Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

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{{tq2|A ship's name is always italicized.}}

Now, my question is, does BADITALICS overrule SHIPNAME? For a Russian ship, should the native name be in ordinary type? My initial assessment is "yes". However, I can also see some validity in the opposite: ship names could fall under the same italicization category as "titles of major works", in that the overriding convention is to italicize when the script allows it. I've seen both situations in use:

{{tq2|'''''Moskva''''' ({{lang-langx|ru|links=no|Москва|lit=Moscow}}, {{IPA-|ru|mɐskˈva|}}), formerly '''''Slava''''' ({{lang-langx|ru|label=none|links=no|Слава|lit=Glory}}) was a [[guided missile cruiser]] of the [[Russian Navy]].}}

but

{{tq2|'''Russian cruiser ''Varyag''''' ({{lang-langx|ru|Варяг|italic=yes|lit=[[Varangian]]}}) (formerly-''Chervona Ukraina''), is the third ship of the {{sclass2|Slava|cruiser|0}} of guided missile cruisers [...]}}

The latter explicitly sets <code>italic=yes</code> in the {{template|lang-ru}} template it uses. A {{em|very}} quick survey I did just now shows that not-italicizing is more common, but not universal. [[User:Oatco|oatco]] <span style="font-size:90%;">[[User talk:Oatco|(talk)]]</span> 23:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

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::Thank you! [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 00:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

:::But it should be done with bare <code><nowiki>''...''</nowiki></code> markup, not with, e.g., {{tlx|lang}} for cases that in running text that could call for that. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:30, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

== bold in song articles (fake headings) ==

An edit of mine removing boldface was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Machine%27s_Breaking_Down&oldid=prev&diff=1179101819 reverted] by @[[User:ResolutionsPerMinute|ResolutionsPerMinute]]; the reason was that other song articles use bold in that manner. I tend to look to this manual of style rather than similar articles, but the manual style of rife with exceptions and contradictions that are not linked to in [[MOS:BOLD]]. Is there something I missed? '''~[[User:True Pagan Warrior|T]][[User talk:True Pagan Warrior|P]][[Special:Contributions/True Pagan Warrior|W]]''' 15:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:I think "look at similar articles" is valid advice in such cases; the MoS can't handle every detail. [[User:Gawaon|Gawaon]] ([[User talk:Gawaon|talk]]) 16:10, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

::If the usage is to make it look like a header, then just make it a real section header with "===". [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 16:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:There is also [[MOS:FAKEHEADING]], which does seem to support bold, but not semi-colons, for pseudo-headings. The current guidelines do seem quite confusing. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.15em 0.15em 0.1em">[[User:Yodin|Yodin]]</span><span style="text-shadow:grey 0.25em 0.25em 0.12em">^{[[User talk:Yodin|T]]}</span> 17:10, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

::Yup, there seems to be no shortage of style guidance that's confusing and could benefit from some discussion. I'd much rather that the manual of style be explicit, rather than editors fighting because some rely on the style guide and others come to an understanding that's not documented in the style guide. That's the purpose of a manual of style, isn't it? '''~[[User:True Pagan Warrior|T]][[User talk:True Pagan Warrior|P]][[Special:Contributions/True Pagan Warrior|W]]''' 17:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:::I completely agree, it would be helpful either to discourage the use of bold pseudo-headings if there was consensus to do that, or to list them at [[MOS:BOLD#OTHER]] if not. @[[User:True Pagan Warrior|TPW]] do you oppose the use of bold pseudo-headings in general? And would anyone object if I added a mention of [[MOS:FAKEHEADING]]s at [[MOS:BOLD]] for now, while both are part of the MOS? --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.15em 0.15em 0.1em">[[User:Yodin|Yodin]]</span><span style="text-shadow:grey 0.25em 0.25em 0.12em">^{[[User talk:Yodin|T]]}</span> 09:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

::::All I object to is the idea that an editor should be expected to guess as to local consensus. Either pseudo-headings are fine sitewide, or they are not. I'd prefer there not be any exceptions, but if there are let's have them laid out in detail in a centralized list, such as [[MOS:BOLD]] in this case. '''~[[User:True Pagan Warrior|T]][[User talk:True Pagan Warrior|P]][[Special:Contributions/True Pagan Warrior|W]]''' 14:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

:::::There is no topic-by-topic list of "exceptions" regarding such a thing, and shouldn't be one. I tend to agree with other comments below that the ToC problem can be solved by using {{tlx|TOC limit}}, so we really no longer have any need to permit pseudo-headings at all, especially since they lead to accessibility problems. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 19:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

:Creating subsections with === for each and every track listing bloats up the TOC like Thanksgiving dinner (compare [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumbo_(Underworld_song) this] to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_Makin%27_Me_High# something more reasonable]), and I find that quite distracting. By applying bold pseudo-headings across hundreds of song articles with Track listings sections, I am introducing consistency that does not seem to be explicitly outlined elsewhere, not even in [[WP:SONGS]]. [[User:ResolutionsPerMinute|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:royalblue">'''ResPM'''</span>]] ([[User talk:ResolutionsPerMinute|T&#x1F508;]][[Special:Contributions/ResolutionsPerMinute|&#x1F3B5;C]]) 17:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

::A wikiproject is the last place any editor should be looking for style guidance. Whatever the outcome of this discussion, I'd like to see the actual manual of style updated to reflect it, because that makes it a lot easier for editorial compliance. '''~[[User:True Pagan Warrior|T]][[User talk:True Pagan Warrior|P]][[Special:Contributions/True Pagan Warrior|W]]''' 17:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:::Yes. That said, using bold to make pseudo-headings isn't against any rule (and the main reason to do it is in fact to avoid massively lengthening the ToC). But using <code>;</code> markup to do it against [[MOS:DLIST]], because it's an abuse of list markup which causes accessibility problems. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 19:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

::If it's distracting to you, then ignore it. Some people use assisted technology to read articles and for them it's helpful. Also, I personally find your "less reasonable" example perfectly fine. Especially if you add the country headers that were added to the "more reasonable" example which then make these headers one level deeper and visually smaller. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 19:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

:::@[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] Are there accessibility issues for the "more reasonable" example given above ([[You're Makin' Me High]]), or the use of bold pseudo-headings at [[MOS:FAKEHEADING]]? --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.15em 0.15em 0.1em">[[User:Yodin|Yodin]]</span><span style="text-shadow:grey 0.25em 0.25em 0.12em">^{[[User talk:Yodin|T]]}</span> 09:11, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

::::[[MOS:FAKEHEADING]] says this {{tq|Screen readers and other assistive technology can only use headings that have heading markup for navigation.}} so yes, there are accessibility issues when actual headers aren't being used. I have no idea if there are others, as this area isn't my specialty. [[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 10:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

:::::It suggests using {{tl|TOC limit}} to avoid the issues raised by {{u|ResolutionsPerMinute}} above, and that "Using a pseudo heading at all means you have exhausted all other options. It is meant as a rarity." But {{tl|TOC limit}} seems not to be working with the new Vector 2022 skin. [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T317818#9249498 I've now raised this issue on Phabricator], which also had suggestions for fine-grain control of TOCs, which could remove the technical reasons that currently permit pseudo-headings. But for now it looks like [[MOS:FAKEHEADING]]s are supported by the MOS (albeit as a last resort), and accessibility concerns with it should probably be discussed there, rather than here. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.15em 0.15em 0.1em">[[User:Yodin|Yodin]]</span><span style="text-shadow:grey 0.25em 0.25em 0.12em">^{[[User talk:Yodin|T]]}</span> 12:10, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

::::::It's just that using proper subsection headers for e.g. six groups of two-to-five lines of text seems extravagant. They look better for prose than lists, which, as the name implies, Track listings sections are. Accessibility is a legitimate issue, but readability and presentation are just as important. I don't want to say using pseudoheaders "looks better," because that's my insignificant opinion, but a lot of song articles were that way before I came along, so there must be some benefit. [[User:ResolutionsPerMinute|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:royalblue">'''ResPM'''</span>]] ([[User talk:ResolutionsPerMinute|T&#x1F508;]][[Special:Contributions/ResolutionsPerMinute|&#x1F3B5;C]]) 21:33, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

:::::::Might be worth trying to get consensus for a template that would display as bold text (in the same way that level 4+ headers currently are, for example), but render as h3 tags, so that it would be fully accessible, but also improve readability. Something like this should work: <code><nowiki><h3 style="font-size:100%">test</h3></nowiki></code>

:::::::Alternatively, how about using the bullet point method in the second example you gave? That way it would render as a list with sub-items, which again should address accessibility concerns. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.15em 0.15em 0.1em">[[User:Yodin|Yodin]]</span><span style="text-shadow:grey 0.25em 0.25em 0.12em">^{[[User talk:Yodin|T]]}</span> 22:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

::::::::For another option, when there are a bunch of micro-sections in series and they're short and consistent in their style and purpose: template-structured glossary markup (which is not just for things that literally are glossaries; the underlying "association" or "description" list markup has various uses). See [[MOS:GLOSSARIES]] for the gist, and [[Template:Glossary]] and its related templates. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

{{od}}

This example could plausibly be formatted as a definition list:

<pre>;Australian 7-inch and cassette single

:1. "The Machine's Breaking Down" – 4:38

:2. "Rumour Has It" – 3:55

;Australian 12-inch single

:1. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (club mix Hot Dr. mix)

:2. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (radio mix)

:3. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (extended dance mix)

:4. "Rumour Has It"</pre>

;Australian 7-inch and cassette single

:1. "The Machine's Breaking Down" – 4:38

:2. "Rumour Has It" – 3:55

;Australian 12-inch single

:1. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (club mix Hot Dr. mix)

:2. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (radio mix)

:3. "The Machine's Breaking Down" (extended dance mix)

:4. "Rumour Has It"

This is not a pseudo-heading because we really are using the material after each bold item to provide detail about that item, as definition lists do. Note that there needs to be no blank lines between the lines per [[MOS:LISTGAP]]. There should be no accessibility issues because we are using the ;: wikiformatting as it is supposed to be used rather than to hack up pseudo-headings or indentation. Also note the manual track numbering; auto-numbering with ":#" works but adds unnecessary indentation. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 16:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

::Yes, this is why I said see [[MOS:GLOSSARIES]], since it provides not just that semicolons-and-colons option but a more robust templated version with less easily-broken syntax:

::{{tlx|glossary}}

::{{tlx|term|Australian 7-inch and cassette single}}

::{{tlx|defn|no{{=}}1|"The Machine's Breaking Down" – 4:38}}

::{{tnull|defn|no{{=}}2|"Rumour Has It" – 3:55}}

::{{tnull|term|Australian 12-inch single}}

::{{tnull|defn|no{{=}}1|"The Machine's Breaking Down" (club mix Hot Dr. mix)}}

::{{tnull|defn|no{{=}}2|"The Machine's Breaking Down" (radio mix)}}

::{{tnull|defn|no{{=}}3|"The Machine's Breaking Down" (extended dance mix)}}

::{{tnull|defn|no{{=}}4|"Rumour Has It"}}

::{{tlx|glossary end}}

::That markup permits blank lines (but not extraneous HTML elements) between items, and items with nested complex markup like multi-line input, block quotations, hatnotes, etc. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 19:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

== Italics or not? ==

Should all these words be written in italics? [[idam]], [[antahkarana]], [[buddhi]], ecc. [[User:JackkBrown|JackkBrown]] ([[User talk:JackkBrown|talk]]) 12:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

:{{ping|JackkBrown}} Yes, since they are not fully assimilated into English like "yoga" is. More properly, they should be written with lang-template markup, e.g. {{tlx|lang|sa-Latn|idam}}. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

== [[MOS:BADITALICS]] - What is a proper name?? ==

I read the description on proper noun 10 times and I still can't decide: Is [[Arena (countermeasure)]] a proper noun or a proper ''name''? I had never heard of the term "proper name" before Wikipedia. [[User:Schierbecker|Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Schierbecker|talk]]) 17:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

:The term would generally be 'proper noun', at least as taught in American schools. [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:3px 0 0 3px;padding:4px 3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:2px;color:#000">聊</span>]] 18:37, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

::It's more that "proper name" is mostly a [[Proper name (philosophy)|philosophy usage]] and "proper noun" more a [[Proper noun|linguistics usage]], but "proper name" in broad usage also encompasses capitalized derivates of proper nouns, like "Scottish" (in languages like English that capitalize such terms; many, including Spanish, lower-case them and only capitalize the noun forms: {{lang|es|escocés, escocesa}} 'Scottish', {{lang|es|Escocia}} 'Scotland'). The term "proper adjective" or "proper modifier" is sometimes used for the derived forms, but these terms seem to have little currency compared to "proper name" used in the general sense. Overall, I think WP's MoS should prefer the term "proper noun" where ever practical, because we have been beset in the past by people trying to apply a broad, loose philosophy-derived defintion of "proper name" in an effort to over-capitalize a large number of things, when MoS clearly, necessarily means the linguistics sense, being a work about language usage not a treatise on philosophy of naming. Despite the obviousness of this, such "give me capitals or give me death" behavior has risen to very disruptive levels in the past, so it is best to nip it in the bud. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

== de facto or ''de facto'' ==

Is <code>de facto</code> considered [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms|a foreign term]] or is it considered [[Loanword|a loan-phrase]] for the purposes of [[MOS:FOREIGNITALIC]]? &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]^{[[User:MJL/P|☖]]}</span> 04:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

:My take is that it's been in every English dictionary ever printed, so it's an archetypal loan-phrase, no italics. [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:3px 0 0 3px;padding:4px 3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:2px;color:#000">聊</span>]] 18:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

::Lots of Latin- and French-ism borrowings are found in English dictionaries but still often rendered in italics as not fully assimiliated (especially multi-word ones like {{lang|la|in flagrante delicto}}, {{lang|fr|de rigeur}}, etc.), very commonly in legal writing. People are going to disagree on these, using "{{lang|la|de facto}}" instead of "de facto" is not an error, and the matter is not worth fighting about. Just be consistent within an article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:09, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

:::I don't think it's an error in the abstract, but if what [[MOS:FOREIGNITALICS]] means what it presently says, words that have been 'properly' loaned into English shouldn't be italicized as a rule. I hope I haven't come off as belligerent, I'm just curious where the line is intended to be and what form it should take.[[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:3px 0 0 3px;padding:4px 3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:2px;color:#000">聊</span>]] 01:52, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

::::Lots of bright lines are intentionally not drawn by this style guide, to permit as much editorial freedom as is practical. See [[MOS:BLOAT]]: we generally only add a line item to MoS when it has been the subject of long-term, repetitive, disruptive editorial dispute. And even when we do add one, it often still permits editorial judgment, with wording like "usually", "often", "may", "recommended", etc. This is not a hard-and-fast policy. Cf. also [[WP:P&G]]: "Guidelines are sets of best practices supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." It would not be practicable for MoS to try to list out definitively every loan word/phrase and whether it should be italicized. Even determining on a case-by-case basis is apt to end up being a matter of whoever has more time to waste digging around in dictionaries and other sources to support their case that the term is or is not assimilated enough to warrant italicizing any longer. This is why I suggest just leaving it alone. It does not break anything if it appears as "de facto" in one article but "{{lang|la|de facto}}" in another. We just don't want to see both styles in the same article. And consider also consistency as a class: if the article is making heavy use of italics for such phrases in general, there is probably no good reason to try to make a special exception for this specific term, while if it's presenting lots of fairly well-assimilated Latinisms without italics, it would probably not make sense to try to force italics on just this one. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

:::::Oh, certainly, I agree it would only make sense as a class, see my topic below. I suppose there's a particular sense of noise that I would concretely rather avoid with this class, but I could definitely see one seeing it as guideline bloat. [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:3px 0 0 3px;padding:4px 3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:2px;color:#000">聊</span>]] 02:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)