Help talk:References and page numbers: Difference between revisions

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== Standard Edition Pages? ==

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In the area of philosophy, and presumably several others (classics, etc.), we typically find it very useful to cite page numbers of standardized editions of an author's works as compiled in their original language, rather than specific English-language versions, and the former are usually listed along the margins of good scholarly editions. For instance, my edition of a work by Kant may describe his categorical imperative on p.73; yours might have it on p.7, or 213, or somewhere else. But if I cite it as "4:421" (volume 4, page 421, understood to be from the standard "Prussian Academy" edition of his works compiled many years ago), we can each look that up on our margins and quickly find that passage. Can we add a section specifying how and when this might be done?[[User:ScottForschler|ScottForschler]] ([[User talk:ScottForschler|talk]]) 17:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

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== p. vs. pp. ==

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I recently had another editor change my references which look like this:

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:{{tlx|cite|...|p{{=}}300–305}} and {{code|Johnson, 2008, p. 300–305}}

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to this:

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:{{tlx|cite|...|pp{{=}}300–305}} and {{code|Johnson, 2008, pp. 300–305}}

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Is there any guidance in [[WP:MOS]] or other Wikipedia-namespace pages on this point? I never use {{code|pp.}} and never thought twice about it. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 04:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

:Conventionally, "p." is short for "page" and "pp." is short for "pages". So if you want to cite a single page whose number is hyphenated, use "p. 300-305." If you want to cite multiple pages, use "pp. 300–305" (note also the en-dash in place of the hyphen). —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 04:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

::{{mention|Daask}} A real-world example of {{u|David Eppstein}}'s hyphenated-"''p.''" example would be the [[Olean Times Herald]] newspaper, which like many print dailies is divided into several letter-designated sections. So, a page number from the paper would be e.g. "p. A-1" or "p. D-4", whereas a range of pages might be "pp. A-2–A-4". (Or would that be "pp. A-2–4"? Come to think of it I don't really know the convention on that myself.) -- [[User:FeRD NYC|FeRD_NYC]] ([[User talk:FeRD NYC|talk]]) 07:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

:::{{reply to|David Eppstein}} I guess I'm familiar with the convention, but didn't realize it was used on Wikipedia. I figured page numbers could be parsed to present ranges as ''pp.'' if they really wanted to, but you remind me that parsing isn't always easy. [[User:Daask|Daask]] ([[User talk:Daask|talk]]) 07:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

== What about the studio album source ==

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:{{re|FeRDNYC}} Thanks for the appreciative "TED Talk" above and for raising these important issues here! I don't yet have an answer to your questions but wanted to acknowledge your gracious mention of my efforts on this page. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 13:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

: For clarity, the outline I posted in the RfC's lead section was not followed, neither by those participating in the RfC, nor by its closer. Which resumes to "zero traction" for that implementation proposal. Of course the second part of the suggestion, i.e., don't make a mess when converting, should always be understood, whether made explicit or not. Indirectly that was reflected in the closer's comment that bot conversions need separate approval (unapproved bots would be a sure path to messy conversions...). The closer's report did not provide for "local" consensuses outdoing the general deprecation, so I no longer support the first part of my implementation suggestion (it would be undermining what was already decided via the RfC – and I no longer think it a good idea either). --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 13:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

: After some thought, I suggest waiting to answer this question until we see how the issue is resolved/reworded at {{slink|Wikipedia:Citing sources#Parenthetical referencing}}. There is still some disagreement at that page about the wording. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 15:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

== What about quoting the source? ==

Often the text being referenced is just a one liner? What do you think about quoting the text in the citation as a method of referencing the source? [[User:Daniel.Cardenas|Daniel.Cardenas]] ([[User talk:Daniel.Cardenas|talk]]) 00:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

:{{re|Daniel.Cardenas}} I don't understand. Can you give an example? [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 03:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

::Thanks for asking. Here is an example:

:::https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Waymo&diff=prev&oldid=977570594&diffmode=source

::I often quote the text in long web pages. Seems the best way, but I don't see the article suggesting that technique. [[User:Daniel.Cardenas|Daniel.Cardenas]] ([[User talk:Daniel.Cardenas|talk]]) 03:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

:::I see what you mean. This help page only shows various ways to cite page numbers of paginated material. That's why the citation information in the examples on this page is really minimal: just author, date, and title. It's not the purpose of this page to lay out all possible citation information. [[Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates]] shows pretty clearly (in my opinion) how to use the quote parameter in citation templates. (By the way, as that page shows, you don't have to put quote marks around the quote within the template, as you did in your example.) There's a pointer to that page at the end of the first paragraph of {{slink|Help:References and page numbers#Examples}}. [[User:Biogeographist|Biogeographist]] ([[User talk:Biogeographist|talk]]) 04:01, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

::::Check [[Template:R#R-style shortened references]] and [[Template talk:R#Multiple links to nested citation?]] —[[User:Arthurfragoso|Arthurfragoso]] ([[User talk:Arthurfragoso|talk]]) 10:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

== ebooks ==

Since page numbers in ebooks can change depending on the font size that's set by a reader, how should ebooks be cited? [[User:Rootsmusic|rootsmusic]] ([[User talk:Rootsmusic|talk]]) 15:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

:This is a great question but I am unsure if this is the right place to ask it. I don't know where else to take it, but I don't think it's here. Let me know if you ever find out where to go to get an answer on that :/ <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 04:47, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

:Following up on this. I think [[WP:PAGENUM]] offers the closest I've seen to guidance on this topic, while the conversation just above us here, under "What about quoting the source?", gives us a practical, real-world solution to citing to an ebook - include the referenced text in the citation (as long as it's, y'know, within reason). <span style="text-shadow:#250 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;color:purple;font-style:bold;">[[User talk:Trs9k|ⓣⓡⓢ]][[Special:Contributions/Trs9k|⑨ⓚ]]</span> 18:05, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

== PDF page numbers: real vs labeled ==

When citing a PDF and trying to include a page number, there is this common confusion because often the actual page number of the PDF itself is not the same as the page number label on a given page (due to, for example, early pages within a document not being numbered by the authors). So is the best practice to use the real PDF page numbers as they would be counted by a PDF viewer, or to use the labels placed on pages (if they are present) by the authors of the PDF? I believe the generally accepted standard is the latter (use the author's page numbers if they are there). True?

Fun fact: the PDF file format actually allows pages to be given explicit numbers (labels) by the authors that are also respected by the PDF viewer, but few people use this capability. https://opensource.adobe.com/dc-acrobat-sdk-docs/pdflsdk/apireference/PD_Layer/PDPageLabel.html [[User:Surlyhacker|Surlyhacker]] ([[User talk:Surlyhacker|talk]]) 06:48, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

:My preference is to use labels on pages if they are present, and to use the position within the pagination of the pdf document only when pages are unlabeled. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:18, 28 May 2025 (UTC)