Talk:Paul Graham (programmer): Difference between revisions

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== Graham's hierarchy of disagreement? ==

== Merge from [[Arc programming language]] ==

I have seen this hierarchy around, and find it and its associated figure compelling. But reading this article, I am wondering why this discussion has such notability, such that it warrants an inclusion in the article. I don't challenge the inclusion, I merely ask for additional development that supports why it is important. Is it famous? Why? Where? etc. The supporting citation is to a blogging essay, hardly the sort of substantive citation for Wikipedia. [[User:Bdushaw|Bdushaw]] ([[User talk:Bdushaw|talk]]) 22:03, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Content from [[Arc programming language]] has been merged here and that article redirected here. This was the result of a [[WP:VFD|Vote for Deletion]] on that article. The discussion can be found [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Arc programming language|here]].-[[User:Splash|Splash]] 02:11, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

:I’d also like to know. It seems that any popularity it enjoys presently has in part to do with it being included in this Wikipedia article, which makes it seem self-promotional rather than gaining popularity on its own merit. [[User:Louiemantia|Louie Mantia]] ([[User talk:Louiemantia|talk]]) 23:12, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

: Beginning this year the redirect on the Arc page Splash put in place in 2005 was removed and that page was expanded. Because the reasons for the VfD remain valid (Arc still doesn't exist in any public form, and is notable only that it is promoted by Paul Graham), I believe that the removal of the redirect was made in error. On the 25th of October I put a notice on the [[talk:Arc_%28programming_language%29]] page that I intended to re-merge that page with this one and re-institute the redirect. I've done so this evening. [[User:Jorbettis|Jorbettis]] 05:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

:I found it coming from here [[Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions]] at the top of this page the diagram is there with the a link to this page. At first I thought that was really cool a programmer came up with this but something just feels off that this concept would be novel when behavioral psychology has a couple hundred years of a lead on this developer to coin something like this. I will spend some time looking to see if I can find a older concept that this is derived from or a reason it was specifically chosen for the rules page. [[User:Maxinfet|Maxinfet]] ([[User talk:Maxinfet|talk]]) 23:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

:It doesn't. No RS notability. I've removed it unless and until some is shown - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 21:59, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

:: The reasoning on the VfD is that [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball]], but that paragraph says:

:is it not funny how the hierarchy of disagreement section damages both the credibility of this article and it’s subject at the same time. [[Special:Contributions/141.0.145.227|141.0.145.227]] ([[User talk:141.0.145.227|talk]]) 22:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

:::"Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. All articles about anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred."

::This seems to me to warrant an article on Arc that is verifiable, which the article was AFAIK. Moreover [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arc_%28programming_language%29&oldid=18276328 the article was a small stub] at the previous time of merge/redirection unlike it is now, so that VfD does not apply to the article in its current state. Please revert your changes. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 13:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

== Career ==

::: The information in the original article was verifiable as well. The issue for that vote was that the existence of the article was predicated on the unverifiable and speculative existence of the Arc Programming language, since nobody outside of Paul Graham's small group has ever seen what he has produced. There is nothing that you can say about the language without first saying "according to Paul Graham" because, due to PG's desire to not release it (for reasons unknown), to be able to say *anything* about it is to just take his word for it. By giving it an article, wikipedia gives the impression that it is now something real and tangible. That may be true someday, but is not now. That a notable person speculates on something that he may produce someday does not make a wiki article about it, although it may make it valid to put the relevant information in his article.

Paul Graham’s career may span creating startups as well as academic research, though the last few lines of his Career section appear to be… notes about things he’s doing that are unrelated to his career. To me, it almost reads like a news feed from his own website: Paul stopped inviting people to events, Paul stepped down, Paul announced something. I feel like there should be more substance here (if there is substance). From what I can tell, Paul has written essays (which, I’d love clarification on whether these are ‘essays’ or ‘blog posts’) and done little else career-wise since about 2014 when he left YCombinator. [[User:Louiemantia|Louie Mantia]] ([[User talk:Louiemantia|talk]]) 23:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

::::Whether or not to create a separate article should be guided by organizational principles. I think that enough can be said about Arc already to warrant its own article.

:yeah, it's basically fan posting. Graham is notable, but that doesn't mean blog posts of no particular real-world impact should be in the article - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] ([[User talk:David Gerard|talk]]) 22:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

::: As to the second part of your quote from [[WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball]], until *something* of the Arc language is released publicly, how is it of interest to anyone outside of those who are interested in Paul Graham's current and future projects?

== Removal of diagram ==

::::That is not relevant.

Hello, I wanted you to know that I restored Graham's ''Hierarchy of Disagreement'' to his biography. You noted in your edit summary that blogs and newsletters are not reliable sources, which is generally true. However I think you may have been too hasty and literal in this case. 1) The "blog" cited is under control of the subject himself and 2) the newsletter cited is a ''Wikipedia'' newsletter explaining how ''Wikipedia'' uses his Hierarchy. I have also added a source from ''The Guardian''. When it comes to [[WP:GUNREL]] sources we can use them provided, "...The source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts is also acceptable." Given these arguments I'm not seeing where the sourcing is so deficient as to warrant removal.

::::: I would like a further explanation of why you think that the importance of the subject matter is not relevant in deciding if a subject should have its own wikipedia page. It seems to me (and it's central to my argument that this needed to be re-merged) that non-notable things should *not* have their own wikipedia pages. Further, I believe that the decision in the original VfD was based, if not solely, then mostly on the fact that Arc is "vaporwear" that is completely non-notable *except* that it is something promised and promoted by Paul Graham.

<br>Given some admin's using Graham's Hierarchy to set discussion tone (see [[User talk:Beeblebrox]]) it would be a shame to keep this out. If you still disagree I suggest that we start a discussion on the Paul Graham talk page and invite other editors to join in. Best regards, <span style="color: blue">[[User:Blue Riband|Blue]] [[User talk:Blue Riband|Riband►]]</span> 01:18, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

:I think Paul Graham is an established expert on programming, but psychology stuff? I think it's fine to use the diagram in a Wikipedia policy page, but not in his biography. The Guardian source is a bit small to make it warrant an entire section. I am still in favor of removing it here. [[User:PhotographyEdits|PhotographyEdits]] ([[User talk:PhotographyEdits#top|talk]]) 17:12, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

::: I've looked through the documentation on VfD and it doesn't say anything about VfD only being appropriate for stub articles. On the face that's a bit absurd. If I were to make a biography of myself and fill it out to be a large page before anyone notices, is it now immune to VfD even though the topic shouldn't be on Wikipedia? Anyway, originally I thought that perhaps there should be a new VfD, but I asked in #wikipedia and they responded with [[WP:BOLD]], saying that the old VfD was still valid, and that a VfD isn't even required for an article merger.

* (also in response to [[Talk:Paul_Graham_(programmer)#Graham's_hierarchy_of_disagreement?|thread above]]):

::::You misunderstand. I'm saying the old VfD discussion was about a completely different article, so you shouldn't apply its conclusion so blindly to the current article. Of course no VfD is required for a merge, but if you do not have a consensus your changes may be reverted. That's why we're discussing this. I'm informing you that I disagree with the merge and that you can't bring some old consensus from VfD here to back you up.

:: 1) The threshold for simply including a given topic in an article is not as high as [[WP:N]]'s threshold, which is for said topic to have its own article.

:: 2) Not everything about a subject has to be about the main thing(s) for which the subject is notable if we have RS. (Guardian alone establishes this)

::::: The VfD was about a stub for a topic that does not deserve its own Wikipedia article. The article I merged was barely a non-stub about the very same topic.

:: 3) That said, since the concern is notability, here's another source: [https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/how-to-disagree-well-7-of-the-best-and-worst-ways-to-argue/ How to disagree well: 7 of the best and worst ways to argue], from [[Big Think]] (which [[Media Bias/Fact Check]], FWIW, gives the highest possible rating. [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/big-think/]). &nbsp;IMO that (and the rest) are sufficient RS for our purposes.

::: Now, when it comes to the question of a stub versus a fleshed-out and well-written article, the current article was longer than the one originally merged, but it was still substantially redundant with the information already in Paul Graham (which I removed from the biography section), and of what was left, the majority of the information was in that poorly formated list, which could easily be processed down into a smallish paragraph. [[User:Jorbettis|Jorbettis]] 16:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

::4) And [[WP:IAR|not for nothing]], having it here helps both readers and editors, thereby making for a better Wikipedia.

::::Even now the paragraph about Arc is more than half of the article on Paul Graham. And all the links and references are intermixed. My feeling is that there is too much information on Arc to keep it neatly on this page sharing with the actual information about Arc. I think it is important to keep the links and references for each separate and that is most easily done if they are spearate pages. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 13:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

:Thus I '''!vote to include section''', adding Big Think RS. Perhaps though, per [[WP:UNDUE]], the section could be pruned. --[[User:Middle 8|Middle 8]] ^{[[User:Middle 8/Privacy|privacy]]} • _{([[Special:Contributions/Middle_8|s]])[[User talk:Middle 8|talk]]} 06:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

::::: I will concede this to you. The articles are currently poorly integrated. But this is often the case after a merge. I will commit to try to make it better. I do think things can be integrated much better. For instance, the paragraph on bayesian filters has precious little to do with Arc (except that Paul Graham claimed in the paper to have written such a filter in Arc, which nobody has ever seen). Given the aftermath of that paper though, it's probably true that popularizing bayesian filters for spam is one of the most notable things PG has done, and that might even be worth splitting off into its own section that discusses bogofilter, et al.

::The section comes off as as a bit out of his element, and when performing a cursory Google search, most mentions are either from his own webpage or blogs specifically quoting the wiki page (though these seem to have been from as early as 2017, so it's possible the original author pulled the info from those blogs). The diagram showing up in a Wikipedia policy pages, as pointed out by [[User:PhotographyEdits]], isn't enough for it to warrant more than a small blurb, certainly not a third of the article's word count.

::To your third point: interestingly, the [[Media Bias/Fact Check]] website you point to is classified by Wikipedia as a generally unreliable source.

::And to your forth: this point is addressed in the very Wikipedia Page mentioned above [[WP:USEFUL]] <span style="font-family: Courier; background-color: black; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;">[[User:Lindsey40186|<span style="color: white"><b>Lindsey40186</b></span>]] [[User talk:Lindsey40186|<span style="color: white">(talk)</span>]]</span> 20:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

:::Agree, this isn't exactly a big hitter on Google, but the threshold here isn't [[WP:SIRS]]. Google certainly turns up a good few articles and discussions, and some of those lead to this page, so the content in debate is already referenced a lot. A section heading doesn't need to have notability in its own right, as made clear in [[WP:NNC]]. There appears to be no issue of correctness. So we're left with considerations of [[WP:UNDUE]]: at the time of writing, there are under 160 words on Grahams Hierarchy (+ those in the diagram), in an article under 1200 words (excluding refs) so it's about 13% of the text content, which seems plausible. Given all that, '''!vote to retain section'''. I [[User:Chumpih|<span style="text-shadow: 2px 2.5px 3px #448811bb">Chumpih</span>]] ^{[[User talk:Chumpih|t]]} 04:07, 07:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

::::In my view this is a self-promotional article, backed by self-promotional, personal website with a completely subjective taxonomy not backed by even single source from argumentation theory, conversation analysis, nor discourse analysis.

::::An example of name calling - I would suspect, written by the author - is "The author is a self-important dilettante". But let's be honest, isn't he?

::::Can someone explain why this taxonomy is even a pyramid? Maslow's justified the shape such higher levels of needs become motivating for humans after the lower levels are satisfied. Without any theoretical justification, this is just a self-promotional sham branded by it's own name. [[User:Okaminski|Okaminski]] ([[User talk:Okaminski|talk]]) 18:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

:::::I'm slightly struggling to parse some of the grammar in that comment, but as an argument it appears to be motivated by ironic levels of ad hominem and name calling. I agree with [[User:Chumpih|Chumpih]]. [[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 22:30, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

== "[[:Paul Graham (computer programmer]]" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==

::::: I think that list that makes up the majority of the current Arc section needs, at the very least, to be reformatted into paragraphs. A larger problem with it is that it essentially is a summary of Graham's essay, which is itself a collection of his thoughts on what a language "should be", most of which are tautologies. It could be shortened into a paragraph that says one or two things that are actually indicative of what Arc might actually be if it is ever released. [[User:Jorbettis|Jorbettis]] 22:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[[File:Information.svg|30px]]

The redirect <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer&redirect=no Paul Graham (computer programmer]</span> has been listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|redirects for discussion]] to determine whether its use and function meets the [[Wikipedia:Redirect|redirect guidelines]]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 21#Paul Graham (computer programmer}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">[[User:Utopes|Utopes]] _{('''[[User talk:Utopes|talk]]''' / '''[[Special:Contributions/Utopes|cont]]''')}</span> 20:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

== Portrayal of Paul Graham is extremely unfavorable ==

Almost every link in the "About Paul Graham" is extremely unfavorable. The focus of the article is not NPOV, painting Paul Graham in a one-sided, negative light. I would not expect to see this sort of trash in a published encyclopedia, (nor would I expect to see this in Wikipedia) even on entries of extremely unpopular individuals. Critique links should be moved to a critique links section. (since almost all of the links are of that nature) General links should be less subjective. It's not as if the man is a bad person, and in fact many people who don't like his opinions try to undermine the fact that he has authored some exceptional computer science texts. (OnLisp and ANSI Common Lisp, for example) I think the criticism in "Dabblers and Blowhards" and "Paul Graham is Wrong" provide a reasonable critique of some of his more mediocre writing, but "Paul Graham is a Tedious Windbag" is by a person who fails to be objective, and resorts to petty name-calling of Paul Graham in several of his entries. The blog author does _NOT_ deserve this sort of attention, (this "yani" person uses his blog as essentially a soapbox for his poorly defended arguments) so I'm removing his link if I can. (please _DO NOT_ revert it back) That aside, I do not believe that most blogs are up to wikipedia standard, and shouldn't be linked to anyway because they are constantly changing.

I believe that there are people out there who seek to use the web to ruin the reputations of people more famous than them; Yani's blog is a good example of such behavior.

: It would seem we now have the opposite problem. :) [[Special:Contributions/78.147.174.228|78.147.174.228]] ([[User talk:78.147.174.228|talk]]) 22:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

== Born in Weymouth, England ==

Interesting he was born in Weymouth. I can't find any other source that confirms this. And references known? Any extra information, e.g. did his parents emigrate or were they holidaying in Weymouth at the time. :-) -- [[User:Ralph Corderoy|Ralph Corderoy]] 22:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

== Comment in references ==

I found the following comment in the references section. I'm moving it here. [[User:Michael Slone|Michael Slone]] ([[User talk:Michael Slone|talk]]) 16:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:(Yes, but I undeclared that major just before graduating, so I don't have a degree in it. --pg) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:67.95.134.237|67.95.134.237]] ([[User talk:67.95.134.237|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.95.134.237|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

== Arc summary ==

Seeing as Arc now has its own WP page (and it seems like most of the arguments in favor of merging it have been assuaged), I think the Arc section on Paul Graham's page should be shortened, since currently that section and Arc's own page are too similar (obviously looks copied). <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Kngspook|Kngspook]] ([[User talk:Kngspook|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kngspook|contribs]]) 10:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Parodies ==

I don't see why these blogs are linked - they are not notable, informative, or encyclopaedic. I will remove them unless there are any objections. [[User:DavidCh0|DavidCh0]] ([[User talk:DavidCh0|talk]]) 10:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

: I've removed them, along with one unnecessary additional link on paulgraham.com and the Arc links (which belong on the Arc article). [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 12:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

== Disambig ==

Is this particular Paul Graham really important enough to justify having the undisambiguated entry? I'd think the photographer would be considered more important if fewer wikipedians were computer science types. --[[Special:Contributions/81.187.220.53|81.187.220.53]] ([[User talk:81.187.220.53|talk]]) 13:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

== Anon user mass-adding notability tags to computer science articles ==

Looking at [[Special:Contributions/12.188.157.129]], I notice that an anonymous user has tagged ten or so articles as non-notable in the space of about nine minutes; the majority of these articles seem to me to meet notability and then some based on the amount of coverage present in third-party sources, but if someone disagrees, I'd be curious as their reasoning. [[User:evildeathmath|<font color="#408000">e<font color="#489000">v<font color="#50a000">i<font color="#55b000">l<font color="#60c000">d<font color="#65d000">e<font color="#70e000">a</font>t</font>h</font>m</font>a</font>t</font>h</font>]] 15:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

== Bayesian claims are unsupported ==

The citation which seems to support the notion that Bayesian methods for spam detection are the best available (or best possible, or something), is in fact a white paper from a company that wants to sell you a Bayesian spam filter. It should be removed, so I'll do so. I believe pure Bayesian techniques (if that phrase has any real meaning) are no longer considered best-of-class in the research community (and perhaps never were), it would be good to find some peer-reviewed research comparing these techniques to other statistical/probabilistic modeling techniques. [[User:Kenahoo|Kenahoo]] ([[User talk:Kenahoo|talk]]) 16:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

== Viaweb first ASP claims are unsupported ==

The claim that Viaweb was the first ASP is not supported and is not substantiated.--[[User:Nthiery|Nthiery]] ([[User talk:Nthiery|talk]]) 00:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

:''[http://www.foundersatwork.com/ Founders at Work]'':

<blockquote>One of the unusual things about Viaweb was that it worked over the Web.

That’s where the name came from. It was a web-based application—as far as I

know, the first one. But in the very beginning, it wasn’t web-based. At first it

was going to be software that you would use on your desktop computer to build

a website that you would then upload to a server. Then in the first couple days

of working on it, we had this idea, “Hey, maybe we could make this run on the

server and have the user control it by clicking on links on a web page.” So we sat

down and tried to write it and, sure enough, you could write a program that

worked this way.

Livingston: This was a new idea, right? Do you remember when it came

to you?

...

So the main thing we thought when we first had the idea of doing

web-based applications was, “Thank God, we don’t have to write software on

Windows.”</blockquote>

:--[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 15:13 30 March 2011 (GMT)

The current text says "In 1995, Graham and Robert Morris founded Viaweb, the first application service provider (ASP)." It should say that Graham believes Viaweb was the first application service provider (ASP). As a matter of fact, Viaweb wasn't the first ASP. There was at least one other application run that way before then, and most likely others. The NSF founded Knowledge Space project developed at UC Irvine in 1994 was initially programmed as a Windows, Mac, and Unix based application until November 1994. It was rewritten entirely as a web based application from December 1994 to January 1995. The motivation was also to move away from programming graphical interfaces for Windows or the Mac. A prototype was demoed in January 1995 to Stephen D. Franklin, from the Office of Academic Computing, and Jean-Claude Falmagne, professor at the School of Social Sciences. It was also presented at the 4th World Wide Web conference in December 1995 in Boston. It was later renamed ALEKS (Assessment and Learning in Knowledge Spaces; www.aleks.com).--[[User:Nthiery|Nthiery]] ([[User talk:Nthiery|talk]]) 07:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

http://web.archive.org/web/19970518001937/http://www.spaces.uci.edu/sswww/notes.html <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nthiery|Nthiery]] ([[User talk:Nthiery|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nthiery|contribs]]) 20:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Political beliefs ==

In this article http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html he says that he is a libertarian. Just do a find for libertarian and read the paragraph. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.16.159.118|24.16.159.118]] ([[User talk:24.16.159.118|talk]]) 23:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Well... maybe. I think you have to be careful about you mean by 'libertarian' (or, more to the point, about what you think *he* means by the term). Is it social libertarian, economic libertarian? Take the full quote:

"This is why so many of the best programmers are libertarians. In our world, you sink or swim, and there are no excuses. When those far removed from the creation of wealth-- undergraduates, reporters, politicians-- hear that the richest 5% of the people have half the total wealth, they tend to think injustice! An experienced programmer would be more likely to think is that all? The top 5% of programmers probably write 99% of the good software.

Wealth can be created without being sold. Scientists, till recently at least, effectively donated the wealth they created. We are all richer for knowing about penicillin, because we're less likely to die from infections. Wealth is whatever people want, and not dying is certainly something we want. Hackers often donate their work by writing open source software that anyone can use for free. I am much the richer for the operating system FreeBSD, which I'm running on the computer I'm using now, and so is Yahoo, which runs it on all their servers."

That said, he seems to be writing (intentionally or not) from a politically naive perspective. He does not, for example, address the issue of whether he believes that the top 5% in wealth are there because they really created vastly more wealth than the majority of the population. Even if that were really so, the injustice argument usually derives not from what the 'best' (most productive) 'deserve' but rather from what the bottom (say 5%) are deprived of (food, water, health, life, liberty, educations, etc). <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.157.195.222|81.157.195.222]] ([[User talk:81.157.195.222|talk]]) 14:43, 7 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Priorities ==

Does "Blub" really merit an entire section?

Is Y combinator adequately described?

I'd suggest removing the Blub section entirely, and reducing the Arc and Bayesian Filtering sections to a single sentence.

If a longer article is preferable, then surely there are higher priorities for elaboration than Blub.[[User:Jsolinsky|Jsolinsky]] ([[User talk:Jsolinsky|talk]]) 19:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

:Before spam and Y Combinator, Blub was the concept that made Graham as a tech essayist. If you don't believe, try googling around and looking at things like [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=blub+paul+graham&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C33&as_ylo=&as_vis=0 Google Scholar]. So yes, I think it's worth a section, especially considering how short the article is. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 19:41 5 March 2011 (GMT)

::Isn't the purpose of this article to answer the question: "Who is Paul Graham?" Is Blub one fourth of the answer?

::The biography section very clearly identifies him as an essayist, and specifically refers to Blub. I think that is enough.

::Other its chronological order, "Beating the Averages" has little claim to being Graham's most important essay.

::Can you imagine devoting one fourth of an article about Tom Cruise to an explanation of his roles in Top Gun and Risky Business?

::People who want details about those movies follow a link to those movies.

::If "Beating the Averages" or Blub merit their own articles, then I think they should be handled similarly.[[User:Jsolinsky|Jsolinsky]] ([[User talk:Jsolinsky|talk]]) 02:15, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

* Jsolinsky (& others) may have overlooked the fact that "Blub" section was a merger to this article from a separate one, explaining its relative length to other sections here. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:DennisDallas|DennisDallas]] ([[User talk:DennisDallas|talk]]) 08:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

== Bad graphic ==

The illustration of Graham's "levels of argument" is seriously misleading. The pyramid analogy suggests a hierarchy of dependence where there is none. In a model like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the needs placed at the higher levels — self-esteem, relationships, actualization — require the lower-ranked biological needs to be fulfilled before they can be satisfied. That's why the pyramid is an apt comparison; a triangular structure collapses if you remove part of its foundation. Graham's hierarchy, on the other hand, is a ''progression'' from bad arguments to good. Unlike in a pyramid, the levels don't cohere into a structure. Unlike in a pyramid, the higher levels don't depend on the lower ones. I'm not gonna up and delete someone's handmade image, but I'm tempted to. [[Special:Contributions/128.12.112.94|128.12.112.94]] ([[User talk:128.12.112.94|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 19:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Displaying it as a pyramid was originated by someone on createdebate.com using the name Loudacris [http://blog.createdebate.com/2008/04/07/writing-strong-arguments/ here] on April 7th, 2008. While you are correct the graphical form is not Graham's, it could be said that arguments higher on the scale are more focused or closer to the point (ie closer to the point on the top on the pyramid). It could also be said that arguments lower on the scale are less focused or spread all out (like the base). Perhaps we sould incorperate in to the article the source of the pyrimid form. It is not a bad graphic. [[User:Richard-of-Earth|Richard-of-Earth]] ([[User talk:Richard-of-Earth|talk]]) 06:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

== Outdated title parenthetical ==

Paul Graham was relatively obscure outside of programming circles before he launched Y combinator. His name recognition has skyrocketed since, and -- while I can't cite a survey -- I strongly suspect more people know him as a tech venture capitalist (and essayist thereof) than as a coder (and writer thereof). Perhaps it should be amended to Paul Graham (venture capitalist), with a redirect from the old URL? [[User:Josephgrossberg|Josephgrossberg]] ([[User talk:Josephgrossberg|talk]]) 19:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

== Stance on Israeli Palestinian conflict and accusation of holding anti-Semitic views ==

Paul Graham tweeted publicly in support of Palestinians in the Israeli Palestinian conflict in 2014. Subsequently he entered into a public back-and-forth with VC Mark Suster who suggested Graham was manifesting anti-Semitic views (see coverage in Pando and Mark Suster's blog). In light of Y-Combinator's investment in a number of Israeli start-ups this may be worth inclusion?

[[User:Freudala|Freudala]] ([[User talk:Freudala|talk]]) 19:40, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

== Recommend a link to article on Dunning-Kruger effect ==

I recommend adding links between the Wikipedia article on the Blub paradox and the article on the Dunning-Kruger effect. The Blub paradox is a special case of, and a good example of Dunning-Krueger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer)#Blub

[[Special:Contributions/68.35.173.107|68.35.173.107]] ([[User talk:68.35.173.107|talk]]) 18:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

[[Special:Contributions/68.35.173.107|68.35.173.107]] ([[User talk:68.35.173.107|talk]]) 19:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)