Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Chase (Wikipedia hoaxer) and Joy Division: Difference between pages

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{{Infobox musical artist
===[[Brian Chase (Wikipedia hoaxer)]]===
| Name = [[Image:JoyDivision_logo_.png|200px|Joy Division]]
Notability, Non-Encylopedic, and do we really want to reward and encourage more activity like this by giving it additional notarity. {{User:SusanLarson/sig}} 16:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Img = Joy_Division.JPG
*'''Keep'''. He messed with Wikipedia, he deserves his infamy. "Revenge is a dish best served cold".
| Img_capt = Left to right: Stephen Morris, Peter Hook, Ian Curtis, Bernard Sumner
*'''Keep'''. It's interesting to read.
| Background = group_or_band
*'''Delete'''/'''Merge''' See above {{User:SusanLarson/sig}} 16:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Origin = {{flagicon|England}} [[Salford]], [[Greater Manchester]] & [[Macclesfield]], [[Cheshire]], [[England]]
*'''Delete''' and possibly '''merge''' as suggested below. No candy for vandals. [[User:PJM|PJM]] 16:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Genre = [[Post-punk]]
*'''Keep'''. Siegenthaler has said he wanted accountability, and this is evidence that Wikipedia has a certain level of transparency and accountability. Further, this story made national news and will be a notable event in the history of this project. Since this guy got "rewarded" with losing his job and apologizing in person to Siegenthaler innhopes of avoiding litigation, I don't believe this is going to encourage others. [[User:Jokestress|Jokestress]] 16:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Years_active = [[1976]]–[[1980]]
*'''Keep''' His actions and his confession are newsworthy events, and likely to be of interest for some time. [[User:Chris the speller|Chris the speller]] 16:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Label = [[Factory Records]]
*'''Strong Keep''' - He is a notable player in an event that we have [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy|already decided to keep]]. --[[User:RayaruB|RayaruB]] 16:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Associated_acts = [[New Order]]
*'''Delete''' - As per my comments in [[Talk:John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy#Brian_Chase]]. I think that a disambig link to the controversy can be made in the [[Brian Chase]] article. And to counter the transparency issues etc. It is transparent, theres a whole article about the controversy! - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 16:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
| Past_members = [[Ian Curtis]] <small>(deceased)</small><br />[[Peter Hook]]<br />[[Stephen Morris]]<br />[[Bernard Sumner]]
*'''Keep''' I'm not sure being outed and having other people write about you in a public forum is a "reward" for [[internet trolls]] like this. If anything, this is punishment. As the article mentions, this was covered in national media and is not just a big deal in the wiki community, so I think it's important enough to keep it. Besides, it smacks of [[fair comment]]. [[User:Guppy313|Guppy313]] 16:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
}}
**'''Comment''' - Does no one else think that his details belong to the [[John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy]] article? It's not like this guy is [[Nick Leeson]] or anything. - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 16:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
**I think some of us have a higher opinion of Wikipedia than others do. A search on [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Brian+Chase%22+wikipedia&filter=0&sa=N&start=10 Google news] comes up with a grand total of '''''20''''' hits for '"Brian Chase" wikipedia'. The "national media" seem to be greeting this with total silence. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' modified (which I'll do if no-one else will) into [[Wikipedia#History]]. Ideally retitle. If Wikipedia is valuable, which we presumably think it is, then deliberate sabotage of it (which this action amounts to) is notable and should be documented - if only to discourage other malicious little vandals from pulling similar stunts. [[User:SimonBrooke|Simon Brooke]] 16:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*Keep --[[User:Peripatetic|Peripatetic]] 16:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. His name can be mentioned in the controversy article. Besides that, he's totally non-notable. [[User:Jacoplane|Jacoplane]] 16:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - The story has been covered by national media, and the wikipedia webpage is linked to by many websites. Somehow this has become encyclopedic material.<small>preceding unsigned vote by [[User:202.156.6.54]], a shared IP</small>
*'''Merge''' - either with [[Wikipedia#History]] or [[John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy]]. Perhaps put up a redirect to the merged acticle. [[User:CharonX|CharonX]] 16:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect there. --[[User:Damian Yerrick|Damian Yerrick]] 16:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' or '''Merge''' - he is well known b/c of what he did --209.222.54.242
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect there. [[User:Nicodh|Nico]] 16:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''; he's been mentioned in major media now, so he's notable, and also an article on him is useful to help keep him from being confused with the musician of the same name who's already got an article. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 16:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect. No need to reward this nitwit with his own page, or to prolong the myth that this somehow hurts Wikipedia's credibility. | [[User:Keithlaw|Klaw]] [[User talk:Keithlaw|Talk]] 16:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and declare person a Dick and the enemy of wikipedia for waisting our, John Seigenthaler Sr, CNNs time. Also declare him a [[Terrorist]] or something. Just find an excuse to make his life miserable. --<small>[[User:Cool Cat|Cool Cat]]<sup>[[User talk:Cool Cat|Talk]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Cool Cat|@]]</sup></small> 16:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge'''per CharonX. Not notable enough for an article of his own. (Haven't seen this many edit conflicts since the new pope.) --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 16:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect there. --[[User:Hugus|Hugus]] 16:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I've read the deletion policy, and it doesn't fit into any of the categories. Not an acceptable candidate for deletion. [[User:Baltikatroika|Baltikatroika]] 16:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' on the above vote. "[[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is not]] an indiscriminate collection of information. News reports. Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories (however, our sister project Wikinews does exactly that). Wikipedia does have many encyclopedia articles on topics of historical significance that are currently in the news, and can be significantly more up-to-date than most reference sources since we can incorporate new developments and facts as they are made known. See current events for examples." and "Such a minor branch of a subject that it doesn't deserve an article" specifically {{User:SusanLarson/sig}} 17:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::How can the guy who ''caused the whole thing'' be considered a minor branch of the subject? [[User:Agentsoo|Soo]] 17:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
::: Because we have a pretty comprehensive article on the topic already and this is at the most a subsection of that. {{User:SusanLarson/sig}} 17:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:*User's fifth edit.
*'''Delete''' immediately. He is not notable. Just because he hoaxed Wikipedia does not make him notable. If we make an article about him, we have to make an article about every person who gets banned from Wikipedia. [[User:Zordrac|Zordrac]] [[User_talk:Zordrac|(talk)]] <small>[[M:AWWDMBJAWGCAWAIFDSPBATDMTD|Wishy Washy]] [[M:Darwikinism|Darwikinian]] [[M:Eventualism|Eventualist]]</small> 16:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
**The national media begs to differ with you. '''Keep''' for that reason, although I could tolerate merge and redirection. [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 17:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect. It's news, and linked by Slashdot so rather than break the internet and create a lot of 404 traffic we should have ''something'' there. When Wikipedia makes headlines, it's notable. The Brian Chase is not notable, but the '''story''' is.
*'''Keep''' or '''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect. —[[User:BenFrantzDale|BenFrantzDale]] 17:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]]. Seigenthaler[gate] is notable, this guy isn't. --[[User:Fermatprime|Fermatprime]] 17:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Concealing information to prevent people imitating it? That's definitely the Wikipedia way! [[User:Agentsoo|Soo]] 17:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]]. I think this needs to be here, but not on its own page. --[[User:Cpritchett42|cpritchett42]] 17:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*''Keep'' or '''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect there. It is important, but the information is slim right now and it probably doesn't (yet) warrent its own article. [[User:Drknexus|Dark Nexus]]
*'''Merge''' into Seigenthalergate and redirect. -- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter|Talk]] 17:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' or merge. This a part of Wikipedia history, although it does require editing this person has become rather famous. [[User:Taylortbb]]
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] and redirect there. The guy isn't really that notable but his actions should be recorded. [[User:RicDod|RicDod]] 17:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It's not about rewarding the guy. 1. It's about having a complete objective chronicle of something affects the Wikipedia. 2. The degree of notariety pretty much requires it. 3. If the whole deal wasn't about the Wikipedia, probably no one would have a problem with inclusion. [[User:Marcopolo|Marcopolo]] 17:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. We're keeping the [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] page, why not this? -- [[User:66.159.216.215|66.159.216.215]] 17:52, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' or '''Merge''' Not notable enough to justify an article [[User:203.109.252.196|203.109.252.196]] 17:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. We don't ignore news just because it happens to us. --<small>'''[[User:Brian0918|<font color="black">BRIAN</font>]]'''[[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color="gray">0918</font>]]</small> 17:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''', don't merge. -- [[User:Schneelocke|Schnee]] (''[[User talk:Schneelocke|cheeks clone]]'') 18:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. He is enough of a contributor to the Seigenthaler issue that there is no sense deleting the article but keeping the rest of the Seigenthaler silliness. [[User:Neilc|Neilc]] 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' or '''Keep'''. If the [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] is notable enough to keep, then this information is at least notable enough to be included on that page. [[User:Zacronos|Zacronos]] 18:04, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:*First edit.
*'''Delete''' this and [[Brian Chase (Wikipedia prankster)]]. He has less than zero notability and anything here can be covered in [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] quite easily. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel]] 18:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' If it is [http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002677060_wiki11.html newsworthy], then it should stay in Wikipedia. ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 18:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC))
*'''Merge''' into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. This man is not notable for any other reason. --[[User:Explodicle|Explodicle]] 18:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' for now. Later on, merging or not merging should be condidered. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] 18:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. -- [[User:JJay|JJay]] 18:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. -- [[User:SeanO|SeanO]] 18:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' -- This is just an event of history, therefore it should be saved from deletion. [[User:Cosmotron|Cosmotron]] 18:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
:*15th edit, only one to an article.
*'''Keep'''. -- Perhaps this may be one day noted as the beginning of the end of a truly useful Wikipedia, when out of fear of hoaxing, user anonymity is sacrificed instead of finding a better solution to problems like this. It's the onus of the Wikipedia system to ensure the information is "maintained" as correct as possible, and the solution should not be to expose users (even abusers) like Chase.{{unsigned|206.47.27.39}}
**Ahh, the true sign of a Slashdot user: indentify the "incorrect solution" without making any effort to suggest an alternate solution. --<small>'''[[User:Brian0918|<font color="black">BRIAN</font>]]'''[[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color="gray">0918</font>]]</small> 19:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' ridiculous. there are hoaxes every day. what makes this guy more noteworthy than any other wikipedia troll? is anyone going to care about him in a year? i thought not. this is an encylopedia, not a blog. [[User_talk:Derex|Derex]] 19:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' -- Oh? And how would that look to the mainstream if Wikipedia shoves this issue under the rug. Removing it would look like we are denying this event ever happened, out of embarassment. This information must be available; it's just a matter of where. See below for my suggestion to merge. --[[User:CoderGnome|CoderGnome]] 19:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' -- I don't think other Wikipedia trolls have had ''[[New York Times]]'' articles about them. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan T.*]] 19:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' for now to see where this story goes, but if this article isn't expandable beyond the hoax info, '''Merge'''. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] 19:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' -- Utterly no information that cannot be kept [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] don't reward vandals more than necessary. And by the way, Chase was exposed by an antiwiki critic, not us... [[User:Jarwulf|Jarwulf]] 19:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. -- Part of a fairly notable hoax. Like it or not, he has a lot of notoriety. [[User:Cacophony|Cacophony]] 19:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', this hoax became significant when national newspapers started reporting on it and the guy lost his job over it. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan]] 19:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and redirect. In the interest of accountability and transparency, this information must be available, but this guy isn't noteworthy outside the context of the Seigenthaler controversy. --[[User:CoderGnome|CoderGnome]] 19:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. He's an important part of that issue, but is otherwise totally nn. [[User:Canderson7|Canderson7]] <sup>([[User_talk:Canderson7|talk]])</sup> 19:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', this hoax is national news, and involves the wiki. --brokenfrog
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] --[[User:tersevs|tersevs]]
*'''Keep''' One of the complaints was lack of accountability, This shows that W is able to admit its errors and not hide it. [[User:Naelphin|Naelphin]] 20:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge and redirect'''. The guy is inextricably tied to the Seigenthaler affair and not notable outside that context. --[[User:MarkSweep|MarkSweep]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:MarkSweep|(call me collect)]]</small> 20:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Even if telling this story creates copy-cats, it is still a valid topic for Wikipedia. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Merge and redirect'''. The guy is not notable outside of Siegenthaler. [[User:Scott Ritchie|Scott Ritchie]] 20:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' as per comments above --[[User:Commodore Sloat|csloat]] 20:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]]. Yes, this person is notable, but not outside of the context of the Seigenthaler article. I think it'd be more convenient and make more sense for information about him to be in the article on main issue. [[User:Mo0|Mo0]]<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User Talk:Mo0|talk]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> 20:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It's a notable part of Wikipedia history. --[[User:MisterHand|Groucho]] 20:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' into general affair article. It is entirely possible for the person who causes a notable thing not to be notable him/herself, and this seems to be the case. [[User:JoaoRicardo|JoaoRicardo]] 20:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It's a part of Wikipedia history, like it or not. Should be linked from other pages abou this whole situation. --[[User:Ahbanks|Ahbanks]] 20:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. --'''[[User:Cyde|Cyde Weys]]''' <sub>[[User_talk:Cyde|talk]]</sub><sup><span style="position: relative; left: -16px; margin-right: -16px;">[[Special:Contributions/Cyde|contribs]]</span></sup> 20:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.
*'''Merge''' and redirect. Not notable except for this incident. It is the event that is notable, not him. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 21:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' into bio controversy article. Not notable enough to merit seperate article. [[User:Ttownfeen|Ttownfeen]] 21:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and redirect. Not notable outside this incident. If he becomes more famous later on, then he can get his own article. —[[User:Psychonaut|Psychonaut]] 21:10, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The Seigenthaler article should not become a place for discussion of this issue, but should mention it. Also, the fact that this person lost their job as a result of this should be kept around as a warning to others. --[[User:JonThompson|Jon Thompson]] 15:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC) {{unsigned|66.43.220.214|21:10, December 11, 2005}}
*'''Keep''' or '''Merge''' This is an important fact / story in the history of wikipedia, and will be around in the internet consciousness forever, so it should be documented, though this incident could be described in an article about vandalism / hoaxes on wikipedia in general. <small>&mdash;''the preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment is by'' [[User:66.245.212.72|66.245.212.72]] ([[User talk:66.245.212.72|talk]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/66.245.212.72|contribs]]) 21:16, December 11, 2005</small>
* ''Keep'' or ''Merge'' --[[User:156.34.70.132|156.34.70.132]] 21:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] and redirect there. &#126;[[User:Mdd4696|<span style="color:#333333;font:normal normal bold small sans-serif;">MDD4696</span>]] <span style="font-size:small;">([[User_talk:Mdd4696|talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/Mdd4696|contribs]])</span> 21:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and don't merge. This vote took some time and thought.
::1. The story attracted significant attention from prestigious news sources.
::2. People can become notable for a single destructive act.
::3. He lost his job over the incident. That hardly encourages imitation.
::4. If Wikipedia were not involved in the story I suspect we would vote to keep.
::5. Since Wikipedia is involved in the story we have particular reason to keep. Visitors could construe a deletion, merge, or redirect as a less than forthcoming response. [[User:Durova|Durova]] 21:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge and redirect''' -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] 21:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. [[User:216.164.193.81|216.164.193.81]] 21:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' with the controversy article. [[User:Alensha|Alensha]] 21:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' with the controversy article. This is important part of Wikipedia history. [[User:Saigon from europe|Saigon from europe]] 21:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and '''Redirect''' per above. --[[User:JiFish|JiFish]](<sup>[[User_talk:JiFish|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/JiFish|Contrib]]</sub>) 21:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge and redirect''', per [[User:Canderson7|Canderson7]]. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 21:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge and redirect''', as stated above. [[User:Omphaloscope|Omphaloscope]] &raquo; [[User_talk:Omphaloscope|talk]] 22:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' and '''Redirect''' to [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. The guy is not otherwise notable. There won't be enough material for a full biography. (Unless John Seigenthaler Sr. gets to write it.... just kidding... ) -- [[User:PFHLai|PFHLai]] 22:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Look at the big picture - in 2 days this will be gone from media attention. This is neither notable for Wikipedia as there have been numerous hoaxes that have gone on here, nor for Seigenthaler who has a lifetime of more notable experiences than this one. Were it not for his op-ed article for USA Today, this would not have been news, like if he had just edited out the hoax himself. [[User:68.145.127.91|68.145.127.91]] 22:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)Buns
*'''Delete''' Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and I don't think that pages describing edits should be allowed. Articles get reverted and edited all the time, just because this one got more press there needs to be an entire page about this guy? Sure there can be a snippet in the vandalized article that refutes the false claims, but there does not need to be an entire page that dwells on this edit alone. Leave the guy alone, there is no reason to ruin this person over an edit. Get over it people, you have a encyclopedia that anyone can edit, what did you expect? --[[User:Bryan986|Rain]] 22:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' This is an encyclopedia, and these hoaxes happen all the time. This is not ''at all'' noteworthy. Let's delete this and work on more important articles. --[[User:GilHamilton|GilHamilton]] 22:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to the controversy article. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 22:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''', as mentioned above. [[User:Gflores|Gflores]] <sup>[[User Talk:Gflores|Talk]]</sup> 22:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' No vandal should gain notability for his actions on wikipedia. -- [[User:Malo|malo]] <small>[[User_talk:Malo|(tlk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Malo|(cntrbtns)]]</small> 23:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' and Redirect. No notability outside this incident. [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster]] 23:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' or '''Keep'''. This incident was notable, and should be preserved. Plus, it shows that Wikipedia can admit to its failings, instead of hiding them. {{unsigned|128.226.230.36}}
*'''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] [[User:Kwertii|Kwertii]] 23:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.I thought it was funny. {{unsigned|71.193.8.146}}
*'''Keep'''. People will wonder whatever happened to the guy who was instrumental to the editorial by Siegenthaler in USA today. It does have encyclopaedic value. {{unsigned|83.156.85.241}}
*'''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] and Redirect. This article is not about the person "Brian Chase", but about one aspect of the Seigenthaler affair. Therefore the information should be added to the affair's article. The person Brian Chase is not notable and doesn't deserve an article. [[User:AxelBoldt|AxelBoldt]] 23:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] and Redirect. [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]] - [[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 23:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as a quick reference. Merging with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] would mean having to go through a long article. <font color="green">[[User:KF|&lt;K]][[User talk:KF|F&gt;]]</font> 23:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Its against NPOV to not list something simply becaused they did a bad thing. Also I find this notable as it triggered the anon can't create new pages anymore thing. (wouldn't mind to much if it were merge, but prefer keep) [[User:Bawolff|Bawolff]] 23:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge'''. The other article can easily support another section. Neither this or the other article is too long that merging would make it unwieldy. [[User:MeekSaffron|MeekSaffron]] 00:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' this information. Whether it should exist under this title or the controversy article is an organizational issue best left to the editing process, so merging is fine. [[User:Demi|Demi]] <sup>[[User_talk:Demi|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Demi|C]]</sub> 00:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge'''. Agree with many others above, especially MeekSaffron. Should ''not'' "keep", as this is another case of the event being much bigger than a participant. --[[User:Chan-Ho Suh|Chan-Ho]][[User talk:Chan-Ho Suh| (Talk)]] 00:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''', don't give this loser free ad space, or others will start to emulate him then come forward to say, "Hey, I was the one who vandalized [[place article title here]]. [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' and '''merge''' the information into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] ([[Seigenthalergate]] could be a useful short name for this scandal). Try to make an example out of the vandal and what happened to him so that they'll be discouraged from fucking up Wikipedia. <nowiki></nowiki> &mdash; [[User:Rickyrab|Rickyrab]] | [[User talk:Rickyrab|Talk]] 00:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
**No, I don't think that name works. ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 00:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC))
* '''Merge''' into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthalergate]] I agree with [[User:Rickyrab|Rickyrab]], it would make an example out of him. [[User:AgentFade2Black|AgentFade2Black]] 00:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::User's ninth edit.
* '''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. It provides more detailed factual information but is largely redundant and doesn't deserve a separate article. Improve the Siegenthaler article instead.
* '''Keep'''
:This is the users sole edit. I think we should disregard it (even though he's voting the way I did). ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 02:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC))
* '''Keep''' And it doesn't hurt that it pisses the guy off, he's an asshole.
:This is an anonymous vote (and he's [[Wikipedia:Civility|uncivil]]), I say disregard (even though again he voted the way I did. :( )([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 02:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC))
 
'''Joy Division''' were an [[England|English]] [[rock music|rock]] band that formed in [[1976]] in [[Salford]], [[Greater Manchester]]. With their dark, cavernous sound and use of [[guitar]]s, throbbing [[Bass (musical term) |bass]], and [[electronics]], they pioneered the [[post-punk]] sound of the late [[1970s]]. The band dissolved in May 1980 after the suicide of its lead singer, [[Ian Curtis]]. The remaining members reformed as [[New Order]] and went on to achieve much critical and commercial success.
DELETE. The man tries to hold himself up as somoene who stepped forward when he learned of the damage he caused, but the truth is, he was traced by his IP address. DELETE.
* '''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. It's the controversy, not the individual, that's notable. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] 02:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Though Joy Division found only modest success during their career, and released only two [[studio album]]s, the group have since been acclaimed as one of the most inventive, evocative and influential of their era. Thom Jurek writes, "They left just a small bit of music and an echo that still rings".<ref>http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:zy7ibkh9kakc~T1</ref>
MERGE. This article belongs with the biography. {{unsigned|69.112.90.243}}
 
==History==
* '''Keep'''or'''Merge''''--[[User:Smerk]]
===Formation===
* '''Keep'''. He is way above the bar we commonly set for notability. I'm not saying that the events are equivalent in importance, but we have an article for the driver who told [[Rosa Parks]] to give up her seat, because his action precipitated a notable event. Only merge and redirect if a new norm is being created, so I can make redirects out of the stubs of minor TV characters I keep running into. - [[User:BanyanTree|Banyan]][[User talk:BanyanTree|Tree]] 02:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The famous [[Sex Pistols]] show at the [[Free Trade Hall|Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall]] on [[July 20]] [[1976]] inspired [[Bernard Sumner]] <ref>also credited as "Bernard Dicken", "Bernard Albrecht", and "Bernard Albrecht-Dicken"</ref> and [[Peter Hook]] to form a band with their friend Terry Mason. Sumner bought a guitar, Hook a bass and Mason a drum kit. They placed an advertisement in a Manchester record store, Virgin Records, for a singer and recruited [[Ian Curtis]]. Curtis, who knew the others from previous gigs, had also attended the Sex Pistols concert, along with his wife, [[Deborah Curtis|Deborah]].
 
===Warsaw===
*'''Merge''' seems best. --[[User:Davril2020|Davril2020]] 02:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Just before their first gig on [[May 29]] [[1977]] supporting [[Buzzcocks]] and [[Penetration (band)|Penetration]] at the Electric Circus, the band renamed themselves Warsaw, even though they appeared on the bill as Stiff Kittens (suggested by Richard Boon and Pete Shelley of the Buzzcocks). Five weeks and half a dozen gigs later, Warsaw replaced Tabac with punk drummer Steve Brotherdale from another band called Panik. On [[July 18]] [[1977]], they recorded five crude punk songs that became ''[[The Warsaw Demo]]''.
*'''Keep''' or '''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]] and redirect. [[User:Rogue 9|Rogue 9]] 02:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
After recording the demo, the band fired Brotherdale. Driving home from the studio, they pulled over and asked Brotherdale to check on a "flat tire". When he got out of the car, they sped off. Brotherdale later tried to get Curtis to join Panik, but Curtis rebuffed him. The band put out an advertisement in a music shop window for a replacement drummer and hired respondent [[Stephen Morris]]. The band chose Morris because Curtis recalled him from his school days. Morris had attended the same school two years below Curtis. Unlike the band's previous drummers, Morris clicked well with the other members. His [[metronome]]-like drumming owed more to [[krautrock]] than the aggressive bombast of punk.
*'''Keep''', it's important on its own as part of Wikipedia's history. {{unsigned|208.151.246.150}} 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 
===Early work as Joy Division===
*'''Merge'''. This guy hasn't done anything remarkable beyond perpetrating the [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|Seigenthaler hoax]], which in my irrelevant opinion is completely blown out of proportion. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 02:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Warsaw renamed themselves Joy Division in late [[1977]] in order to avoid confusion with the [[London]] punk band Warsaw Pakt. ''Joy Division'' refers to a group of women used as [[Sexual slavery|sex slaves]] in [[Nazi concentration camps]], as depicted in [[Yehiel De-Nur|Ka-tzetnik 135633]]'s [[1955]] novel ''[[The House of Dolls]]''.
* '''Delete.''' [[User:Cribcage|Cribcage]] 02:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. This story has generated more press than most of what passes AfD on Wikipedia. [[User:Wikipediatrix|wikipediatrix]] 03:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Avoid self references. [[User:Rhollenton|Rhollenton]] 03:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
* Merge content & '''Delete'''. Having this article only encourages exactly the sort of behavior we don't want. —[[User:Cassowary|Felix the Cassowary]] <span class="usertalk">([[User talk:Cassowary|<span title="Ae hI: ja" class="IPA">ɑe hɪː jɐ</span>]])</span> 03:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The band's signature style formed in late 1977. Sessions recorded in December 1977 were a departure from the sound of ''The Warsaw Demo''. The group played their first gig as Joy Division on [[January 25]] [[1978]]. Regular gigs in the north of England throughout early 1978 provided the band with enough material and experience to record a debut album. However, after the studio engineer added [[synthesizer]]s to several tracks, the band scrapped the record. The album leaked as a [[Bootleg recording|bootleg]] in 1982. In 2005, the label released an official version.
* '''Merge''' Although this individual vandalized Wikipedia, he shouldn't be singled out and should instead be merged into the page on the controversy, as everything here pertains only to the controversy. --[[User:Jackson|Jackson]] 03:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' Per above. --[[User:Youremyjuliet|Dana]] 03:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' I created it as [[Brian Chase (Wikipedia prankster)]] last night because I thought he was encyclopedic (If [[Nick Leeson]] can get into Wikipedia for one screwup with major consequences, I think Chase belongs). It got turned into a redirect. Whatever. I also think this might deter non-vandalism–oriented jokes here by making sure this is what they get out of their 15 minutes. And, in that vein, I propose a new category: People who must never be allowed on Wikipedia again. (Just kidding). [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] 03:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' or '''Merge'''' with some of the mentioned articles --[[User:Chester br|Chester br]] 04:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
[[Rob Gretton]] became the band's manager in May 1978. Over the next twenty years, he contributed much to Joy Division and New Order's legacy.
*'''Keep''' for now. looking through the votes I think that [[User:Locke Cole]] nailed it; the story might not be finished playing out yet. If a few weeks go by and nothing new happens, it would be reasonable then to '''merge''' with the main controversy article. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 04:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In the summer of 1978, Joy Division debuted on vinyl with a compilation titled ''Short Circuit''. Though listed as a Joy Division composition, the title track came from the band's Warsaw days, recorded live on [[October 2]] [[1977]]. The song was preceded by Bernard Sumner (not Curtis, contrary to some references) shouting "You all forget [[Rudolf Hess]]"<ref>http://www.worldinmotion.net/joydivision/biography/history.htm</ref>. In June 1978, Joy Division released their December 1977 sessions as a 7" [[Extended play|EP]] under the title ''[[An Ideal for Living]]''. They remastered and re-released ''An Ideal for Living'' as a 12" in late 1978.
* '''Merge''' After reading many opinions listed above I have actually changed from the opinion I came here with (keep) to merge. Kudos to everyone for putting forth good arguments. [[User:akds|akds ]]
 
On [[September 20]] [[1978]], they performed on the local TV news show ''[[Granada Reports]]''; then in December 1978, they appeared on the compilation EP ''A Factory Sample'', contributing two tracks recorded a few months earlier. This EP sold out within a couple of months and was the first release to document the haunting and atmospheric sound that Joy Division had been developing since that past summer.
* '''Keep''' If Osama Bin Laden can be noteworthy then this guy should also be noteworthy. [[User:220.233.48.200|220.233.48.200]] 05:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Early 1979 saw the band gain more publicity. Curtis appeared on the front cover of the [[NME|New Musical Express]] and they recorded a radio session in January (aired on [[BBC Radio 1]] on [[February 14]] by [[John Peel]]). On [[March 4]], they supported [[The Cure]] at the [[Marquee Club]], a major venue in London.
* '''Keep''' - I've heard of so many wikiers bash on the mainstream media and encyclopedia writers by saying they cover up their own misdeeds and embarassments. Well, Brian Chase is an embarassment to the Wikipedia...and wouldn't you know, the citizen reference writers are trying to cover it up. "The more things change, the more they remain the same..." [[User:24.2.49.140|24.2.49.140]] 05:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
===''Unknown Pleasures''===
* '''Keep''' - I would say any and all factual statements belong in Wikipedia. If what was written about Brian Chase is true, and is presented from a neutral viewpoint, then it stays. [[User:Georgeccampbell]]
[[Image:Unknownpleasures.jpg|right|thumb|Joy Division's first album, ''[[Unknown Pleasures]]'']]
 
In April 1979, the band began recording their debut [[album]] ''[[Unknown Pleasures]]''. The record was bleaker and darker in tone than most of its contemporaries, featuring Hook's bass as the lead melodic instrument, drums treated with [[Reverberation|reverb]], Sumner's jagged guitar style and Curtis's [[baritone]] vocals. Producer [[Martin Hannett]] also contributed significantly to the final sound. Whereas most punk rock bands had been [[Introversion and extroversion|extroverted]] and aggressive, Joy Division were more [[Introversion and extroversion|introverted]] and personal. Despite their insularity, however, their music could be very aggressive, chaotic and at times even violent.
* '''Keep''' - Newsworthy, and the name may go down in net history/parlance as a prominent example of a particular web phenomenon. Do delete the next 225 trolls who try to achieve the notoriety in the same way. [[User:Edgarde|edgarde]] 05:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The album cover, designed by [[Peter Saville]] based on a graph of 100 consecutive pulses from the [[pulsar]] [[PSR B1919+21|CP 1919]], is regarded as a classic of [[Minimalism|minimalist]] sleeve design{{Fact|date=February 2007}}. The image was found by Sumner in a book of astronomy and represents "the final flashes of a dying star." ''Unknown Pleasures'' was released in June while Joy Division were recording five songs for [[Piccadilly Magic 1152|Piccadilly Radio]].
* '''Merge''' with [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. [[User:Tregoweth|tregoweth]] 05:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
They performed on Granada TV again in July, made their only nationwide TV appearance in September on [[BBC Two|BBC2]], supported The Buzzcocks in a 24-venue UK tour during October and November, and performed on Peel's show again in December.
* '''Merge''' His life is only notable in the context of this particular event, thus it should be merged with the article about the event. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 05:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Despite the fact that ''Unknown Pleasures'' was selling well and receiving good reviews from the music press, all was not well. Curtis, who suffered from [[epilepsy]], would often have onstage [[Seizure|tonic-clonic seizures]] that resulted in unconsciousness and convulsions, or [[absence seizure]]s that would cause brief trance-like pauses.
*'''Merge''' he's just not notable enough. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 05:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
===European tour and ''Closer''===
*'''Keep''', notable, in my opinion. Plus his reputation needs to be punished. -- [[User:Natalinasmpf|Natalinasmpf]] 06:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
{{Sound sample box align right|Music samples:}}
{{Listen
|filename=JoyDivisionShesLostControl.ogg
|title="She's Lost Control"
|description=Sample of "She's Lost Control" from ''[[Unknown Pleasures]]''
|format=[[Ogg]]}}
{{Listen
|filename=JoyDivisionLoveWillTearUsApart.ogg
|title="Love Will Tear Us Apart"
|description=Sample of "Love Will Tear Us Apart" from ''[[Substance (Joy Division album)|Substance]]''
|format=[[Ogg]]}}
{{Listen
|filename=JoyDivisionAtmosphere.ogg
|title="Atmosphere"
|description=Sample of "Atmosphere" from ''[[Substance (Joy Division album)|Substance]]''
|format=[[Ogg]]}}
{{Listen
|filename=Joy Division-24 hours.ogg
|title="24 Hours"
|description=Sample of "24 Hours" from ''[[Closer (Joy Division album)|Closer]]''
|format=[[Ogg]]}}
{{sample box end}}
 
In January 1980, Joy Division set out on a European tour. Several dates were cancelled due to Curtis's deteriorating health.
*'''Merge''' This guy is not important enough to have his own article. Just because he was responsible for the mess does not merit a seperate page for himself. Please merge it into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. Natalinasmpf, I'm sorry, but we are not here to punish people for their mistakes... we are maintaining an encyclopedia, not a newspaper... [[User:Jam2k|Jam2k]] 06:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
On February 28, the band played a gig at the Warehouse in Preston. The gig was plagued with sound problems but was later released on Dynamic Records.
*'''Merge''' - If every two-bit Wikipedia vandal got an article written about them, we'd have a whole lot of articles... - [[User:Mark|Mark]] 07:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
With Martin Hannett again producing, the band began recording their second album ''[[Closer (Joy Division album)|Closer]]'' at the end of the European tour in March.
*'''Keep'''. It's the first big hoax for Wikipedia, and one of the 'turning points' for the Internet.
 
On [[April 8]], the band played a gig at the [[Derby Hall (Bury)|Derby Hall]] in [[Bury]]. After jamming with support band [[Section 25]], Joy Division's set began with Alan Hempstall of [[Crispy Ambulance]] and Simon Topping of [[A Certain Ratio]] filling in for Curtis who was initially too ill to perform. Curtis did manage to return, but only for a few songs. When the band resumed jamming without their singer, some members of the audience protested, turning the gig into a riot in which Hook, Gretton, and other crew members fought with angry onlookers. (Johnson 1984)
*'''Delete and no merge''' and I am very stongly about that. This story was interesting, but it has gone to far. Let it die. Do we really want this in a published book of Wikipedia if it ever happens? --[[User:Bugs5382|^BuGs^]] 08:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' Then I suppose we don't need the [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|controversy article]] also, if your view is considered. But that page has already been voted to be kept and merging this into that would be the most appropriate thing to do. [[User:Jam2k|Jam2k]]
 
Following a one-off gig in early May 1980, the band took a two-week rest in anticipation of their scheduled American tour.
*'''Keep'''. Wikipedia's reputation suffered because of the actions of Brian Chase.
**So? Everytime a twelve year old puts a penis in [[George W. Bush]] makes Wikipedia's reputation suffer (provided someone sees it, of course).--[[User:Sean Black|Sean]]|[[User talk:Sean Black|Bla]]<font color="green">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|ck]]</font> 08:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge'''. His life is not that interesting aside from this singular act. I vote to merge it with the [[John_Seigenthaler_Sr._Wikipedia_biography_controversy]]. [[User:jasker|jasker]]
*'''Merge''' into Seigenthalergate, or, failing that, '''delete'''.--[[User:Sean Black|Sean]]|[[User talk:Sean Black|Bla]]<font color="green">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|ck]]</font>
 
===Curtis' infidelity===
*'''Merge''' into [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy]]. ''Punishing the vandal's reputation'' should not be a factor here, we should follow the same criteria as for any other article. It is pretty clear that this bio is non-notable apart from the controversy. [[User:Dforest|Dforest]] 08:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
At the time, Curtis's relationship with his wife Deborah was collapsing because of his infidelity with a Belgian woman, Annik Honoré, whom he had met on tour (no photograph of Honoré had been published until the 2006 book ''Torn Apart: The Life of Ian Curtis'' by Middles & Reade in which Annik gives her first public account of their relationship).
*'''Keep''' although it is unfortunate there are so many, erm, strange votes here. [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me]] 08:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
*'''Merge''': cost of peace of mind for John Seigenthaler: one man's job. Damage done to free speech by free speech advocate: incalculable. Putting the whole hazerai in [[John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy|one place]], and granting Brian Chase the mercy of relative anonymity: priceless. - [[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]] 08:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
===The End of Joy Division===
On May 18th, 1980, the evening before Joy Division were to embark on their first [[United States|American]] tour, Curtis returned to his home and convinced his wife, Deborah, to spend the evening at her parents' house. He watched the [[Werner Herzog]] film "[[Stroszek]]", then listened to the [[Iggy Pop]] album "[[The Idiot (album)|The Idiot]]" and wrote a letter to his estranged wife. He then hanged himself in the kitchen using a [[clothesline]]. Deborah found him the following morning.
 
According to many interviews, the members of Joy Division had made a pact that, should any member leave the group, or perhaps die, the remaining members would abandon the name "Joy Division" and all material associated with it. The remaining members held true to this commitment, and Joy Division was officially disbanded.
 
===Side project===
In the summer of 1980, "[[Love Will Tear Us Apart]]" hit number 13 on the British singles chart, their biggest commercial success to date. In July 1980, ''Closer'' was finally released to overwhelmingly positive reviews; it also charted, peaking at number 6 on the British album chart. Sales of ''Unknown Pleasures'' were also robust.
 
Joy Division did not end in 1980 but its members began touring and recording music under a different name. In June 1980, they entered Graveyard Studios with fellow Factory Act [[Kevin Hewick]] for a session, produced by Martin Hannett. The track was called 'Haystack'. It was not released as a single by Factory, but was later released on a Kevin Hewick compilation.
 
Eventually renaming themselves "[[New Order]]," the band was reborn. There is some debate as to whether the new name referred simply to the 'new order' of the band or if it was a reference to [[Nazi]] [[Nazi Germany|Germany]] as was the name Joy Division. Alternating between guitar-drum-bass and electronic styles, the band's music reached and inspired a variety of listeners. [[New Order]] is often cited as one of the leading [[Synthpop]] and [[dance music]] groups of their era, yet their use of traditional rock instruments such as guitars and live drums has reached a level of influence comparable with their landmark electronic works.
 
===Legacy===
The band, and especially Ian Curtis, has been an inspiration for a number of musicians that include [[Radiohead]], [[Doves]], [[U2]], [[The Smashing Pumpkins]], [[Manic Street Preachers]], [[Trent Reznor]] (who, as [[Nine Inch Nails]], covered "Dead Souls" for the [[soundtrack]] of the movie ''[[The Crow (film)|The Crow]]''), [[Robert Smith (musician)|Robert Smith]] of [[The Cure]], and [[Red Hot Chili Peppers]] guitarist [[John Frusciante]]. The continuing importance of Joy Division was shown at the turn of the millennium when Peel asked his listeners to vote for the all-time Festive 50. At number one was the haunting "Atmosphere", while "Love Will Tear Us Apart" sat at number three. Three more songs from the band sat on the list. The ending solo from "New Dawn Fades", as performed by [[Moby]], was featured in the [[1995]] film ''[[Heat (film)|Heat]]'' as [[Al Pacino]] chases down [[Robert De Niro]]. In [[1999]], a local [[New Jersey]] band named [[Thursday (band)|Thursday]] recorded a song called "[[Ian Curtis]]" that included [[Joy Division]] song titles, such as [[Isolation (Joy Division song)|Isolation]], [[Heart & Soul (Joy Division song)|Heart & Soul]] and [[Twenty Four Hours (Joy Division song)|Twenty Four Hours]], as lyrics.
 
Much of the history of Joy Division was portrayed in the 2002 [[Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer|MGM]]/[[United Artists]] released film ''[[24 Hour Party People]]'' which presented a somewhat fictionalised account of the rise and fall of the [[Factory Records]], with whom both Joy Division and New Order were signed. In [[2005]], plans for a movie – ''[[Control: The Ian Curtis Film]]'', directed by [[Anton Corbijn]] – depicting Curtis' life were also revealed. Plans are underway for the group's remaining members to record a [[soundtrack]] for the film under the name Joy Division. Live performances are also being considered. <ref>http://www.neworderonline.com/News/News.aspx?NewsID=1165</ref> "Control" is said to be based on both the Deborah Curtis bio and the new bio "Torn Apart" by Mick Middles and Lindsay Reade.
 
Control is slated to premiere at the 2007 Cannes Film Festival. Curtis will be played by 24 Hour Party People star Sam Riley who played Mark E. Smith, while his wife Deborah will be portrayed by Samantha Morton who appeared in Minority Report and Alexandria Maria Lara will play Curtis' mistress Annik Honore. The members of New Order are reportedly quite unhappy with how the movie is being handled, but many of them are still slated to attend the premiere.
 
In 2005, Joy Division were accepted along with [[New Order]] into the [[UK Music Hall of Fame]].
 
==Equipment==
Joy Division often experimented with different sounds, especially once in collaboration with [[Martin Hannett]]. Within the band, it is said that Sumner was the driving force behind new instrumental ideas and usage. He, for instance, instigated the use of synthesizers in Joy Division's music. Ironically the band had been unhappy with the 1978 scrapped RCA album recordings because the producer had dared to use synthesizers.
 
[[Synthesizer]]s were used quite predominantly in the latter part of the band's career, featuring prominently in songs such as "Isolation", "Decades" and "The Eternal" from the ''Closer'' album as well as "Atmosphere" and "Something Must Break". Interestingly, an outtake from the Closer sessions, "As You Said" (sometimes called "Incubation 2") subsequently released on the FAC28 flexi-disk and on the CD box set ''Heart And Soul'', is entirely electronic in its sound, and is one of only two Joy Division songs that doesn't include any vocals (the other track being "Incubation").
 
Synthesizers at the time were notoriously prone to overheating and going out of tune - Joy Division's ARP String Machine and Powertran Transcendent were no exceptions - as the synthesizer on the live version of "Decades" featured on "Still" testifies. Another problem with using a synthesizer live was that Sumner, the group's lead guitarist, was obviously not able to play both synthesizer and guitar at the same time. For this reason, Ian Curtis took over basic guitar duties on some live tracks. "I Remember Nothing", "Heart and Soul", "Atmosphere", "Love Will Tear Us Apart" and "Incubation" all featured Curtis playing the electric guitar live, although it is unlikely that Curtis played guitar on studio recordings. The increasing use of the synthesizer towards the latter part of Joy Division's existence supports a possible theory that Joy Division may well have taken the electronic based direction that New Order were to take had Curtis not died. In a 2005 [[Q (magazine)|Q magazine]] article, the members of New Order confirmed this was the case, and that if Curtis had still been alive they would have charted the same path, French disco diversions and all.
 
Footage exists of Curtis playing Sumner's Shergold Custom Masquerader and also [[VOX Phantom]] guitar/organ and VOX Teardrop guitars, which were apparently cheap at the time. Although not a skilled guitarist, Curtis' playing enhanced the band's sound at live gigs. Sumner, as previously mentioned, was the group's lead guitarist and used two or more different models with Joy Division; the mentioned Shergold Custom Masquerader and a [[Gibson SG]] Standard were two he is definitely known to have used.
 
Peter Hook chose to play his bass guitar more like a lead guitar on many tracks. This enabled songs to have more dominant bass riffs to complement the other instruments. Hook started to use a Shergold Marathon six stringed bass guitar on the "Closer" album, which allowed for higher notes to be played on the bass. He continued to use the Marathon with New Order, as well as a conventional Yamaha BB1200 four-stringed bass. His original bass, a [[Rickenbacker]] copy was destroyed after an altercation during a gig in Manchester in September 1979. Hook also performed backing vocals for the group and was the 'other voice' on the song "Interzone". On the tracks "Atrocity Exhibition" and "Sound Of Music", Hook and Sumner swapped instruments so that Hook was playing electric guitar and Sumner bass guitar.
 
The [[melodica]] was another instrument used by Joy Division during a select few recording sessions: briefly on "Decades" and quite predominantly on "In a Lonely Place", which only exists as a rehearsal recording (this recording can be heard in the "Heart and Soul" box set). New Order used the melodica a number of times and were said to have "inherited" it from Curtis, who purchased one after hearing it used by dub-reggae artist [[Augustus Pablo]]. Sumner apparently didn't look after the original very well and was seen to smash it to bits over the back of his head during a New Order gig at the 'Talbot Tabernacle' in [[London]] shortly after the release of their first album ''Movement''.{{Fact|date=February 2007}}
 
Morris used an expansive drum kit to allow a great ranges of rolls, rhythm shifts and beats. Morris seemed to be the most physically active band member behind Curtis, especially on tracks such as "She's Lost Control" and "Transmission" where the insistent beat fuelled Curtis' gyrations. Morris also used Simmons and Synare electronic drumpads and a [[BOSS]] DR-55 [[drum machine]] on some songs ("Insight", "She's Lost Control", "Isolation", "Decades") in combination with conventional drums to broaden the tonal palette.
 
==Live performances==
<!-- Image with unknown copyright status removed: [[Image:Jdparis.jpg|300px|thumb|right|Joy Division on stage in Paris]] -->The usual scene at a Joy Division gig was Curtis in the middle at the front, with Sumner to his right and Hook to left, and Morris and his drum kit behind him. The band usually played with little light, probably because of Curtis's epilepsy, which sometimes inhibited his performances. Curtis usually held onto the microphone stand for most of a song, only leaving it to dance. He sometimes walked off stage after he had finished his vocals, leaving the rest of the band to finish the song without him.
 
Also, Curtis very rarely spoke to the audience at gigs apart from the occasional "thank you" at the end of a song. At the Preston Warehouse gig in 1980, Curtis was unusually talkative (in order to keep the audience informed of the equipment failure the band suffered partway through the set). This gig has since been issued on a CD which culminates in a version of "She's Lost Control" despite the equipment failures.
 
==Accusations of neo-Nazism==
The band's name reflected a desire to challenge taboos, and this choice, along with Sumner's adoption of the surname ''Albrecht'', garnered the band criticism for their perceived insensitivity. Accusations of [[neo-Nazism]], a charge the group denied, dogged them for the remainder of the band's career. These accusations resurfaced after Joy Division broke up and reformed as [[New Order]], a name sometimes interpreted as a reference to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s speeches promising "the new order of the [[Nazi Germany|Third Reich]]", although the band have stated they got the name from a newspaper article on the new society the [[Khmer Rouge]] had envisaged for [[Cambodia]].
 
==Members==
===Main Members===
*[[Ian Curtis]] − vocals, guitar
*[[Bernard Sumner]] a.k.a. Bernard Albrecht a.k.a. Bernard Dicken − guitar, keyboards
*[[Peter Hook]] − bass
*[[Stephen Morris]] − drums
 
===Other Members===
*Terry Mason − drums (mid-1976 to May 1977)
*Tony Tabac − drums (May to June 1977)
*Steve Brotherdale − drums (June to August 1977)
 
==Discography==
===Albums===
<gallery>
Image:Unknownpleasures.jpg|<center>'''''[[Unknown Pleasures]]'''''<br />(Factory - 1979) UK #71</center>
Image:JoyDivisionCloseralbumcover.jpg|<center>'''''[[Closer (Joy Division album)|Closer]]'''''<br />(Factory - 1980) UK #6</center>
Image:Joydivisionstill.jpg|<center>'''''[[Still (Joy Division album)|Still]]'''''<br />(Factory - 1981) UK #5</center>
Image:Joy Division-Substance (album cover).jpg|<center>'''''[[Substance (Joy Division album)|Substance]]'''''<br />(Factory - 1988) UK #7</center>
</gallery>
 
*''[[The Peel Sessions (Joy Division album)|The Peel Sessions]]'' (LP, Strange Fruit SFRLP 211, 1986, 1987)
**''[[The Complete BBC Recordings]]'' (CD, Strange Fruit, 2000) &mdash; Peel Sessions, ''Something Else'' appearance, interview
*''[[Permanent (album)|Permanent]]'' (compilation, 1995) UK #16
*''[[Heart and Soul (album)|Heart & Soul]]'' (4 CD complete works, 1997)
*''[[Preston Warehouse]] 28&nbsp;February 1980'' (live)
*''[[Les Bains Douches]] 18&nbsp;December 1979'' (live)
*''[[The Warsaw Demo|Warsaw]]'' (Very early recordings, released in 1994)
*''Fractured Box Set'' (Preston and Les Bains Douche live albums in special packaging)
*''Re - Fractured Box Set'' (Preston and Les Bains Douche live albums together with a third disc containing recordings from a concert in Amsterdam. Also contains simple poster and a T-shirt sporting the word 'Refractured' all contained in a special box. Released in 2004 in limited numbers)
 
===Singles and EPs===
* ''[[An Ideal for Living]]'' (UK, 1978)
* "[[Transmission (song)|Transmission]]" (UK, 1979)
* ''[[Licht und Blindheit]]'' (France, 1980)
* "[[Komakino]]" (UK, 1980)
* "[[Love Will Tear Us Apart]]" (UK, 1980)
* "[[Atmosphere/She's Lost Control]]" (UK/US, 1980)
* ''The First Peel Session'' (UK, 1986)
* ''The Second Peel Session'' (UK, 1987)
* "Atmosphere" (UK, 1988)
* "Love Will Tear Us Apart" (UK, 1995)
 
===Video===
*''Here Are the Young Men''
*''Joy Division: Under Review'' Region 2 DVD only available Oct.31 2006
 
===Compilation appearances===
*''Short Circuit: Live at the Electric Circus'' (10" LP, Virgin VCL 5003, June 1978) &mdash; "At a Later Date"
*''A Factory Sample'' (2×7", Factory FAC 2, January 1979) &mdash; "Digital," "Glass"
*''Earcom 2: Contradiction'' (12"EP, Fast Product FAST 9B, October 1979) &mdash; "Autosuggestion," "From Safety to Where...?"
 
There are also a tremendous number of bootleg recordings, both live and studio.<ref>[http://www.gerpotze.com/joydivision/hatym.htm]</ref>
 
==Trivia==
*"No Love Lost", an early Joy Division/Warsaw track, contains a lyrical reference to [[Yehiel De-Nur|Ka-Tzetnik 135633]]'s 1955 book ''[[The House of Dolls]]'':
:"...Through the wire screen, the eyes of those standing outside looked in at her as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo.
:In the hand of one of the assistants she saw the same instrument which they had that morning inserted deep into her body.
:She shuddered instinctively.
:No life at all in the house of dolls.
:No love lost..."
* The name change to ''Warsaw'' was purportedly inspired by the [[David Bowie]] track ''Warszawa'', found on his 1977 album ''[[Low (album)|Low]]''.
* When the band recorded ''Closer'', Curtis was given a copy of the album on cassette, although he didn't have a cassette player to play it on.
* The first song the band recorded with Hannett as producer was "Digital". This was also the last song they ever performed live before Curtis' death.
* [[Squarepusher]] did a cover of 'Love Will Tear Us Apart', it is released on the [[Warp Records]] label ('[[Do You Know Squarepusher]]' LP)
* Sometime after [[Richey James Edwards|Richey Edwards]], the troubled guitarist and lyricist of Welsh rockers Manic Street Preachers disappeared without a trace in 1995, Peter Hook met with the Manic Street Preachers and due to the many comparisons between Richey and Ian Curtis, Peter said upon meeting the other band "I'm sorry to hear about Richey...at least we had a body."<ref>''Everything: A Book About Manic Street Preachers'' (1999) by Simon Price</ref>
*The song [[Love Will Tear Us Apart]] featured in a scene in the 2001 film ''[[Donnie Darko]]'' (Donnie has to leave his girlfriend to save her), the film about the Manchester music scene, [[24 Hour Party People]], the film [[Series 7: The Contenders]], and the [[Doctor Who]] episode [[School Reunion (Doctor Who)|School Reunion]].
*The song "Atrocity Exhibition", from the album ''Closer'', shares its title with the novel ''[[The Atrocity Exhibition]]'' by [[J. G. Ballard]].
*The song "I.C. Water", by [[Psychic TV]], is a song about Ian Curtis. [[Genesis P-Orridge]] of Psychic TV and Ian Curtis were friends.
*The Song "[[Ryan Giggs|Giggs will tear you apart]]" is often heard at [[Old Trafford (football)|Old Trafford]]. It has been said that Ian Curtis was a [[Manchester City|City ]] fan, although he often used to wear a United scarf.
*[[Davey Havok]] and [[Jade Puget]] of American Rock band [[AFI]] have tattoos of the lyrics "Love Will Tear Us Apart"
*The record label [[Three One G]] got their name from the Warsaw chorus.
*Their song Shadowplay was covered by the Killers at the Nme awards 2007. <ref>http://www.nme.com/news/nme-awards/26758</ref>
*On 3rd of April, a pair of Joy Division [[New Balance]] sneakers where showcased in Manchester. <ref>http://www.newbalance-blog.com/2007/04/03/joy-division-custom-nb/</ref>
*Fall Out Boy did a cover of "Love will tear us apart" on 'My Heart will Always be the B-side to my Tounge'
 
==References==
* <references/>
* ''[[24 Hour Party People]]'' (film, 2002)
* [[Ka-Tzetnik 135633]] (pseudonym of [[Yehiel De-Nur]]). ''[[The House of Dolls]]''. 1955. Trans. from the [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] by Moshe M. Kohn. New York: Simon and Schuster.
* Curtis, Deborah. ''Touching from a distance: Ian Curtis and Joy Division.'' London: Faber, 1995 (2nd ed. 2001, 3rd ed. 2005). ISBN 0-571-17445-0
* Ott, Chris. ''Unknown Pleasures.'' (33⅓ series) New York: Continuum, 2004. ISBN 0-8264-1549-0
*Mick Middles, Lindsay Reade . "Torn Apart: The Life of Ian Curtis" London. Omnibus Press, 2006. ISBN 1-84449-826-3
*Their song Shadowplay was covered by the Killers at the Nme awards 2007.http://www.nme.com/news/nme-awards/26758
 
==External links==
* [http://www.tate.org.uk/tateetc/issue10/outoftheblue.htm/ Jon Wozencroft on the ''Unknown Pleasures'' cover with Peter Saville in '''TATE ETC.''' Issue 10, Summer 2007]
 
=== Fans websites ===
* [http://www.iancurtis.org Joy Division Fans Club] &ndash; For Fans of Joy Division and Ian Curtis
* [http://members.aol.com/lwtua/joydiv.htm Joy Division Central] &ndash; Independent Joy Division site covering every aspect of the band. Very thorough and generally the first with any news.
* [http://www.incubation.ch Incubation] &ndash; Joy Division's most detailed discography and press articles
 
=== Tribute Bands ===
* [http://www.transmissionlive.com Transmission - The Sound of Joy Division]
 
 
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[[Category:Joy Division|*]]
[[Category:Post-punk|Joy Division]]
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[[Category:Music from Manchester]]
[[Category:New Order]]
[[Category:1970s music groups]]
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[[Category:Musical groups established in 1976]]
 
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