Talk:Objections to evolution: Difference between revisions

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::This is bullshit. The article is based on reliable sources. Your problem seems to be that the only sources you have been exposed to are far away from any reliability, so you believe in the false rumors spread by creationists instead of actual facts.

::If you have any concrete issues instead of vague accusations, you are welcome here. As is, your writings are not helpful. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

== Is it fair to include Plantinga on this page? ==

From what I've read, his 'evolutionary argument against naturalism' is not an objection to evolution, but an argument against metaphysical naturalism. I've never read anything that suggests he intended to disprove evolution, or even to critique it as unviable in the light of humans' reasoning capacities. [[User:Phil of rel|Phil of rel]] ([[User talk:Phil of rel|talk]]) 05:23, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

:Since he says, {{tq| a God would be expected to create beings with reliable reasoning faculties}} and people are very obviously very fallible, it sounds rather like an argument for atheism.

:I think he is mentioned because creationists use everything that can get, including non-creationist Fred Hoyle. Of course, none of it makes any sense, including Plantinga. I have no objection to deleting him. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 05:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

::It's fair to include him; as shown at [[Alvin Plantinga#View on naturalism and evolution]] he supported ID for a decade, eventually backing off a bit in 2010 – five years after ''[[Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District]]'' . . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 08:10, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

:::His "ID" belief is different from others. Technically speaking, all religious (particularly Abrahamic faiths) believe in an "Intelligent Designer", even theistic evolutionists like [[Theodosius Dobzhansky|Dobzhansky]], [[Ronald Fisher|Fisher]], [[Simon Conway Morris|Simon Morris]], [[Francis Collins]], [[Francisco J. Ayala|Francisco Ayala]], etc. The only thing common here is the name, but what each label means is different. The traditional "ID" belief is only considered problematic because of it's rejection of evolution and denial of natural causes. There's nothing wrong with believing that the "Intelligent Designer" designs through the natural process of evolution as a mechanic. One can take the designer as the first cause and natural causes as [[Secondary causation|secondary]]. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 18:55, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

:::Also, you're argument is an example of [[genetic fallacy]]. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 18:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

::::{{tq|different from others}} - All beliefs are different from all other beliefs; Plantinga is not special in that regard.

::::{{tq|Technically speaking}} - Wikipedia does not speak that, unless reliable sources already did it before. Antievolutionists have always tried to include non-antievolutionists into their groups; your rhetorics is not new.

::::{{tq|The traditional "ID" belief is only considered problematic because}} - Wrong. It is considered problematic because it uses bad reasoning.

::::{{tq|an example of genetic fallacy}} There is no trace of that fallacy here. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 20:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::I am not an anti-evolutionist. Check my en wiki profile.

:::::Also, I don't understand what you're trying to say in the second statement. As I said, even theistic evolutionists like Francis Collins counts as believers in intelligent design if we were to apply the basic definition and principle of the concept of "Intelligent Design". The technicality matters here because as Plantinga said, he does not object against evolution and does not subscribe to the anti-evolutionist beliefs of the more traditional ID advocates. The technicality matters here because he himself uses the term ID in that way. Additionally, his argument was never used against evolution because it only applies to philosophical naturalism. Also, no. Traditional ID advocates never tried to add non-anti evolutionists into their group. The Discovery Institute literally wrote a book and has an entire website dunking on theistic evolution.

:::::Also, you didn't even finish what I said. That's [[quoting out of context]]. The "because" here matters because "ID" isn't seen problematic because of it's mere name. It is seen problematic because it is traditionally used to object against evolution. Yes, it is problematic because of bad reasonings against evolution. But, Plantinga's argument is completely different.

:::::Also, there is, in fact, trace of that fallacy here. The individual was trying to justify adding Plantinga's anti-metaphysical naturalist argument because Plantinga was involved with the ID movement even though his argument doesn't even object against evolution. It counts as a genetic fallacy because an opinion (that his argument should be added) is being validated purely because of it's origins even though it's completely irrelevant.

:::::Literally, you're entire comment is an [[argument from ignorance]]. I'm not here for some sort of debate. Plantinga's argument, regardless of how strong or stupid it is, isn't against evolution. So thus, it is to be removed. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 08:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::{{tq|theistic evolutionists like Francis Collins counts as believers in intelligent design if we were to apply the basic definition}} We don't apply definitions here. See [[WP:OR]]. This is one of the most important Wikipedia rules. Another is [[WP:RS]]: If reliable sources say that Collins is ID, we write that he is ID. If no sources say that, we don't say it. End of story.

::::::{{tq|Traditional ID advocates never tried to add non-anti evolutionists into their group}} Creation scientists did. They made lists of creationists including Newton, Linnaeus and lots of other pre-Darwin scientists that never had a chance to take of position on evolution because they never heard of it. But all this is beside the point. Just don't gather random people and call them ID.

::::::I am ignoring your fallacy claims because it would take forever and they are beside the point of this page. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 12:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::::But, that's not OR. It would counts as OR if some drastic information was added which would require compelling evidences to be valid. (For example, if I gave a description of his childhood without adding any sources) There's nothing wrong with applying definitions and lack of it will create confusions (like how you initially claimed that Plantinga is an anti-evolutionist because of the label of ID even though that is wrong). Applying definitions are important especially when things are ambiguous and nuanced. For example, in the article [[The eclipse of Darwinism|eclipse of Darwinism]], there is a note clarifying the difference between 19th century "theistic evolution" and modern theistic evolution because these two things actually are different and refer to different things. That honestly makes Wikipedia itself un-trustable with it's information if words and labels were accepted as mere face value.

:::::::Also, I know that ID advocates try to put pre-Darwinian scientists into their lists, but that's different. My statement only applies to post-Darwinian era. They wouldn't tolerate anyone who accepts evolution or thinks that it is compatible. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 13:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

::::::::{{tq|But, that's not OR}} You are wrong. See the examples in [[Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis of published material]]: {{tq|The second paragraph is original research because it expresses a Wikipedia editor's opinion that, given the Harvard manual's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. Making the second paragraph policy-compliant would require a reliable source specifically commenting on the Smith and Jones dispute and making the same point about the Harvard manual and plagiarism. In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source concerning the topic before it can be published on Wikipedia.}}

::::::::This is directly applicable to what you are trying to do. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 11:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

::Except Hoyle's argument very specifically supports an intelligent designer who designed things without starting with [[abiogenesis]]. Since it is an argument against abiogenesis, it makes sense to put the argument here. On the other hand, Plantinga's argument is specifically against metaphysical naturalism. And it cannot be and has never been used against evolution in any way. So, it doesn't logically belong here. The article itself makes it clear that it is an argument against metaphysical naturalism and not evolution. So, it doesn't make sense to put it here at all. It belongs to the article [[Naturalism (philosophy)|naturalism]]. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 09:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

== Isolated systems ==