''are''' acting unreasonable, the only time I have ever gotten angry about the way another user was treating the page was on the talk page for [[Metal Sonic]]. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 01:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
And by "off" I meant that most are kinda weird by my standards. (and keep in mind my standards are very eccentric) [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 01:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:That doesn't change the fact that you've been aware of your habit of getting into edit wars for at least 4 months, and to appear to have not changed in any way since then. Calling people you've been in edit wars with "unreasonable" does not appear to be very polite, or have any assumption of good faith at all. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 01:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Oh, and he's also threatened to continue an edit war previously (I see that as a threat of vandalism). [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Urutapu&diff=112445480&oldid=112443318] Recently, in direct response to this ANI posting, he has stated that he will respond in a way that "won't be pretty" if an admin intervenes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Organization_XIII&curid=2468088&diff=121061239&oldid=121056390] - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 01:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Block upon warring, then block longer, then block yet again. He's welcome to disagree until he turns blue as long as he doesn't get into a war over an article's actual contents... at which, we [[WP:BLOCK]]. --[[User:Autocracy|<span style="background:darkblue; color:white">'''Auto'''</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Autocracy|<span style="background:#B0C4DE; color:black">''talk''</span>]] / [[Special:Contributions/Autocracy|<span style="background:#B0C4DE; color:black">''contribs''</span>]])</sup> 02:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Your taking this way to far, the notion that I have done something extreme, that I have acted harshly/rudly/incivily seem to be all incorrect notions, might I suggest looking at the good stuff i've done, rather then ''just'' the bad? Considering that they outnumber the bad things i've done by a 10 to 1 margin. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 13:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Instead of saying that I'm taking this too far, show something that counters my claims. Provide diffs. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 13:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I'd also like to note that that doesn't change the the fact that you have been doing some negative things as well, as recent as ''just yesterday,'' and you have shown to be aware of these negative actions for at least ''four months''. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 14:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Note that on [[Talk:Metal Sonic]] I admit the flaws in my argument, and let the guy I was arguing with take the win, also, check out the talk page for [[Onaga]] and [[Brotherhood of Shadow]]. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 18:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Just because you do good, too, doesn't change the fact that you have been doing, and have been aware of doing, and have been '''continuing to do''' bad as well for quite some time. [[User:Nique1287|Nique]] <small>[[User_talk:Nique1287|talk]]</small> 19:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
However the good far outnumber the bad, you gotta think positive, especially since all those "bad" things are done with the intent of improving wikipedia. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 19:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Letting someone "take the win" is not how we do things here. This is not a competition on whether you win an argument or not. ''Doing positive things is not an excuse to contribute negative things to the project, to "balance it out," especially if you are contributing negatively '''right now.''''' Even if you want us to ignore it, it doen't change the fact you're doing it. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 21:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I am aware of all that, as for "take the win", thats just the way I phrased it, the main thing i've been arguing here is that you act like i've not done a single good thing for wikipedia, and went as far as to claim I acted uncivil in '''all''' talk pages I have been on. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 03:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I have no trouble at all about what good things you're doing, which is why I haven't mentioned it. I am concerned about what bad things you are doing. I suppose I should bring up the fact that you appear to be trying to use your good edits as a way to dodge this subject. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 10:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I'm also bothered by this fact - you have expressed awareness of your bad contributions for a fairly long time, (and if you haven't, we have mentioned it to you multiple times, even just here.) and you have never explained why you haven't changed your editing habits. Please clearly explain why you have not made an attempt. If you had tried and failed, why have you decided to continue contributing this way? - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 10:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Give me a few examples of "bad" edits I have made, and we'll go from there, furthermore these "bad" edits you speak of seem isolated entirely toward the Org XIII page. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 16:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:It doesn't matter where you're doing it, it's what you're doing in the first place. And you haven't answered my question. - [[User:Zero1328|Zero1328]] <sub>[[User talk:Zero1328|Talk?]]</sub> 22:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't tally scores with the good things you do and the bad things you do, as far as I can tell. Making 100 good edits does not give you the right to vandalize 1 page, and trying to take advantage of the fact that you have made good edits in the past shows that you refuse to take resposibility for the edit war on the Org XIII page. Your comments on the talk page of the Org XIII article also show me (and I'm sure others) that you will not accept your own mistake, no matter how many times and to what degree your mistake is invalidated. Which is why I don't get the feeling that you will stop doing things like this. You can't always be right on Wikipedia. I haven't been here very long, but I do know that. Posted by: GDR of the Moon 18:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
You don't seem to understand what i'm saying, im saying that you can't call me a bad user over just a few isolated incidents and some edits that may or may have not been in violation of one of wikipedia's rules. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 23:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I understand what you are saying. I understand that you haven't gone into every single article like a hellbird and totally demolished it. I understand that you have tried to be civil in most situations, accept some degree of criticism and fallacy, and help the project in a respectable way. But it seems that this is a specific issue about specific violations, and no amount of good Samaritanism could possibly undo a breaking of the rules. Think of it the way you would at school: If you have a perfect attendance throughout your entire school career, and then you decide to skip an entire week of school, unexcused, should the school waiver all of their truancy punishments because you had a perfect attendance before you started skipping school? I'm not sure what exactly the administrators want you to say, but I'm more curious about why you believe that your logic defeated the logic of seven other people, and you felt your conclusions had more weight than theirs. I understand that the majority is not always correct (I'm an atheist, so I happen to have a thing for prefering logical evaluation over what the general population believes), but in something that is so black and white as what goes into an article, I would think that it would be easy to see where seven logical, thinking people would have more weight of word than one logical, thinking person. However, because that is not really the point of this thread, I suppose I will try to leave the rest of the discussion up to the moderators and hope that my arguement has somehow clarified what the moderators have been trying to explain to you. Posted by: GDR of the Moon 00:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I do firmly believe that I am right involving the thing about Roxas, although I feel i'm acting too similar to ogre. [[User:BassxForte|BassxForte]] 01:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Well, like I said, it's not necessarily the actual topic (which was really rather menial and neither helped nor detracted from the article itself), but simply the fact that you 3RR'd the page several times and used what some people considered to be personal attacks in your arguments. Poster by: GDR of the Moon 02:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Artaxiad ==
 
*{{User5|Artaxiad}}
*[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan/Proposed decision#Artaxiad]]
*[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan/Proposed decision#Artaxiad banned]]
*[[commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Blocks_&_protections#24.34.77.145_and_NOPLEASE]]
This user has been continuing to stir problems as mentioned on the RfAr page. Although the case is not yet closed, the user continues to cause disruption of various sorts in my opinion. User was recently blocked form commons for vandalizing by using sockpuppets. --<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 17:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Got any evidence of disruption on this wiki?--[[User:Domitius|Domitius]] 17:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::Yes. For example [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:Kurdistana_Sor.jpeg&diff=prev&oldid=5111013] or [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Kurdistana_Sor.jpeg&diff=prev&oldid=5109439]. --<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 17:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::No, he means on Wikipedia. //[[User:PullToOpen|PTO]] 17:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::::He is committing similar behavior here:
::::*Removing copyvio notice: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Kurdistana_Sor.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=120943488]
::::**Same behaviour as on commons
::::*Afding Turkish provinces [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kalecik&diff=prev&oldid=120945560], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dar%C4%B1ca&diff=prev&oldid=120944899]
::::**User "[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan/Proposed decision#Artaxiad|attempts to turn Wikipedia into a battleground along national lines]]"
::::*Revert waring on [[Greek War of Independence]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greek_War_of_Independence&diff=120946226&oldid=120946121], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Greek_War_of_Independence&diff=120950404&oldid=120947594]. Revert waring on [[Skanderbeg]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skanderbeg&diff=120928143&oldid=120927903], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skanderbeg&diff=120926840&oldid=120926730]
::::**User is on Temporary injunction by arbcom and is "[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan#Temporary injunction|restricted to one content revert per article per day, and each content revert must be accompanied by a justification on the relevant talk page]]". I see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Greek_War_of_Independence&action=history no comments] on the talk page
::::--<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 18:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Any block should be logged at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan#Log of blocks and bans]] --<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 18:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Don't know about the rest of the situation, but I've blocked Artaxiad 24 hours for violating the 1RR injunction at [[:Skanderbeg]]. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 19:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
If this user is still actively editing, and is not indefinitely blocked, why has the talk page been repeatedly deleted? It was my understanding that a talk page is only deleted when a user is no longer editing. Have I missed something? - '''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="mediumblue">auburn</font><font color="darkorange">pilot</font>]]''' [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Artaxiad asks for speedy deletion for his own pages. The last one: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=User:Artaxiad]. I don't know why Artaxiad does that. [[User:Denizz|deniz]]<sup>[[User Talk:Denizz|T]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Denizz|C]]</sub> 10:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
: I know that this might be irrelevant to English Wikipedia, but {{User|Artaxiad}} was involved in repeated vandalism of my user pages in Azerbaijani and Russian Wikipedias. [http://az.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C4%B0stifad%C9%99%C3%A7i%3AGrandmaster&diff=74161&oldid=71651] [http://az.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C4%B0stifad%C9%99%C3%A7i%3AGrandmaster&diff=74165&oldid=74163] [http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%3AGrandmaster&diff=3464968&oldid=2284688] [http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%3AGrandmaster&diff=3465046&oldid=3464990] It is the same IP that was identified in commons as belonging to Artaxiad. It just shows what kind of disruptive person he is. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 11:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::I think a longer block is warranted, perhaps a year long one. --<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 20:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I think that's too much [[User:Denizz|deniz]]<sup>[[User Talk:Denizz|T]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Denizz|C]]</sub> 10:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::He will be blocked for that long as per arbcom ruling. I see no reason why we should tolerate such disruption any longer. --<small> [[User:Cool Cat|Cat]]</small> <sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|chi?]]</sup> 10:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Artaxiad [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=121429212&oldid=121428291 removed] an earlier comment from this page, and I reverted that edit. Not a good thing. --[[User:AnonEMouse|AnonEMouse]] <sup>[[User_talk:AnonEMouse|(squeak)]]</sup> 14:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Peter Dobbie ==
 
{{User|Peter dobbie}} was determined to be the real [[Peter Dobbie]], a BBC news anchor. Unfortunately, after being informed that it was inappropriate for him to edit and add content to the page about him here on the Wikipedia, he continued to use his account solely for this purpose. I have blocked him for continued violations of [[WP:COI]]. I will also let the foundation know about my actions due to this user's status in the media world. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 17:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:Tell [[m:ComCom|ComCom]], too. //[[User:PullToOpen|PTO]] 17:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::I just fired off a message to them. In fact, rather than the foundation. If you believe I should still inform the foundation as a whole, let me know. I think the communications committee (and this noticeboard) is probably sufficient. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 18:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
COI situations are best avoided, but there is no outright prohibition of an article subject's adding accurate, notable biographical information about himself or herself. Was there any particular problem with the editing beyond the identity of the editor? [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 18:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:There is a problem if he's adding unpublished information where before all the information was at least available from the BBC website. There is a problem when he's adding an enthusiastic narrative that reads like it was written by himself or the BBC. —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 21:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I unblocked and I'm going to follow up with [[User:Peter dobbie]] by email. I've read the correspondence that he has already received and will make sure he understands our policies related to content. Patient editors are invited to help me edit the article and discuss problems with content on the talk page. :-) [[User:FloNight|FloNight]] 20:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Actually, it turns out the prior text added by an anon [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Dobbie&diff=36140370&oldid=31067309 21 January 2006] is copied directly from [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/bbc_news_24/3492833.stm the BBC website], so the whole page is a copyvio back to that date. —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 21:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I honestly wish you luck. The last thing I want to do is to tick off a BBC news anchor, but Mr. Dobbie has seemed unwilling to listen to my and other people's efforts to inform him about Wikipedia policies. The best solution obviously would be to have him unblocked and abiding by our policies but I completely failed in these attempts. Note that I attempted to point out our policies on image copyright and fair use, our policies on conflict-of-interest and verification, and our policies on article ownership. I provided both a link to the policies and a hand-written brief interpretation of these policies. The only response was that there was no problem and I should make sure nobody else changes the text of the article once Mr. Dobbie had incorporated what he wanted. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 22:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
This user has now issued a legal threat via email, in response to my message about his violation of WP:COI:
<blockquote>OK then what say I take Wikipedia to court for publishing information
about me to which you have no right, copyright or access. It seems to me
that you are totally missing the point which is (1) the article is about
me (2) if it's inaccurate you're now saying that I don't have the right
to change it because (3) you decide and (4) who the hell are you to take
that decision anyway.</blockquote>
Mr. Dobbie appears absolutely unwilling to abide by [[WP:COI]] and there are substantial problems with the images he has been uploading. I would like someone else to review this and consider blocking him indefinitely under [[WP:NLT]]. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 18:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:[[WP:NLT]] says it's a straight reason for indef block, and I don't see him turning around any time soon. Indef blocked for legal threat. [[User:Luigi30|Luigi30]] ([[User_talk:Luigi30|Ta&lambda;k]]) 12:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
It's probably useless at this point, but I don't see any real problem with the edits he was trying to make this month. He provided several photographs when we didn't have any (asserting a plausible copyright claim in light of his identity), made a few minor changes to the article format, and edited his job title. All of those are permissible under [[WP:AUTO#If_Wikipedia_already_has_an_article_about_you]], no? -[[User:Hit bull, win steak|Hit bull, win steak]]<sup>[[User talk:Hit bull, win steak|(Moo!)]]</sup> 13:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:One of the photographs he uploaded was a screen capture from BBC World News. The copyright for that would be owned by the BBC, not by him. Additionally, his edits were greater than a few minor changes, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Dobbie&diff=119298215&oldid=107242582]. Now, this could be debateably permitted under WP:AUTO, though not Mr. Dobbie's refusal to let anyone else edit the article once he's got it how he wants it. Anyway, his threat to sue has lead to a block. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] 14:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Block review ==
 
{{resolved|1=Or seems to be? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 19:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)}}
Earlier today I blocked {{user|Giza E}} as a sock of [[User:MagicKirin]]. The user is now claiming that I should not have blocked, stating I am in a content dispute with him/her. Further, by email, Giza E states that the original block was by Essjay who has been discredited and "Ergo there is no sock puppet violation". I am in no dispute with MagicKirin other than the continued attempts at disruption via socks, but a review would be appreciated. The Essjay comment is a bit ridiculous, and basically confirms Giza E is a sock. - '''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="mediumblue">auburn</font><font color="darkorange">pilot</font>]]''' [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 17:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:'''Endorse block'''. If we have to unblock everyone who was blocked by Essjay, I quit right now. [[User:Natalie Erin|Natalie]] 19:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::Agreed. Giza E is clutching at straws here. [[User:Theresa knott|Theresa Knott]] | [[User talk:Theresa knott|Taste the Korn]] 19:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Past that, I've been treating MagicKirin/Decato as banned for some time, now. There's been plenty of discussion on unblock-en-l about it, and the user's brought up a painful number of socks, refusing to recognize even the most reasonable of policies or requests from any fellow Wikipedian -- it's always "my way or an army of socks highway." I haven't checked who set the original block, because it doesn't matter at this point. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 19:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Endorse, I blocked Giza D as a result of a checkuser, and the unblock request reason is nonsense. '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 03:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== management speak bullshit (Personal branding) ==
 
Hi - we have an editor who we cannot get to understand the Manual of style and persists in adding some godawful management bullshit speak stuff about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_branding personal branding] (linked to a site flogging the stuff of course). ''You are the Brand and the Brand is You! A personal brand consists of everything that makes you exactly the individual you are..'' and so on. Can someone sit in before we have an edit war, there are only a few of us working on the page but the rest of us agree it should not go in - or at the very least should be discussed on the talkpage. --[[User:Fredrick day|Fredrick day]] 19:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:If you are talking about [[User:Omegalion|Omegalion]] I just gave him a 24 hour block for a 3RR violation. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 19:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Reverted again. The material being added is unacceptable. Can someone with more time and patience than I please inform this guy what he's doing wrong? [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 19:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::: I'm trying to and will continue to do so - as with most of those things, it's get them to the talkpage that's the problem... thanks for the assist. --[[User:Fredrick day|Fredrick day]] 19:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::No problem. I've watchlisted that page: if he tries to add the junk anywhere else please let me know and I'll try to sort things out. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 19:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Sorry everyone, bad revert on this page back to the spam. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 19:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:No one has bothered to actually leave a message on his talk page discussing why his edits have been reverted. That's a much better first step that coming to AN/I, Frederick. [[User:A Train|<b><span style="background:#11117D;color:white">A</span></b> <span style="color:#11117D">Train</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Train|talk]]</sup> 19:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Not really fair, given the attempts to communicate on the article's talk. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 19:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Remember though: for true noobies, edit histories (where edit summaries would be visable) and article talk pages may be a total mystery. It's always best to go to the user talk page first. That orange bar can't be missed, no matter how green the user. [[User:A Train|<b><span style="background:#11117D;color:white">A</span></b> <span style="color:#11117D">Train</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Train|talk]]</sup> 19:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:: A Train: I've tried to explain it to him too, both on the article talk page and via e-mail (he contacted me at some point). There have been several elaborate (from my side) e-mails sent back and forth. I somehow didn't manage to get through to him, maybe the block will help. Didn't want to block him myself, given my involvement in the editing earlier. --[[User:JoanneB|Joanne]][[User talk:JoanneB|B]] 19:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
And we did do this when he was editing via an IP address and also on the article talkpage where he left a couple of comment - plus the edit summaries asked him to come to the talkpage. --[[User:Fredrick day|Fredrick day]] 19:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::My apologies for jumping to conclusions. For what it's worth, I left the user a talkpage message. [[User:A Train|<b><span style="background:#11117D;color:white">A</span></b> <span style="color:#11117D">Train</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Train|talk]]</sup> 19:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Oh noes what a rubbish page. I've removed the bad sources and promospeak and the copyvio (surprise surprise) bits, rewritten drastically for tone (using the one academic source), provided a requested citation, and removed the <nowiki>{{tone}}</nowiki> tag. It got a lot shorter, but I can't help that. :-) Please don't let the editor in question revert back to the rubbish, see my edit summaries for all the specific things that were wrong with it. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 03:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
:::: Thanks, it looks (and reads) a lot better now! I can't believe I didn't spot that copyvio, was too busy keeping the Adam and Eve stuff out :)--[[User:JoanneB|Joanne]][[User talk:JoanneB|B]] 09:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::: I think the copyvio was mine - it was meant to be a quote but with all the changes, I must have missed the right tags - I have have of course given myself 6 of the best. --[[User:Fredrick day|Fredrick day]] 10:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::: No, no please keep the masochism off ANI! What with all the suicide drama, we don't need more gloom and pain :) Seriously, I think the page does look a lot better now. Cheers, [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[Wikipedia:Requested recordings|Request a recording?]]</sup> 10:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Lilkunta ==
 
Could another set of eyes head to [[User talk:Lilkunta]] and help the user out? The problem is that Lilkunta uses a horrendous "chiller" font, in green, in size 2 through HTML code. Well the issue is that Lilkunta never <nowiki></font></nowiki>ed an of the posts, therefore, the entire talk page is green now, in that horrendous font. I've fixed it several times, as has another user, but Lilkunta refuses to take help from either of us because apparently we're jerks. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lilkunta&oldid=121036501 This] is how it looked after I repaired it, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lilkunta&oldid=121043822 this] is how it looks after Lilkunta's 6 attempts to fix it (note that several sections of talk and warnings have been removed in the process by Lilkunta).
 
Can someone else stop in there? It's getting really disruptive that Lilkunta insists on refusing help and that, despite our warnings and requests not to, the user still uses the ridiculous font on everyone's talk pages (s/he's stopped using the chiller font on my talk page and now just simply bolds everything which is equally annoying). [[User:Metros232|Metros232]] 20:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I found this user to be absolutely impossible to deal with. [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] 20:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Joie I find u impossible. Again, u r not to post to me or about me.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 20:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::See what I mean? [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] 20:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Joie, u & I have previous history so u r bias. [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 21:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::You don't have the power to tell people they can't post about you. Nobody does. Having said that, if you want to have unclosed font tags on your talkpage, people really shouldn't be trying to remove them. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 20:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::@ Amark: What about repeated posts that are unwanted. I receive unsolicited posts & I have to deal with them.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Thank U. I get that they dont want it on their pages, but they all changed my page which dont like. Joie is to make no comments bc we disputed about a page but she is.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 21:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::"She"? This is a completely separate issue from the "content dispute" (if "Lilkunta ignoring policy and being really obstinate" should be called that). I can comment here freely, stop making decrees. [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] 22:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::R u a he? [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::The issue, Amarkov, is that Lilkunta ''wants'' the page to be fixed. In fact, when s/he discovered the page was all green, s/he posted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cascadia&diff=prev&oldid=121027080 this] vandalism accusation. So, we're all trying to help, but getting shot down. [[User:Metros232|Metros232]] 21:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::I was fixing my own page. Cascadia offered help. U metros just changed my page without my permission even after I asked you to stop.
 
I've nuked all of them and gave Lilkunta a stern warning.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龍</font>]]) 20:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I didnt ask for Metros' help. I do not want it. I dont know y Metros is watching my page. I have asked repeatedly 4 Metros to cease contact. I am fixing my page bc it is afterall my page.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I posted a really annoying font on that users' talk page hopefully that explains literally what some users are having to deal with here. BTW: I like different fonts but some really makes your eyes sore. -- [[User:Hdt83|<sub><font color="336611" ><b>Hdt83</b></font></sub>]] [[User talk:Hdt83|<sup><font color="blue" face="Arial"><b>Chat</b></font></sup>]] 21:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I thought you too had a font preference but I c u r just bullying me like the rest of them.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 21:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
There is a lot of [[WP:CIV|incivility]] floating around due to something as simple as <nowiki><font></nowiki> tags. Lilkunta, the problem would be solved if you agreed to close your tags on your talk page, and not use them at all on other pages. [[User:Leebo|<b><font color="#3D59AB">Leebo</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><sup><small>T</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><small>C</small></font>]] 21:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:But you do realize that [[:Image:Awfulfont.png|this]] is what people are seeing?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龍</font>]]) 21:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I c Chiller fine but now understand you all dont have browsers that do. [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::And that's generous because the image is so large. It looks a LOT smaller if you look at it in a normal browser (that image seems pretty "blown up"). [[User:Metros232|Metros232]] 21:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Hmm, I dont know or talk to any of u. Just as u want ur page ur way, I want my page my way. I dont want any of u all to help me. Pls stop changing my page.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 21:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:If having your talk page configured in such a manner that some editors wanting to communicate with you have severe difficulty understanding the words because of the font you are using, then this is disruption. You don't get to disrupt any part of Wikipedia. Not even your talk page. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 21:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Why do others get to have many diff things on their page but not me? I just want to be in charge of my disc page.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
[[:Image:400px-Awfulfont.PNG|Here's what I'm seeing]].-- [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] 21:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I didnt realise that nt every 1's browser supports Chiller. Leebo was civil & much nicer than the rest of u & showed me. I'll use Chiller only when I must. Thx again Leebo.[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
That is completely unacceptable. Lilkunta must stop this. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 21:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Apparently using hideous fonts and colors is vitally important to this user while typing in complete words and sentences is not worth their time and effort. I would advise Lilkunta to reassess their priorities and their reasons for participating on this project. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
What about the [[WP:CIV|incivility]] that Leebo mentioned earlier? [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:If they want to use that font on their own talk page, bully to them for it. However, using it elsewhere is problematic. Luckily, as a Mac user, I don't have that font (I'll classify that under "Viruses don't work for me" :D), but that really is disruptive to use elsewhere, especially if the user doesn't know how to use it ''properly''. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 22:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I will maintain my font & colour& my disc page. If a user says a post I make is unreadable,I will gladly change it. [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
* I rcommended that Lilkunta use her font/design talents in creating userpages and infoboxes instead of talkpage fonts. I hope s/he is willing to take me up on that offer, because well designed userpages are assets. &mdash; '''[[User:Deckiller|Deckill]][[User talk:Deckiller|er]]''' 23:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
*I have to say I can't believe you had the gall, Lilkunta, to reformat this discussion and apply your new font. And you contributed to the incivility too. [[User:Leebo|<b><font color="#3D59AB">Leebo</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><sup><small>T</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><small>C</small></font>]] 23:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Leebo I was told this new colurfont type id ok. It is still hard to read? [[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 23:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
At this point, I support a block. He is clearly being disruptive. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 23:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I just had to remove Lilkunta's formatting of their messages here (and they used a font I ''did'' have installed); this ''isn't'' the user's talk page. Grrr. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 23:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Please use a colon, Lilkunta, instead of your green font. It makes it much easier to read...and makes it less of a annoyance. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 23:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
It appears that all the indenting in this section is gone. This happened on my talk page and on the article Talk pages that Lilkunta blessed with their [[Midas touch]]. [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] 23:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===Blocked===
For edits like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=121073058 this one] in which s/he changed the font and the entire formatting of this thread despite being warned not to do that only a couple of hours ago, Lilkunta have been blocked for 24 hours. I '''strongly''' suggest that when the block expires that s/he does ''not'' use different fonts '''at all''' as it is clearly causing annoyance to a good percentage of Wikipedia members who have been involved with it. [[User:Metros232|Metros232]] 23:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:I... so, yeah, it's like this: I ''want'' to think you were a bit heavy-handed, but yet, I just can't bring myself to disagree with it...<br />I still think that they should be able to do whatever the hell they want to ''on their own talk page and '''only''' on their own talk page'', but I will most certainly agree that editing the formatting (and, in the process, destroying the indentations) of this conversation, to put it delicately, showed poor judgement. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 23:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::Yeah, and the fact that s/he had been warned not to use the font, the fact that others had tried to help but s/he kept ignoring advice, the fact that we've all spent way too much time talking about fonts and formatting, it all leads up to disruption block in my mind. I'd appreciate any other comments on my action, but I do feel it was justified based on sufficient warning that was ignored. [[User:Metros232|Metros232]] 23:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
:::All seriousness aside, you have my full endorsement on the block. I completely agree that such blatant disregard for the overwhelming consensus that their font styling was disruptive is problematic (and I agree again that all this discussion has been a waste of time and energy). Hopefully a short block will help cement the whole "don't do that" thing. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 00:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Endorse. I question the necessity or utility of changing fonts even on your own talk page (though I wouldn't block over it), but seriously, this was becoming beyond ridiculous. —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 23:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
::Endorse block. I believe that the font shouldn't be used anywhere as it is disruptive, but if as a consensus we are going to say that it's fine on user's own talk page, I won't have any objection is this case. But certainly, endorse block for disruption on ANI after warning. '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 00:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Block endorsed and unblock request declined.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龍</font>]]) 00:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::: I'm not an admin, but I have to say her attitude leaves something to be desired, too... [[User:HalfShadow|HalfShadow]] 00:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
===i found what happened===
I found what happened. This is the version of lilkunta's talk page that is in Google's cache from 11:53 on 4 April: [http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:7VBxMJiisA4J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lilkunta+http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lilkunta&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a]
. But this is Wikipedia's version of the events: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Lilkunta&oldid=120108354]. Notice something? The two versions are different.
 
This is sample wiki code from the page at that time:
:<nowiki><FONT COLOR="green"> O ok. I was told to place {helpme} it on an admin's page. Did n e 1 come & help u?'''[[User:Lilkunta|Lilkunta]] 14:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)'''.</nowiki>
 
:<nowiki>==Archiving==</nowiki>
This is a sample of the raw html code that is sent to browsers by Wikipedia now if we read the version from that date:
:<nowiki><p><font color="green">O ok. I was told to place {helpme} it on an admin's page. Did n e 1 come &amp; help u?<b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Lilkunta&amp;action=edit" class="new" title="User:Lilkunta">Lilkunta</a> 14:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)</b>.</font></p></nowiki>
:<nowiki><p><font color="green"><a name="Archiving" id="Archiving"></a></font></p></nowiki>
but in Google's version, this is a sample of the raw html code that was sent to browsers then:
:<nowiki><p><font color="green">O ok. I was told to place {helpme} it on an admin's page. Did n e 1 come &amp; help u?<b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lilkunta" title="User:Lilkunta">Lilkunta</a> 14:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)</b>.</font></p></nowiki>
:<nowiki> <p><a name="Archiving" id="Archiving"></a></p></nowiki>
 
Sometimes between 4 April and now, the Wikipedia server software was updated to allow <nowiki><font></nowiki> tags to span multiple paragraphs. --[[User:Mihai cartoaje|Mihai cartoaje]] 03:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:It should be updated to disable those tags entirely. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 06:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::&lt;font&gt; ''should'' be disabled, but since the tag has previously been allowed, people have probably been &lt;font&gt;ing stuff here and there and everywhere. We'd need a giant bot operation to convert &lt;font&gt;s to &lt;span style=...&gt;s, autoconvert everyone's signatures at database level... uh, this is going to be tricky. --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 18:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Let it break. That's kind of the point of disabling<nowiki><font></nowiki> tags. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Inappropriate use of user space? ==
 
From [[User:Maestroka]]:
 
*''This user is against the Armenian Diaspora's efforts to rewrite the twentieth century history.''
*''See [[Denial of the Armenian Genocide]] or in other words, a ''closer'' version of the '''real''' history.''
 
I think these comments are a ''wee'' bit provocative. What do you all think? <tt class="plainlinks">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoi]][[User talk:Khoikhoi|khoi]]</tt> 03:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Is there are relevant policy? Seems to me that having users be up-front about their biases is useful to the community. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] 03:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:While provocative, he isn't pointing to some off-wiki activist site, he's pointing to the Wikipedia article about the issue. At worst, he's a jerk, at best, he's up front and honest about his biases. A review of his talk page shows that he acknowledges that there were massacres, but that he doesn't think the turks should have to pay reparations and such. He's not looking to be aggresive about it, and not looking to provoke a fight. I'd say it falls under 'nothing to see here'. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] 03:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC) (as an added comment, consider [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Should_this_threat_be_take_seriously.3F] as a good example of geniune problem denials)[[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] 03:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Agreed. I personally think that it is rather brave to be able to admit one's personal biases up front. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 03:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Well, I have a problem with it. ''This user is against the Armenian Diaspora's efforts to rewrite the twentieth century history'' is quite inflammatory; if I were Armenian, I'd be ticked. Heck, I'm not Armenian and I'm ticked. If he does not believe in the accepted account of the Armenian Genocide, fine, but that statement goes too far. For someone working on articles related to Armenia, it is highly inappropriate for him to post a <s>viewpoint</s> attack like that. I also have an issue with his second comment; rephrasing it might help some so it, again, does not sound as derogatory. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 03:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::Again, I think it's great that a person working on articles about Armenia makes his POV so transparent. That should be helpful to anyone wanting to remove anything he writes. So be ticked, but so what? You didn't answer me whether there's a policy about being provocative on user pages. Is there? Anybody know? And is there a policy about non-admins like me commenting on this page? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] 04:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Non admins (me too!) are welcome to comment. Come join the fray. <tt>:-)</tt> --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 04:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::I agree with [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] - this is a user page that's at issue, not an article. It's inflammatory, but it helps provide context in which to assess the user's edits of substantive articles.[[User:Simon Dodd|Simon Dodd]] 04:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::(edit conflict) In response to your first question, see [[WP:UP#What_can_I_not_have_on_my_user_page.3F]]. In response to your second question, no; you can comment here. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 04:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Would this be classified as a polemical statement? I'll admit that my knowledge of the Armenian/Ottoman situation is minimal at best, and mostly comes from an Armenian friend down the hall of my dorm my freshman year of college, but I would classify it as such. Is this incorrect? —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 04:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I mostly agree with Khoikhoi's and Tariqabjotu's comments: if he simply said "this user believes the 1915-1923 period must be more closely studied/reexamined" or "this user supports Armenian-Turkish dialogue on the events of 1915-1923", it wouldn't be problematic at all. To just characterize all diaspora Armenians as simply having a bone to pick to against the nation of Turkey or say ''atrocities by Armenian terrorists towards the innocent Ottoman people'' seems to go too far. His position should be known but he doesn't have to use language that will guarantee to elicit a (negative) response.--[[User:MarshallBagramyan|MarshallBagramyan]] 04:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I think it's a polemical statement, and inappropriate. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] asked Maestroka to remove the statement, and Maestroka responded that it wasn't polemical: [[User_talk:Fadix#Requesting_you_to_remove]]. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 05:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::Absolutely, it's inappropriate. I have removed it.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 08:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
It would have been better if Khoikhoi informed me of this discussion beforehand, but I would like to add my opinion to this debate any ways.
First of all, I changed my talk page, to make it clear that:
* I support dialogue between Armenians and Turks,
* I agree with historians that a tragedy has taken place,
* I am not provocative,
* I do not have any bias neither on the Armenian issue, nor Armenians,
 
I have many Turkish Armenian friends, who share my opinions or insist on calling the events a genocide, but they are still my friends and I am still theirs. A different opinion should be seen as a plus, especially on an issue that is currently being debated by historians. See quote below, from Armenian genocide article:
<blockquote>
A number of Western academics in the field of Ottoman history, including Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), Heath Lowry (Princeton University), Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville), Gilles Veinstein (Collège de France),[59] Stanford J. Shaw (UCLA), J.C. Hurewitz (Columbia University), Guenter Lewy (University of Massachusetts), Roderic Davison (Central European University), Jeremy Salt (University of Melbourne),[60] Malcolm Yapp (University of London)[61], Rhoads Murphey (University of Birmingham) and Edward J. Erickson (retired U.S. Army officer)[62] have expressed doubts as to the genocidal character of the events. They offer the opinion that the weight of evidence instead points to serious inter-communal warfare, perpetrated by both Muslim and Christian irregular forces, aggravated by disease and famine, as the causes of suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. They acknowledge that the resulting death toll among the Armenian communities of the region was immense, but claim that much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers in eastern Anatolia.
On May 19, 1985, a total of 63 scholars from various American universities sent a letter to the U.S. House of Representatives opposing the House Joint Resolution 192 which defines the events of 1915 as genocide.
</blockquote>
Wikipedia should be a place where multiple views are embraced. A heated debate by historians cannot be ruled out by just a POV of one side, as we have mostly seen on Armenian genocide article. If you just search through the references of that article, you will see that more than half of the references are from Armenian sources (authors or websites), nearly no Turkish sources (I didn't see any), nearly no foreign historians, who are not of Armenian ancestry. So this is not POV, but my views on my user page are? Do you know what POV stands for? --[[User:Maestroka|Scientia]] [[User talk:Maestroka|<small>Potentia</small>]] 08:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:You are totally skipping the problem, you make charges on an entire people, claiming that they are attempting to rewrite history. I don't much care of what you think of the genocide. You can bold and take your entire userpage and claim it is fake. Your belief is your belief, your other sentence on the other hand is prejudicial, you have the right to think that, but keep your belief of what you think the Armenian Diaspora is attempting to do to yourself. As for the said 63 scholars. You should be informed that Israel Charny has published a followed, in which it was made clear that many of them recognize the genocide and that they signed it by believing it was a request to open the archives. This of course is out of subject. [[User:Fadix|''Fad'']] [[User talk:Fadix|(ix)]] 15:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: This is a provocative and polemical statement. The key is not the fact that he mentions his beliefs, which is fine, but his provocative manner of stating them and his clear polemical intent. This is against the username policy. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 09:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I don't see this as provocative. So called "Armenian Genocide" is only the title of interpretation of the events of 1915-1923 by one of the sides. The content, extent as well as intention of the communal warfare and massacres with participation of Turks, Kurds and Armenians in Anatolia during World War I and following years are a subject for historians to study and set the record straight in. It's sad that the single-sided interpretation, often ignoring the victims of either side, is enforced as "vision of history" but remains mostly a speculation for political goals on both sides. But provided the substantial amount of POV by one of the sides, insisting and implementing the "genocide" version and largely ignorance by the other side, I believe any user has a right and freedom to express position in regards to these events. And doing so in his own user space, should not attract such a major attention. In general, if the claim is strong and has any kind of basis, the counter opinion of one user will not be strong enough to question it. And the fact that there is so much sensitivity about any user posting his views in this regard, implies the weakness of the claim itself. [[User:Atabek|Atabek]] 10:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I agree with Khoikhoi, Tariqabjotu, and Marshall completely. If Maestroka really supported a closer friendship between Turks and Armenians then why would he say things such as "there have been atrocities by Armenian terrorists towards the innocent Ottoman people" or that the diaspora is making "efforts to rewrite the twentieth century history" if he wasn't trying to be provocative? Also, Atabek, like it or not, there was a genocide and yes the Armenians were the victims. There are photographs by Armin T. Wegner, testimonies by Robert Morgenthau, reports from the New York Times and other newspapers, World War I posters, French, Dutch, and German testimonies. There are even Kurds and Turks who have come forward today and admitted what really happened. Also note that the reason that "there is so much sensitivity about any user posting his views in this regard" is not because the claim of genocide is "weak" but because what Maestroka posted is offensive to other users. It would be like a neo-Nazi posting Holocaust-denial solgans all of his user page.
:For any Armenian, it hurts to see phrases like "so called 'Armenian Genocide'." The pain and suffering of the Armenian people is only prolonged by the denial of what happened in 1915-1917. I think one article from the New York Times put it best when it said: "To most Turks the events of 1915 seem distant, but in the Armenian consciousness they are a vivid and constant presence. Awareness of what is simply called 'the genocide' is acute in Armenian communities around the world. Often it is accompanied by fierce anger at Turkey's recalcitrance." [http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/armnm.htm] -- [[User:Aivazovsky|Aivazovsky]] 14:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Aivazovsky, whether it hurts you or not to call "so called 'Armenian Genocide'" is frankly immaterial to the discussion. You should also understand that it similarly hurts some Azeris or Turks, when the Armenian contributors concentrate solely on removing "genocide" or even "massacre" references from Western sources in regards to Azeri or Turkish victims. But again, "hurting" is a feeling and emotion, which is not a place for encyclopedia.
::Highlighting Armenian victims as "genocide" while ignoring scores of Turkish victims massacred during Russian-Armenian offensive in Anatolia (Van in particular), is also a curse upon those whose families and dears were killed. So instead of concentrating on highlighting one-sided pain as the only one, I think realization should be clear that any conflict and war has two sides and there are victims on both. Simply because Armenians lost in Dashnak objective of carving out Armenia out of half of Anatolia, does not mean that today all Turkish, and Kurdish for that matter, victims of Russian-Armenian offensive in Eastern Anatolia should be simply ignored.
::And here I would like you remind you that the state of Turkey was the one which built a monument for all soldiers, regardless of race, color, nation or side, which were killed in the Battle of Gallipoli fighting Turks, with the inscription:
:::''"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets where they lie side by side here in this country of ours… You the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. Having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well. — Mustafa Kemal"''
::I wish those who use only Armenian massacres in Anatolia and fuel extreme Turcophobia to make personal or group business or political gains would ever pay attention to these words and understand the pain in a conflict is mutual. Thanks. [[User:Atabek|Atabek]] 06:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Users engaging in personal attacks ==
 
At present, three editors [[User:Tom Voigt]], [[User:Labyrinth13]] and [[User:Zdefector]] are engaging in a series of personal attacks against each other at the [[Zodiac killer]] entry on this discussion page thread: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zodiac_Killer#Continued_counterproductive_badmouthing "Continued counterproductive badmouthing"]. I have requested three times that everyone (myself included) should simply cease and desist and walk away, but I fear that things are only going to get more personal there. A warning or some sort of intervention by an admin before this gets farther out of hand would be a huge help. Thanks. [[User:Labyrinth13|Labyrinth13]] 13:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I'm looking into it.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 13:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[User:Imam Khamenei=Islam ]] ==
 
{{resolved|1=User [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User:Imam_Khamenei%3DIslam blocked] as sockpuppet. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 19:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
Inappropriate user name? [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 06:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Wouldnt have a clue. but it could be. [[User:Danny 20000|dwilliams]] 06:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::<small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Danny 20000|Danny 20000]] ([[User talk:Danny 20000|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Danny 200000|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 06:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::A discussion has been started at [[WP:RFCN]]. Does not require admin attention until the discussion has finished. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 06:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I listed it here, since RFCN has been listed for deletion. [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 06:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Yeah, I just realized upon clicking the link. Well, the name doesn't seem too defamatory since Iman Khamenei is actually Islamic... I'm not sure, so you need someone else's opinion on it. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 07:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::My concern is not over its being defamatory, but over its being argumentative. [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 07:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::I don't think it's argumentative ''per se'', but definitely not [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]]...that said, there's no guideline even that says usernames need to be NPOV... [[User:TShilo12|TShilo12]] 07:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::You mean, other than in the [[Wikipedia::Username policy|Username '''''policy''''']] page which says '''Promotion of a controversial or potentially inflammatory point of view '''? [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 07:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::::I don't see what's controversial or potentially inflammatory about it. Would you take the same view of a username [[User:Pope=Christianity]]? It's not something everyone's going to agree with, but it isn't controversial (even if someone actually believes it, it's not going to cause an argument nor similar symptom of controversy) nor potentially inflammatory (nobody's going to start a war over it). Any "controversy" is only in the extent to which it leads to hyperrule-mongering. [[User:TShilo12|TShilo12]] 08:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::The username is making the contention that Khamenei is the epitome of Islam, which many, including many Muslims, would disagree with. I am sure that many Protestants would disagree that the Pope is epitome of Christianity. [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 08:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::[[User:Pope=Christianity]] would certainly be controversial and inflammatory, as is this username in question.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 08:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I think both of you are conflating some otherwise nameless imam with [[Ayatollah Khomeini]], for starters, something I will concede my hypothetical example exascerbates... A better choice would have been something more along the lines of [[User:Pastor Anderson=Christianity]]. [[User:TShilo12|TShilo12]] 08:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Well it depends on the point of view of the religion. I suspect if someone put [[User:Jesus Christ=Christianity]], no one will complain much? But this name seems to have too much conflicts, so maybe we could put a kind reminder on his talk page about changing usernames? --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 08:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: It's inappropriate. Usernames are not for polemical statements. The user should be asked to select a more suitable username. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 09:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:: Khamenei is not some otherwise nameless iman ( see [[Ali Khamenei]] ), as User:TShilo12 thinks. [[User:JoJan|JoJan]] 09:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Make that three people conflating now. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 09:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:So its settled. Ask the user to change the name, and if its a empty account, wait for a few days then indef. block. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 09:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
[[User:Pope=Christianity]] would be strongly offensive to a great many Eastern Orthodox, who regard the Papacy as schismatic if not heretical, and to most Protestants. Similarly, this is doubtless offensive to many Sunnis. If Khamenei ''equals'' Islam, they are not part of it. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:There are more Popes than just the Bishop of Rome. Khameini/Khomeini/Khamenei/etc. is a ''very'' common surname in Iran, hence my above charges of inappropriate (and what I'm increasingly beginning to suspect is bias due to ignorance) conflation of [[imam]] Khamenei with "famous" people ([[ayatollah]]s, in this case) who happen to bear the same surname, and also why I changed my example from "Pope" to "Pastor Anderson"... In any case, I am clearly failing to impress upon you how wrong your thinking is, nor do I have the time to expend on convincing you, nor sufficient interest in standing up any longer for someone [the user in question] who has, thus far, not bothered to say a word in hir defense. Happy Easter! [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 16:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::The user is blocked and is an obvious [[User:Patchouli]] sockpuppet anyway. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 19:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Regarding user Skyemoor and Dispute Tag Removal Vandalism ==
 
Per [[WP:VANDAL]]
 
:: '''Improper use of dispute tags'''
::: Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the page. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled. As a general rule, do not remove other people's dispute tags twice during a 24 hour period. Do not place dispute tags improperly, as in when there is no dispute, and the reason for placing the dispute tag is because a suggested edit has failed to meet consensus. Instead, follow WP:Consensus and accept that some edits will not meet consensus. Please note that placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism, and therefore the reverting of such edits is not exempt from the three-revert rule.
 
[[User:Skyemoor]] has twice removed a POV tag in bad faith on [[The Great Global Warming Swindle]]:
 
Diff 1: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=121181751] 13:19, 8 April 2007
 
Warning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASkyemoor&diff=121071103] 23:05, 7 April 2007
 
Diff 2: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=120938661] 09:30, 7 April 2007, and his edit summary says in part '''"WP:SPS does not affect me"'''
 
 
 
There is an ongoing discussion about the issues that are harming the POV of the article on the talk page, and none of the users, Skyemoor included, have made any good faith effort to see if those issues are resolved - and I daresay they are well aware that the issues are not resolved and claim otherwise because they take personal offense that [[WP:OWN|"Their"]] article has a POV tag on it.
 
I would appreciate administrator intervention and I must insist that no administrator who is actively involved in editing the GW pages can acceptably close this incident as there are many administrators who have shown to have their own [[WP:OWN]] issues with the GW pages. --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 16:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: Also, [[User:Raul654]] has just reverted out the POV tag less than one minute after I reinserted it. As he is clearly well aware the tag was removed from the page once before, he is also in violation of the general rule on removing POV tags. --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 16:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
A related discussion is happening [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Misuse_of_warning_templates|here]]. [[User:Natalie Erin|Natalie]] 17:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=118890397&oldid=118871728 exhorting disruption of consensus, pushing 3RR], and repeatedly reopening resolved issues. He has been abusing the use of tags in order to bludgeon other editors; hence when he abuses the tags, that is a form of vandalism, reverting of which is not vandalism or counted towards 3RR. --[[User:Skyemoor|Skyemoor]] 02:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: Again: Why does a dispute tag, for a dispute that is ongoing, bother you? It's because you claim [[WP:OWN|OWNership]] of the article that it bothers you so much. There are several users in the talk page who do not consider the matter resolved. The only person who is being abusive is '''you''', Skyemoor, by removing dispute tags improperly. Also, if I dug through your history, do you not think I would find examples of arguably disruptive editing in your edits? I believe the one that spurred this incident is already a fine example of that. --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 02:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: Also read the rule: '''Please note that placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism, and therefore the reverting of such edits is not exempt from the three-revert rule.''' --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 02:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Which also applies to your usage of the uw templates. -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 02:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::: Are you purporting that I broke 3RR on uw templates? --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 02:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::: No, that you improperly used the templates in a case which did not involve simple vandalism (''"placing or removal of dispute tags does not count as simple vandalism"''), where it was incivil to do so. -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 21:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::: I think you are confused in your reading of the policy. It's not vandalism in regards to 3RR, but it is certainly a form of vandalism. Otherwise it would not appear on the [[WP:VANDAL]] page (or it would be in the What Vandalism Is Not section). --[[User:Tjsynkral|Tjsynkral]] 23:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== ITV News ==
 
An addition to the entry for [[ITV News]] keeps being deleted by Redvers. The entry is a list of the current on screen correspondents for the station. It has been placed under the anchors entry.
 
The entries for [[Channel 4 News]], [[5 News]] and [[Sky News]] all contain similar entries. The [[BBC News]] page has it's correspondents listed on a different page (probably because there are so many of them).
 
Should Redvers be deleting this entry but leaving the same list in place for all other stations? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User: 213.219.44.247| 213.219.44.247]] ([[User talk: 213.219.44.247|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ 213.219.44.247|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
*This is not a matter for administrators. This is a matter for you and that editor to take up on [[Talk:ITV News]]. Neither of you have yet to do so. Note that if you both fail to take up the matter on the talk page and start revert-warring, the way that administrators ''will'' become involved will be by protecting the article to prevent you both from editing it in order to force you to use the talk page to communicate with one another. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 18:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:*Actually, I've been away for the weekend, so this blew up whilst I was mostly offline. I will now talk to the annoyed anon and tap him with the cluestick about listcruft and [[WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS]]. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid #F00; background-color:gold;">'''[[User:Redvers|&nbsp;REDVERS]]''' ↔ [[User talk:Redvers|SЯEVDEЯ&nbsp;]]</span></small> 19:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== 124.177.235.89 ==
 
{{resolved|1=Or seems to be? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 19:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
IP's contribs consist solely of [[Special:Contributions/124.177.235.89|abusing Riana and Moreschi]]. Block please? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:Blocked. Let's see if any more pop up. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 20:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::Er, there's been one every 2 days or so for the past 2/3 weeks (most of his stuff is in deleted revs of my userpage, I didn't feel like letting it lie around). Most likely the same person, under the impression that I am insulted by moronic trolling. Sad that they've moved on to other users, though, I was providing such a distraction for this fellow in his leisure time. &ndash; <span style="font-family:trebuchet ms">[[User:Riana|Riana]] <sup>[[User talk:Riana|<font color="seagreen">ऋ</font>]]</sup></span> 21:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Perhaps you're giving his life meaning. [[User:Natalie Erin|Natalie]] 23:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Oh yeah! High five anyone? :p &ndash; <span style="font-family:trebuchet ms">[[User:Riana|Riana]] <sup>[[User talk:Riana|<font color="seagreen">ऋ</font>]]</sup></span> 02:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Sockpuppet "revenge" cases ==
 
Seen this happen a few times now, the latest one being [[User:I m dude2002|I m dude2002]] filing a [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Iorek85|revenge case]] against the user who caught him, with pages upon pages of "evidence" that show no real pattern whatsoever. I'm tempted to block him for making a [[WP:POINT]], but I'd like some other opinions. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I block for that sort of thing. &ndash; [[User:Steel359|Steel]] 21:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::eh...you block for POINT violations? or you block for blocking for POINT violations? [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 21:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::[[WP:POINT]] violations are essentially disruptive acts, which are blockable offenses. —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 21:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::I take it you didn't see my tongue stuck in my cheek... :-p [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 22:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::I did see both. I merely responded to the first part, because the second part didn't fit the context at all. —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 22:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Eh...
:...''I'm tempted to block him for making a [[WP:POINT]]''... [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 21:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::''I block for that sort of thing. &ndash; [[User:Steel359|Steel]] 21:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)''
If you still don't understand, then, in the words of Goldmember, "there's no pleasing you!" :-) [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 22:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I see. Then never mind my stupidity. —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 22:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
*Well, for now the SSP case is locked down, which seems to contain any damage. If they'd like to return as a helpful contributor and benefit the project, then perhaps all is well; if they'd rather continue disruption and going for "revenge," then maybe it's time they took a little vacation. That's my superficial read on this, at least -- a "wait and see" approach to see their next move. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 23:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
*:Nifty. I'm nearly outta here. Have a good rest of Passover, or a nice coupla days, depending on your perspective! :-) [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]][[User talk:TShilo12|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk</sup>]] 23:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Luna's probably right, and hopefully that'll get the point across that disruption won't fly too far. Here's hoping! [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 00:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
This was not a revenge case. I think that the evidence I posted had a real pattern to it. There were ''many'' posts within minutes--even seconds--of one another. This is odd when the two users live eight timezones apart. There was also other odd behavior (which I detailed in my evidence section). You don't have to agree with the charges (and I'm not entirely sure that the motives behind its dismissal aren't political). But to say that I put them up as revenge is simply untrue. It was my intention to be a productive part of the wikipedia project by helping to bring the sockpuppets to justice.
At any rate, it's quite pointless to block me. I'm just going to go ahead and work out the two editing disputes I'm in right now and leave wikipedia, probably for good. I'm incredibly tired of the prevalent anti-Israeli mainstream here trying every political means to shut me up. Well, I guess it worked. In a few weeks, you won't hear from me again. Maybe some time in the future I'll change my mind and decide to come back. But it certainly won't be soon. This "neutral" encyclopedia is far from neutral.
Well, one day there will be an independent Palestine with or without my help. Until then, I'll have to think of other ways to hasten the coming of that glorious day. The best way to do that is by presenting neutral information, rather than anti-Israeli or anti-Arab propaganda. But this is the price I pay for being part of a tiny ethnicity which has no power in the world, when the power of the Arab world at large would like above all to silence Israel. That is not the way to achieve peace. [[User:I m dude2002|I m dude2002]] 22:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Ban evasion ==
 
Banned [[User:Hahahihihoho]] is evading (again) his block. He edits as [[User:Alkalada]]. For one of his many sock-puppets, refer to [[User:Thunderman]]. --[[User:PaxEquilibrium|PaxEquilibrium]] 22:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:We need more admins... we need more admins '''desperately'''... --[[User:PaxEquilibrium|PaxEquilibrium]] 23:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The reason nobody has responded is likely because you haven't told us anything (other than "user x is a sockpuppet") or given us anything to go on. Can you provide evidence (contrib patterns, checkuser, etc) that links the two accounts? &ndash; [[User:Steel359|Steel]] 23:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Legal threat? ==
 
{{resolved|1=&ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 19:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
Does [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJOHN_CENA1234&diff=121285125&oldid=107082233 this] constitute a legal threat? [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 22:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:I don't know of any legal item called "copb" but does it really matter? He was told he would be blocked if he vandalized and he just did it again, and that's all he's ever done. Blocked. [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] <small>[[User_talk:CanadianCaesar|Et tu, Brute?]]</small> 22:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:No. It's a childish whine. Just ignore it. Now back to the show... —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 22:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Mass deletions ==
 
: ''Before commenting, please read the brief [[#tupexplanation|explanations of the process]] below.''
 
However well intentioned, it seems [[User:Naconkantari|Naconkantari]] is going on a bit of a rampage at [[:Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages]]. Naconkantari has deleted thousands of pages in just a few hours time, including pages that were inactive for less than a week, and in one case, less than 9 hours. The has also included [[User:Alphachimp|alphachimp]]'s monobook.js and [[User talk:Dakilang Isagani]] which shouldn't have been in the category. I pointed this out to Nackokantari and the only response I got was that there is no way to check each page. Clearly, Naconkantari isn't checking any pages and is frequently deleting at a rate of 45 pages per minute. As the deletions have continued, I'm bringing this here for review. - [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 23:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:A few on the list are not suppose to be deleted, however well intentional it is. Deletion of a monobook.js? Can you tell him to stop, wait for us to check the list then delete? --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 23:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:It looks like the problem with [[User talk:Dakilang Isagani]] was that he was blocked because of a previous bad username, and the Username Blocked template put the page in the category, and then when the user account was moved, so it was fine and no longer blocked. Pages like that need to be removed from the category. I don't understand how [[User:Alphachimp/monobook.js]] was and still is in the category. Anyway, most of the usernames are blatantly deletable, just have to be more careful. —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 23:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:The pages simply should not be mass deleted. There are pages in there that are sockpuppet pages and need to be retagged, there are pages that are 9 hours old and should be in there for at least, I would think, a week, etc. I appreciate all the work Naconkantari did, but I feel most of it should be reversed. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 23:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I'm just trying to remove all the socks from the category, although most of the users were indef blocked. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 23:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:The sockpuppet issue is what originally pulled me into this problem. The talk page for [[User:Benjiwolf]] (a disruptive puppeteer) was deleted, leaving a red-link on pages I've been watching. I restored the page, pointed it out to Naconkantari, and yet s/he has deleted it again. - [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 23:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::For old accounts, what does it matter if the page is still tagged? Most of them aren't tagged in the first place. —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 23:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I personally don't care if it's tagged, but the talk page of a a current/active puppeteer should not be deleted. - [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 23:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::::What's it matter? The block log ''should'' contain any pertinent information (see [[WP:DENY]]). [[User:John Reaves|John Reaves]] [[User talk:John Reaves|(talk)]] 23:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
The comment, ''If you want to go through and review them, that's fine with me. I'm not going to do so as the pages are supposed to be temporary. There's just no feasible way to check every single page in that category'', on Naconkantari's talk page is a bit perturbing. Since when do administrators run through backlogs blindly? --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 23:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:When the backlogs have months of crap in them and haven't been cleaned since the category was started. There is no reason to keep 99% of the pages in this category. The other 1% of pages should not be in the category if they are in any way important. The editors have been indefblocked and their pages should be removed. If there is an issue with a sockpuppeter, then don't place the page in the temporary category. Use a different template or something. This huge mass of pages does not need to be kept and should be cleaned out as soon as possible. [[User:Naconkantari|Naconkantari]] 23:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
::Please take note of the notice at the top of the category: "Please do not delete pages tagged as sockpuppets. They should not be in this category in the first place (...) but if they are, please leave them (....) a number of administrators expressed their concern that many were being removed, making things difficult for them, and have requested that this not happen in future." The notice freely admits that these pages are miscategorized, asks that they not be deleted, gives a reason why, and yet you continue to delete them? --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 23:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Why do the sockpuppet pages need to be kept? —[[User:Centrx|Centrx]]→[[User talk:Centrx|''talk'']]&nbsp;&bull; 00:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Evidence. In case they create a new sock. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 00:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Precisely. Not everyone is an admin, and some of the most helpful users at [[WP:SSP]] are not, or were not until recently, able to view deleted pages. Deleting these pages leaves a mass of red links all over the place, leaving non-admins incapable of helping. - [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 00:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::What information does the userpage provide that the blocklog or a subpage on SSP could not? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Naconkantari|Naconkantari]] ([[User talk:Naconkantari|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Naconkantari|contribs]]) 00:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>
::::: A link within [[Special:Whatlinkshere]] to whatever page the sock is found. What makes you think users are going to bother adding pages to a subpage? Block logs aren't searchable, either. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 07:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::: You can use [[Special:Whatlinkshere]] on a deleted page, [http://www.google.ca/search?q=site:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:+%22Wikipedia+sockpuppets%22+Blu+Aardvark search sockpuppet names], or [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets|see a list of sockpuppets by puppeteer]]. —<small>{[[WP:ADMIN|admin]]} [[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 08:44:17, 09 April 2007 (UTC)</small>
::::::: I think you understood something different to what I meant. How are those categories going to be populated, if the pages including sockpuppet tags are deleted? [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 22:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: The pages including sockpuppet tags are not deleted. The sockpuppet deletions in this discussion are caused by a script problem, not common practice. —<small>{[[WP:ADMIN|admin]]} [[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 00:44:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)</small>
 
Oh look, another example of an admin unilaterally using a bot or bot-like functionality to address backlogs with little regard for whether things get done correctly. If we had a reasonable adminbot approval process, maybe someone could write a proper deletion bot that would only clear out pages that are from accounts that are over a month old and not marked as sockpuppets (or whatever other criteria the community feels is important). I don't condone what Naconkantari has been doing, but I think the recurrences of issues like this is symptomatic of a larger problem. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 00:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
*The only "reasonable adminbot approval process" is a stamp with the word "NO" on it. -[[User:Hit bull, win steak|Hit bull, win steak]]<sup>[[User talk:Hit bull, win steak|(Moo!)]]</sup> 13:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
If keeping sockpuppet pages around is so important, then why does the template automatically categorize to temporary pages? [[User:John Reaves|John Reaves]] [[User talk:John Reaves|(talk)]] 00:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The sock temps. don't categorize to temporary pages. It's the indef. block ones that do. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 00:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:It doesn't. Many editors will add a {{tl|indefblockeduser}} because the {{tl|sockpuppet}} does not mention an indefinite block in the same way that {{tl|SockpuppetProven}} does. -- [[User:Zzuuzz|zzuuzz]]<sup>[[User_talk:Zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 00:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Exactly. I think we need to make a new block temp. saying that their indef. blocked but are socks... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 00:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::*Doesn't [[Template:SockpuppetProven]] say that? --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 00:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Oh. I forgot about that temp.... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 00:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Also, {{tl|sockblock}} for the puppets. - [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 01:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we agree the user pages need to be reviewed? Or will it take DRV to get over the inertia? Can we suspend all deletions from Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages until we fix the sockpuppet issue? --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 00:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Agree with that, although it will take a huge amount of time, given the 8000 or so users listed. I've only reviewed around 200...--[[User:Kzrulzuall|Kzrulzuall]] 01:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::No, there is no reason for them to exist. [[User:John Reaves|John Reaves]] [[User talk:John Reaves|(talk)]] 01:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I would think an analysis could easily be done by a bot. —[[User:Bbatsell|Bbatsell]] 01:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:A bot could just check for sock tags, however admin bots aren't allowed. I suppose it could just make a big list, that admins could click through. <small>[[User:HighInBC|<sup>High</sup><sub>InBC</sub>]]<sup>(Need help? [[User_talk:HighInBC|Ask me]])</sup></small> 02:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::And the date they were added to the category (via whatever template). Yeah, I meant just prepare a report, not to actually do the deletions. —[[User:Bbatsell|Bbatsell]] 02:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: This is a very minor thing and I'm surprised it was brought to this page where it has really produced nothing but drama. If some pages were wrongly deleted, they can be undeleted at the press of a button. If this is because they're being wrongly placed in the category [[:Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages]] (which it shouldn't anyone to discover, is solely for pages that do not need to be retained), they should no longer be placed in the category. --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 06:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::I'd disagree that it has produced nothing but drama. If a new process including a bot that can actually analyze these pages and make the deletions easier has come out of it, then it was very much worth while. We've also discovered what is causing the problem: people tagging the user as indef in addition to the sock tags. [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 07:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Heh, let's not forget about geniuses like me tagging their monobooks as indefinitely blocked users :) [[User:Alphachimp|<span style="color:MidnightBlue">'''alphachimp'''</span>]] 07:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::That too. Although if you figure that one out, let me know. I tried to test a few tools from your monobook a week or so ago and it kept telling me I'd been {{tl|schoolblock}}ed. Confused the hell out of me. [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]] 07:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
<span id="tupexplanation"></span>
The deletion of old user pages has been discussed repeatedly, with the previous discussion at "[[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 3|User pages deleted by User:Pathoschild]]" on deletion review. The practice is well-established, with the reasoning laid out by [[Wikipedia:Deny recognition]] (which ''just'' explains the reasoning, and has no other meaning or enforceability). User pages belonging to sockpuppets, banned users, users blocked following arbitration cases, and sockpuppeteers should ''not'' be deleted, as these arguably serve a useful purpose; [[User:Pathosbot|Pathosbot]] occasionally corrects the templates on those pages.
 
For all users tagging sockpuppets, you can help keep them out of the category by using the sockpuppet block templates. In particular:
* Confirmed puppets: {{[[template:blockedsock|blockedsock]]|''username''}}
* Suspected puppets: {{[[template:sockpuppet|sockpuppet]]|''username''|blocked}}
* Sockpuppet masters: {{[[template:sockpuppeteer|sockpuppeteer]]|blocked}}
* Checkuser: {{[[template:sockpuppetCheckuser|sockpuppetCheckuser]]|''username''|''checkuser request page''}}
 
The problem here is not the practice itself, which is well-established, but Naconkantari's deletion tool. We appreciate the help, but some basic safeguards (such as not deleting anything in a sockpuppet or banned-user category) are needed. Ideally, this can be integrated into his tool and everyone will live happily ever after.
 
...[[WP:DENY|except]] the vandals, of course. —<small>{[[WP:ADMIN|admin]]} [[User talk:Pathoschild/s|Pathoschild]] 07:12:19, 09 April 2007 (UTC)</small>
 
:Exactly. I just deleted a chunk of userpages older than 15 days or so which were purely the indef block template. There were a couple that needed fixing, though: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Hinomaruuu&diff=prev&oldid=121377429] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Agent_Jones_81&diff=prev&oldid=121377371] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Agent_Brown_81&diff=prev&oldid=121377333] This seems to be the source of the issue; all it takes is a little bit of care to check if there's two tags, not one, on the userpage. You could even write a script which discriminates between this, and it'd solve the problem of "bad" deletions. Cheers, '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 09:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Well, I guess all I can say to you admins is, "Hop to it!" I'd help out if I could, but I can't. <tt>:-(</tt> --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 17:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:If this is ongoing, he needs to be blocked for using a malfunctioning automated tool. However, this backlog certainly does need to be looked at. Maybe [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Reform|if we had more admins]]... --[[User Talk:Random832|Random832]] 18:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The tool is not malfunctioning. It is working exactly as it is intended. The editors that place the incorrect tags are the ones that should be at fault. If editors can not place the correct tags on a supposedly important page, they should leave the tagging to someone who can properly tag pages. [[User:Naconkantari|<font color="red">Nacon</font><font color="gray">'''kantari'''</font>]] 20:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Oguz1 ==
 
Oguz1 is evading his ban using different ips, they all link from New Jersey also. [[User:Artaxiad|Artaxiad]] 23:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 
*{{user|Oguz1}}
*{{user|69.125.198.137}}
*{{user|205.148.53.200}}
 
Check ban link & userpages; user is blocked, not banned. -- [[User:Ben|<span title="Formerly ''Benedict the Moor''">'''''Ben'''''</span>]]&ensp;<small><sup>[[User talk:Ben|'''TALK''']]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ben|'''HIST''']]</sub></small> 05:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Harrassment and personal attacks by {{user|Jenniferpowell }} ==
 
{{user|Jenniferpowell}}, who I suspect is the blocked user {{User|81.62.5.51}}, is harassing other users by launching sexist personal attacks. While checking on some personal attacks from {{user|81.62.5.51}}, I noticed a huge advertisement for an organisation added to the biography [[Mukhtaran Bibi]], which I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mukhtaran_Bibi&diff=121300595&oldid=121300300 removed] per [[WP:NOT]] and [[WP:SPAM]]. {{User|The Behnam}} added some maintenance tags to the page ({{tl|cleanup}}). This caused the anon ip to launch personal attacks on me, {{user|The Behnam}}, and {{user|Bakasuprman}}.
 
Now, after the anon IP has been blocked for personal attacks, {{user|Jenniferpowell}} surfaces and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ragib&diff=next&oldid=121304589 pastes the same kind of personal attacks]. Some of the comments made here are borderline threats. I request others to look into this.
 
For the record, my ONLY edit to the page in question was the diff I provided above. Thank you. --[[User:Ragib|Ragib]] 00:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:She is quite clearly the same person doing the same attacks, and if you consider that the IP got a block already, it only makes sense to extend this immediately to Jenniferpowell. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 00:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::It is also worth noting that she vandalized this page too [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=121307892&oldid=121307575]. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 00:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::(edit conflict)Per this diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=121307892&oldid=121307575], there may be more to this situation than initially presented. Her edits, whih removed content somewhat strangely, also inclue indicating there's an content dispute on another article. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] 00:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::(editcon)Here are her attacks on me. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bakasuprman&diff=prev&oldid=121298344 pompous ass/wife beater] , [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABakasuprman&diff=121297651&oldid=121060038 sexist pig], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThe_Behnam&diff=121302794&oldid=121298969 mischaracterizing my religion].<b>[[User:Bakasuprman|<font color="purple">Baka</font>]][[User talk:Bakasuprman|<font color="red">man</font>]]</b> 00:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
 
:::(edit conflict) As mentioned earlier, the ONLY edit related to this by me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mukhtaran_Bibi&diff=121300595&oldid=121300300 was this removal] of advertisements per [[WP:NOT]]. I don't know of any other edit by myself with anything even tangentially related to this article (which I've never edited before). Thanks. --[[User:Ragib|Ragib]] 00:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
 
Can somebody just block her before she causes more damage and throws around more insults? [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 00:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:I gave her a warning (which she promptly blanked) but we will see if she reigns in her behavior. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 01:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Of course she blanked it. That is the same thing she would do under her IP a few minutes ago. At this point she has done nearly a dozen personal attacks and has already been blocked under an IP. I don't understand why she should be tolerated further. She is thoroughly disruptive. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 01:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I've given her another, quite firm and I hope reasonably polite warning. If she does produce one more edit like that, a diff here will be sufficient for the first in a series of escalating blocks. [[User:Splash|Splash]] - [[User talk:Splash|tk]] 01:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:After at least three warnings she continued to make rude remarks about other editors and then told me to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Irishguy&diff=prev&oldid=121313987 stop drinking their kool-aid] since I chose to not agree with her assertions. She now has a 24 hour block because she is clearly failing to get the message. Obviously, if anyone disagrees, feel free to unblock. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 01:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Thanks. She probably should have gotten that for evading a block anyway. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 01:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Possibly, but it seemed pretty clear she was going to earn this one on her own. Which she did. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 01:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Well earned, too. 24 hours is restraint on your part, if anything. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 01:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Right, yes. However, Irishguy, I don't think the template you used is ever so accurate. She was not blocked for vandalism, but for gross incivility. [[User:Splash|Splash]] - [[User talk:Splash|tk]] 01:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::You are correct. It has been altered accordingly. I just wasn't thinking when I put the block1 template up. Apologies. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 01:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
 
Now she has requested to be unblocked, pretending to be innocent. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 01:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:No worries, it has been rejected. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 02:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Since she returned to editing as [[User:81.62.54.135|81.62.54.135]] while her block is still active, I blocked the IP for 24 hours and extended the block on [[USer:Jenniferpowell|Jenniferpowell]] for 48 hours. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 23:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:...and then she returned as [[User:71.202.237.244|71.202.237.244]]. She doesn't appear to understand. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 23:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Outrageous remark, backed by Admin? ==
 
{{resolved|1=Or seems to be? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 23:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
I have come across an extremely serious breach of standards here on Wikipedia. It concerns one editor encouraging another editor to do an extreme deed. I don't know the depths of this dispute, but this remark under the circumstances is totally intolerable, and I may have to bring this to Jimbo Wales, and the way WP has dealt with the issue. The quote is ''or at least followup on your threats with decisive action'', and the link is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PatPeter&diff=121265352&oldid=121264866]. It's for you to investigate. -[[User:86.42.153.154|86.42.153.154]] 00:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:The user quickly realized the comment was unnecessary and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:PatPeter&diff=next&oldid=121265597 retracted] it. - '''[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="mediumblue">auburn</font><font color="darkorange">pilot</font>]]''' [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 01:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:: it not enough just wipe out that extreme attack and everything is OKAY. An apology is called for here , and a blocking. -[[User:86.42.153.154|86.42.153.154]] 01:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Wait, what will the blocking do? I mean, it is the apology that matters, right? [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 01:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I think the apology is implicit in the user retracting the comment. This is the Internet, this particular conversation was heated, we make mistakes, the user recognized his or her mistake and retracted the comment. An apology may be warranted and may be forthcoming, but dragging this out at ANI is unnecessary. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 01:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Well, editors are being blocked for much lesser attacks. This attack is ultra extremely offensive and should at the very least be challenged. It is the worst attack that I have ever seen on Wikipedia in my three years here. It's your call. -[[User:86.42.153.154|86.42.153.154]] 01:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Three years? This IP has only been editing today. Do you have another account? <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 01:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::In response to your whole comment, "No." --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 01:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
 
There is no continuing disruption and the statement was retracted, much like a fourth revert. I don't see any reason for a block, as these blocks are not meant to be punitive, last I checked. [[User:The Behnam|The Behnam]] 01:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
: Agreed. Is the user disrupting Wikipedia to make a [[WP:POINT]]? No. Did he or she violate the 3RR rule? No. Is he or she deliberately comprimising the integrity of Wikipedia? No. On top of all that, he or she retracted his or her comment. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 01:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::This is a isolated incident. The editors that have been blocked for much "lesser attacks" have received warnings and have PAed despite it. And they didn't retract their comments like he did. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 01:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Well, I hope that I haven't caused any offense to anybody by bringing this issue to your attention. I really do believe that personal attacks where editors encourage self destruction to other editors should not be tolerated for one second. -[[User:86.42.153.154|86.42.153.154]] 01:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::No worries, thanks for brining it up. It is always good to engage in discussion and clear up any misconceptions. <tt>:-)</tt> Regards, [[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 01:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Thanks, there are no worries for me here. I would be concerned for the well being of others, whoever they are. I am not looking for punishment (blocking), as I mentioned earlier, but I did suggest it, as no amount of punishment can redeem some situations. I would like to take this incident up with Jimbo later.-[[User:86.42.153.154|86.42.153.154]] 01:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I've blocked the IP for a week for disruption and probable sockpuppetry. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 18:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Extended to 1 month for additional sockpuppet block evasion. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 00:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[User talk:EuropeanLynx]] ==
 
I blocked this user for a week for edit warring on [[Nazi skinhead]] and [[Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice]] after using an IP. Is this someone we've blocked before? He seems to know what he's doing. [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="green">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="purple">ka</font>]] 02:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:It's the same editor that was username blocked as [[User:ProudAryan]], which tells you pretty much everything you need to know. <font face="Verdana">[[User:One Night In Hackney|<span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:One Night In Hackney|303]]''</sub></font> 02:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Time for a community ban? [[User talk:BenAveling|Ben Aveling]] 07:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Bit early for that, although I can see that being a likely end result. <font face="Verdana">[[User:One Night In Hackney|<span style="color:#009">One Night In Hackney</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:One Night In Hackney|303]]''</sub></font> 12:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Fake Sock Notice ==
 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Cosmos416&diff=120892470&oldid=107122410 This] is a bad joke (obviously, no block log, but how many think to check?) [[User:Rudrasharman|rudra]] 04:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABuddhipriya&diff=121231496&oldid=121011279 And this] also today as vandalism, which was quickly reverted by an administrator, but only a short block on the user. Note that both of these incidents involve Hindu issues. [[User:Buddhipriya|Buddhipriya]] 04:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
: Unrelated, I'd think, unless Philosopher1 is (or is in contact with someone) in Spain. [[User:Rudrasharman|rudra]] 04:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::My concern is that this may be evidence of remote puppetry. I suspect that Philosopher1 is Maleabroad, who has been soliciting meatpuppets. See: [http://hinduunity.org/hinduunity/viewtopic.php?p=2025&sid=25f333f2e186ded57c9eab3ea3cc2dcf This thread] and [http://hinduunity.org/hinduunity/viewtopic.php?t=229&sid=25f333f2e186ded57c9eab3ea3cc2dcf this one] suggest that there may be [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppets]] involved, too. Previous investigations of Maleabroad have determined that he appears to be at a Canadian University. For general information on Maleabroad see:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Abecedare/Maleabroad]. [[User:Buddhipriya|Buddhipriya]] 04:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::: Hmm, [[open proxy|open proxies]] didn't occur to me. Inevitable, I suppose. [[User:Rudrasharman|rudra]] 05:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
: I was the admin who removed the sock tag that Philosopher1 placed on your userpage, and also blocked that editor. They got a 31 hour block for 3RR and vandalism but I couldn't definitively point to them as being a sock. The only connection, as you say, was Hindu issues - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 06:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Alison, thank you again for your help the other day. Your quick response to he vandalism was great! I agree that the jury is still out on this potential sock. My antennae are tingling because of the fact that the last major sweep for Maleabroad socks resulted in some discussion about activating the investigation process to contact the Canadian university where he seems to operate from (as confirmed by multiple socks run through checkuser). After that idea was floated, his activity stopped, and now we see a pattern of edits that may suggest he has found a workaround for the ___location problem. All of this is theory, and more data would be needed before making a firm conclusion. [[User:Buddhipriya|Buddhipriya]] 17:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Abuse and threats from [[User:Isarig]] ==
 
I must once again report {{User|Isarig}} for his constant verbal abuse. He has repeatedly called me a liar despite my asking him to stop and despite the fact that he was the one misrepresenting things. I am really sick of his abuse. It is in explicit violation of [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:AGF]]. I asked him to stop several times in the discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Request_for_edit here], and he continued, ending up by threatening to report me to AN/I. However, he is the one being abusive, so I am reporting him. And this is far from the first time he has threatened to file phony reports against me. At the end of this discussion - in which he defended a particular version of the page - I gave in to many of his changes because I don't feel like arguing with him any more. Instead of celebrating his victory, he called me a liar and threatened me, and then made a massive reversion of the article, going back on the version of the page that he himself was supporting and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute&diff=121345463&oldid=121321182 reverting to a far more objectionable version] of the page, deleting much sourced and relevant content without discussion. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 04:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Another pot/kettle black situation. Yes, he did call you a liar, but I can understand his frustration. You have repeatedly made a claim which appears to be false. That is, you are claiming that a statement is not relevant because of the age of it. While the statement in question is indeed old, that does not make it irrelevant, because of the fact that it has been repeated more recently. Please try to respond to the issues Isarig has raised. Regards, [[User talk:BenAveling|Ben Aveling]] 07:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::That's false. I pointed out that the statement was about a 1996 interview and not a 2004 video. That is manifestly true; the source says it himself. The question is not whether it is relevant; the question is what is it specifically about -- it is about the 1996 interview. Isarig hid that fact by ellipsing out the part of the statement where the author specifically says he is referring to a 1996 interview. I changed that but Isarig deleted the change, again hiding the fact that it refers to a 1996 interview, not a 2004 video. I don't understand his "frustration." Please try to respond to the issue I raised here, which is the absurd harrassment and personal attacks by Isarig. Thanks. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 09:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I remember [[User:Durova]] contemplating an arbitration that would involve both of you. This posting is another step towards arbitration. I don't know what you think of this possibility, csloat, but I have a presentiment that you're unlikely to emerge from an arbitration with flying colors. [[User:Beit Or|Beit]] [[User talk:Beit Or|Or]] 15:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Yup, this has been simmering for several months. What steps at dispute resolution have you tried? <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 18:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::I have tried dealing directly with Isarig and asking him to stop. I have tried mediation on a couple of pages; Isarig withdrew from one of them and simply refused to participate on the other. I have tried contacting administrators directly (including Durova). I remember Durova was contemplating some sort of enforced mediation between Isarig and I, but he decided to block Armon instead (who was deleting sourced content with deceptive edit summaries at the time). I really don't know what else to do. I am not concerned about "flying colors" here; I simply want to edit in peace. I feel that I have positive contributions to make to this encyclopedia, but I don't think I can do it when I am constantly harrassed by another user every time I make an edit to a page relating to the Middle East. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 18:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::You don't know what else to do? Let me make some suggestions: (1) stop using misleading and false claims against those who disagree with you. As an example, in the paragraph above, you claim I "refused" another mediation, which is simply untrue. (2) stop using the tactic of accusing others of what you are constantly doing - personal attacks, claims of deception, etc... [[User:Isarig|Isarig]] 20:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::::Ed Poor tried to mediate the page and you did not participate. I don't think the claim was misleading; if you are willing to participate, I think that would be a great step forward.
::::::::See, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Ed Poor may have offered to mediate a certain page - he never asked me directly and there was never any formal mediation request - so I did not and could not refuse it. You know all this, yet chose to misleadingly describe my actions as "simply refused to participate on the other", when you know concede that all that actually happened was that an offer of informal mediation was made by Ed Poor to parties unspecified, and I did not participate. If you truly want to edit in peace, I suggest you look long and hard at how much your misleading editing plays a part in the problems you are experiencing. [[User:Isarig|Isarig]] 21:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::::By the way, I forgot to mention that I have also tried RfCs on the relevant pages in the past, but I don't think anyone else wants to confront Isarig either. I am unilaterally [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute&diff=121510638&oldid=121344477 backing off] of the MEMRI page and letting Isarig [[WP:OWN|own it]], even though he has unethically distorted a quotation from Robert Fisk, as I have shown. I just don't have the energy or time to fight with this user. He has frequently noted that his main goal is to frustrate me or to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Commodore_Sloat&diff=prev&oldid=113082686 get me blocked]; he does not actually appear interested in improving the encyclopedia. Unfortunately, he is winning this immature dispute, since no admin seems willing to tell him that his behavior should be modified, even though he refuses to negotiate with anyone he disagrees with, and constantly violates [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:AGF]]. I have had interactions with editors I disagree with in the past, but never has it been this unpleasant. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 21:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::And this is another example of the above. What I clarified to you was that my goal is 'to see WP edited according to its policies, and I want editors who flaunt those policies, and make a point of doing so, to be blocked.' [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Commodore_Sloat&diff=next&oldid=113126101]- you omit this , and allege my goal is to have you personally blocked. You seem incapable of making a single contribution to the Talk pages without at least one misleading, false and offensive statement. [[User:Isarig|Isarig]] 21:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Sigh. What you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Commodore_Sloat&diff=prev&oldid=113082686 wrote] was "Nothing would please me more than seeing you blocked for a long time for such blatant flaunting of one of WP most basic policies." I understand that you are offering a different interpretation of that statement; all I'm asking is that you stop personally attacking me with every post you make. Seriously. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 22:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
(outdent) My question regarded formal dispute resolution attempts. Contacting individual administrators or posting to noticeboards doesn't fit into the sort of thing ArbCom would consider when deciding whether to accept a proposed case. You're welcome to try other dispute resolution options. From the way policy and content issues dovetail at your dispute I suggest you take a serious look at [[WP:RFAR]] or [[WP:CEM]]. Community enforceable mediation is an experimental thing and, yes, I've started it. If either of you are uncomfortable having me as a mediator I could assign one of the program's trainees to take your case. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 22:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I don't have a problem with you as a mediator. I think CEM looks like a reasonable alternative. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 22:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::You can request a case at [[Wikipedia:Community enforceable mediation/Requests]]. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 22:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Done. Thanks. [[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 22:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== strong-arm tactics from a group of editors, content revert and POV RfC ==
 
a few editors who appear to be closely working with each other have been acting rather hostile today, all swarming over my edits at once and reverting my inclusion of major verifiable English-language sources and other minor edits on various articles ([[Avicenna]], [[Al-Farabi]], [[Amir Khusro]], and [[List of Persian poets and authors]]) and even completely modifying my Request for comment (RFC) for [[Avicenna]] article to make it one sided POV, ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_comment%2FBiographies&diff=121349639&oldid=121348545 compare the wording here to see which one is more NPOV]) and then reverting my attempt to bring back the NPOV wording. For lack of better word this appears to be a sabotage and arm-twisting by several older users, who stop at nothing by using everything from veiled threats by placing very "friendly" notes on my talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWeiszman&diff=121277827&oldid=121277109] to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAvicenna&diff=121347894&oldid=121248357 repeatedly pretending Wikipedia rules favor one particular user's POV and misinterpreting the Wikipedia rules]. While the content dispute would be hopefully dealt by the RFC, the immediate concern is to have these users edit in good faith and cease from reverting pages and otherwise modifying words by making them POV and unbalanced. [[User:Weiszman|Weiszman]] 05:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Looks like a content dispute to me, pure and simple. Regarding [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies]], I don't see either version as perfectly NPOV, in particular, your preferred version leaves out what appear to be important facts. That is, you keep removing a very plausible claim that the references you want to include are flawed. I've tried to find a NPOV voice. I suggest you try to address what appears to be the valid concern of your 'opponents' in this matter; it seems to me that they may have a point. Whether or not they are right or wrong, it is important that you follow wikipedia policy while you discuss the issue with them. Regards, [[User talk:BenAveling|Ben Aveling]] 07:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::This is why I've included a diff for everyone to clearly see what is the dispute about and to verify independently each and every source. It's unfortunate that the diff is removed at the RFC page. Here are the four sources I've inserted which are all quotes and thus make misinterpretation (which is a later claim by those who opose this information) impossible:
 
1) Arab descent according to other sources, [http://books.google.com/books?vid=0s1CMQWq2_QDzCJdpM&id=EQAkAAAAMAAJ&q=ibn-Sina+avicenna+descent&dq=ibn-Sina+avicenna+descent&pgis=1 Herbert Wendt. In Search of Adam: The Story of Man's Quest for the Truth about His Earliest Ancestors. Houghton, Mifflin, 1956, p. 6] and
 
2) [http://books.google.com/books?vid=0yPm4EmNhfNkPND9Vt&id=7QwcAAAAMAAJ&q=ibn+sina&pgis=1 Acta Geneticae Medicae Et Gemellologiae, International Society for Twin Studies, Società italiana di genetica medica, Permanent Committee for the International Congresses of Human Genetics, Istituto "Gregorio Mendel", 1952, p. 268]
 
3) "Ibn-Sina has been referred to as the Arab Galen." [http://books.google.com/books?vid=0JAy9IMPnQK8hGmGes&id=3CUgAAAAMAAJ&q=&dq= Philip Khuri Hitti. Makers of Arab History, 1968, p. 216]
 
4) "In him Arab science reached its climax."[http://books.google.com/books?vid=0yNkfk7jDVZ0vz3doV&id=-5MNAAAAIAAJ&q=&dq= Eugene A. Myers. Arabic Thought and the Western World in the Golden Age of Islam. 1964, p. 33] [[User:Weiszman|Weiszman]] 07:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== NPA ==
 
Can an admin take a look at this PA [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABaristarim&diff=121379223&oldid=121376320] - I had tagged one of his articles that he had created with a speedy deletion tag using NPWatcher. [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 08:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
And these [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABaristarim&diff=121380995&oldid=121379572] - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEngleham&diff=121381858&oldid=121371720]. Please look at the content of the posts, especially the second one and the first one.. [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 09:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I am sorry to be insisting on this, but can an admin take a look at these? Here is the latest post [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AThomas_Cannon&diff=121384985&oldid=121382821] - all of these posts are grave violations of NPA.. [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 09:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Looks like you have tried to warn him...an admin needs to step in and apply an appropriate remedy.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 09:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I just gave him a rather stern warning, in the form of a hit with the clue bat. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 09:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Thanks :) [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 09:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Strongly endorse the 24h given the Hitler comment. '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 10:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Have to say this Golbez...but your "warning" was so damn colorful...Also endorse the 24h block --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 10:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Just on a sidenote, I had read the article five times over before nominating it for speedy. When I had looked, there were no references, no wikifications, no nothing and a claim that the guy was famous because he wrote "Ancient and Modern Pederasty Investigated and Exemplify'd". I know that he is not a living person, however I wasn't even sure if it was someone pulling a prank on his friend or something. I am sorry that I don't know so much about 18th century gay-rights activists. :) [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 10:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:''Note:'' [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=121391942 Personal attack by IP], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=121391942 RPA reversion], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:125.244.164.75 block log], [[User talk:125.244.164.75|message]]. Review please. Cheers, '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 10:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:: Fully endorse, for block evasion and new personal attacks. --[[User:JoanneB|Joanne]][[User talk:JoanneB|B]] 10:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== GFDL ==
 
I originally provided the references/see also section of a contentious AfD-'''[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hindutva propaganda|deleted]]'''-on-'''[[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 April 9|DRV]]''' article to userspace at [[User:Fowler&fowler/HP References]], per a request on my talk page. However, since then, another administrator ({{admin-abbr|Dbachmann}}) has copy-pasted the whole article's text into that page. Can an uninvolved administrator (ie. not me [who deleted the article], and not Dbachmann [who is extremely involved and has even threatened to go to RfAr over the close]) please review whether this copy-paste move is GFDL-compliant, and whether it should be deleted; I'm suspecting it isn't (and as such, the latter revision should be deleted), but [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User:Fowler%26fowler/HP_References I think I'm "involved"]. Cheers, '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 10:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:All I can say is that Dbachmann's comments on your talk page weren't particularly civil or assuming good faith. As for the licensing, you'll need someone more experienced in the area. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 11:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Deleted. Ask him to move ArbCom if he presses. There have been gross civility problems with him in the past, where he resorted to racist comments. Nothing a good long block wouldn't solve. Good day. &mdash; [[User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|<font color="black">Nearly Headless Nick</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|<font color="black" title="Contributions"><sup>'''{C}'''</sup></font>]] 12:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Daniel.Bryant closed a 16 keep to 14 delete AfD as "delete". Is it surprising that I object? Daniel's concern whether my c&p was "GFDL-compliant" betrays a similarly poor awareness of GFDL as of his grasp of AfD procedure. As for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADaniel.Bryant&diff=121007676&oldid=120971926 my complaing] to Daniel, seeing it contains "I know you acted in good faith", I find it difficult to follow Kzrulzuall's judgement that I somehow wasn't "particularly assuming good faith". If I read Sir Nicholas' comment correctly, he seems to be advocating giving be a "good long block" over my objecting to an AfD closure as if I was some troll account that arrived on Wikipedia last week. That's plain bullying, and I begin to get the impression I am being set up as the next Giano: Giano was mobbed out of Wikipedia because he dared objecting to an RFA promotion in spite of no arguable consensus. I am protesting a deletion in the face of no arguable consensus. Whatever happened to following the rules? I am aware of [[WP:IAR]], but you cannot ignore the rules, and then clamp down on your critics based on technicalities, sorry. [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 14:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::People admitted that they made a ''mistake'' with Giano, and he is currently editing, even though he most certainly did not get in trouble just because he disagreed with a promotion. You can't invoke a supposed martyr who isn't even gone to defend your actions. Also, saying "I know you acted in good faith" does not mean you truly ''believe'' that, and you had just finished complaining that he's stupid and deleted it because of religious crusades. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 15:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:It is interesting to note one edit account visiting the pages of some involved parties [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bypd]. --[[User:Bhadani|Bhadani]] ([[User_talk:Bhadani|talk]]) 15:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) For [[GFDL]] compliance, if that was the only issue, it might be sufficient to put a link on the talk page to the page from which content was copied, with a note that the page history there provides the authorship info on a particular section. This is routinely done in merges, and is generally noncontroversial. However, there is obviously more going on here than a simple question of how to comply with the GFDL. After all, any text posted to wikipedia is normally under the GFDL, and therefore available to be sued elsewhere, including elsewhere on wikipedia, with proper attribution etc. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 15:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:GFDL was ''never'' the issue, and it is best known to Sir Nicholas himnself why he would choose to invoke "GFDL" as a reason for using his delete-button against my copy of the material under discussion in user-space. I ask people to ''look'' at the deleted material and judge for themselves if there can be ''any'' debate about its encyclopedicity (as opposed to its being precisely balanced, which would be a matter of debate, not AfD). AfD is not the place to complain about articles that are allegedly biased or that allegedly contain OR. This deletion is completely out of process and is a sign of the "trolls taking over": A bunch of single-topic accounts co-ordinated by a yahoo mailing list successfully getting material deleted from Wikipedia simply because it runs counter to their ideology. This is serious, people, and I would like to get a sober review of all this. I hope we can sort this out without going the painful route of RfC/RfAr: this is what we have AN/I for. I have spent three years on Wikipedia, people, and I can tell the difference between just not getting my way, and a flawed admin action, and I would not make a fuss here if I did not think the latter applies here. The only arguable outcomes Daniel could have chosen from under the circumstances were either '''merge/rename/redirect''' (taking a plunge), or '''no consensus''' (being non-committal). [[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 17:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::The deletion review is [[Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_9#Hindutva_propaganda|here]] and I would suggest that a consensus appears to be forming. [[User:Addhoc|Addhoc]] 19:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::And now I'm getting a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADaniel.Bryant&diff=121532415&oldid=121427568 lesson] in AfD closing, as well as being told like a schoolchild what I can and cannot do with my talk page. I am unfamiliar with Dbachmann's history, but if it's anything like what Nick hints at, then I can see why Dbachmann doesn't want to send it to RfAr...he just has to look at the Billy Ego-Sandstein case for a replica. '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 22:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::As I said before, he doesn't demonstrate civility with his edits. Dbachman, I find it hard to believe that you consider giving people "lessons" about this. It implies a huge amount of disdain on your part. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 22:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== out of my depth/Copyvio (Bang Gang article) ==
 
Hi, hitting the random button as I do, I came across [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang_Gang this] article, the bio section (besides being entirely wrong in tone), seems to be a straight lift from one of [http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Bardi+Johannsson%2C+tall+and+irregular+stands+as+a+man+belonging+to+an+Edward+Gorey+novel+casting+his+shadow+far+too+wide+to+fit+his+angular+form.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a those places]. I removed it as a copyvio but it has been returned and an editor claims they have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bang_Gang&diff=121405764&oldid=121405608 rights] to it, I am a bit out of my depth with copyright stuff as I find wikipedia policy on the matter so complex, I'm unsure how to follow it up. --[[User:Fredrick day|Fredrick day]] 12:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Left a notice on the user's talk page telling them to send an email to permissions-en and told them about [[WP:COI]]. <span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8pt;">[[User:x42bn6|<span style="font-weight: bold;">x42bn6</span>]] [[User_talk:x42bn6|Talk]]</span> 13:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Right, even if they do have permission and release this under GFDL, this would need heavy, heavy editing as it in no way conforms to [[WP:NPOV]]. It's basically a marketing puff piece.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 15:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Personal attacks at [[WT:SPAM]] ==
 
{{user|Georgekenney}} is upset with deletion of external links to a podcast that he produces, which he added while editing as an IP, and is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Spam#External_Links_Policy_re_Interviews complaining here]. I should probably not respond further to him, as anything I say seems to antagonize him. I also invite review of my deletion of the links, which I did under [[WP:COI]] concerns. [[User:RJASE1|RJASE1]] [[User talk:RJASE1| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 13:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I endorse your actions 100%; this guy really needs to calm down. [[User:Veinor|Veinor]] [[User_talk:Veinor|<sup>(talk to me)</sup>]] 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The personal attacks are continuing, I think he's just trolling at this point. [[User:RJASE1|RJASE1]] [[User talk:RJASE1| <sup>Talk</sup> ]] 01:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Trolling range (83.24.0.0/13) ==
 
See the history of [[Talk:Poznań]] -- it seems a troll from pl-wikipedia has made his way here. I'm reluctant to range-block without knowing all of the details here (I don't speak Polish). I was contacted in #wikipedia-en by [[:pl:User:Radomil]], an admin of pl-wikipedia. Anyone care to investigate this further? --[[User:Crazycomputers|Chris]] [[User talk:Crazycomputers|(talk)]] 13:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:That is an enormous range. It spans multiple netblocks which are claimed by the provider to be assigned to specific cities. --[[User:Gmaxwell|Gmaxwell]] 13:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Yes it is. Some edits have come from 83.16.0.0/13 too. It could be a commuter who has access from two different cities (83.23.0.0/16 and 83.27.0.0/16), so those could always be range blocked. --[[User:Crazycomputers|Chris]] [[User talk:Crazycomputers|(talk)]] 13:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:::MediaWiki won't let you block /13 anyway, so you would have to block the cities. Even so, you're blocking upwards of 64,000 addresses, which equals loads of collateral damage (especially if the range is dynamic, which it probably is). // [[User:PullToOpen|PTO]] 13:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::::A /13 is made up of 8 /16s -- a bit much to block under most any circumstances. Might be better off protecting the relevant pages, no? Neither solution is perfect, but if it's not a very active page, semi might involved a bit less collateral damage. Just a thought. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 18:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== How do we "Assume Good Faith" with an editor apparently pursuing a vendetta? ==
 
(Moved from [[WP:CN]] [[User:Navou|<font color="Blue">'''Navou'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Navou|'''<font color="Blue">banter</font>''']]</sup> 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
(Preamble note: This post relates to an article which had an edit war 2 weeks ago - that had consequences discussed on this page. An administrator imposed an (apparently indefinite) soft ban on myself and two other editors. The majority of opinion on this page expressed the view that the soft ban was imposed far too prematurely - without exploration of conflict resolution. Even though I think the soft ban was a mistake - and should be lifted - that is NOT the reason for this post. I mention this merely in full disclosure. The editor I am asking for advice about today was NOT one of those banned.)
 
A new Wikipedia account started appearing on Wikipedia on December 30, 2006. After a few minor edits on other articles - the editor settled as a single-issue editor on the [[Pete Townshend]] article.
 
The editor gave him/her-self the name [[User:Wiki-is-truth|Wiki-is-truth]].
 
The calm that had prevailed for 12 months on the article was over. An edit war erupted. Eventually it was resolved with a compromise and a straw poll set up by an administrator. The editor Wiki-is-truth signed off on the compromise:
 
'''Support the version above [[User:Wiki-is-truth|Wiki-is-truth]] 22:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)'''
 
After that - the editor disappeared and did not make a single appearance on Wikipedia till today (April 9, 2007). And then just to involve him/her-self in the same Pete Townshend matter. So far - just on the Talk Page.
 
On the surface there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. If a person chooses to be a single-issue editor - contributing to only one article or Talk Page - that is totally ok. If a person wishes to take a break from Wikipedia for a few weeks - that is totally ok.
 
The issue is this. Several editors believe (and have stated on the Pete Townshend Talk Page) that this person is present on Wikipedia for one primary purpose. To pursue a vendetta against Pete Townshend.
 
The evidence for this is in the multiple posts by the person on the Talk Page for the article on Pete Townshend. And in the history of his/her edits on the article.
 
Here is just the latest example fron the Talk Page - posted today:
 
'''"as a quick aside, I would rather call Townshend a promoter of child porn than a "blaggard"''' ''- [[User:Wiki-is-truth|Wiki-is-truth]] 14:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
''<br>
 
As editors - we are supposed to "Assume Good Faith". <br>
 
How are we supposed to do so in the face of someone who asserts that Pete Townshend (who the UK police thoroughly investigated for four months and then decided NOT to charge with any criminal offense) is "a promoter of child porn"? [[User:Davidpatrick|Davidpatrick]] 15:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Assume good faith is assuming an editor means well ''until there is clear evidence to the contrary'' - which has been reached and passed in this case. There is no need to walk in on someone stabbing a dying body and screaming "die! die!" and try to assume they are innocent. There is no reason to assume good faith when inaccurate, harmful content is added to an article repeatedly after explaining BIO, and V or ATT. So the answer is, dont AGF in this case, it is counter to any comensense approach and would require you freeze the logic centers of your brain solid, which I do not recommend. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 15:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Adding, if the editor has not yet edited the article and is not arguing for including unsourced defamitory content on the talk page, why worry? Upon more careful examination of the situation, I'm completely unclear on why you're here. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 16:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Artaxiad again ==
 
Can anyone please check the recent edits of {{User|Artaxiad}}? In my opinion his edits to other people’s user pages are nothing but vandalism. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Atabek&diff=prev&oldid=121423528] [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 15:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:He was warned, and he stopped. No action is necessary. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] [[User talk:Deskana|<small>(ya rly)</small>]] 15:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:: OK. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 16:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::It's interesting to note here that [[User:AdilBaguirov]], facing ban, is being blocked for a week(!) upon a simple revert violation, while [[User:Artaxiad]], facing a ban, and proven with harassment and now outright vandalism on my page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AAtabek&diff=121423528&oldid=114426875], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AAtabek&diff=121424621&oldid=121423559] is either being blocked for 24 hours or friendly warned. Don't you think this is only encouraging the behavior alike that of [[User:Artaxiad]]? [[User:Atabek|Atabek]] 16:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The content on your page is not appropriate so therefore I removed it. [[User:Artaxiad|Artaxiad]] 16:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::You added &lt;!-- Hi my name is Atabek, I am a asshole, I love guys. I also deny a genocide I'm a heartless guy. --&gt; to [[User:Atabek]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Atabek&diff=prev&oldid=121423528 here]. I don't think we can really [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] after that. [[User:Veinor|Veinor]] [[User_talk:Veinor|<sup>(talk to me)</sup>]] 16:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I think there is no way to assume good faith if we consider Artaxiad's edits generally.He/She wastes the community's valuable time.<font face="Brush Script MT" color="red" size="4">[[User:Makalp|Must</font><font color="white">.]]</font>[[User_talk:Makalp|<sup><font color="blue">''T'' </font></sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Makalp|<sup><font color="blue">'' C'' </font></sup>]] 16:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Artaxiad '''blocked''' 48 hours for user page vandalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Atabek&diff=prev&oldid=121423528] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Grandmaster&diff=prev&oldid=121422508]. Under the circumstances, I consider 48 hours to be generous. This was deliberate provocation in the face of an ongoing arbitration proceeding. [[User talk:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 16:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::And anyway, it's clear he'll be banned for a year very soon, and this is precisely why. It's like he figures he's going away, he might as well go in a blaze of stupid glory. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 19:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== ongoing harrasment ==
 
An editor continues to make disruptive comments.
 
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_community&diff=next&oldid=117614259]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=119159618]
#[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=119150768&oldid=119148917]
#Further, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=120159876&oldid=120035259 edit summary] does not explain any reason for the removal of text or references. Moreover, the editor is unwilling to engage in a discussion in a normal [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikipedia_community&curid=9902811&diff=120159105&oldid=120143714 manner.]
#Here is the latested [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&curid=9803346&diff=121359338&oldid=121341781 comment of harrassment and intimidation] to try to stop me from commenting on the talk page. :) - <b><font color="669966">[[User:QuackGuru|Mr.Gurü]]</font></b> (<font size="1"><sup>[[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/QuackGuru|contribs]]</sub></font>) 16:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
*Didn't those first three already get covered here on [[WP:ANI]]?--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:*Nevermind I found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive221#Appalling_personal_attack_by_Ned_Scott it].--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 18:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Quack, I've specifically pointed out to you before that the [[Wikipedia community]] redirect and comment were completely unrelated to you. The second diff was an issue already dealt with (I lost my cool, my bad, it happens, we laughed, we cried, we moved on). The rest is of your little evidence is me telling you to stop being disruptive (with very clear discussions on the relevant talk pages that show multiple editors agreeing that you are being disruptive). I guess you forgot to mention other people asking you to stop. Not sure how asking someone to stop being disruptive counts as harassment..
 
:[[Talk:Essjay controversy]], [[Talk:Wikipedia community]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Citizendium versus Wikipedia]], [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:QuackGuru]], and.. well, heck, picking links at random from his contribs will give people a good idea of what I mean. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 06:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
* Can you just forgive and forget, Quack? Ned Scott really did already publicly apologise... --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 06:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== User:Mkenshin10 ==
 
Hi. I am a new admin and I am seeking help from other admins. When [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Mkenshin10 blocking] {{vandal|Mkenshin10}} the recorded entry in the block log states that the block is anon. only and I don't know why this happened. The anon. only box does not appear, so, it is impossible for me to check it anyway. If it matters, I am using Firefox 2 under Win XP. Can any one tell me why this happened? Thanks. --[[User:Meno25|Meno25]] 17:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:No worries; anonymous-only applies solely to IPs. This is probably a temporary display bug that got into the MediaWiki trunk. Unless the bug applies to blocking itself rather than how the block log is rendered, then the account is blocked. —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 17:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== The Great Global Warming Swindle ==
 
The discussion on the [[The Great Global Warming Swindle]] talk page is notable for extensive attacks on individual editors. I've removed a few of the worst ones from recent comments, but I wonder if a couple of administrators would be kind enough to take a look. Please see [[Talk:The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle#POV_section_break_4]]. [[User:Wsiegmund|Walter Siegmund]] [[User_talk:Wsiegmund|(talk)]] 18:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:And one of these persons has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Misuse_of_warning_templates abusing tags] yesterday and today. --[[User:Skyemoor|Skyemoor]] 19:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== When is it appropriate for someone to edit an article they nominated for deletion, if the {{tl|afd}} is still underway? ==
 
[[User:PelleSmith]] instantiated [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Religious conversion and terrorism]].
 
While they said, in their nomination, that they would like to be proved wrong, in fact they are currently making extensive edits to the article which give the unfortunate appearance of trying to undermine attempts to improve it, so it will survive {{tl|afd}}.
 
Among the reasons they originally nominated it were that it was poorly referenced. So, I wonder, is it really appropriate for them to be '''removing references-''''', while the {{tl|afd}} is underway? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_conversion_and_terrorism&diff=121415916&oldid=121383643] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religious_conversion_and_terrorism&diff=next&oldid=121415916]
 
Cheers! -- [[User:Geo Swan|Geo Swan]] 19:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
: I'm not an administrator but articles can be edited while an AfD is underway, as long as the Afd tga is not removed. <b>[[User:Tellyaddict|<font color="FF4040">Te</font><font color="FF9900">ll</font><font color="FFEE00">y</font>]][[User talk:Tellyaddict|<font color="FFEE00">a</font><font color="FF9900">ddi</font><font color="FF4040">ct</font>]]</b> 19:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
: (edit conflict) Removing legit references in general is bad. Removing un-legit references, refactoring the text, and in general improving articles is good. Removing references during an AfD is not necessarily bad or good but certainly can, whether true or not, give the impression that the nom is trying to influence the votes. Anyone can edit an article at afd, even if they are the nom. Any rules against that would simply be [[WP:CREEP|instruction creep]]. So, are the references legit or not? Is the nom just massacring the text or is he or she appropriately refactoring it? --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 19:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::In my opinion the nominators edits, both ante-{{tl|afd}} and intra-{{tl|afd}} give the unfortunate appearance of damaging the article so that their afd will succeed, rather than sincere attempts to improve the article.
 
::We are all supposed to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. Is it possible that the nominator might think their edits actually improved the article? Well, they are already on record stating that the entire idea of the article is irredeemably flawed. I can't, for the life of me, understand how they could think they could improve an irredeemably flawed article. -- [[User:Geo Swan|Geo Swan]] 19:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::You are correct regarding how I view the very idea of the entry. However, that does not in any way mean that I'm going to sit by while bad references are added to it like cheap makeup. Also see below. Thanks.[[User:PelleSmith|PelleSmith]] 19:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. I don't start an AfD with the "entire idea of the article [as] irredeemably flawed". I start by assuming that (1) the article is not within the scope of an encyclcopedia or (2) the article is on a non-notable subject. If I impatient, started an AfD, and then later find additional information, I will most certainly add it. If anyone assumes anything other than good faith, then it is inappropriate on their part. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 19:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Please review the debate in question first. If you look at the AfD you will understand why the "entire idea of the article is irredeemably flawed", because the entry name itself is [[WP:OR]]. There is no way to save it under its current name. I have for the last month suggested moving it or merging it with another entry so as not to create the illusion that "religious conversion" factors into terrorism. If you looked at the AfD you would understand. There is overwhelming support for delete based upon this exact reason so please don't jump to those kinds of conclusions.[[User:PelleSmith|PelleSmith]] 19:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
As noted, articles may be edited during an AfD. Any edit that weakens any article is inappropriate (absent cause such as a BLP issue) whether or not there is an AfD pending. If there is concern that misguided editing might sway an AfD decision, a user participating in the AfD may wish to link to his or her preferred version of the article, to suggest that the version a prospective AfD !voter might encounter right at the moment is not the optimal or ultimate version. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 19:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::The "edits" that are under dispute are the removal of bad references. Many of the bad references were removed prior to the AfD, and have been removed once again during the AfD. Each time I have provided detailed edit summaries as to why these references are misleading, irrelevant or simply unreliable sources. I stand by each and every one of these edits, since keeping bad references in an article lacking good ones is the worst possible solution since it simply masks one of the problems. It should be noted that the overarching issue with the entry is [[WP:OR]] which the very name of the entry elicits.[[User:PelleSmith|PelleSmith]] 19:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I think NYBrad's solution is the correct one. If you're concerned sabotage might occur, just provide a link in the discussion to an oldid of the "best version." Articles nominated for AfD don't ''necessarily'' get deleted, and obviously anyone nominating for AfD has serious concerns about the article, so it's certainly conceivable they might try to fix it in the meantime. (Obviously, if someone's being deliberately disruptive or vandalizing that's not acceptable, but if, for example, an article is nominated for deletion as a POV fork, and the nominator cleans up the POV as best (s)he can in the meantime, nothing wrong with that.) [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 19:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::If the article content is blatantly inappropriate, then just because the AfD is continuing, it doesn't imply the article should be frozen. [[User:Addhoc|Addhoc]] 20:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Removing legit references is not good under any circumstances. The fact that it's up for AfD doesn't change what is or isn't acceptable. It's simply a little more unacceptable if an editor is trying to undermine the AfD. [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="green">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="purple">ka</font>]] 00:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[Alpha Phi Alpha]] being disrupted by sockpuppet of banned user ==
 
{{resolved}}
Hi, I am wondering whether or not to file a check user request on [[User:Osiris06]] being a sock of [[User:Mykungfu]]. MKFU's main target is this article as well as [[NPHC]] related articles. I have been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alpha_Phi_Alpha&action=history reverting] his edits on the page, but I am unsure if this breaches [[WP:3RR]] so far. '''<font color="teal" face="georgia">[[User:Real96|Real96]]</font>''' 19:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::Osirus blocked for repeated legal threats. You did not violate 3RR. [[User:Swatjester|<font color="red">&rArr;</font>]] [[User_talk:Swatjester|<font face="Euclid Fraktur"><font color="black">SWAT</font><font color="goldenrod">Jester</font></font>]] [[WP:CLIMBING|<small><sup>On Belay!</sup></small>]] 19:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Indefinite block for [[User:DavidYork71|DavidYork71]] ==
 
I've just blocked {{User|DavidYork71}} indefinitly after a long debate (see his [[User talk:DavidYork71|his talk page]] for more details). -- ''[[User:FayssalF|<font size="2px" face="Verdana"><font color="DarkSlateBlue">FayssalF</font></font>]]'' - <small>[[User talk:FayssalF|<font style="background: gold"><sup>''Wiki me up ®''</sup></font>]]</small> 19:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
I would like to add this diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aminz&diff=121394567&oldid=121380612] from my talk page and this section [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sarah#DavidYork71_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs_.E2.80.A2_page.C2.A0moves_.E2.80.A2_block.C2.A0user_.E2.80.A2_block.C2.A0log+.E2.80.A2_rfcu.29] from [[User:Sarah]]'s talk page. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 19:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:I support this indefinite block. Per Sarah, DavidYork71 acts as if the community doesn't exist and has no right to demand any modifications to his behavior, where ''very substantial'' modifications are sorely needed.[[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] 22:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::This editor has demonstrated time and time again that he is not here to write an [[WP:ENC|encyclopedia]]. Given his heavy and chronically repetitive [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ADavidYork71&diff=113287277&oldid=112278303 anti-Islam POV pushing] and editing that corresponds to that and his other disruptive editing (ie: creating an article called "[[autosodomy]]" and insisting that it was a "yogic art" and linking that to numerous [[yoga]] articles) and now his sockpuppetry, the project is much better off without this editor. {{User:Netscott/s1.js}} 08:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::: The latest sock of David: [[User:Anal Servitude]]; needs to be blocked. --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 08:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== {{user|NerriTunn}} ==
 
I'm fairly certain {{User|NerriTunn}} is behind the sudden explosion of users who are reverting all the regular editors on [[List of bisexual people]]. They all act like her, they all revert the exact same things, use snarky edit summaries that mock the summaries of those they are reverting, accuse me of being authoritarian on the talkpage for demanding we follow policy, and plead that we should use "common sense" - which mean we should list every single person who has had sex with both genders ever. She meanwhile, has conveniently vanished from the article history.
 
A lot of these accounts are SPAs. However, Nerri has apparently been trying to build up some of her accounts on different areas of the wiki - at least two users have edited exactly the same material, and one is adding vivien leigh to every list of ethnic people it can. But their contribs are all characterised by an obsession with old time Hollywood films and people who were believed to be bisexual of that period. I would appreciate if an admin could look into this because they keep reverting material which has been removed for the sake of BLP, RS and dammit, we shouldn't be listing so many people who were accused of being bisexual by this one person that one time. Here's a list of suspected sockpuppets:
 
* {{User|Ygr1}}
* {{User|Svsvtkag}}
* {{User|M.A.Dicker}}
* {{User|Fjykbgv}}
* {{User|JadaDeville}}
* {{IPvandal|62.64.215.84}}
* {{IPvandal|62.64.214.193}}
* {{IPvandal|62.64.222.225}}
* {{IPvandal|218.217.206.138}}
* {{IPvandal|218.217.208.85}}
 
 
And I think the similarities of names and addresses speak for themselves... [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Ugh, and I got the wrong noticeboard as well. Can I leave it here? [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 20:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::I've semiprotected the list. Haven't looked into the sockpuppetry part. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 22:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== 63.224.144.226 ==
 
{{resolved|1=IP already blocked. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 00:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)}}
Constant vandalism of page [[cnc]]. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:KJS77|KJS77]] ([[User talk:KJS77|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/KJS77|contribs]]){{#if:{{{2|}}}|&#32;{{{2}}}|}}.</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:You always get faster responses at [[WP:AIV]], where I have reported the user to for you. <span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8pt;">[[User:x42bn6|<span style="font-weight: bold;">x42bn6</span>]] [[User_talk:x42bn6|Talk]]</span> 20:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Indefinite block review ==
 
{{resolved|1=Or seems to be? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
{{user|ThepeoplefromNS}} began a campaign moving many (50+) articles from ''Article name'' to ''Article name is dead''. I initially blocked for one week. The user [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ThepeoplefromNS&diff=prev&oldid=121501526 contested the block] and then [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ThepeoplefromNS&diff=next&oldid=121501526 "approved" the request]. The editor requesting the block [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANmajdan&diff=121503044&oldid=121501872 asked] that I extend the block indefinitely in light of the user's statement. I agreed that giving the user's statement, this user shows no signs of ever being a good contributor to the project and will probably only continue his malicious behavior following the block, and so I extended the block indefinitely. I was wanting to get some other opinions on this block to see if this was the correct action <small>(as I am also a brand new admin)</small>. Thanks in advance.↔[[User:Nmajdan|<font style="font-size:11px; font-weight:bold; font-family:verdana, sans-serif;">NMajdan</font>]]&bull;[[User talk:Nmajdan|<font style="font-size:9px; font-family:verdana, sans-serif; color:#000000;">talk</font>]] 20:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Of course. Vandalism-only account = indef block. No problems at all with your actions (except to say that I would have skipped the 1 week block and gone straight to indef, but certainly can't fault you for that). —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 20:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, indef block is appropriate. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 21:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Yep, total nutjob. '''Endorse''' block and well done on both doing it and asking for confirmation. We're a benevolent cabal. &nbsp;<small><span style="border: 1px solid #F00; background-color:gold;">'''[[User:Redvers|&nbsp;REDVERS]]''' ↔ [[User talk:Redvers|SЯEVDEЯ&nbsp;]]</span></small> 21:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Endorse block. Nothing more to see here. [[WP:RBI]] is your friend. [[User:Naconkantari|<font color="red">Nacon</font><font color="gray">'''kantari'''</font>]] 21:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Concur with all above and endorse indefinite block. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 21:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Likewise<span style="font-size:95%">-- [[User:Nick|<font color="red">'''Nick'''</font>]]<sup> [[User talk:Nick|<font color="blue">'''t'''</font>]]</sup></span> 21:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::You know, kind of reminds me of willy on wheels. You know, pagemove vandal, moved article name to "article name...". Coincidence? Are there many users like this? Should they all be indef blocked? Is there policy against pagemove vandals? Thanks. &ndash; [[User:AstroHurricane001/ASTRO|<font color="blue">A</font>]][[User:AstroHurricane001|<font color="Purple">stroHur</font>]][[WP:WPTC|<font color="Gray">ricane</font>]][[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dinosaurs|<font color="green">00</font>]][[Comet McNaught|<font color="Red">1</font>]]<sup><font color="purple">([[User_talk:AstroHurricane001|Talk]]+[[Special:Contributions/AstroHurricane001|Contribs]]+[[User:AstroHurricane001/Userboxes|Ubx]])</font>(<font color="blue"><small>+[[User:AstroHurricane001/Sigs|sign here]]+[[Wikipedia:Editor_review/AstroHurricane001|How's my editing?]]</small></font>)</sup> 23:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::Seems covered by [[WP:VAND]], [[WP:BLOCK]], and general common sense. :) &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[User:Doctor11]] ==
 
Is [[User:Doctor11]] a violation of [[WP:USER]]? [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 22:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:How would you think it would be in violation? [[User:Naconkantari|<font color="red">Nacon</font><font color="gray">'''kantari'''</font>]] 22:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::Seems to be stating its existence is only to express a political opinion, rather than "facilitate communication among participants in its project to build an encyclopedia". But perhaps I'm misunderstanding its intent. [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 22:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::(edit conflict) I assume he means that the statement on the page saying ''I don't want to write pages and pages here so I will use this page solely to express my sympathy for the people of Iraq.'' is a violation of [[WP:USER]], specifically the no polemical statements part. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 22:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::I apologize for misunderstanding. I though that you meant the username. The user page is not appropriate and should be send to [[WP:MFD]]. [[User:Naconkantari|<font color="red">Nacon</font><font color="gray">'''kantari'''</font>]] 22:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:::No need, I just removed the polemical statements and asked him nicely not to readd it. — [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="000000">Moe</font>]] 22:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Ok, I just wasn't sure if we could edit their page like that or not. thanks for taking care of it. [[User:Not a dog|Not a dog]] 01:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[Universe]] ==
{{resolved|1=Or seems to be? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)}}
 
This article was moved to '''Earth's Universe''' today by another user and the history needs to be restored.--[[User:Jorfer|JEF]] 22:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:It seems [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universe&action=history intact]. [[User:Bbatsell]] fixed it. -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 22:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:The user who moved it started a new article at [[Universe]] that had to be deleted to make way for the move. I (or another admin) will restore it somewhere else upon request. —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 22:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Returning Devout Christian sockpuppet ==
 
{{resolved}}
{{User|212.51.199.173}} claims to be a shared IP but is still making the same kind of edits as he was before being blocked as a {{User|Devout Christian}} sock. --[[User:Ideogram|Ideogram]] 23:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Blocked for 2 weeks. --[[User:Coredesat|Core]][[User talk:Coredesat|<font color="#006449">desat</font>]] 00:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Anonymous UNT vandals on euphonium page again ==
 
IP addresses from range 129.120.xx.xx ([[University of North Texas]] system computers) are vandalizing the euphonium page again (changing every instance of the word "euphonium" to baritone, just a day after a full protection was lifted. Last week, a single IP address that had done most of the vandalism (129.120.244.17) was blocked for 24 hrs, after which vandalism resumed immediately, and when the same vandalism started to crop up from other UNT addresses a system-wide block was put in effect, ostensibly for a week, but it's been less than a week and the vandals are back, so I guess somehow they got the block lifted.
 
I should also note that whoever is doing this has continuously posed as me (Robert McDaniel), even going so far as to post my cell phone number on the [[Talk:Euphonium]] page and then vandalizing my [[User:NetherlandishYankee|user page]]. I have absolutely no doubt that the vandalism will continue unabated until decisive action is taken. PLEASE institute a medium-term system-wide block of 129.120 IP addresses.
 
--[[User:NetherlandishYankee|NetherlandishYankee]] 23:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
*I don't think we're going to block an entire college campus which has, besides the euphoniumisms and some other vandalism, dozens if not hundreds of legitimate edits from editors some of whom have contributions dating back to 2004. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]]</small></sup> 00:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* This also came up on [[WP:RFP]] and I declined the request - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 00:11, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Alright, alright, I guess that was a bit extreme. I just REALLY want to avoid the situation that developed last week happening again. I'll keep you posted if anything else happens.
 
--[[User:NetherlandishYankee|NetherlandishYankee]] 00:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:If the vandal strikes again, warn them and then report them if they persist. If it gets really bad, we can review the semi-protect request. However, if they're posting personal info - report them immediately to [[WP:AIV]] and they will be blocked pretty sharpish. That kind of behaviour is harrassment - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 00:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== User:Burk Hale ==
 
{{User|Burk Hale}} needs a block. He persists in posting material in which copyright is claimed at the website that hosts the text at [[1957 Georgia Memorial to Congress]]. Burk Hale is also pushing extreme POV at the same article and others (arguing that the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution was never adopted; continuously referring to the US federal government as "subversive"). The blocking administrator might want to consider the POV pushing when blocking for the copyvio. I am not blocking because I have been involved in the dispute with Burk Hale at the Georgia Memorial article. · '''<font color="#709070">[[User:Jersyko|j e r s y k o]]</font>''' ''<font color="#007BA7" size="1">[[User talk:Jersyko|talk]]</font>'' · 23:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:The text is an engrossed state law, isn't it? I'm like 99% sure that's unequivocally in the public ___domain. It shouldn't be in the article (wikisource is probably the better ___location), but I don't think it's a copyvio. A quick glance leaves me with no doubt that he is a POV warrior, but I don't have enough time at the moment to read everything fully enough to block. —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 23:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 
::It's a state resolution. I have no idea whether Georgia claims copyright in its state resolutions or not; I suspect that this might be one of the few things that fall outside the purview of US federal copyright law, but I don't know for certain either way. However, the website that hosts the text in question does claim copyright in the text (I have no opinion on whether the claim is legitimate). · '''<font color="#709070">[[User:Jersyko|j e r s y k o]]</font>''' ''<font color="#007BA7" size="1">[[User talk:Jersyko|talk]]</font>'' · 00:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Err on the side of caution and keep it out for the time being. Besides, the article isn't the place to text dump that law even if it is PD. That is what we have wikisource for.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 00:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== AIV helperbot problem (possibly) ==
 
The [[WP:AIV]] helperbots removed [[USer:Deathtowiki|Deathtowiki]], [[USer:Deathtowiki1|Deathtowiki1]], and [[User:Deathtowiki2|Deathtowiki2]] as blocked by [[User:MichaelBillington|MichaelBillington]]. The problem is...I'm not seeing this in the block log. Is the log backed up or did something get hosed with the bots? <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 00:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
* I'm not seeing them in the block logs right now, but then again it looks like the recent changes history is getting backed up again. Note that Deathtowiki 3-7 also exist and are on AIV right now - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 00:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:(edit conflict) I just tried to block one of them, and couldn't, so the block log hasn't updated, which happens occasionally. The database was just locked, so it seems it was just a temporary slowdown. (I always thought they should come up with a better analogy than "slaves" catching up to their "master".) [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="green">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="purple">ka</font>]] 00:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
**I am simply concerned that if the problem is with the bots, then users are being removed that aren't blocked. The [[User:MichaelBillington|MichaelBillington's]] log [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=MichaelBillington shows that he blocked] Deathtowiki3, 4, 6, and 7 but there is no mention of the other three which theoretically should have been blocked previously. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 00:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
***Obviously the bots are getting feeds more up-to-date than the block log. Deathtowiki1,2,3, ''are'' blocked. Actually, it's come up about 3 times in the past month or so where someone blocked and it didn't show up at ALL in the block log, but the block was still there. It's either a bug or a database glitch where it lost some of the data. I don't think MediaWiki's queries are ACID-compliant, so it's possible that the user be blocked but an entry in the log be lost. —[[User:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#333;font-weight:bold;">bbatsell</span>]] [[User_talk:Bbatsell|<span style="color:#C46100;font-size:0.75em;">¿?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Bbatsell|<span style="color:#2C9191;">✍</span>]] 00:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
****OK. I had no idea this had been a problem in the past. Phantom blocks, eh? Strange... <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 00:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
*****Seems to happen a lot lately... First the contributions was slow by 4 hrs, now its the blocklog. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 00:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
******I've seen that happen, too, and I was ''really'' confused the first time, too -- unblocking and reblocking tends to fix the visible problem (just trying to re-block tends to turn up the "already blocked" error, so I guess the master DB, at least, seems to be aware of the block). &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<font color="#1E90FF">'''Luna Santin'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 00:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::*Wow, I didn't know this had happened to anyone else. A few weeks ago I blocked someone but it didn't show up in the log, and when I tried again it said they had already been blocked. Unblocking and reblocking fixed it, but now the log has an unblock first, which is weird. [[User:Natalie Erin|Natalie]] 01:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Big company spamming ==
 
Copied from WP:AIV: (Perhaps HP and team are not aware of the negative publicity associated with other big companies writing/influencing articles on their company/products.) How should this be handled? &mdash; [[User:{{{User|ERcheck}}}|{{{User|ERcheck}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|ERcheck}}}|talk]]) 01:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
* {{Vandal|HPOMteam}} is a single purpose account in violation of [[WP:USERNAME]] because it seems to ''Match the name of a well-known company or groups....'' The account's only contributions are to [[HP Output Management Solutions]], [[HP Output Server]] and [[Enterprise Output Management]] the former two which indicated in former revisions that the countent is copyrighted by Hewlett-Packard and used with explicit permission. --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 00:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
Note: An indefinite block was imposed. However, my question still stands. Is there a particular process for this/form letter to send to companies like HP? &mdash; [[User:{{{User|ERcheck}}}|{{{User|ERcheck}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|ERcheck}}}|talk]]) 01:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:If you feel it's necessary, notify the Foundation. They probably should handle anything like that. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 02:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::I've semiprotected the only page that wasn't speedied. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 03:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Systematic attack on [[Al Gore]] ==
 
Within the last 3 days, Al Gore has been vandalized by a bizzarre 5-edit method, Redirected to by the Sandbox, and redirected to from Stupidest person alive via Kensai Nakano. Related or not? [[User:Basketballfan1519|G.O.]] 01:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:I... I'm sorry, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 02:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Just garden variety vandalism. The vandal's been blocked. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 02:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[User:Overarchiver|Overarchiver]] ==
 
A strange user. His first edit was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Patricknoddy&diff=prev&oldid=120132813 to archive] [[User:Patricknoddy|Patricknoddy's]] talk page. Next he created a userpage which was taken from Patricknoddy's userpage and appears to be mocking Patricknoddy. Other than a comment on Patricknoddy's talk page today, he has no other edits. This appears to be a sock harassing Patricknoddy. <font color="Green">[[User:Irishguy|'''IrishGuy''']]</font> <sup><font color="Blue">[[User talk:Irishguy|''talk'']]</font></sup> 02:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:Blocked indefinitely as a harassment-only account, based on the comment on [[User talk:Patricknoddy]]. See [[User talk:Overarchiver]] for further comments. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 02:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Assumming he has another account, he can be autoblocked Brad, but with anon. only on. --[[User:TeckWiz|'''TeckWiz''']] <sup>[[User_talk:TeckWiz|Parlate]]</sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/TeckWiz|Contribs]]<sub>[[Special:Emailuser/TeckWiz|@]]</sub>(Lets go Yankees!)</small> 02:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Autoblocks always risk some collateral damage. Since I decided to let him continue editing under another account, there was no reason to risk any. If there is further harassment from another account the next block would be more sweeping, but he says he's stopped. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 02:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Shouldn't the userpage be deleted or blanked? It is definitely harassment... --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 03:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[User:Mozart Amadeus Wolfgang]]: Sockpuppet account? ==
 
This account was just created today on April 9 and responds to a 48 hour block I made on [[User:Bosniak]] back in mid-March. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jersey_Devil&diff=121511190&oldid=121241800] I'm not sure whom this is a sockpuppet account for but I thought I should just bring it to the attention of others here because I am not sure of what to do.--[[User:Jersey Devil|Jersey Devil]] 02:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:Well it doesn't really matter... The account would be blocked indef. in accordance to the [[WP:U|username policy]]. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 03:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Really? Which part of the username policy? [[User:Anchoress|Anchoress]] 04:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::The name "Mozart: doesn't really qualify as a ''the name of a well-known living or recently deceased person'' --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 04:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
:Yes, I wish people would read the username policy before reporting violations. <small>[[User:HighInBC|<sup>High</sup><sub>InBC</sub>]]<sup>(Need help? [[User_talk:HighInBC|Ask me]])</sup></small> 04:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[WP:ASSIST]] ==
 
I'm having trouble keeping some comments on the talk page. They keep being removed at [[WP:ASSIST]].([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AEditor_assistance&diff=121490418&oldid=121480978 direct link]) --[[User:CyclePat|CyclePat]] 03:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:I'm confused as to what you want. There's a dispute about whether or not that stuff ''should'' be included, and as you know, this isn't the "Please take my side" noticeboard. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 03:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Don't see how this requires admin intervention. Please note [[WP:CANVASS]] before putting it on unrelated places. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 03:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:One should point out that the "comments" CyclePat is complaining about is a move poll that he tried to force on [[WP:ASSIST]]. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 04:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::In response to me removal of his move poll, CyclePat posted a vandal warning template to my page, and wrote this dleightful comment: "You may be interested to know that [[propaganda]] is define as "one-sided information intended either to support or threaten a political or military group."[http://www.longman.co.uk/tt_seceng/resources/glosauth.htm] We have advertising attempts to destroy AMA by spreading accusations left and right. We also have, as describe on wikipedia, “Propaganda, in as… a corollary to [[censorship]] in which the same purpose is achieved, not by filling people's minds with approved information, but by preventing people from being confronted with opposing points of view.”[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda] In this case, the removal of comments from to the talk page of WP:ASSIST demonstrate how desperate the members of WP:ASSIST and to what extent they are truly willing to do go. A further technique is being used by WP:ASSIST which is called [[bandwagon]], inviting everyone to participate, and [[Reductio ad Hitlerum]], by suggesting and trying to "persuade a target audience to disapprove of an action (AMA) or idea by suggesting that the idea is popular with groups hated (AMA), feared, or held in contempt by the target audience." The conversation and comments regarding AMA and ASSIST (move page/merger), even if it is not a successful conversation as portrayed by some, is an important process of wikipedia’s “building concensus.” Removing the comments or blanking the page prior to finishing such a conversation is a violation of this fundamental rule and on top of that falls within the criteria of vandalism. I suggest the conversation be archived. Again, in short, removing it creates an unfair balance for WP:ASSIST and again, violated WP:VAN. --[[User:CyclePat|CyclePat]] 03:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)"
 
Someone who characterises a 100% rejection rate and several strongly worded warnings from various users as "desperate", "propaganda", and "advertising attempts to destroy AMA" clearly doesn't have the project in mind. I believe JzG said he would try to talk some sense in CyclePat - it appears to have had no effect whatsoever. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 04:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:Someone who removes such beautiful comments, which are so very constructive in helping build and understand EA, clearly (sarcastically) has the project in mind. (Not really!) You may wish to read [[WP:AGF]] and to see my comments at [[Wikipedia talk:editor assistance#Request move archive]] talk page (if you or someone hasn't already reverted them)... here is the permenant link just in case.([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AEditor_assistance&diff=121605670&oldid=121605590 link]). FYI: it talks about harassment. --[[User:CyclePat|CyclePat]] 04:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
CyclePat, I'm speechless. May I suggest that you check out [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith]] if you think that EA members are ''suggesting and trying to "persuade a target audience to disapprove of an action (AMA) or idea by suggesting that the idea is popular with groups hated (AMA), feared, or held in contempt by the target audience"''; additionally why is it bad that we are inviting everyone to participate?...hmm --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 05:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:And what is with the "gathered up and shot" comment? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AEditor_assistance&diff=121611868&oldid=121605670] [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 05:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::I came here to complain about that comment. The fact that it's a 'metaphor' doesn't diminish its offensiveness. [[User:Anchoress|Anchoress]] 05:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::For the benefit of everyone, CyclePat's "metaphor" was {{quotation|"I call EA a mutiny on a boat, and currently, the mutineers, instead of trying to fix ship have decided to bail into a little life boat. It's time the ship went back, even if we have to do it with our guns, and gather the mutineers. We need their help just as much as they need our help to make it out alive of the high sea. Personnally, I think they should all be gathered up and shot... forced to do one AMA case."}} This was during another of his attempts to force us to join AMA. To be honest, I can't think of such a post from someone who wasn't eventually indef blocked. Someone may wish to intervene before he starts trying to gather us up. [[User:Dev920|Dev920]] (Have a nice day!) 06:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::::A mutiny? So you have, in effect, an editor not just declaring [[WP:OWN|ownership]] on a page, but on a group of editors? That's just nuts. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 07:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== {{user|Saturation2}} - [[User:LegoAxiom1007]] redux ==
 
As evidenced on his talk page, this user is having a lot of problems with stupid reports to various noticeboard. And I feel stupid, because I completely failed to make any connection until he [[User talk:Amarkov|claimed to be sir Lego's brother]]. So, anyway, can we do the same "stop editing projectspace or you're out" thing, and then can we formally ban him when it's violated? -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 04:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:It should be noted that Saturation2 self-nommed a [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Saturation2|RFA]] that needs speedy closing. --[[User:Coredesat|Core]][[User talk:Coredesat|<font color="#006449">desat</font>]] 04:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::I've done enough IAR today, so can someone else please go do that? -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 04:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::Don't worry, left a warning on his talk, so if he does it again, he'll be <s>whacked with a sledgehammer</s> blocked. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 04:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) RFA closed. [[User:Navou|<font color="Blue">'''Navou'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Navou|'''<font color="Blue">banter</font>''']]</sup> 04:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm. New user. Using Twinkle a hell of a lot. Making a signature book. Appearing within two days of LegoAxiom's block. Does anyone else hear quacking?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龍</font>]]) 04:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Nope, but the duck dancing in front of my computer might be distracting me from it. -[[User:Amarkov|Amarkov]] <small>[[User_talk:Amarkov|moo!]]</small> 04:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Mallarddrakebotanics.JPG|100px|right]]
:: [[Duck test|What's that noise??]] :) - [[User:Alison|<font face="comic sans ms" color="green">Alison</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Alison|☺]]</sup> 05:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I believe it's a [[duck]]... though I could be wrong. Saturation2 seemed to have stopped editing now, but he definitely doesn't seem to be a newbie. [[WP:DUCK|Quack, Quack...]]. --[[User:Kzrulzuall|<font color="darkblue" face="Harlow Solid Italic">'''KZ'''</font>]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Kzrulzuall|<font color="green">'''Talk'''</font>]]• [[Special:Contributions/Kzrulzuall|Contribs]]</sup></small> 06:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== Personal attacks by vandal ==
 
[[User:193.188.12.20]] has vandalized articles and has made personal attacks. Please see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fuck&diff=prev&oldid=117016225], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fuck&diff=prev&oldid=118491267]. Also, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fuck&diff=prev&oldid=118491398], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eazy-E&diff=prev&oldid=118491822], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eazy-E&diff=prev&oldid=118491900], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Snoop_Dogg&diff=prev&oldid=118494155] appears to be vandalisim. This is user is at the very least a troll. [[User:Agha Nader|Agha Nader]] 04:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
:No activity since March 28. Follow up if problems resume. <font face="Verdana">[[User:Durova|<span style="color:#009">Durova</span>]]</font><sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 04:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== User:Certified.Gangsta ==
 
{{User|Certified.Gangsta}} is again engaged in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taiwanese_nationalism&action=history revert-warring]. I don't care enough about this particular article to continue this revert-war, but I strongly suggest close scrutiny of his overall pattern of reverting to his preferred version while pretending to be interested in discussion. --[[User:Ideogram|Ideogram]] 05:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:See [[WP:RFAR#Certified.Gangsta-Ideogram]]. '''[[User:Daniel.Bryant|<span style="color:#2E82F4">Daniel&nbsp;Bryant</span>]]''' 07:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
==WP:RM: A thin line between legitimate calling for attention and blatant canvassing==
A similar case has been recently discussed at this board: [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive218#AfD: is canvassing allowed?]]. This time I would like someone impartial to take a look at the developments of the [[WP:RM]] proposal, see [[Talk:Fântâna Albă incident#Canvassing_warning]].
 
The poll was strongly affected by a hectic campaign of canvassing by one side. Here are some entries:
 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mentatus&diff=prev&oldid=120434086 Se votează]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:NCurse&diff=prev&oldid=120434448 The vote is on]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Khoikhoi&diff=prev&oldid=120434617 A poll is now being conducted]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=prev&oldid=120434787 you may find this poll interesting too.],
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:K._Lastochka&diff=119175383&oldid=119025972 would you like to weigh in here],
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dahn&diff=120426628&oldid=120349109 By the way...].
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ES_Vic&diff=prev&oldid=121615684 Se votează]
And, I especially liked this one:
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Prester_John&diff=prev&oldid=121616045 As an anti-Communist, you may like to cast a vote].
 
Additionally, as per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:F%C3%A2nt%C3%A2na_Alb%C4%83_incident&diff=120732290&oldid=120727376 this] an unknown number of user were "mobilized" by email.
 
Several users unfolded a rage of incivilities at the talk page against the opposition to the move and were [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:F%C3%A2nt%C3%A2na_Alb%C4%83_incident&diff=120643400&oldid=120637491 warned] by an admin to stop.
 
I request an impartial look at the matter, the analysis of some user's behavior at the talk page and the conclusion of the poll to be made based on each side's arguments as the raw numbers here are certainly meaningless. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 06:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
== [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Pie_Man_360]] ==
 
Anyone willing to look thoroughly into the sole supporter's edit history? Highly uncivil and trollish support, and the userpage does not inspire confidence. Can anyone else find any really useful edits? &ndash; [[User talk:Chacor|Chacor]] 07:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:hi, did you want pie man to go through the process without receiving ONE SUPPORT? Well? [[User:El hombre de haha|El hombre de haha]] 07:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
::Is there something wrong with that? —<sup>[[User talk:Physicq210|<font color="000000">210</font>]]</sup>'''[[User:Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0" face="Comic Sans MS">physicq</font>]]''' (''[[Special:Contributions/Physicq210|<font color="#0000C0">c</font>]]'') 07:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I've seen that rainbow blinking text before... On ED.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龍</font>]]) 07:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 
 
=Admin Issues=
 
Ok, on my talk page, I've been having some problems with trolls from another site that I am affiliated with spamming it with rude comments and warnings for things I did not do. Since the Wiki guidelines state it is NOT prohibited to delete content on your own talk page, I did so, only to have people to keep reversing my deletions. Finally, I got fed up and put a message asking people to stop doing that. This seemed to work up until recently. An admin by the name of Hu12 kept reversing my deletions, giving me warnings about deleting talk page comments and warnings. I informed him about the fake warnings and also provided him with the quote from the guidelines that says my actions are allowed. Another individual also backed me up on this. He left another warning, not even responded to this message. I repeated it, and again he warned me. I asked him to stop, because it was becoming harassment, and he blocked me. I appealed the block, stating that I had done nothing that was against the guidelines. This block was turned down by an admin named auburnpilot, because of all the warnings I had got and because I had been blocked before. Not only is this unfair, since these things had nothing to do with my blockage, but she was also wrong. According to her, I was blocked three times, while, in reality, I was only blocked two. The first time was actually by her, and she did not even bother to post the three warnings until either after or at the same time she blocked me. The second time was after a mistaken warning that was revoked by the person who issued it BEFORE the block and the block was later removed. Now, to top it off, my page has been locked from editing. I have been treated extremely unfairly by these two admins. The guidelines state specifically that a user can delete their own talk pages. I would like my talk page to be unlocked and for these two admins to be at least talked to for their rude treatment of me.[[User:67.163.193.239|67.163.193.239]] 08:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)