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::Can you link to where it was decided that one single race counts as a championship title? [[User:Lazer-kitty|Lazer-kitty]] ([[User talk:Lazer-kitty|talk]]) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::No, I don't support that viewpoint. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 18:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
{{ping|Road Atlanta Turn 5}} Please undo your most recent change, it is against the consensus of these articles. Thanks. [[User:Lazer-kitty|Lazer-kitty]] ([[User talk:Lazer-kitty|talk]]) 16:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
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:::::::::The articles I see have Macau Grand Prix under the section of "Titles as X junior" so I have no idea which articles you're referring to. Please illustrate me on the specific articles you're referring to so I can get a cleaner idea on it. [[User:Road Atlanta Turn 5|Road Atlanta Turn 5]] ([[User talk:Road Atlanta Turn 5|talk]]) 17:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::I am happy to engage in that discussion once this page has been returned to previously established consensus, which will allow us to discuss in good faith whether or not to make the proposed change. Otherwise, I would prefer to move forward with the ANI rather than to continue to argue here. Thanks. [[User:Lazer-kitty|Lazer-kitty]] ([[User talk:Lazer-kitty|talk]]) 17:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::Please read [[
FIA FR World Cup is a title, like its name. But don't go take my word on that.[https://feederseries.net/2024/11/18/ugochukwu-takes-the-fr-world-cup-title-in-macau-amid-five-safety-car-periods-fia-fr-world-cup-macau-sunday-recap/ like here.] Have attention to [https://www.fia.com/news/ugochukwu-wins-2024-fia-fr-world-cup-faultless-weekend this news] provided by FIA, particulary the part "With this victory, Ugochukwu adds his name to an illustrious list and proved to the watching world that he has the talent and composure to surely see future success in the FIA’s senior single-seater categories.", so not just a race. [https://www.fia.com/news/what-dreams-may-come-fia-fr-world-cup-winners This] also clear states FR World Cup winners. For those that aren't inside single-seaters racing its easy to discover that FIA F3 World Cup (now disputed in FR machinery) is a very important event for drivers and teams looking for next talents. Maybe the discussion should focus here and not dozens of back and forward "you did this, you insulted me" Be civil.[[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 18:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
As multiple users have pointed out already, winning the Macau GP earns one the FIA World Cup title so yes that can be listed as a title for the years that title has been given out. It's not up to us to decide what a title is, the governing bodies do that for us![[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 18:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:Define "title". ;)
:My view: Cups have winners who lift a physical cup they won, championships have title champions. That was adhered to historically and there is a difference between them which has now been lost even by the FIA across their own regulations after definitions have already been set. To no surprise, usage and definitions are argued across Motorsport Wikipedia. So, it appears acceptable to interchange a lot of these terms, because ''sources exist'', so that is the position I will support even though it's not my preferred outcome. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 19:01, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::I will not attempt to define title because it's not up to me to do that. Governing bodies do that for us and we reflect the actual events. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 19:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::I don't know if FIA has this clear stated in their regulations, but sometimes competitions change their status from World Championship to World Cup and vice versa. It has to do with the number of continents where the competition is held (I think at least 3 to be World Championship) or the envolvement of factory teams vs private entries. It happened in WTTC/WTCR, in WEC there are World Championships for some categories and World Cups for anothers. The "gets a cup" argument, for me its not valid since you get a cup or a trophy by winning both a Championship and a Cup, and also a race, isn't useful to distinguish. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 19:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::You get super liscene points towards an FE or F1 super liscene so im.not sure how its not important [[User:Motorsportfan100|Motorsportfan100]] ([[User talk:Motorsportfan100|talk]]) 19:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::By winning macau [[User:Motorsportfan100|Motorsportfan100]] ([[User talk:Motorsportfan100|talk]]) 19:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::There's no definition from the FIA in the International Sporting Code. This gives the individual FIA departments, cups and championships' own regulations freedom to define it for themselves. These are sometimes prepared by the proposing ASN.
:::The Formula Regional World Cup regulations says it awards ''"one title, being the FIA Formula Regional World Cup for drivers"''. It's the only use of the word title in the document. So what do you call the driver who won it? Champion or winner, simply title-holder, or does it not matter? AFAIK, this was written by the FIA circuit racing department.
:::According to the World Rally Championship regs, there are titles awarded including World Rally Champion for Drivers, WRC2 Champion for Co-drivers etc, these make sense as 'titles'; congratulations you are 'world rally champion'. But one title is... WRC Masters Cup. Congratulations, you are the WRC Masters Cup! It doesn't make sense. This will be prepared by the FIA Rally department.
:::According to the regs, the GT World Cup does not have a title or declare itself as one. AFAIK, this was prepared by the Macau ASN and rubber stamped at the FIA.
:::There's no consistency, this is my key point. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 20:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::I've looke at other FIA cup competitions (not all off course) and they all refer there is a title. Macau GP competitions regulations have a bit different format but the content is more or less the same. FIA has been awarding a title to the Macau F3 event winner for quite a long time. That's undeniable. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 01:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::What is the title awarded though? Mr, Mrs, Dr, are titles IMO, something to describe a person. It's evolved to describe the championship/cup/tournament itself. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 10:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::What do you call the team who wins the FA Cup or the Carabao Cup? Aren't those titles? Just check [https://www.ldoceonline.com/Sport-topic/title here].
::::::The point 3 is your example (Mr., Sir), point 4 "the position of being the winner of an important sports competition". [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 11:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Maybe these are titles now, I cannot argue against that, but personally I would still call them Cup Winners, or even Champions informally. They haven't won a prestigious title IMO. A search on Newspapers.com for "FA Cup title" gives 1,517 results. Only 130 prior to 1992, but only 2 before 1971, arguably the beginning of commercial sport. That Cup began in 1871. "FA Cup" returns over 13,000 results before 1971.
:::::::An example in point 1 could be a book or film. Nobody says: "did you read the title I leant you last week", "He's the star of the title released over Summer". For me, point 4 evolved from somewhere and there has only really been organised sports since late 1800s (?), so it must be relatively recently acceptable to call the collective organisation of a competition/championship/cup/league itself, a title.
:::::::The first FIA Yearbook of Sport (1968) has regs saying this in Classification and Prizes of the ICM:
:::::::*''There will be an International Championship for Makes and a Cup for Grand Touring Cars''
:::::::*''The make with the highest total of points in the Championship (both prototypes and GTs) ... '''"will be granted the title of Champion."'''''
:::::::*''The make .... (in classification of GTs) "will be '''granted the Cup''' for Grand Touring cars."'' (No title)
:::::::This is what makes most sense to me.
:::::::Similarly in F1, the driver with the most points ''"will be declared Champion"'', a different way of saying a point 3 title without using 'title'. They will also ''"receive the Championship Cup and a Diploma from the FIA"''. However, no declarations or titles in the Manufacturers Cup: ''"A Cup will be awarded to the manufacturer..."'' Echo that for the ERC for Drivers and the Ladies' Cup within it. The European Trophy for Formula 2 is not surprisingly, a trophy to be won.
:::::::Apologies for the long post, I find this interesting. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 13:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::World is constantly changing so something that wasn't considered in the past can be now, or the meaning of the words can be slightly different too. But looking at your search for "FA cup title" I don't think it really shows if its a title or not. Sir is a title, but usually you don't use Sir and title in same phrase. That doesn't mean it isn't a title. I could use other (probably better) example. I think we should look: given any club that have won the FA club, will it be listed among the titles they have or not?
::::::::And as for F1 world manufacturers we have this examples about McLaren title [https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/facts-and-stats-mclarens-record-26-year-title-wait-ends-and-leclerc-scores.2eFJvtofZMatNNagF8f2NT 1] and [https://www.planetf1.com/news/abu-dhabi-grand-prix-2024-race-report 2].
::::::::But I agree its interesting discussing this things, especially the past and how the things evolved through history. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 17:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::''"I think we should look: given any club that have won the FA club, will it be listed among the titles they have or not?"''
:::::::::The club's websites can say different things. The [https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/competitions/2024-25/efac/rules-of-the-fa-challenge-cup-2024-25.ashx FA Cup rules] do not use the words title or champion. Very little there except ''"The Association shall loan the Trophy to the Club that wins the Competition."''
:::::::::Rule C.11. of the Premier League says ''"the Club which is at the top of the League Table following the completion of the Competition shall be the League Champions."''. This is the definition of the title (in capitals) bestowed on the club at the top of the table, else there's no point in the rule.
:::::::::See [https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230603125223-05-fa-cup-final-man-city-man-united-0603.jpg FA Cup winners], [https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?q=Carabao%20Cup%20Final%202024%20Results%20Cx&w=1280&h=720&c=5&rs=1&p=0 Carabao Cup winners], but [https://cdn.sillyseason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Premier-League-winners-list-by-year-All-time-past-winners-scaled.jpg Premier League Champions].
:::::::::If a list has competition wins such as "1978 FA Cup, 1985 Division 1, 1995 Champions' League, 2001 Premier League etc"; then these are (informal) [https://www.ldoceonline.com/Sport-topic/title type 1 titles], no? They are the names of the competitions, not the position bestowed upon the club? Which means to say a club that won the FA Cup title sounds as pointless as "Rpo.castro title makes some great edits on Wikipedia title." (If that's the same as the 'Sir' point you made I apologise) Look at the [https://www.ldoceonline.com/Sport-topic/title type 4 example with Tyson], they don't ''name'' the competition but the [[List of WBA world champions|Champion '''position''']] that Tyson won from those that could bestow it on him. F1 Champions in the examples you post are type 4 title holders, they are Champions.
:::::::::"FA Cup holders" and "FA Cup winners" sounds better than "FA Cup title holders" and "FA Cup title winners" as there's no title bestowed. "Premier League champions" or "the title holders" is better than "Championship title holders". Perhaps the simplest question could be is "winner" a title? No.
:::::::::Anyway, here's some FA Cup winner's links that cannot say this is wrong. They prefer the term "Honours" in general, to what you are calling 'titles'.
:::::::::*[https://www.manutd.com/en/History/Trophy-Room/ Man United]
:::::::::*[https://www.mancity.com/club/honours/team Man City]
:::::::::*[https://www.pnefc.net/club/history/club-history Preston]
:::::::::*[https://www.evertonfc.com/club/history/honours/honours-and-records Everton]
:::::::::[[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 19:10, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::In one hand we have something like "the position of being the winner of an important sports competition", in the other hand only if that competition is called "championship or they can be called champions". Stretchy no? Champions League Champions or Champions League winners? Is it a title? And Europa league? What about Olympic medalists? They aren't called champions but is it a title isn't it? And what about GP2? Its just a series, so just a winner not like the much different Fórmula 2?
::::::::::Using google to ask "who's the xxx(nationality)xxx club with more titles?" It's common to get results counting all the major competitions: National championships, cups, supercups and European competitions.
::::::::::Like [https://www.besoccer.com/new/top-10-clubs-with-most-titles-in-the-world-1143901 this case]. For a lot of people and media "titles", like the definition given in a post above are synonyms of "major competitions", "honours" or "trophies". Like discussed above, things might have started with a meaning and developed into a broader new one.
::::::::::And yes there is who can say FA Cup Titles. [https://www.transfermarkt.com/footballs-oldest-competition-the-teams-with-the-most-fa-cup-titles-of-all-time/view/news/431992 lije here] or [https://news.williamhill.com/football/fa-cup/top-five-most-successful-clubs/ here] (used at least 4 times in the articles).
::::::::::I stick with major competition like previous given definition or [https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/title this] unless a better one is given and that is widely accepted by people and media. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 22:41, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::One (usually) has to be a winner first to earn the title of champion. And being named 'championship' for the competition probably came after the first champions so I don't think it's important. Because, one doesn't even have to be competing in sport to be a champion - one can be a human rights or animal welfare champion for example. This is the etymological root of the word - [https://www.etymonline.com/word/champion someone who fights on behalf of another or a cause]. In my archaic way of looking at things, this is the prestigiousness of 'the title' that I talk of.
:::::::::::And still IMO, there shouldn't be more than one Champion (at least in the same class/weight/category/gender/age awarded by a governing body in a sporting discipline. Champions are the ones who represent and define their sport, that's what the competition was for! Now I may sound like contradicting myself, I guess there's no reason why an amateur football side can't be champions of their local league, however only if the local league promoter are the one's to declare the title. If it's not official I don't think it counts - else there's justification for Hamilton being called F1 Champion 2021 if anybody can bestow the title of 'champion'. On that thought, trusted media sources can put what they want to write about titles, and they are free to disagree with me or just be wrong as they often are, as we all can be.
:::::::::::Officially the Champions League and the Europa League do not have champions or titles awarded, just a team that wins the final, but they do have 'titleholders'! [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 21:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
::I'm not sure I see this precept that Championship wins are titles and Cup wins aren't. For instance, the headline karting competition, the [[FIA Karting World Championship]], is a stand-alone race. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 19:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::A championship can be a stand-alone race. The ''winner'' of the race is awarded the ''title'' of ''champion driver'' amongst awards such as prize money and physical trophies. Traditionally, cup winners didn't get a title, but now they can be called champions, title holders and so on, depending who wrote it and where you look.
:::Maybe people forget that often time a race, such as Macau's, is happening as organised by its local organiser and approved by its local ASN; and will have its own winner despite what the FIA does with its titles/trophies/awards/cups/championships. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 19:42, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::And the ''winner'' of the the Macau GP is awarded the ''title'' of ''FIA World Cup winner''. There is no difference. It's on officially recognized title. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 20:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::According to the list published at the FIA prize giving gala, they are a champion. It can't be that officially recognised.
:::::There's no consistency, this is my key point. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 20:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
::::::Now you’re contradicting yourself. If they are credited as a champion for this at the prize giving gala, it’s as officialy recognized as it can be. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 23:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:::::::This is what I said all along, Wikipedia goes with the sources. I don't think I am contradicting myself, just pointing out that there is not a consistency in use of language by anybody here, by media, copy-writing services or by FIA officials. There are only a few set definitions, and I'm allowed to hold the opinion that use of language evolves and sometimes doesn't fit rational definitions that historically, say over a century ago in this case, maybe would have done. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 10:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Just to put it out there: The issue has been brought to the attention of the Wikipedia admins. The relevant discussion can be found [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Persistent_violation_of_established_consensus_on_McLaren_Driver_Development_Programme here]. [[User:SportscarFan2004|SportscarFan2004]] ([[User talk:SportscarFan2004|talk]]) 19:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
:Well this has taken a weird turn now. The OP has "retired" suddenly, leaving the site with a rant. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 20:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
== Changed official ==
Changed official F3 lineup, adding 2 new drivers to the team, Ugo Ugochukwu, Brando Badoer, which have been officially announced to be in F3. Removed FRECA category because there is no McLaren drivers in FRECA at this moment anymore. [[User:Ersken1123|Ersken1123]] ([[User talk:Ersken1123|talk]]) 10:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
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