Help talk:References and page numbers: Difference between revisions

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== p. vs. pp. ==

I recently had another editor change my references which look like this:

:{{tlx|cite|...|p{{=}}300–305}} and {{code|Johnson, 2008, p. 300–305}}

to this:

:{{tlx|cite|...|pp{{=}}300–305}} and {{code|Johnson, 2008, pp. 300–305}}

Is there any guidance in [[WP:MOS]] or other Wikipedia-namespace pages on this point? I never use {{code|pp.}} and never thought twice about it. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 04:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

:Conventionally, "p." is short for "page" and "pp." is short for "pages". So if you want to cite a single page whose number is hyphenated, use "p. 300-305." If you want to cite multiple pages, use "pp. 300–305" (note also the en-dash in place of the hyphen). —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 04:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

::{{mention|Daask}} A real-world example of {{u|David Eppstein}}'s hyphenated-"''p.''" example would be the [[Olean Times Herald]] newspaper, which like many print dailies is divided into several letter-designated sections. So, a page number from the paper would be e.g. "p. A-1" or "p. D-4", whereas a range of pages might be "pp. A-2–A-4". (Or would that be "pp. A-2–4"? Come to think of it I don't really know the convention on that myself.) -- [[User:FeRD NYC|FeRD_NYC]] ([[User talk:FeRD NYC|talk]]) 07:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

:::{{reply to|David Eppstein}} I guess I'm familiar with the convention, but didn't realize it was used on Wikipedia. I figured page numbers could be parsed to present ranges as ''pp.'' if they really wanted to, but you remind me that parsing isn't always easy. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 07:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

== What about the studio album source ==

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Since page numbers in ebooks can change depending on the font size that's set by a reader, how should ebooks be cited? [[User:Rootsmusic|rootsmusic]] ([[User talk:Rootsmusic|talk]]) 15:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

:This is a great question but I am unsure if this is the right place to ask it. I don't know where else to take it, but I don't think it's here. Let me know if you ever find out where to go to get an answer on that :/ <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 04:47, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:Following up on this. I think [[WP:PAGENUM]] offers the closest I've seen to guidance on this topic, while the conversation just above us here, under "What about quoting the source?", gives us a practical, real-world solution to citing to an ebook - include the referenced text in the citation (as long as it's, y'know, within reason). <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 18:05, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== PDF page numbers: real vs labeled ==

When citing a PDF and trying to include a page number, there is this common confusion because often the actual page number of the PDF itself is not the same as the page number label on a given page (due to, for example, early pages within a document not being numbered by the authors). So is the best practice to use the real PDF page numbers as they would be counted by a PDF viewer, or to use the labels placed on pages (if they are present) by the authors of the PDF? I believe the generally accepted standard is the latter (use the author's page numbers if they are there). True?

Fun fact: the PDF file format actually allows pages to be given explicit numbers (labels) by the authors that are also respected by the PDF viewer, but few people use this capability. https://opensource.adobe.com/dc-acrobat-sdk-docs/pdflsdk/apireference/PD_Layer/PDPageLabel.html [[User:Surlyhacker|Surlyhacker]] ([[User talk:Surlyhacker|talk]]) 06:48, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:My preference is to use labels on pages if they are present, and to use the position within the pagination of the pdf document only when pages are unlabeled. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:18, 28 May 2025 (UTC)