Help talk:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup/1: Difference between revisions

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== Help:Wikitable ==

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:Look before completely rearranging things for the worse, how about some discussion? You seem to have confusion about BASIC TABLE MARKUP versus more advanced topics. Build a sandbox and invite people in. The reason the guide was not longer is because it is a guide to BASIC MARKUP, and this should be distinguished from more advanced topics, which have no place in these guides. But basic table markup needs to be fully described and a groundwork for more advanced topics. <b style="font-family:'Segoe Script',cursive;">[[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]]</b> 23:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

::{{replyto|Mrjulesd}} I've been editing Wikipedia articles for more than nine years, and I've never added HTML to any article page. I don't consider HTML code, in articles, to be basic, in any way, shape, or form, be that for tables or for anything else. In particular, I don't think discussion of HTML belongs in an introductory tutorial. The whole point of wikitext is to shield editors from the incredible variety of HTML that is possible, some of which will break Wikipedia page formatting.

::As I wrote in another section, below, the best way to move forward with the tutorial is ''to suggest specific language''. Other than HTML, do you have any ''specific'' recommendations regarding the tutorial as now written? And by "specific", I mean specific suggested wording or wording changes, either made directly (per [[WP:BB]]), or suggested on this page. -- <fontspan style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </fontspan> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 00:27, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

:::Well that's were you're wrong. Basic markup for tables includes basic markup for including HTML attributes. What is the basic markup? Well this table will inform you:

{| class="wikitable"

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::I've added, to the second less, blank sections for adding a row - which I think is among the most common things that editors want to do - and deleting a row. A good argument could be made for moving them to a separate tab. For possible content, see the section below.

::I think the best way to make progress on this tutorial is ''with specifics''. If something is missing (or you think was removed in error) from an existing tab, either add it directly, or post a note on this page suggesting the addition. Similarly, if something on a page seems inappropriate, either edit it directly or post something here. That way, we don't have to guess exactly what other editors find problematical. For example, I've [[WP:BB|been bold]] and changed two of the tab names. -- <fontspan style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </fontspan> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

:::As a way of moving forward, one possibility is to revert to the original [[Help:introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/4|HTML]] page, but separate it from the basic [[Help:introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/1|intro to tables]] series. It could be kept as a help page in the same way as [[WP:Advanced_table_formatting]] and [[WP:Extended_image_syntax]]. That way we retain the depth and detail of {{oldid|Help:Introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/5|655981844|the original}}, whilst retaining the newcomer-focus of the basic sections? [[User:Evolution_and_evolvability|T.Shafee(Evo&#65120;Evo)]]^{[[User talk:Evolution_and_evolvability|talk]]} 11:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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[[Help:Wikipedia: The Missing Manual/Formatting and illustrating articles/Creating lists and tables#Editing and creating tables]]

I think there is far more content (that is, it's much more detailed) than what should go into introductory tutorials, but again, it's something one might look at. -- <fontspan style="font-family:Brush Script MT; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </fontspan> [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 20:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

== Spaces ==

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On [[List of Masters of Cinema releases]], there is a gap in the middle of the list, at rows 117 and 118. If I removed the blanks, the numbers would not be sequential, and fixing it is a lengthy manual task. Is there a way to program the wikitable code to autopopulate the row numbers? [[User:timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 16:57, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

==References==

{{reflist}}

== Right-to-left script ==

Can anyone see why this fails to put the "fidget spinner" glyph in the second row, second column? The glyph is from a right-to-left script, connecting at the bottom like Arabic. It is {{unichar|07F7|NKO Symbol Gbakurunen}} (note how it breaks template unichar too: it should display like: {{unichar|0059|Latin capital letter Y}}.

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"

!Name!!Character!!Code point

|-

! Latin capital letter Y

| style="font-size: 4em; padding: .5em;" class="Unicode" | Y ||U+0059

|-

! [[N'Ko script]] [[wikt:gbakurunen|Gbakurunen]] ߷ <br />("[[fidget spinner]]")

| style="font-size: 4em; padding: .5em;" class="Unicode"| ߷߷ ||U+07F7

|}

This is from [[Star (glyph)]]. Suggestions welcome.--[[User:John Maynard Friedman|John Maynard Friedman]] ([[User talk:John Maynard Friedman|talk]]) 22:00, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

== Toolbar image ==

{{re|BeenAroundAWhile}} Re [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:Introduction_to_tables_with_Wiki_Markup/1&diff=prev&oldid=1039789651&diffmode=source this edit], the toolbar image ([[:File:WikiEditor-advanced menu-en.png]]) is appearing fine for me; could you take a second look? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> ^{[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]} 19:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

== Table help box ==

@[[User:Timeshifter|Timeshifter]], I'm not really sold on having the table help box appear here — the intro tutorials are designed to be rather self-contained to simplify them, which means not having a ton of links to other outside pages that'd likely just confuse newcomers. The way this was set up before, the tutorial told you everything you needed to know for most table applications, and if you're a newcomer who really wants to do something fancy, you can follow the see also links at the end. Adding the box introduces a lot more places to read a lot more prominently, which could overwhelm or lead to banner blindness.

I'd suggest at most including this at the bottom. We also need to ensure that it doesn't show up multiple times for the /all page. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> ^{[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]} 21:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

:{{re|Sdkb}} I fixed the problem on [[Help:Introduction to tables with Wiki Markup/All]]. I used this on the pages being transcluded into it:

:<nowiki><noinclude>{{Table help}}</noinclude></nowiki>

:{{t|table help}} only shows up once now on the "All" page.

:I am not sure if you saw the latest version:

{{table help}}

:The intro pages are at the beginning, and are numbered. So people who are new at tables see a path. They will soon want more info though, and be quickly frustrated if they don't see a path for other info too.

:Also, the search form works much better than before. New table editors will appreciate that. It makes it far easier to find what one is looking for. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 21:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

::I view tables in wikitext as enough of a lost cause anyways I won't fight it. But I'd object to similar boxes being added for other parts of the tutorial. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> ^{[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]} 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

:::{{re|Sdkb}} I think we should ask others if they prefer the table help box at the top or bottom. Discussions elsewhere about the box have shown that people appreciate having it at the top of all the table help pages. Maybe an exception should be made for the intro pages for wikitext table editing. I personally don't think so. But let's ask around. --[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 22:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)