Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics/Notability and inclusion guidelines and Bay of Pigs Invasion: Difference between pages

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Is this about a wikipage for a particular webcomic or also about listing in [[List_of_web_comics|List of Webcomics]] ? --[[User:Dyss|Dyss]] 11:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
{{Infobox Military Conflict
|conflict=Bay of Pigs Invasion
|partof=[[Cold War]]
|image=
|caption
|date=[[April 15]] - [[April 19]], [[1961]]
|place=[[Bay of Pigs]], Southern [[Cuba]]
|casus=[[Cuban Revolution|The Cuban Revolution]]
|territory=
|result=Victory for the Republic of Cuba
|combatant1=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Cuba]]ns trained by [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|22px]] Soviet advisers
|combatant2=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]][[Cuban exile]]s trained by the [[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|22px]] [[United States]]
|commander1=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Fidel Castro]]<BR>[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[José Ramón Fernández]]<BR> [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px]] [[Image:Flag of Spain.svg|22px]] [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]]
|commander2=[[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|20px]] [[Grayston Lynch]]<BR> [[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Pepe San Roman]]<BR>[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Erneido Oliva]]
|strength1=51,000
|strength2=1,500
|casualties1=various estimates; over 1,600 dead (Triay p. 81) to 5,000 total estimated (Lynch)
|casualties2=115 dead<br>1,189 captured
}}
 
[[Image:Alerta.jpg|thumb|230px|Cuban poster warning before invasion showing a soldier armed with an [[RPD]] [[machine gun]].]]
----
The 1961 '''Bay of Pigs Invasion''' (also known in Cuba as the '''Playa Girón''' after the beach in the [[Bay of Pigs]] where the landing took place) was an unsuccessful [[United States]]-planned and funded attempted invasion by armed [[Cuban exile]]s in southwest [[Cuba]]. An attempt to overthrow the government of [[Fidel Castro]], this action accelerated a rapid deterioration in [[Cuban-American relations]], which was further worsened by the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] the following year. The name Bay of Pigs comes from Bahía de Cochinos, where in all probability "Cochino" refers to a species of [[Triggerfish]] (Balistes vetula) [http://www.invemar.org.co/redcostera1/invemar/docs/Vol33/BIMC_33_03_Claro.pdf], rather than pigs ([[Boar|Sus scrofa]]).
 
The pigs at the island
Are the comics on www.comics.com and www.ucomics.com nationally syndicated? Otherwise they'll have the same problems as [[KeenSpace]] comics. --[[User:Zandperl|zandperl]] 04:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Tensions between [[The United States]] and [[Cuba]] had increased steadily since the [[Cuban Revolution]] of 1959. The [[Dwight Eisenhower|Eisenhower]] and [[John F. Kennedy|Kennedy]] administrations had judged that Castro's policies, including the [[expropriation]] of American-owned assets on the island and Cuba's increasing ties with the [[Soviet Union]], could not be tolerated.
On March 17, 1960, the [[Dwight D. Eisenhower|Eisenhower]] administration agreed to a recommendation from the CIA to equip and drill Cuban exiles for action against the new Castro government.<ref name="thousand"> ''A Thousand days:John F Kennedy in the White House'' [[Arthur Schlesinger Jr]] 1965 </ref> Eisenhower stated that it was the policy of the U.S. government to aid anti-Castro guerilla forces. The [[Central Intelligence Agency|CIA]] began to recruit and train anti-Castro forces in the [[Sierra Madre de Chiapas|Sierra Madre]] mountains on the Pacific coast of [[Guatemala]].<ref name="thousand"/>
 
The CIA was initially confident that it was capable of overthrowing Castro, having experience assisting in the overthrow of other foreign governments such as the government of [[Iran]]ian prime minister [[Mohammed Mossadegh]] in 1953 and [[Guatemala]]n president [[Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán]] in 1954. [[Richard Mervin Bissell Jr.]], one of [[Allen Dulles]]'s three aides, was made director of "Operation Zapata."
:Hmmm. I think most are, but I know ucomics.com has that [http://www.comicssherpa.com/ Comics Sherpa] site now, which is supposed to feature non-syndicated comics. Comics that are syndicated probably shouldn't be listed at all, but those non-syndicated ones...
 
The original plan called for landing the [[Brigade 2506|exile brigade]] (Brigade 2506) in the vicinity of the old colonial city of [[Trinidad, Cuba]], in the central province of [[Sancti Spiritus]] approximately 400 km southeast of Havana at the foothills of the [[Escambray Mountains|Escambray mountains]]. The selection of the Trinidad site provided a number of options that the exile brigade could exploit during the invasion. The population of Trinidad was generally opposed to Castro and the rugged mountains outside the city provided an area into which the invasion force could retreat and establish a [[guerrilla warfare|guerrilla]] campaign were the landing to falter. Throughout 1960, the growing ranks of Brigade 2506 trained at locations throughout southern [[Florida]] and in [[Guatemala]] for the beach landing and possible mountain retreat.
:Well, a bit more digging shows that you can sort the comics on comicssherpa by [http://www.comicssherpa.com/site/home.html?list=ranking rating] (popularity), so maybe we could say only top 20 there as well? [[User:RadicalBender|R<small>ADICAL</small>B<small>ENDER</small>]][[User talk:RadicalBender|<small>&#9733;</small>]] 04:48, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
On [[February 17]] [[1961]], [[John F. Kennedy]], the new U.S. president, asked his advisors whether the toppling of Castro might be related to weapon shipments and if it was possible to claim the real targets were modern fighter aircraft and rockets which endangered America's security. At the time, Cuba's army possessed Soviet tanks, artillery and small arms, and its air force consisted of [[A-26 Invader|B-26]] medium bombers, [[Hawker Sea Fury|Hawker Sea Furies]] (a fast and effective, though obsolete, propeller driven [[fighter-bomber]]) and [[T-33]] jets left over from the Batista Air Force.<ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/baypigs-airforce.htm</ref>
No more thoughts on this? It'd be good to see some degree of finality, because there's a few I'd like to create.
 
As Kennedy's plans evolved, critical details were changed that were to hamper chances of a successful mission without direct U.S. help. These revised details included changing the landing area for Brigade 2506 to two points in [[Matanzas Province]], 202 km southeast of [[Havana]] on the eastern edge of the Zapata peninsula at the [[Bay of Pigs|Bahía de Cochinos]] (Bay of Pigs). The landings would now take place on the Girón and Playa de zapatos Larga beaches. This change effectively cut off contact with the rebels in the Escambray "[[War Against the Bandits]]". The Castro government also had been warned by senior [[KGB]] agents [[Osvaldo Sánchez Cabrera]] and [["Aragon",]] who respectively died violently before and after the invasion. <!--(Welch and Blight, p. 113)-->The U.S. government was aware that a high casualty rate was possible. {{Fact|date=February 2007}}.
How about extending the Top 20 from Keenspace to Top 40, too? It'd include another couple of comics that I think are worthy. [[User:Ambivalenthysteria|Ambivalenthysteria]] 03:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
==Soviet Advisers to Cuban government forces==
:Although I see a few comics that I read that would be included by such an extension, I don't think there's enough to justify it ''at this time''. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 03:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
 
A militia, artillery, and intelligence are necessary to field a regular army. Foreign advisors were brought from [[Eastern Bloc]] countries; the most senior of these were [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]], [[Enrique Lister]], and [[Alberto Bayo]].<ref>(Paz-Sanchez, 2001, pp 189-199) </ref> Ciutat de Miguel (Masonic name: Algazel; Russian name: Pavel Pablovich Stepanov; Cuban alias: Ángel Martínez Riosola, commonly referred to as Angelito) is said to have arrived the same day as [[La Coubre explosion]]; he was wounded in the foot during the [[War Against the Bandits]], the type of wound that is common to senior officers observing combat at the edge of effective rifle range. Date of wound is not given in references cited [http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Personajes/Militares/Militares1.htm]
::Is the "Where do people go on keenspace.com?" metric ANY good? It lists Sexy Losers as the #1 destination (12%), and SL left keenspace ages ago. [[User:Ralphmerridew|Ralphmerridew]] 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 
== Ranking Invasion==
On the morning of [[April 15]], [[1961]], three flights of [[Douglas Aircraft Company|Douglas]] [[A-26 Invader|B-26B Invader]] light bomber aircraft displaying Cuban Fuerza Aerea Revolucionaria (FAR - Revolutionary Air Force) markings bombed and strafed the Cuban airfields of [[San Antonio de Los Baños]], Antonio Maceo International Airport, and the airfield at Ciudad Libertad. Operation Puma, the code name given to the [[offensive counter air attack]]s against the [[Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces]], called for 48 hours of air strikes across the island to effectively eliminate the Cuban air force, ensuring Brigade 2506 complete air superiority over the island prior to the actual landing at the Bay of Pigs. This failed because the airstrikes were not continued, as was originally planned - limited by decisions at the highest level of US government. The second wave of airstrikes, designed to wipe out the remainder of Castro's airforce was stopped due to a communication breakdown rather than a lack of political will{{Fact|date=February 2007}}. [[Adlai Stevenson]], the US ambassador to the United Nations had been embarrassed by revelations that the first wave of airstrikes had been carried out by US planes despite his repeated denials that this was so. He contacted [[McGeorge Bundy]] who, unaware of the critical importance to the mission of the second wave, cancelled the airstrike despite Kennedy's earlier approval for it. Castro also had prior knowledge of the invasion and had moved the airplanes out of harm's way.
What if a comic's Alexa rank drops below the threshold? Do we remove it? I see three possibilities: Remove it; Don't remove it; Remove it only if it doesn't have an article.
[[Image:BayofPigs.jpg|350px|right|thumb|Map showing the ___location of the Bay of Pigs.]]
Of the Brigade 2506 aircraft that sortied on the morning of [[April 15]], one was tasked with establishing the CIA cover story for the invasion. The slightly modified two-seat B-26B used for this mission was piloted by [[Captain]] Mario Zuniga. Prior to departure, the engine cowling from one of the aircraft's two engines was removed by maintenance personnel, fired upon, then re-installed to give the appearance that the aircraft had taken ground fire at some point during its flight. Captain Zuniga departed from the exile base in [[Nicaragua]] on a solo, low-flying mission that would take him over the westernmost province of [[Pinar del Río|Pinar del Rio]], Cuba, and then northeast toward [[Key West, Florida]]. Once across the island, Captain Zuniga climbed steeply away from the waves of the [[Florida Straits]] to an altitude where he would be detected by US radar installations to the north of Cuba. At altitude and a safe distance north of the island, Captain Zuniga feathered the engine with the pre-installed bullet holes in the engine cowling, radioed a mayday call, and requested immediate permission to land at Boca Chica Naval Air Station a few kilometers northeast of [[Key West, Florida]]. This account is at apparent variance with Cuban government reports that [[Sea Fury]], [[B-26]] fighter bombers and [[T-33]] trainers flown by the few Cuban (notable Rafael del Pino, (Lagas, 1964)) and some left-wing Chilean and Nicaraguan pilots (Lagas, 1964; Somoza-Debayle and Jack Cox, 1980), loyal to Castro attacked the older slower B-26s flown by the invading force.<ref>http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticGiron1-e.html</ref>
 
By the time of Captain Zuniga's announcement to the world mid-morning on the 15th, all but one of the Brigade's Douglas bombers were back over the Caribbean on the three and a half hour return leg to their base in Nicaragua to re-arm and refuel. Upon landing, however, the flight crews were met with a cable from Washington ordering the indefinite stand-down of all further combat operations over Cuba.
Secondly, what if a comic has no three-month traffic average? (not considering sites that have changed domains) Are they simply considered too new for listing?
-- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 03:21, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
 
On [[April 17]], four 2,400-ton chartered transports (named the ''Houston'', ''Río Escondido'', ''Caribe'', and ''Atlántico'') transported 1,511 Cuban exiles to the Bay of Pigs on the Southern coast of Cuba. They were accompanied by two CIA-owned infantry landing crafts (LCI's), called the ''Blagar'' and ''Barbara J'', containing supplies, ordnance, and equipment. The small army hoped to find support from the local population, intending to cross the island to [[Havana]]. The CIA assumed that the invasion would spark a popular uprising against Castro. However, the
: We don't remove articles on anything else once they slip from the headlines. Why would we do this for webcomics? If they were relevant once, they have an article. With sites that are new, I think we should stay away, unless they've become rather notable in that time. [[User:Ambivalenthysteria|Ambivalenthysteria]] 03:40, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Escambray rebels had been contained by Cuban militia directed by [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]] (see Soviet Advisers to Cuban government forces above). By the time the Invasion began, Castro had already executed some who were suspected of colluding with the American campaign (notably two former "Comandantes" Humberto Sorí Marin and [[William Alexander Morgan]]<ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/morgan/Morgan-03-13-6]</ref><ref>http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html</ref> Others executed included Alberto Tapia Ruano, a catholic youth leader. April was a bloody month for the resistance. Several hundreds of thousands were imprisoned before, during and after the invasion (Priestland, 2003).
 
After landing, it soon became evident that the exiles were not going to receive effective support at the site of the invasion and were likely to lose. Reports from both sides describe tank battles (see much detail in printed references section below) involving heavy USSR equipment.<ref name="SPlister.htm">http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPlister.htm</ref> Kennedy decided against giving the faltering invasion US air support (though four US pilots were killed in Cuba during the invasion) because of his opposition to overt intervention. Kennedy also canceled several sorties of bombings (only two took place) on the grounded Cuban Airforce, which might have crippled the Cuban Airforce and given air superiority to the invaders. [[U.S. Marines]] were not sent in.
:: I didn't think we would remove them, but since the proposed policy doesn't say, I felt it was a possible interpretation. But what about the current comic list? There's a number of comics on there that aren't notable, were never notable, and should be removed.
 
==Air action==
:: As far as new comics, I fully agree. My comment was worded with the intention of getting responses, rather than presenting my views. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 04:51, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)
 
Aviation is commonly considered the deciding factor during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. The first airplane of the Cuban Armed forces was obtained in 1913; Cuban pilots, such as Francisco Terry Sánchez and Santiago Campuzano fought combat missions as early as WW I [http://www.nocastro.com/documents/aviacion/aviacion1.htm]. The 1931 Gibara landing against Machado was defeated in great part by Cuban Aviation [http://www.nocastro.com/documents/aviacion/aviacion2.htm]. However, by the end of January 1959 most Cuban pilots and support technicians from the Batista era were in jail [http://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/80.81sp/Cuba4677.htm] or in exile.
:::You're right, but that's a matter of VFD. Once we can get agreement on a policy of handling them, I guess then we can go clean up the list. [[User:Ambivalenthysteria|Ambivalenthysteria]] 06:03, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
During the Bay of Pigs invasion, the first Cuban exile attack with B-26 left Cuban forces with "two [[B-26]]s, two [[Sea Fury|Sea Furies]], and two [[T-33]]As at San Antonio de los Baños Airbase, and only one Sea Fury at the [[Antonio Maceo Airport]]" and two of the attacking bombers were damaged [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm] April 17 Cuban exile pilots and copilots/navigators: Matias Farias, Eddy Gonzalez, Osvaldo Piedra, Jose Fernandez, Raul Vianello, Jose, A. Crespo, Lorenzo Perez Lorenzo, Crispin Garcia, and Juan Mata Gonzalez are killed. April 19 US aviators Riley Shamburger, Wade Gray, Thomas W. Ray and Leo Baker, replacing exhausted Cuban exile fliers, die in action.
A problem with using Alexa is that it's often regarded as spyware, and is detected by spyware removal software such as Spybot and Adaware.
[[User:Tim J Tylor|Tim J Tylor]] 22:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 
Cuban pilots Alvaro Galo and Willy Figueroa were jailed for cowardice, for not flying B-26; Captain Evans was accused of poisoning crews and also jailed.
== Proposed non-notability template ==
I've created a <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:minor webcomic|minor webcomic]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template for articles about webcomics that do not qualify for inclusion by the current guidelines. It's intended to be used in the same way as <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:notable|notable]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>, but explicitly mentions and links to the web comics policy. Does this seem useful? [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 20:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
:Shouldn't these go on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion|VFD]] if they don't qualify for inclusion? [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 21:46, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
::I suppose so. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 00:10, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 
Cuban Air Force pilots included Carlos Ulloa Rauz who was Nicaraguan; Jaques Lagas who flew a B-26 and survived is from Chile' Alfredo Noa died in battle in a plane piloted by Luis A. Silva Tablada also killed. Rafael del Pino. de Varens died in a B-26 accident in Camaguey. Laga lists dead Castro fliers as: Noa, Silva, Ulloa, Martin Torres, Reinaldo Gonzalez Calainada, and Orestes Acosta. On page 81 Lagas mentions Enrique Carrera Rola and Gustavo Borzac.
==Wikiproject: Webcomics==
According to [[Wikipedia: Wikiproject Webcomics]], I wrote [[Planet Earth (and other tourist traps)]]. Please let me know if this is unacceptable. -[[User:Branddobbe|Branddobbe]] 05:07, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
 
On page 82 Lagas mentions 16 exile planes in first attack, presumable B-26 bombers. Kraus mentions eight B-26 piloted by Cuban exiles [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm]. Lagas mentions Cuban pilot Alberto Fernandez. Juan Suarez Plaza Ernesto Carrera is mentioned as flying a Seafury, and another Nicaraguan; Seafuries were also flown by Cuban pilots including Douglas Rood and Sanchez de Mola. Lagas states he was the only B-26 pilot left on the 19th of April. By April 21 ten of twelve exile B-26B had been destroyed [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm]. Eight Cuban pilots survived, only one from the B-26.
==Inclusion==
 
==Land action==
Eric Burns, at www.websnark.com, has proposed a different baseline inclusion guideline for webcomics that I suspect is more fair and still is going to avoid vanity pages. His proposal is that every comic with an archive of 100 strips or more should be included.
 
In the beginning the [[militia]] on the beach surrendered, and the invaders moved to control the [[causeway]]s. There the fighting became intense, and Cuban forces casualities were very high, both as a result of fire power from the invading ground forces and the [[strafing]] [[B-26]]. However, once their air-support was eliminated and after expending all ammunition the invaders were forced back to the beach (summarized from Lynch, Grayston L. 2000, and others in bibliography below). The land action was very bloody. Carlos Franqui wrote:<ref>Data sources include: de Paz-Sánchez, 2001; Lynch, 2000 D; Johnson, 1964; Franqui, 1984; Vivés, 1984. Complete citations in Bibliography section.</ref>
Yes, this is going to lead to a lot more webcomics being included, but I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing. One of the things Wikipedia is good for is providing encyclopedic coverage of smaller scale events and things that wouldn't make it in a normal encyclopedia because of space concerns.
 
{{Quotation| “We lost a lot of men. This frontal attack of men against machines (the enemy tanks) had nothing to do with guerrilla war; in fact it was a Russian tactic, probably the idea of the two Soviet generals, both of Spanish origin (they fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War and fled to the Soviet Union to later fight in World War II. One of them was a veteran, a fox (sic) named Ciutah. He (Ciutah) was sent by the Red Army and the Party as an advisor and was the father of the new Cuban army. He was the only person who could have taken charge of the Girón campaign. The other Hispano-Russian general was an expert in antiguerrilla war who ran the Escambray cleanup. But the real factor in our favor at Girón was the militias: Almejeira’s column embarked on a suicide mission, they were massacred but they reached the beach.”}}
Or, to put it another way, nobody outside of Wikipedia is going to catalog these webcomics, and, unlike a lot of things, I think a strong accounting of webcomics is something that is very helpful (As I think Websnark puts persuasively at [http://www.websnark.com/archives/2004/11/a_modest_webcom.html].
 
==Casualties==
Even if something more restrictive than a 100 strip archive is requested, I think these guidelines are needlesly fierce. At most 20 Keenspace comics? A 200,000 minimum Alexis Rank? Eek. I know we have problems with the profligation of vanity webcomic pages, but this swings too far in the other direction. How about we just deal with webcomics on a case by case basis on VfD like we do high schools and other such things? [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 06:58, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
By the time fighting ended on [[April 21]], 68 exiles were dead and the rest were captured. Estimates of Cuban forces killed vary with the source, but were generally far higher.
 
The 1,209 captured exiles were quickly put on trial. A few were executed and the rest sentenced to thirty years in prison for [[treason]]. After 20 months of negotiation with the United States, Cuba released the exiles in exchange for $53 million in food and medicine.
:I strongly agree with Snowspinner. (As you could probably guess I might). The idea that notability in what is essentially an artistic medium is wholly dependent upon popularity is, quite honestly, flawed. It took many years -- long after her death -- for Elizabeth Bishop to become well known, popular and anthologized as a poet, but as she was ''very'' popular among ''other poets'' her significance was considerable, and the aesthetic and critical importance of her poetry was certain. I think any system that relies upon the tyranny of popularity for inclusion in encyclopedic works will, ultimately, produce only articles of limited need. It is, in fact, the webcomics that develop depth, backstory and staying power but which ''don't'' have overwhelming popularity that need a centralized resource for webcomics fans to go to and learn more about them. Wikipedia is uniquely capable of providing a tremendous benefit to the webcomics consumer, but only if the articles are there. Quite honestly, it's rare someone needs to read up on Penny Arcade. But American Elf -- a strip produced by alternative artist James Kolchalka, a centerpiece of Joey Manley's Modern Tales family of comic strips, one of the most significant journal strips, one of the most successful (monetarily) pay-for strips and one of the most significant strips artistically (according to critics and significant artists in the webcomics community) doesn't fit the above guidelines for inclusion. One can only conclude that the guidelines do not meet the real need for encyclopedic information on the subject.--[[User:Eric Burns|Eric Burns]] 07:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 
It is generally assumed by some that during the Bay of Pigs Invasion Cuba's losses were high. Triay (2001 p. 110) mentions 4,000 casualties; Lynch (p. 148) 50X or about 5,000. Other sources indicate over 2,200 casualties. Unofficial reports list that seven Cuban army infantry battalions suffered significant losses during the fighting.
:I disagree with this. The current webcomics policy is ''already'' much more lax than the general Wikipedia policy regarding websites. Wikipedia is not a web guide. The policy already accounts for comics that are notable for reasons other than their popularity. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 
In one air attack alone, Cuban forces suffered an estimated 1,800 casualties when a mixture of army troops, militia, and civilians were caught on an open causeway riding in civilian buses towards the battle scene in which several buses were hit by [[napalm]].<ref>http://www.serendipity.li/cia/bay-of-pigs.htm</ref><ref>http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/EJR.htm</ref><ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/articles/bayofpigs.htm</ref>
===Inclusion Guidelines Counterproposal===
 
The government initially reported their army losses as 87 dead with many more wounded. The number of those killed in action in Cuba's army during the battle eventually ran to 140, and then finally to 161. Thus in the most accepted calculations, a total of around 2,000 (perhaps as many as 5,000, see above) Cuban militia fighting for the Republic of Cuba may have been killed, wounded or missing in action.
Given my opinion that the guidelines as listed do not meet the needs of separating out the significant from the insignificant, instead rewarding simple popularity and denying smaller but sometimes more experimental or critically acclaimed works, it behooves me to produce a counterproposal to hopefully stimulate discussion.
 
The total casualties for the brigade were 104 members killed, and a few hundred more were wounded. Of those killed, ten died trying to escape Cuba in a boat (Celia), nine asphyxiated in a sealed truck on the way to Havana,<ref>http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/15933592.htm</ref> five were executed after the invasion, five were executed after being captured infiltrating Cuba, five died in training at their base and two died in a Cuban prison camp.
This counterproposal takes the assumption that Wikipedia's articles, at their core, are a resource for web consumers -- a ready and central ___location for information on a broad variety of subjects. It is also the assumption of this counterproposal that a broad depth of webcomics, be they noteworthy due to popularity or noteworthy due to critical acclaim and aesthetic consideration, being represented in Wikipedia is of value to both Wikipedia and the webcomics community.
 
In 1979 the body of Alabama National Guard Captain {Pilot} Thomas Willard Ray who was executed after capture was returned
The following counterproposal is designed to produce guidelines based upon three basic criteria: commitment to the artistic work in time, commitment to the artistic work in effort, and a demonstrated fanbase. These would be determined as follows:
to his family from Cuba; the CIA eventually ("in the late 90's") admitted to his links to the agency and awarded him their highest award the [[Intelligence Star]].<ref>Thomas, Eric 2007 (accessed 2-22-07) Local Man Forever Tied To Cuban Leader Father Frozen, Displayed By Fidel Castro KGO ABC7/KGO-TV/DT. ABC San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=assignment_7&id=5056129</ref>
 
==Release of most captive prisoners==
#A webcomic must be on the web and actively producing strips for a minimum of 33 weeks before being considered for Wikipedia. During this time, any hiatus periods lasting more than 1 week will not be considered "active" and will not count to this goal. "Guest Weeks," fan art and the like would be considered hiatus periods for these purposes.
In May 1961 Castro proposed an exchange of the surviving members of the assault for five hundred bulldozers. The trade soon rose to $28 million [[United States dollars]].<ref name="thousand"/> Negotiations were non-productive until after the [[Cuban missile crisis]]. On December 21, 1962 Castro and James B. Donovan, a U.S. lawyer signed an agreement to exchange the 1,113 prisoners for $53 million U.S. dollars in food and medicine, the money being raised by private donations.<ref>http://onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr60/fcuba1961.htm</ref> On December 29, 1962 Kennedy met with the returning brigade at [[Palm Beach]], [[Florida]].<ref name="thousand"/>
##Thirty-three weeks is the better part of a year. Many if not most vanity webcomics are abandoned within 12-15 weeks. By demonstrating the ability to produce over this period of time, a webcartoonist shows commitment and almost certainly artistic and aesthetic growth.
##Thirty-three weeks is the approximate amount of time a typical Monday-Wednesday-Friday strip would need to reach 100 strips if the artist never missed an update.
##Guest Strips and Fan Art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do not show commitment on the part of the webcartoonist, and so must be considered "inactive time" if the webcartoonist him or herself does not produce and post a strip of their own during the one-week period.
#A webcomic must have at least 100 strips in its archive before being considered for Wikipedia. These strips must all be produced by the webcartoonist or webcartoonist team (though strips where the primary creator is actually the writer, recruiting several artists to produce the strips they write, would be considered "produced by the webcartoonist for the purposes of inclusion. Guest strips and fan art -- produced wholly by others -- would not.)
##100 strips represents a significant amount of effort on the part of the webcartoonist, showing commitment that most vanity strips simply do not have.
##100 strips is considered a milestone by most webcomic creators, and has some significance in the webcomic community.
##Guest strips and fan art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do represent neither the artistic growth of nor a commitment by the webcartoonist, and therefore would not be considered as part of the 100 strips for purposes of inclusion.
#Someone other than the webcartoonist would need to actually write and develop the article in question.
##It is difficult for a webcomic's primary creator to adopt the necessary distance from his or her own work to write an encyclopedic article.
##The voluntary development of the Wikipedia article by someone other than the webcartoonist demonstrates fan support of the strip, and represents notability among a discrete population.
 
==Aftermath, reactions and re-evaluations==
The ultimate goal of Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion are to separate out those strips without note, commitment or worth, while highlighting those strips that possess note, commitment and worth. With the many thousands of strips available on the web, it is a losing proposition for any project of any kind to try and include them all. However, as the medium of webcomics and online sequential art grows and flourishes, it becomes increasingly important that there be repositories of factual and critical information on them, not bound to popularity but instead to significance. - Eric Burns
[[Image:JFK.jpg|thumb|right|250px|[[Robert F. Kennedy]]'s Statement on Cuba and Neutrality Laws, April 20, 1961]]
The failed Bay of Pigs invasion severely embarrassed the Kennedy administration, and made Castro wary of future US intervention in Cuba. As a result of the failure, [[Director of Central Intelligence|CIA director]] [[Allen Dulles]], [[Deputy Director of Central Intelligence|deputy CIA director]] [[Charles Cabell]], and Deputy Director of Operations [[Richard Mervin Bissell Jr.|Richard Bissell]] were all forced to resign. All three were held responsible for the planning of the operation at the CIA. Responsibility of the Kennedy Administration and the US State Department for modifications of the plans were not apparent until later.
 
The Kennedy administration continued covert operations against Castro, later launching [[the Cuban Project]] to "help Cuba overthrow the Communist regime". Tensions would again peak in the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] of 1962.
:I would chime in here that webcomics creators already ought not write their own articles, as per the vanity pages policy Wikipedia already has. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 07:51, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)
 
The CIA wrote a detailed internal report that laid blame for the failure squarely on internal incompetence. A number of grave errors by the CIA and other American analysts contributed to the debacle:
::That seems fair enough. On the other hand, maybe creators should not be disqualified from correcting factual errors in articles about their strips... [[User:Lee M|Lee M]] 02:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 
*The administration believed that the troops could retreat to the mountains to lead a guerrilla war if they lost in open battle. The mountains were too far to reach on foot, and the troops were deployed in swamp land, where they were easily surrounded.
:::Allow webcomic creators to respond to errors in the discussion pages; if somebody agrees, that person may make the correction. [[User:Ralphmerridew|Ralphmerridew]] 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
*They believed that the involvement of the US in the incident could be denied.
*They believed that Cubans would be grateful to be liberated from Fidel Castro and would quickly join the battle. This support failed to materialize; many hundreds of thousands of others were arrested, and some executed, prior to the landings. (see also Priestland 2003; Lynch, 2000).
 
The CIA's near certainty that the Cuban people would rise up and join them was based on the agency's extremely weak presence on the ground in Cuba. Castro's counterintelligence, trained by Soviet Bloc specialists including [[Enrique Lister]],<ref name="SPlister.htm"/> had infiltrated most resistance groups. Because of this, almost all the information that came from exiles and defectors was "contaminated." CIA operative [[E. Howard Hunt]] had interviewed Cubans in Havana prior to the invasion; in a future interview with [[CNN]], he said, "...all I could find was a lot of enthusiasm for Fidel Castro."<ref>http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/18/interviews/hunt/</ref> [[Grayston Lynch]] among others, also points to Castro's rounding up of hundreds of thousands of anti-Castro and potentially anti-Castro Cubans across the island prior and during the invasion (e.g. Priestland, 2003) to destroying any chances for a general uprising against the Castro regime. Thus the million voices that had cried "Cuba si, comunismo NO!" on November 28 1959,[http://aguadadepasajeros.bravepages.com/cubahistoria/congreso_catolico_cuba_1959.htm] were gone or silent.
:::Since when are creators disallowed from correcting errors in articles on their products? I think somebody is misinterpreting the policy against vanity pages. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 
Many military leaders almost certainly expected the invasion to fail but thought that Kennedy would send in [[United States Marine Corps|Marines]] to save the exiles. Kennedy, however, did not want a full scale war and abandoned the exiles.
:A lot of webcomics are in large comic-book page format, one page probably taking the effort of three or more newspaper-format strips. Maybe you should have different archive-minimum numbers for different formats. [[User:Tim J Tylor|Tim J Tylor]] 22:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 
An [[April 29]] [[2000]] ''[[Washington Post]]'' article, "Soviets Knew Date of Cuba Attack", reported that the CIA had information indicating that the [[Soviet Union]] knew the invasion was going to take place and did not inform Kennedy. [[Radio Moscow]] actually broadcast an English-language newscast on [[April 13]], [[1961]] predicting the invasion "in a plot hatched by the CIA" using paid "criminals" within a week. The invasion took place four days later. According to British minister [[David Ormsby-Gore]], British intelligence estimates, which had been made available to the CIA, indicated that the Cuban people were predominantly behind Castro and that there was no likelihood of mass defections or insurrections following the invasion.<ref name="thousand"/> More recent analysis suggest that, probably because of the Castro government's almost complete blackout of actions outside of Havana, the sources such as those used in the Ormsby-Gore intelligence estimate were not aware of the following related material: On April 14, 1961, the guerrillas of Agapito Rivera fought Cuban government forces near Las Cruces, Montembo, Las Villas, several government forces were killed and others wounded.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 83</ref> On April 16, Merardo and Jose Leon plus 14 others staged armed rising at Las Delicias Estate in Las Villas, only four survived<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 85</ref> Leonel Martinez and 12 others took to the country side (ibid). On the 17th of April 1961 Osvaldo Ramírez then chief of the rural resistance to Castro (see [[War Against the Bandits]]) was captured in Aromas de Velázquez and immediately executed. [http://www.nuevoaccion.com/] The ruthlessness with which this resistance was suppressed is well described in Franqui.<ref>Franqui 1984, pp. 111-115 </ref> On April 3, 1961, a bomb attack on militia barracks in Bayamo killed four militia and eight more are wounded; on April 6, the Hershey Sugar factory in Matanzas is destroyed by sabotage; on April 18, Directorio guerrilla Marcelino Magaňaz died in action in Sierra Maestra.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 79-89</ref> On April 19 at least seven Cubans plus two US citizens Angus K. McNair and Howard F. Anderson are executed in Pinar del Rio Province.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 90</ref>. However, the general Cuban population was not well informed, except for CIA funded Radio Swan [http://www.firmaspress.com/viaje-al-corazon-de-cuba.pdf] [[Pirate radio in Central America and Caribbean Sea]], since May of 1960 almost all means of public communication were in the government’s hands.<ref>. NYT May 26, 1960 p. 5; [http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Cuba83eng/chap.5.htm]</ref>
:I think 33 weeks is a little weak. I'd like to see a minimum of a year's worth of consistent activity, just so we know that the creator is serious enough to stick it out through everything that goes on in a year, and isn't just whittling away a lazy semester and a boring summer. I just can't believe that, in general, a comic that can't even stick around for a year could possibly be that signifigant. If there are exceptions to this, then they should be handled as exceptions (meaning just create the article and see if it survives a VfD). - [[User:Lifefeed|Lifefeed]] 20:06, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
 
The invasion is often criticized as making Castro even more popular, adding nationalistic sentiments to the support for his economic policies. Following the initial B-26 bombings, he declared the revolution "[[Marxism-Leninism|Marxist-Leninist]]". After the invasion, he pursued closer relations with the Soviet Union, partly for protection, which helped pave the way for the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] a year and a half later.
::I have to agree. 100 and 33 are, IMO, very small numbers to use. Moreover, even a comic that lasted several times as long wouldn't merit a Wikipedia article if nobody read it. The mere fact that somebody's done something for a long time doesn't make it significant, and that's really all these guidelines measure. Popularity and/or influence on other work are the important criteria, I think. The latter is unfortunately difficult to measure. (Note that I'm not saying that popularity makes a comic "good", whatever good is, but it does make it notable enough for an encyclopedia article.) &mdash;[[User:Triskaideka|Triskaideka]] 15:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 
There are still yearly nation-wide drills in Cuba during the 'Dia de la Defensa' (defense day) to prepare the entire population for an invasion.
I think a year of consistent activity would be acceptable. Practically every halfhearted hobbyist effort makes it to 33 weeks and 100 strips. Personally, I'd prefer ''two'' years as a baseline&mdash;if something is to be included based on longevity, it should demonstrate longevity that is out of the ordinary (the ordinary being pretty weak in this case).
 
An appendix to the Enrique Ros book pp. 287-298 gives the names of Bay of Pigs veterans who became officers in the US Army in Vietnam, these names include 6 Colonels, 19 Lt Colonels, 9 Majors, and 29 Captains. As of March 2007, the Communist Party is now the only political party in Cuba, and about 50% of the Brigade have passed on<ref>. Iuspa-Abbott. Paola, 2007 (accessed 3-27-07) Palm Beach County Bay of Pigs veterans remember invasion of Cuba. South Florida Sun-Sentinel Posted March 26 2007 [http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-pbrigademar26,0,6683790.story?coll=sfla-news-cuba]</ref>
And I agree with Triskaideka that the most important criterion in notability is ''whether people have taken note''. In general I prefer the earlier ranking-based guidelines to Eric Burns' how-long-they've-been-plugging-away-based guidelines. We should also make it clear, however, that these guidelines are only a fallback in case the comic has no other legitimate claims to notability (being covered in national or international news, being particularly influential, etc.) Webcomics are not an exception to the general guidelines of Wikipedia.
 
==Notes==
We shouldn't be bending over backwards to let every webcomic have an article just because they exist and we like the medium. Besides, if these inclusion guidelines are too lax, nobody on VfD will take them seriously, which would defeat the whole point. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 04:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
<div class="references-small">
<references/>
</div>
 
==Bibliography==
:I agree that, if longevity is to be ''sufficient'' for inclusion (that is, for a comic that is not sufficiently popular, particularly one that has ended, such as [[1/0]] or [[Unicorn Jelly]]), two years is a nice solid baseline to use. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 08:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
*Anderson, Jon L. 1998 Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life. Grove/Atlantic ISBN 0-8021-3558-7
*Corzo, Pedro 2003 Cuba Cronología de la lucha contra el totalitarismo. Ediciones Memorias, Miami. ISBN 1890829242
*Franqui, Carlos 1984 (foreword by G. Cabrera Infante and translated by Alfred MacAdam from Spanish 1981 version) Family portrait with Fidel. 1985 edition Random House First Vintage Books, New York. ISBN 0394726200 pp. 111-128
*Lynch, Grayston L. 2000 Decision for Disaster: Betrayal at the Bay of Pigs. Potomac Books Dulles Virginia ISBN 1-57488-237-6
*Hunt, E. Howard 1973 Give us this day. Arlington House, New Rochelle, N.Y. ISBN-10 0870002287 ISBN-13: 978-0870002281
*Johnson, Haynes 1964 The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders' Story of Brigade 2506. W. W. Norton & Co Inc. New York. 1974 edition ISBN 0-393-04263-4
*Lagas, Jacques 1964 Memorias de un capitán rebelde. Editorial del Pácifico. Santiago, Chile.
*Lazo, Mario 1968, 1970 Dagger in the heart: American policy failures in Cuba. Twin Circle. New York. I968 edition Library of Congress number 6831632, 1970 edition, ASIN B0007DPNJS
*Grayston L. Lynch (see Lynch, Grayston L.)
*de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644
*Priestland, Jane (editor) 2003 British Archives on Cuba: Cuba under Castro 1959-1962. Archival Publications International Limited, 2003, London ISBN 1-903008-20-4
*[[Jean Edward Smith]], "Bay of Pigs: The Unanswered Questions," ''The Nation'', (Apr. 13, 1964), p. 360-363.
*Somoza-Debayle, Anastasio and Jack Cox 1980 Nicaragua Betrayed Western Islands Publishers, pp. 169-180 ISBN 088279235
*Ros, Enrique 1994 (1998) Giron la verdadera historia. Ediciones Universales (Colección Cuba y sus jueces) third edition Miami ISBN 0-89729-738-5
*Thomas, Hugh 1998 Cuba or The Pursuit of Freedom. Da Capo Press, New York Updated Ed. ISBN 0-306-80827-7
*Triay, Victor 2001 Andres Bay of Pigs. University Press of Florida, Gainesville ISBN 0-8130-2090-5
*Welch, David A and James G Blight (editors) 1998 Intelligence and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Frank Cass Publishers, London and Portland Oregon ISBN 0-7146-4883-3 ISBN 0-7146-4435-8
*Vivés, Juan (Pseudonym, of a former veteran and Castro Intelligence Official; Translated to Spanish from 1981 Les Maîtres de Cuba. Opera Mundi, Paris by Zoraida Valcarcel) 1982 Los Amos de Cuba. EMCÉ Editores, Buenos Aires. ISBN 9500400758
*Wyden, Peter 1979 Bay of Pigs Simon. and Schuster New York ISBN 0-671-24006-40
 
==See also==
I suggest going even further. Wikipedia is not a web comics directory. Limiting the listing to 10-20 of the most popular web comics should be sufficient. [[User:DiceDiceBaby|DiceDiceBaby]] 30 June 2005 17:34 (UTC)
{{portalpar|Cuba|Flag of Cuba.svg}}
:I disagree completely. This would lead to a mass deletion of useful content. Nowhere does it say that Wikipedia should not cover notable web sites. The web comic coverage would apper to be far from the definition of [[directory]] on [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|What Wikipedia is not]]. [[Keenspot]] alone has significantly more than 20 comics, all of them popular, and I can name a dozen notable non-members off the top of my head. Coverage of subjects such as this is one of the advantages Wikipedia has over its fellow encyclopedias. Frankly, I'd appreciate a few more reasons supporting Dice's argument because this one sounds like "I say Wikipedia doesn't work like this, so let's nuke stuff". Sry if I came across as cross. <strike>#¤£& deletionists...</strike> --[[User:Kizor|Kizor]] 08:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
*[[Cuba-United States relations]]
*[[Guantánamo Bay (Cuba)]]
*[[Swan Islands, Honduras|Swan Islands]]
*''[[Red Zone Cuba]]'' ([[1966]])
 
==External links==
== Disambiguation standards ==
*[http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0417.html#article NY Times headline, April 18, 1961, ''Anti-Castro Units Land in Cuba; Report Fighting at Beachhead; Rusk Says U.S. Won't Intervene'']
I just wrote a little question over on [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics]], about the fact that I noticed that among disambiguation add-ons to the names of web comics with common names, like ''Avalon'', or ''Copper'', or ''Freefall'', there was no kind of standard behavior: It's [[Avalon (web comic)]] but [[Copper (comic)]] and [[Freefall (webcomic)]]. Should this matter? Heck, between this page and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics]], we can't even agree on whether it's one word or two (hell, I'm almost certainly inconsistent in ''my'' usage, as well). Any ideas, or does it just not matter one way or the other? --[[User:Ray Radlein|Ray Radlein]] 05:20, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
*[http://www.parascope.com/articles/1296/bayofpigs.htm Detail Information on the Bay of Pigs Invasion] &mdash; Includes maps of the Invasion and Documents.
*[http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs.htm History of Cuba] &mdash; Bay of Pigs Invasion.
*[http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html National Security Archive chronology]
*[http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticGiron1-e.html The Sea Fury aircraft at Bay of Pigs]
*[http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-BayPigsI.html Reference on Bay of Pigs Invasion at Encylopedia.com]
*[http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-150695778.html?refid=hbw_rd Bay of Pigs betrayal the betrayal of the Cuban people by the CIA, State Department, and staff members of the New York Times ranks as one of America's darkest foreign-policy moments]
{{Cuba-United States relations}}
{{Cold War}}
 
<!-- by invading forces -->
== Alexa ==
 
[[Category:1961]]
I'm sorry if this seems obvious to you, but I'm not very familiar with Alexa. Which ranking is the relevant one for our purposes? It must be "reach," I guess, because "Views" is always very very low, even for very popular sites. --[[User:Iustinus|Iustinus]] 29 June 2005 19:15 (UTC)
[[Category:Battles involving the United States]]
[[Category:Battles involving Cuba]]
[[Category:CIA operations]]
[[Category:Cuban-American relations]]
[[Category:Cuban Revolution]]
[[Category:History of the United States (1945–1964)]]
[[Category:Invasions]]
[[Category:John F. Kennedy]]
[[Category:Fidel Castro]]
 
[[ca:Invasió de Bahía de Cochinos]]
:Traffic Rank. A lower number means higher traffic (a rank of 1 is the most popular site among Alexa users). [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 29 June 2005 21:24 (UTC)
[[da:Invasionen i Svinebugten]]
 
[[de:Invasion in der Schweinebucht]]
::The project page says "''Alexa will be used to determine traffic for any web comic with its own ___domain name. If the web comic has a 3-month average traffic above 200,000, it can be considered to be an entry that could be allowed in Wikipedia.''" Surely this does not refer to "Traffic Rank"? Unless "above" actually means "below" I suppose (how to phrase such a ranking could be confusing). --[[User:Iustinus|Iustinus]] 30 June 2005 05:56 (UTC)
[[es:Invasión de Bahía de Cochinos]]
 
[[fr:Débarquement de la Baie des Cochons]]
:::That's precisely what it means. If something is ranked #1, it said to be ''ranked higher'' than something ranked #2. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 30 June 2005 23:38 (UTC)
[[id:Invasi Teluk Babi]]
 
[[he:הפלישה למפרץ החזירים]]
::::Perhaps you guys should reword it "The webcomic must attain a rank equal to or higher than 200,000 in a continuous 3 month period" or something... seems kind of confusing the way it is now... [[User:Sasquatch|Sasquatch{{unicode|&#08242;}}]]{{unicode|&#08596;}}[[User_talk:Sasquatch|Talk]]{{unicode|&#08596;}}[[Special:Contributions/Sasquatch|Contributions]] July 9, 2005 09:57 (UTC)
[[nl:Invasie in de Varkensbaai]]
 
[[ja:ピッグス湾事件]]
I just changed it from "above 200,000" to "better than 200,000", since that is what is meant. It is often necessary to explain to people that a ''higher'' number than 200,000 is actually ''worse'', not ''better''. (This usually comes up in VfD discussions.) It might be good to go further in clarifying, but it's a start. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel]] ("<font color="#ba0000"><u>Sarah</u></font>") 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
[[ru:Операция в Заливе Свиней]]
 
[[sr:Инвазија у Заливу свиња]]
==New idea==
[[fi:Sikojenlahden maihinnousu]]
 
[[tr:Domuzlar Körfezi Çıkartması]]
Since, well, Wikiprojects can't actually set global policy, I propose this as our new inclusion guidelines:
[[zh:猪湾事件]]
 
Articles that survive VfD or are not nominated for VfD will be included.
 
How's it sound? [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 16:49, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
 
:Sounds blindingly obvious. I '''like''' it. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 18:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 
:Wikiprojects can't set global policy, but they ''can'' suggest criteria for evaluating a subject, as [[WP:MUSIC]] has demonstrated. [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 02:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 
==Notability based on something other than popularity or longevity?==
Essentially, I'm wondering what criteria might be used to determine a comic's notability, outside of its Alexa rank (which is rather strict) or the size of its archives (which doesn't fly in VfD in practice). Possible criteria might include:
*[[Web Cartoonists’ Choice Awards]] winners and/or nominees.
*Members (past and present) of various collectives, such as [[Keenspot]] or [[Modern Tales]] (probably what groups will be included will be determined individually).
*Comics which are the focus of articles in [[Comixpedia]] or other notable webcomic sites.
Thoughts/suggestions? [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
:What about webcomic lists on the internet already? I know they function as ranking lists, but like [http://www.keenspace.net Keenspace], they act as internet communites for webcomic artists. [http://www.buzzcomix.net Buzzcomix] and [http://www.topwebcomics.com TopWebComics] immediately come to mind. --[[User:Shirley Grace|Shirley Grace]] 03:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== notability template ==
I thinking of making a notability template That will simply outline the requirements that can be pasted in a discussion or used in some other manner. It will be at {{tl|webcomic notability}}. [[User:CyberSkull|Dread Lord <font color="FF0000">C</font><font color="EE0000">y</font><font color="DD0000">b</font><font color="CC0000">e</font><font color="BB0000">r</font><font color="AA0000">S</font><font color="990000">k</font><font color="880000">u</font><font color="770000">l</font><font color="660000">l</font>]] [[User_talk:CyberSkull|✎☠]] 11:50, 2005 September 2 (UTC)
 
{{webcomic notability}}
 
 
 
 
:'''My thoughts on Notability:''' I think Proposal B ought to be eliminated completely. Not every comic that reaches 100 strips and 33 weeks is notable. Or better yet, almost no comic is notable after only 100 strips and 33 weeks. Updating 3 times a week for 8 months does not equal instant notability. Proposal A is pretty good. Alexa rank under 200,000 reflects that a large number of readers find the comic notable. Proposal C isn't bad, though again a comic doesn't reach instant notability after 5 years if no one reads it. Maybe Proposal C should only be used for webcomics that have stopped publishing, since comics that have stopped publishing are unlikely to still have the readers to have Alexa 200,000 hits? Thoughts? --[[User:Dragonfiend|Dragonfiend]] 14:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 
::Proposal B is basically used as CSD criteria at this point; it's very easy to kill a webcomic in VfD if it doesn't meet those criteria. Proposal A has a fairly narrow scope, and it's generally agreed upon that a comic like [[Bruno (webcomic)|Bruno]] is notable despite its abysmal Alexa rank of ~600k. [[User:Nifboy|Nifboy]] 16:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 
What's the point of a template? Where would this be inserted? [[User:Gwalla|<nowiki></nowiki>]] &mdash; [[User:Gwalla|Gwalla]] | [[User talk:Gwalla|Talk]] 03:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
:I was thinking of eventually making it like the babel template, in that we insert it into the talk page with the relevant inclusion items highlighted. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make the notability more prominent. [[User:CyberSkull|Dread Lord <font color="FF0000">C</font><font color="EE0000">y</font><font color="DD0000">b</font><font color="CC0000">e</font><font color="BB0000">r</font><font color="AA0000">S</font><font color="990000">k</font><font color="880000">u</font><font color="770000">l</font><font color="660000">l</font>]] [[User_talk:CyberSkull|✎☠]] 20:13, 2005 September 6 (UTC)
 
I put it on the front page of the project. [[User:CyberSkull|Dread Lord <font color="FF0000">C</font><font color="EE0000">y</font><font color="DD0000">b</font><font color="CC0000">e</font><font color="BB0000">r</font><font color="AA0000">S</font><font color="990000">k</font><font color="880000">u</font><font color="770000">l</font><font color="660000">l</font>]] [[User_talk:CyberSkull|✎☠]] 09:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 
== Thoughts on Inclusion Criteria ==
 
I apologise for starting a new discussion on this page when there is already ongoing discussion before it, but it seems that those threads seem to have petered out. I came across [[List of webcomics]] yesterday, and to me, it looks to me like Wikipedia is being way to lax about inclusion guidelines.
 
There seems to be so much dreck on that list, and I feel that the inclusion guidelines are way too lax. If I were to post 100 stick man comics onto keenspace, does that make it notable, and worthy for an article? No way. In [[WP:MUSIC]], the band/artist needs to have some kind of influence/acknowledgment outside their own musical circle. For many webcomics on wikipedia, this simply isn't the case, no one outside the the webcomic community will know about them, and only a small subset of that community will actually follow a specific comic.
 
Webcomics, being self published, means that very few will ever gain major attention. This does not mean we should lower inclusion boundaries to make sure we have many webcomic articles. Say a band has been around for a few years now, without a record deal, but with quite a few self published EPs and maybe an LP. They have a good local following, and play out regularly to some packed out small venue. They wouldn't warrant an article, yet a similarly popular webcomic with a readership of a few hundred apparently do?
 
Above, the idea was mentioned that any webcomic of over 100 deserve a wikipedia article, because no other encyclopedia would publish it due to lack of space. But just because the information could not be included anywhere else, doesn't mean that wikipedia should house it. You know what a great idea would be? A separate webcomic wiki, where even the webcomics with tiny readership could get an article. We could link it from any webcomic articles and it'd would be a great place to transwiki stuff to as well as acting as an encyclopedia of webcomics. - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 01:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 
:Maybe that would be useful for a seperate wiki, but many of these are perfectly notable for Wikipedia. Incidentally, the band you describe would also be likely to have an article that would survive AfD - we have ''many'' of those articles on Wikipedia, and I'm thankful for that. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 01:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
::That band would have been deleted as vanity. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, when I say without a record deal, I mean never ever had a record deal. And when I say a few EPs, i mean just some stuff they copied and sell at gigs. And by gigs, I mean nightclubs and bars in a town. No way is that notable enough, if it was I could list a whole string of bands in [[Scarborough]], who perform regulary at the venues there and have a reasonable following, yet would be tossed off WP. But a tiny readership webcomic like many on WP, just because they have lasted 100 strips (how hard is that?) warrants an article. As tempted as I am to write an article on [[Fleetwood Back]], the tribute band with the best name in Scarborough, I won't. - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 02:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC), Hunter of all things self-promotory.
:::You are right, 100 comics does not mean notability. Yes, people have written articles for non-notable comics. If you find one, nominate it for deletion. [[User:Dragonfiend|Dragonfiend]] 04:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
::Looking around at some of these comics, I see that there ''does infact exist'' a comic wiki, at [http://www.comixpedia.org/index.php/Main_Page ComixPedia], there seems to be a lot of stuff on wikipedia, that should belong at the comic wiki and only migrate across when notability is established. I think we should toughen up the inclusion criteria. What if a blogger makes 100 posts, are they entitled to an article? Some blogs are quite popular and read by many inside the enclosed blogging community, and will have some dedicated readers. Yet, they don't deserve an article, because there is no notability outside of the "blogosphere", the same should apply with webcomics. - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 00:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 
I agree that the guidelines look too lax to me, too. If we applied similiar ones to bands, as pointed out above, every bar band that stuck around for a little while would qualify. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure why web comics need seperate criteria from any other website. A look at recent VFDs shows that quite a few wikipedians are willing to suggest a delete, even on things that may pass the standards suggested here. [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User_talk:Friday|(talk)]] 16:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
 
My opinion is that these guidelines are not only much too lax, they are not even to the point. In my opinion checking for importance of a webcomic should not be measured by how long it has been running, but by something like the [[Wikipedia:Google test|Google test]], with a limit at 1000 (or 500 or whatever) links. There would however be the problem that many webcomics have names that also occur in other contexts.
 
I would even endorse a very restrictive policy on webcomics - something like "any webcomic included should have a specific reason for that". We don't habitually include series from self-published authors either. - [[User:Andre Engels|Andre Engels]] 11:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 
Certainly no amount of longevity is sufficient. There are some webcomics I love, both widely-read and much less so, and I respect people who stick to writing them whether they're widely-read or not. But if there aren't people reading them, they're not notable. -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 22:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 
*When I compare the currently proposed standards for webcomics to the standards at [[WP:MUSIC]] the primary difference I see is that all criteria used for determining musical notability will generate independent sources to verify the accuracy of material. Top 100 hits, album releases by major studios, or large musical tours generates reports in the [[:Category:Music magazines|music press]] while major awards are commonly reported by the [[mainstream media]]. Looking at the currently proposed standards for webcomics yields only the [[Wikipedia:Google test#Alexa test|Alexa test]] as an independent source. I would sugest the best place to look for better guidelines is in finding additional [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|independent sources]] to help webcomics meet current [[WP:V|verification policies]]. One you find a source not associated with a webcomic that can verify a reasonable amount of information on the comic you will have also found a source that shows that people not directly associated with the comic have an interest in the subject. --''[[User: Allen3|Allen3]]''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Allen3|talk]]</sup> 01:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
::I strongly agree with Allen3. Basing such a large part of this guideline on Alexa rankings seems inadequate, and at the same time also overtly reliant on a non-perfect webranking system. On that note, could we at least include some of the cautioning comments from [[Wikipedia:Alexa Test]] in this guideline? I know it's slightly redundant, but it never hurts to be clear, especially when one of the proposals in the guideline places such great importance in the Alexa rank. And basing it simply on quantity doesn't seem a very good measure of notability either.
 
::I just have absolutely no idea what would be a better "independent source" than Alexa, as far as webcomics go. The only thing I can think of is that receiving, and, for some of the bigger ones, being nominated for an award automatically qualifies you as "notable" (although I have a feeling that most awardwinners already qualify by traffic). E.g. the Eisner awards, the Webby Awards, and maybe the Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards. Anyone have more (and better) ideas for "independent sources"? --[[User:Codemonkey|Codemonkey]] 03:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:::It would be difficult to come up with a worse source than Alexa. Besides, what about obviously notable strips that ended several years ago? They're going to be underrepresented even if we can somehow find an accurate webranking system. Web rankings are not the way to go. [[User:Factitious|Factitious]] 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
::::That is the reason why I don't normally nominate dead comics. Where the only way is to do lookups on google to establish some sort of notability. Obviously notable strips which ended several years ago, will have some sort of google presence. It's the borderline notable strips which ended several years ago which I have been wary of nominating. I'm also wary of using toplists of webcomics as a reference, as most of the top comics are link spammed there. The main gripe, is that webcomics normally generate at least a few die hard fans, who then proceed to create an article about the webcomic just because it has over 100 strips in the archive, and there are more non notable ones on wikipedia. I feel that a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety etc. I mean, I reckon [[Fireman Comics]] should probably deserve an article, even though it only had about 25 strips, because it made the front page of SomethingAwful a few times (not as ALOD) and was written by [[Kevin Bowen]]. - [[User:Hahnchen|Hahnchen]] 16:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
 
Well, I'm thinking out a bit more of a balanced proposal. What I have come up with so far are some starting points; some preambles if you will.
# The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank better than 200,000 is notable is a reasonable one.
# The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank worse than 200,000 is automatically non-notable isn't necessarily true.
##As noted by [[Wikipedia:Alexa Test]] Alexa has a build in bias. Also, it's software is perceived by a part of the more technicaly literate community on the internet as [[spyware]], and as such is biased against the sites they visit. I'd pose (without too much evidence beyond the anecdotal, I'm afraid) that there is enough overlap between the webcomic reader community and the just mentioned anti-spyware community for it to affect Alexa rankings.
## There are certain cases where Alexa rank will disqualify a notable webcomic for other reasons:
### Cases where a (once) notable comic has gone into archive mode.
### Cases where an erratic update schedule makes well-read and known (notable) comics' readership read the comic in such a pattern that it is harder for Alexa to pick up.
### Cases where something has garnered critical acclaim and/or recognition, but hasn't yet picked up a sufficiently large reader audience.
## On the other hand, Alexa might over inflate the rankings of certain webcomics
### This is mostly a concern when a webcomic does not have it's own ___domain name, but functions under a sub-___domain or sub-page of a larger website
# A lot of the points made above are about what legitimate problems one may have when one takes Alexa ranking as a starting point for assessing notability. Thus, a large part of those points can be solved by simply having a better independent source than Alexa, or webrankings in general.
 
So the gist of my thoughts is that (1) we can use Alexa as a starting point for determining webcomic notability, but (2) there are some legitimate problems with Alexa ranking, that either need to be addressed point for point, or (3) we should replace the Alexa rank with an independent source better than Alexa.
 
If we can't agree on a better independent source than Alexa, we should at least address the concerns with Alexa for now.
 
I can see some obvious solutions of some of the noted concerns already. For instance, the mentioned bias in point 2.1 is in part negated by the fact that this guideline uses the cut-off point of 200,000 instead of the Wikipedia standard of 100,000. It's still something to be mindful about though.
 
For point 2.2.3, I can see us just listing a couple of the big Awards with regards to webcomics, and it might also be a good idea to flesh out Hahnchen's comment about "a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety" a bit more and put it in the guideline. For example, as a final clause to the guideline "If notability cannot be established by above methods, wikipedians should try to establish notability in the article based on status of the author, notoriety, or mention by a reputable independent source or mainstream media in the article, and should take said factors into consideration for possible VfDs"(again, just an example). In fact, I strongly think this should be good idea. (and I agree with Hahnchen that toplists should be avoided here)
 
Did I forget anything? Other comments and/or corrections on my points? --[[User:Codemonkey|Codemonkey]] 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 
: Hi everybody, just wanted to add my 2 cents to this issue:
:* "Someone other than the webcartoonist needs to actually write and develop the article in question" - a definite yes. I think this should be a general wikipedia guideline, nobody should write or edit his own article if he is so lucky to have one. Prevents vanity articles and make sure that the topic is at least interesting to 2 people in the world :-)
:* "Traffic" or "age" "number of strips" as a delimiter: Those numbers are easy to check, but they don't correspond with the main question of inclusion in a encyclopedia: Has it affected people? Did it matter to them? How does this article compare with other articles that have been included/removed? I think the only way to solve those issues is to have a public vote for every article and ask those questions. In order to remove ballot-stuffing, a karma-system (sometime) or only-one-vote-per-ip (asap) should be added to the features the mediawiki code.
:* This is a turning point in wikipedia, as it might move from "encyclopedia" to "a copy of every information possible at one place". While the second option sounds interesting, it would also add many problems to the existing architeture. Maybe a different wiki could be setup for the latter task?
:Anyway, that's my thoughts. Cheers! [[User:Peter S.|Peter S.]] 19:29, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 
::There already is a place that (very nearly) contains "a copy of [all] information possible at one place"--the internet itself! The primary goal of wikipedia is to make sure the internet has all of the well-documented information that's currently published in other forms, ''not'' to categorize things you can already find with a google search. -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 20:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 
=== Replacement for Alexa? ===
 
There seems to be a common argument that, because Alexa is biased, it shouldn't be used for the comic criteria. This is reasonable, but many people on the AfD pages seem to believe it also follows that ''no proof that anyone reads the comic is required''. This is silly. I don't care how it is done, but somehow there must be a verifiable assertion that a lot of people read a comic for it to be counted as notable simply because it exists. (Of course, there may also be other reasons it's notable too; I'm speaking for cases where there aren't.) -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 19:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)