Help talk:References and page numbers: Difference between revisions

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== What about the studio album source ==

== Standard Edition Pages? ==

What arpbout the L.P.? [[User:Oreratile1207|Oreratile1207]] ([[User talk:Oreratile1207|talk]]) 19:22, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

In the area of philosophy, and presumably several others (classics, etc.), we typically find it very useful to cite page numbers of standardized editions of an author's works as compiled in their original language, rather than specific English-language versions, and the former are usually listed along the margins of good scholarly editions. For instance, my edition of a work by Kant may describe his categorical imperative on p.73; yours might have it on p.7, or 213, or somewhere else. But if I cite it as "4:421" (volume 4, page 421, understood to be from the standard "Prussian Academy" edition of his works compiled many years ago), we can each look that up on our margins and quickly find that passage. Can we add a section specifying how and when this might be done?[[User:ScottForschler|ScottForschler]] ([[User talk:ScottForschler|talk]]) 17:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

:{{replyto|Oreratile1207}} this is the [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] for discussing improvements to the page [[:Help:References and page numbers]]. I cannot find what your question relates to. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:40, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

::On the Citation [[User:Oreratile1207|Oreratile1207]] ([[User talk:Oreratile1207|talk]]) 19:41, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

:::Now I'm ''really'' confused. Which citation? But from your two posts here, it looks like you are asking for help about using or editing Wikipedia. This is not the right place: you should post at [[WP:HD|the help desk]], but you will need to state where (such as: which article, which section) you are experiencing difficulty. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

== Help-page guidance re: parenthetical referencing ==

{{u|Biogeographist}} has taken both the time and the initiative to improve this help page both generally, and specifically by removing the parenthetical reference examples in the wake of [[Special:PermanentLink/976895063#Deprecate parenthetical citations|their recent deprecation]].

(And if I might be permitted to editorialize...)

<div style="margin-left: 0.5em; background-color: #e0f00020;">Biogeographist was one of the more vocal opponents of the proposed deprecation. Ultimately, it was determined that [[WP:CON|consensus]] went the other way.

* For a proposal's opponents to accept and abide by the proposed deprecation is simply what's expected of all Wikipedians.

* <p>Taking action to implement such decisions is also the norm for both supporters and opponents among Wikipedia's dedicated core of contributors, including Biogeographist (as these recent edits reaffirm). The community enjoys a long history of respecting consensus above both personal opinion and ego.</p><p>(There's no shortage of history demonstrating the complete opposite, of course. But I like to think that as a group, we generally take our ideals to heart and strive to embody them.)</p>

* But for an editor to then take the opportunity, in the course of performing those necessary edits, to also make sweeping improvements to the ''rest'' of the page, goes above-and-beyond.

In summary, we are an awesome community of which Biogeographist is an awesome example, and we should all be proud of how terrifically awesome we are. Thank you for attending my TED Talk.</div>

Regarding parenthetical references, though, the implementation plan for the deprecation proposed by {{u|CaptainEek}} was outlined by {{u|Francis Schonken}} thusly:

{{tqb|by=Francis Schonken|I suppose a proposal to implement the proposed deprecation at [[WP:CITEVAR]] might look somewhat like this:{{Talk quote block| Add a bullet to [[WP:CITEVAR#Generally considered helpful]]:

* Converting [[Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing|parenthetical references]] to numbered footnotes, unless either 1 or 2 below, or both, apply:

*# The article is about a topic for which, in reliable sources, parenthetical references are commonly used, and there is an established consensus on the article's talk page that the article will only use parenthetical references.

*# The conversion creates a mess.}}

This implementation proposal seeks a middle way between very hard implementation ideas (e.g., deprecate outright and/or enforce by bot) and softer implementation ideas (e.g. only deprecate for new pages), both directions already being elaborated in the survey area below.}}

I concur that this strikes a good balance and provides a reasonable way forward on existing articles containing the now-deprecated reference style. However, given that some parenthetical referencing will remain in Wikipedia articles (or at least small pockets of them) for the foreseeable future, there's a reasonable chance for any editor to encounter those references at some point. So, I'm wondering if this help page should still make ''mention'' of the fact that some articles may contain references in a now-deprecated format, and what the options are in making new edits to those articles. Perhaps just a quick one-sentence note linked to the updated section of [[WP:CITEVAR]]? (NOT, by any means, to the deprecation discussion/decision itself!)

I understand the need to keep things simple, and to generally avoid creating confusion for new/inexperienced ones with documentation on how things ''aren't'' supposed to be done (anymore). There's no question in my mind that the help page should no longer provide '''examples''' in the deprecated format. My only concern is whether we should try to prepare editors who may encounter parenthetical references "in the wild", as that could otherwise be a source of confusion as well? -- [[User:FeRDNYC|FeRDNYC]] ([[User talk:FeRDNYC|talk]]) 13:00, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|FeRDNYC}} Thanks for the appreciative "TED Talk" above and for raising these important issues here! I don't yet have an answer to your questions but wanted to acknowledge your gracious mention of my efforts on this page. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 13:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

: For clarity, the outline I posted in the RfC's lead section was not followed, neither by those participating in the RfC, nor by its closer. Which resumes to "zero traction" for that implementation proposal. Of course the second part of the suggestion, i.e., don't make a mess when converting, should always be understood, whether made explicit or not. Indirectly that was reflected in the closer's comment that bot conversions need separate approval (unapproved bots would be a sure path to messy conversions...). The closer's report did not provide for "local" consensuses outdoing the general deprecation, so I no longer support the first part of my implementation suggestion (it would be undermining what was already decided via the RfC – and I no longer think it a good idea either). --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 13:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

: After some thought, I suggest waiting to answer this question until we see how the issue is resolved/reworded at {{slink|Wikipedia:Citing sources#Parenthetical referencing}}. There is still some disagreement at that page about the wording. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 15:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

== What about quoting the source? ==

Often the text being referenced is just a one liner? What do you think about quoting the text in the citation as a method of referencing the source? [[User:Daniel.Cardenas|Daniel.Cardenas]] ([[User talk:Daniel.Cardenas|talk]]) 00:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Daniel.Cardenas}} I don't understand. Can you give an example? [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 03:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

::Thanks for asking. Here is an example:

:::https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waymo&diff=prev&oldid=977570594&diffmode=source

::I often quote the text in long web pages. Seems the best way, but I don't see the article suggesting that technique. [[User:Daniel.Cardenas|Daniel.Cardenas]] ([[User talk:Daniel.Cardenas|talk]]) 03:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

:::I see what you mean. This help page only shows various ways to cite page numbers of paginated material. That's why the citation information in the examples on this page is really minimal: just author, date, and title. It's not the purpose of this page to lay out all possible citation information. [[Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates]] shows pretty clearly (in my opinion) how to use the quote parameter in citation templates. (By the way, as that page shows, you don't have to put quote marks around the quote within the template, as you did in your example.) There's a pointer to that page at the end of the first paragraph of {{slink|Help:References and page numbers#Examples}}. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 04:01, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

::::Check [[Template:R#R-style shortened references]] and [[Template talk:R#Multiple links to nested citation?]] —[[User:Arthurfragoso|Arthurfragoso]] ([[User talk:Arthurfragoso|talk]]) 10:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

== ebooks ==

Since page numbers in ebooks can change depending on the font size that's set by a reader, how should ebooks be cited? [[User:Rootsmusic|rootsmusic]] ([[User talk:Rootsmusic|talk]]) 15:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

:This is a great question but I am unsure if this is the right place to ask it. I don't know where else to take it, but I don't think it's here. Let me know if you ever find out where to go to get an answer on that :/ <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 04:47, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:Following up on this. I think [[WP:PAGENUM]] offers the closest I've seen to guidance on this topic, while the conversation just above us here, under "What about quoting the source?", gives us a practical, real-world solution to citing to an ebook - include the referenced text in the citation (as long as it's, y'know, within reason). <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 18:05, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== PDF page numbers: real vs labeled ==

When citing a PDF and trying to include a page number, there is this common confusion because often the actual page number of the PDF itself is not the same as the page number label on a given page (due to, for example, early pages within a document not being numbered by the authors). So is the best practice to use the real PDF page numbers as they would be counted by a PDF viewer, or to use the labels placed on pages (if they are present) by the authors of the PDF? I believe the generally accepted standard is the latter (use the author's page numbers if they are there). True?

Fun fact: the PDF file format actually allows pages to be given explicit numbers (labels) by the authors that are also respected by the PDF viewer, but few people use this capability. https://opensource.adobe.com/dc-acrobat-sdk-docs/pdflsdk/apireference/PD_Layer/PDPageLabel.html [[User:Surlyhacker|Surlyhacker]] ([[User talk:Surlyhacker|talk]]) 06:48, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:My preference is to use labels on pages if they are present, and to use the position within the pagination of the pdf document only when pages are unlabeled. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:18, 28 May 2025 (UTC)