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== Help:Wikitable ==
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* I think that markup such as <code><nowiki>! HTML | header1</nowiki></code> adds an unnecessary step of understanding what should be written in place of "HTML", whereas <code><nowiki>! style="" | Header C1</nowiki></code> more clearly links in with the different style parameters listed just after which all work in the same way. I'm happy to split it into two steps with background example first, then color, text-align & width.
Although the [[Help:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup|intro to tables]] guide was built up over a long period of time, I'm not sure it reflected a final consensus position. When I started editing them in November, 5 of 9 sections were blank, the enhanced editing toolbar has been the default for some time, some headers were capitalised, the series had no end summary and abruptly ended, had repeated sections so I thought it could do with some attention and improvements. I think that it's not really worth starting over again, since adding older info back in deliberately will give an opportunity to think again about what needs to be explained unless my opinion is in the minority. I agree that it'll be good to get some other perspectives on the content though. [[User:Evolution_and_evolvability|T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)]]<sup>[[User talk:Evolution_and_evolvability|talk]]</sup> 12:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
:Some points:
:*"but rather to provide similar levels of detail and aimed at similarly new editors." Well yes their basic guides to rudimentary facts. And you go and remove details of adding HTML attributes, which boils down to BASIC MARKUP.
:*The original second page explained all the basic markup pertaining to tables. And the HTML section merely expanded with examples of adding HTML attributes, in case you couldn't follow the text. What the heck was wrong with that?
:*style="" IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR HTML ATTRIBUTES. HTML attributes can be class, style, rowspan, collspan etc. . By the changes you're confusing things.
:Look before completely rearranging things for the worse, how about some discussion? You seem to have confusion about BASIC TABLE MARKUP versus more advanced topics. Build a sandbox and invite people in. The reason the guide was not longer is because it is a guide to BASIC MARKUP, and this should be distinguished from more advanced topics, which have no place in these guides. But basic table markup needs to be fully described and a groundwork for more advanced topics. <b style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive;">[[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]] [[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]]</b> 23:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
::{{replyto|Mrjulesd}} I've been editing Wikipedia articles for more than nine years, and I've never added HTML to any article page. I don't consider HTML code, in articles, to be basic, in any way, shape, or form, be that for tables or for anything else. In particular, I don't think discussion of HTML belongs in an introductory tutorial. The whole point of wikitext is to shield editors from the incredible variety of HTML that is possible, some of which will break Wikipedia page formatting.
::As I wrote in another section, below, the best way to move forward with the tutorial is ''to suggest specific language''. Other than HTML, do you have any ''specific'' recommendations regarding the tutorial as now written? And by "specific", I mean specific suggested wording or wording changes, either made directly (per [[WP:BB]]), or suggested on this page. -- <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 00:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
:::Well that's were you're wrong. Basic markup for tables includes basic markup for including HTML attributes. What is the basic markup? Well this table will inform you:
{| class="wikitable"
|
<nowiki />{|
| '''Table start:''' ''it is required.''
|-
|
<nowiki />|+
| '''Table caption:''' ''it is optional.'' Only between '''table start''' and '''first table row'''
|-
|
<nowiki />!
| '''Table header cell:''' ''it is optional.'' Cells may start on new lines, each beginning with its own single mark. Cell contents may also be put on the next line.
|-
|
<nowiki />!!
| '''Consecutive table header cell:''' ''it is optional.'' Cells may be added on same lines separated by double marks.
|-
|
<nowiki />|-
| '''Table row''': ''it is optional on the first row, but otherwise required''. The wiki engine assumes the first row.
|-
|
<nowiki />|
| '''Table data cell''': ''it is required for data cells on new lines.'' Cells may start on new lines, each beginning with its own single mark. Cell contents may also be put on the next line. '''It is also used to separate HTML attributes from cell contents (both data or header), or caption contents.'''
|-
|
<nowiki />||
| '''Consecutive table data cell''': ''it is required for data cells on the same line.'' Cells may be added on same lines separated by double marks.
|-
|
<nowiki />|}
| '''Table end:''' ''it is required.''
|}
AS you may notice, the basic markup includes the single bar symbol. This bar symbol is used for separating basic markup from HTML attributes. Therefore it is basic markup to describe this. It not anything advanced, it is fundamental to table construction, as it belongs to the few symbols that are used to describe tables. How much more basic can you get?
You cannot get away from HTML attributes. class="wikitable" is needed in almost every table. class="wikitable" is a HTML attribute. Therefore every table contains an HTML attribute. It is basic. Very basic. Not advanced. Every table. Do you understand?
As for suggestions, go back to how it was, and start again. <b style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive;">[[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]] [[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]]</b> 03:06, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
:Here's what I think is "basic" table markup:
<pre>
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Header text !! Header text !! Header text
|-
| Example || Example || Example
|-
| Example || Example || Example
|-
| Example || Example || Example
|}
</pre>
:Others may disagree with me, but as far as I'm concerned, an "Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup" should cover very little that is not visible in that example.
:It doesn't really matter to me whether we decide that "class" is properly classified as HTML (because the same word is used in this context in HTML) or as wikitext (because that word is used in this context in MediaWiki core). All that matters to me is that editors understand how to make one of those and how to change them if someone else made one of those – and that they ''not'' get lost in details about hex codes or other "advanced" details that are only occasionally used in Wikipedia articles. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 19:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
::(Also, |} isn't technically required at the moment. The parser is currently cleaning up after people if they forget to close the table. It's kind of messy/unreliable, and the parser won't support this forever, but closing a table is technically not required right now.) [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 19:10, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
:::Well I disagree. There has to be a bridge between [[Help:Table]] and an introduction. That could be described in a single page. To not describe the eight symbols used by table nomenclature, and then to expect them to dive straight into incredibly complex [[Help:Table]] is at the very best extremely shortsighted. Are you really expecting for people the jump easily? <b style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive;">[[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]] [[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]]</b> 01:34, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
== Deciding on tutorial content ==
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:IMO "Positioning and layout" and "Advanced formatting" don't sound like they belong in an "introduction". Talking about collapsing tables also requires people to understand [[MOS:COLLAPSE]], which is also more advanced. I think that it might be more appropriate to focus on the simplest case – basically, the information needed to be able to create the table above, and to edit its contents (change the contents of an existing cell or add a new row to the bottom). What do other people think? [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 17:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
::I agree with [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] - the content should be relatively basic, in keeping with the word ''Introduction'' in the title, as well as other tutorials. So collapsing tables and html are, I also agree, a lesson too far. We have no need to duplicate all - or even the majority of - the information that already exists on other pages; we just need to provide links to that advanced material.
::I've added, to the second less, blank sections for adding a row - which I think is among the most common things that editors want to do - and deleting a row. A good argument could be made for moving them to a separate tab. For possible content, see the section below.
::I think the best way to make progress on this tutorial is ''with specifics''. If something is missing (or you think was removed in error) from an existing tab, either add it directly, or post a note on this page suggesting the addition. Similarly, if something on a page seems inappropriate, either edit it directly or post something here. That way, we don't have to guess exactly what other editors find problematical. For example, I've [[WP:BB|been bold]] and changed two of the tab names. -- <span style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
:::As a way of moving forward, one possibility is to revert to the original [[Help:introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/4|HTML]] page, but separate it from the basic [[Help:introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/1|intro to tables]] series. It could be kept as a help page in the same way as [[WP:Advanced_table_formatting]] and [[WP:Extended_image_syntax]]. That way we retain the depth and detail of {{oldid|Help:Introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/5|655981844|the original}}, whilst retaining the newcomer-focus of the basic sections? [[User:Evolution_and_evolvability|T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)]]<sup>[[User talk:Evolution_and_evolvability|talk]]</sup> 11:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
::::I think that's a reasonable compromise. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 19:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
== Tables tutorial at Help:TMM ==
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[[Help:Wikipedia: The Missing Manual/Formatting and illustrating articles/Creating lists and tables#Editing and creating tables]]
I think there is far more content (that is, it's much more detailed) than what should go into introductory tutorials, but again, it's something one might look at. -- <
== Spaces ==
In <code>{| class="wikitable"</code>, does that space have to be there? I'm one of those editors who prefers closing up the spaces between <code>* content</code>, so I was wondering if it had any purpose? [[User:Mac Dreamstate|Mac Dreamstate]] ([[User talk:Mac Dreamstate|talk]]) 21:14, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
:To the best of my knowledge, there's no functional difference. I've tended to add spaces to aid human readability, but I've actually no idea which is more common, or if there's a style guide preference. <span class="nowrap">[[User:Evolution and evolvability|T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)]]<sup>[[User talk:Evolution and evolvability|talk]]</sup></span> 03:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
== Where to request new extension to wikitable? ==
I'd like to be able to use a subclass, as in the following:
{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"
|-
! rowspan="2" style="width:18em;"| Title
! rowspan="2" style="width:26em;"| Album details
! colspan="5"| Peak chart positions
! rowspan="2" style="width:12em;"| [[Music recording sales certification|Certifications]]
|- style="font-size:smaller;"
! style="width:45px;"| [[Top Country Albums|US Country]]<br/><ref name="american country albums"/>
! style="width:45px;"| [[Billboard 200|US]]<br/><ref name="americanalbums"/>
! style="width:45px;"| [[RPM (magazine)|CAN Country]]<br/><ref name="canadiancountryalbums" />
! style="width:45px;"| [[RPM (magazine)|CAN]]<br/><ref name="canadianalbums"/>
! style="width:45px;"| [[UK Albums Chart|UK]]<br/><ref name="everyhit1">{{cite web|title=UK Top 40 Database|url=http://www.everyhit.com/|publisher=everyhit.com|accessdate=27 September 2010}}</ref>
|-
! scope="row"| ''[[Rumor Has It (Reba McEntire album)|Rumor Has It]]''
| style="text-align:left;"|
* Release date: September 4, 1990
* Label: MCA Records
* Formats: LP, cassette, CD, download
| 2
| 39
| —
| —
| —
| style="text-align:left;"|
* US: 3× Platinum<ref>{{cite web|title=Search results - "Rumor Has It"|url=http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=SEARCH_RESULTS&action=&title=Rumor%20Has%20It&artist=Reba&format=ALBUM&debutLP=&category=&sex=&releaseDate=&requestNo=&type=&level=&label=&company=&certificationDate=&awardDescription=&catalogNo=&aSex=&rec_id=&charField=&gold=&platinum=&multiPlat=&level2=&certDate=&album=&id=&after=&before=&startMonth=1&endMonth=1&startYear=1958&endYear=2010&sort=Artist&perPage=25|publisher=Recording Industry Association of America|accessdate=30 September 2010}}</ref>
* [[Canadian Recording Industry Association|CAN]]: Platinum<ref name="cria">{{cite web|title=CRIA searchable database|url=http://www.cria.ca/cert_db_search.php|publisher=[[Canadian Recording Industry Association]]|accessdate=28 September 2010}}</ref>
|-
! scope="row"| ''[[For My Broken Heart]]''
| style="text-align:left;"|
* Release date: October 1, 1991
* Label: MCA Records
* Formats: LP, cassette, CD, download
| 3
| 13
|style="background:#f7f9a8"| 1
| 78
| —
| style="text-align:left;"|
* US: 4× Platinum<ref>{{cite web|title=Search results - "For My Broken Heart"|url=http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=SEARCH_RESULTS&action=&title=For%20My%20Broken%20Heart&artist=Reba&format=ALBUM&debutLP=&category=&sex=&releaseDate=&requestNo=&type=&level=&label=&company=&certificationDate=&awardDescription=&catalogNo=&aSex=&rec_id=&charField=&gold=&platinum=&multiPlat=&level2=&certDate=&album=&id=&after=&before=&startMonth=1&endMonth=1&startYear=1958&endYear=2010&sort=Artist&perPage=25|publisher=Recording Industry Association of America|accessdate=30 September 2010}}</ref>
* CAN: Platinum<ref name="cria"/>
|-
! scope="row"| ''[[It's Your Call]]''
| style="text-align:left;"|
* Release date: December 15, 1992
* Label: MCA Records
* Formats: Cassette, CD, download
| 1
| 8
| 1
| 59
| —
| style="text-align:left;"|
* US: 3× Platinum<ref>{{cite web|title=Search results - "It's Your Call"|url=http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=SEARCH_RESULTS&action=&title=Your%20Call&artist=Reba&format=ALBUM&debutLP=&category=&sex=&releaseDate=&requestNo=&type=&level=&label=&company=&certificationDate=&awardDescription=&catalogNo=&aSex=&rec_id=&charField=&gold=&platinum=&multiPlat=&level2=&certDate=&album=&id=&after=&before=&startMonth=1&endMonth=1&startYear=1958&endYear=2010&sort=Artist&perPage=25|publisher=Recording Industry Association of America|accessdate=30 September 2010}}</ref>
* CAN: Platinum<ref name="cria"/>
|-
| colspan="8" style="font-size: 8pt"| "—" denotes releases that did not chart
|}
There are three cells in the table above that contain a '''1'''. It would be good if these cells were automatically shaded (as has been manually done in the second row), without additional markup in the cells themselves. I know this to be possible using CSS, so the question is how can this be achieved in wiki?
I'm thinking I need to add
class="wikitable '''discog''' plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"
or similar. And then discog can be defined elsewhere.
Am I even in the right place to suggest this?
== Automating table row numbers ==
On [[List of Masters of Cinema releases]], there is a gap in the middle of the list, at rows 117 and 118. If I removed the blanks, the numbers would not be sequential, and fixing it is a lengthy manual task. Is there a way to program the wikitable code to autopopulate the row numbers? [[User:timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 16:57, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
==References==
{{reflist}}
== Right-to-left script ==
Can anyone see why this fails to put the "fidget spinner" glyph in the second row, second column? The glyph is from a right-to-left script, connecting at the bottom like Arabic. It is {{unichar|07F7|NKO Symbol Gbakurunen}} (note how it breaks template unichar too: it should display like: {{unichar|0059|Latin capital letter Y}}.
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"
!Name!!Character!!Code point
|-
! Latin capital letter Y
| style="font-size: 4em; padding: .5em;" class="Unicode" | Y ||U+0059
|-
! [[N'Ko script]] [[wikt:gbakurunen|Gbakurunen]] ߷ <br />("[[fidget spinner]]")
| style="font-size: 4em; padding: .5em;" class="Unicode"| ߷߷ ||U+07F7
|}
This is from [[Star (glyph)]]. Suggestions welcome.--[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 22:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
== Toolbar image ==
{{re|BeenAroundAWhile}} Re [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/1&diff=prev&oldid=1039789651&diffmode=source this edit], the toolbar image ([[:File:WikiEditor-advanced menu-en.png]]) is appearing fine for me; could you take a second look? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 19:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
== Table help box ==
@[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]], I'm not really sold on having the table help box appear here — the intro tutorials are designed to be rather self-contained to simplify them, which means not having a ton of links to other outside pages that'd likely just confuse newcomers. The way this was set up before, the tutorial told you everything you needed to know for most table applications, and if you're a newcomer who really wants to do something fancy, you can follow the see also links at the end. Adding the box introduces a lot more places to read a lot more prominently, which could overwhelm or lead to banner blindness.
I'd suggest at most including this at the bottom. We also need to ensure that it doesn't show up multiple times for the /all page. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:{{re|Sdkb}} I fixed the problem on [[Help:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup/All]]. I used this on the pages being transcluded into it:
:<nowiki><noinclude>{{Table help}}</noinclude></nowiki>
:{{t|table help}} only shows up once now on the "All" page.
:I am not sure if you saw the latest version:
{{table help}}
:The intro pages are at the beginning, and are numbered. So people who are new at tables see a path. They will soon want more info though, and be quickly frustrated if they don't see a path for other info too.
:Also, the search form works much better than before. New table editors will appreciate that. It makes it far easier to find what one is looking for. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 21:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
::I view tables in wikitext as enough of a lost cause anyways I won't fight it. But I'd object to similar boxes being added for other parts of the tutorial. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::{{re|Sdkb}} I think we should ask others if they prefer the table help box at the top or bottom. Discussions elsewhere about the box have shown that people appreciate having it at the top of all the table help pages. Maybe an exception should be made for the intro pages for wikitext table editing. I personally don't think so. But let's ask around. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 22:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
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