Talk:Obesity/Archive 5 and Bay of Pigs Invasion: Difference between pages

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{{todoPOV}}
{{Infobox Military Conflict
{{oldpeerreview}}
|conflict=Bay of Pigs Invasion
{{FACfailed}}
|partof=[[Cold War]]
|image=
|caption
|date=[[April 15]] - [[April 19]], [[1961]]
|place=[[Bay of Pigs]], Southern [[Cuba]]
|casus=[[Cuban Revolution|The Cuban Revolution]]
|territory=
|result=Victory for the Republic of Cuba
|combatant1=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Cuba]]ns trained by [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|22px]] Soviet advisers
|combatant2=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]][[Cuban exile]]s trained by the [[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|22px]] [[United States]]
|commander1=[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Fidel Castro]]<BR>[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[José Ramón Fernández]]<BR> [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px]] [[Image:Flag of Spain.svg|22px]] [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]]
|commander2=[[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|20px]] [[Grayston Lynch]]<BR> [[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Pepe San Roman]]<BR>[[Image:Flag of Cuba.svg|22px]] [[Erneido Oliva]]
|strength1=51,000
|strength2=1,500
|casualties1=various estimates; over 1,600 dead (Triay p. 81) to 5,000 total estimated (Lynch)
|casualties2=115 dead<br>1,189 captured
}}
 
[[Image:Alerta.jpg|thumb|230px|Cuban poster warning before invasion showing a soldier armed with an [[RPD]] [[machine gun]].]]
*[[/Archive 1]] (November 2004-September 2005)
The 1961 '''Bay of Pigs Invasion''' (also known in Cuba as the '''Playa Girón''' after the beach in the [[Bay of Pigs]] where the landing took place) was an unsuccessful [[United States]]-planned and funded attempted invasion by armed [[Cuban exile]]s in southwest [[Cuba]]. An attempt to overthrow the government of [[Fidel Castro]], this action accelerated a rapid deterioration in [[Cuban-American relations]], which was further worsened by the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] the following year. The name Bay of Pigs comes from Bahía de Cochinos, where in all probability "Cochino" refers to a species of [[Triggerfish]] (Balistes vetula) [http://www.invemar.org.co/redcostera1/invemar/docs/Vol33/BIMC_33_03_Claro.pdf], rather than pigs ([[Boar|Sus scrofa]]).
*[[/Archive 2]] (October-November 2005)
 
The pigs at the island
== POV ==
Tensions between [[The United States]] and [[Cuba]] had increased steadily since the [[Cuban Revolution]] of 1959. The [[Dwight Eisenhower|Eisenhower]] and [[John F. Kennedy|Kennedy]] administrations had judged that Castro's policies, including the [[expropriation]] of American-owned assets on the island and Cuba's increasing ties with the [[Soviet Union]], could not be tolerated.
You can tell this article is being edited by a lot of people who don't have the willpower to control their eating or stay in shape. To read it you would think everyone on Earth is a member of an aboriginal tribe standing around and worshipping a statue of Porky Pig's fat mom. Newsflash: Almost everyone thinks obesity is downright gross. You don't need a journal article to tell you this. Go outside and ask the first ten people that pass you on the street what they think about it. Even the tiny little paragraph that tackles the truth is written like an after-school special fatty apology. Just because you heard that a thousand years ago being fat was cool doesn't mean it still is today. Nor do tiny "non-Western" tribes deserve a greater level of emphasis than a country of nearly 300 million people. Places like America and Scotland are way fatter than the rest of the world, and very often reviled, by themselves and by others, because of it. This article is worse than [[Traditional Chinese Medicine]]. {{unsigned|208.120.16.201}}
* Heh. Yes, "obesity is downright gross" and "people who don't have the willpower" is definitely more NPOV than the current article! [[User:Chartreuse green|Chartreuse green]] 03:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
On March 17, 1960, the [[Dwight D. Eisenhower|Eisenhower]] administration agreed to a recommendation from the CIA to equip and drill Cuban exiles for action against the new Castro government.<ref name="thousand"> ''A Thousand days:John F Kennedy in the White House'' [[Arthur Schlesinger Jr]] 1965 </ref> Eisenhower stated that it was the policy of the U.S. government to aid anti-Castro guerilla forces. The [[Central Intelligence Agency|CIA]] began to recruit and train anti-Castro forces in the [[Sierra Madre de Chiapas|Sierra Madre]] mountains on the Pacific coast of [[Guatemala]].<ref name="thousand"/>
** The difference is I'm keeping my opinion to the discussion rather than going through and casting the article from an unnatural frame of reference; although, to be fair, changing the article to reflect my personal opinion would have the side effect of making it much more accurate {{unsigned|208.120.16.201}}
*** My apologies if this post is in the wrong place, but I thought I should point out that the introduction to the article on obesity has been locked with the words 'fat fuck' still in place. If someone with the access could change it, I think I wouldn't be the only grateful person.
 
The CIA was initially confident that it was capable of overthrowing Castro, having experience assisting in the overthrow of other foreign governments such as the government of [[Iran]]ian prime minister [[Mohammed Mossadegh]] in 1953 and [[Guatemala]]n president [[Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán]] in 1954. [[Richard Mervin Bissell Jr.]], one of [[Allen Dulles]]'s three aides, was made director of "Operation Zapata."
== Carnitine's Role in Obesity ==
 
The original plan called for landing the [[Brigade 2506|exile brigade]] (Brigade 2506) in the vicinity of the old colonial city of [[Trinidad, Cuba]], in the central province of [[Sancti Spiritus]] approximately 400 km southeast of Havana at the foothills of the [[Escambray Mountains|Escambray mountains]]. The selection of the Trinidad site provided a number of options that the exile brigade could exploit during the invasion. The population of Trinidad was generally opposed to Castro and the rugged mountains outside the city provided an area into which the invasion force could retreat and establish a [[guerrilla warfare|guerrilla]] campaign were the landing to falter. Throughout 1960, the growing ranks of Brigade 2506 trained at locations throughout southern [[Florida]] and in [[Guatemala]] for the beach landing and possible mountain retreat.
[[Carnitine's Role in Obesity]] is now on Wikipedia.
 
On [[February 17]] [[1961]], [[John F. Kennedy]], the new U.S. president, asked his advisors whether the toppling of Castro might be related to weapon shipments and if it was possible to claim the real targets were modern fighter aircraft and rockets which endangered America's security. At the time, Cuba's army possessed Soviet tanks, artillery and small arms, and its air force consisted of [[A-26 Invader|B-26]] medium bombers, [[Hawker Sea Fury|Hawker Sea Furies]] (a fast and effective, though obsolete, propeller driven [[fighter-bomber]]) and [[T-33]] jets left over from the Batista Air Force.<ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/baypigs-airforce.htm</ref>
== RFC: Sorensen research ==
The reasons why I placed this in the introduction is because almost all current discussion regarding obesity is about this particular issue. That is to say, people are either attacking these sort of findings or they are advocating them. So it's quite reasonable to say that many people who type "Obesity" or "Overweight" into wikipedia, will be following up on the controversy and expecting to read the full story. [[Paul Campos]]' book has obviously been responsible for some of this, but [[New Scientist]] have also been covering the developments with interest. Hence, we need to have some mention of this discussion in the introduction for two reasons: the first is neutrality and the second is that it is relevant and of interest to readers of the article. Now, as to whether there is a more appropriate reference I could have used, well that is a fine-tuning issue, but in either case we must have mention of these developments in the introduction. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 10:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 
As Kennedy's plans evolved, critical details were changed that were to hamper chances of a successful mission without direct U.S. help. These revised details included changing the landing area for Brigade 2506 to two points in [[Matanzas Province]], 202 km southeast of [[Havana]] on the eastern edge of the Zapata peninsula at the [[Bay of Pigs|Bahía de Cochinos]] (Bay of Pigs). The landings would now take place on the Girón and Playa de zapatos Larga beaches. This change effectively cut off contact with the rebels in the Escambray "[[War Against the Bandits]]". The Castro government also had been warned by senior [[KGB]] agents [[Osvaldo Sánchez Cabrera]] and [["Aragon",]] who respectively died violently before and after the invasion. <!--(Welch and Blight, p. 113)-->The U.S. government was aware that a high casualty rate was possible. {{Fact|date=February 2007}}.
:I think this is a new development, the significance of which is not yet fully understood. If there are further significant studies confirming this, we could consider it, but at the moment I disagree that it should receive the promimence that you gave it. That paper hasn't even appeared in print yet! [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 13:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Soviet Advisers to Cuban government forces==
::I don't object to the placement of that particular finding further down in the article, but surely the controversy itself needs to have some prominence in the introduction? --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 11:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 
A militia, artillery, and intelligence are necessary to field a regular army. Foreign advisors were brought from [[Eastern Bloc]] countries; the most senior of these were [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]], [[Enrique Lister]], and [[Alberto Bayo]].<ref>(Paz-Sanchez, 2001, pp 189-199) </ref> Ciutat de Miguel (Masonic name: Algazel; Russian name: Pavel Pablovich Stepanov; Cuban alias: Ángel Martínez Riosola, commonly referred to as Angelito) is said to have arrived the same day as [[La Coubre explosion]]; he was wounded in the foot during the [[War Against the Bandits]], the type of wound that is common to senior officers observing combat at the edge of effective rifle range. Date of wound is not given in references cited [http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Personajes/Militares/Militares1.htm]
:Have you looked at the article? [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 12:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Invasion==
Brendan, I take exception with the way you are forcing that study into the article. Obesity is very heavily researched, and this is ''one'' study out of several 1000 a year on the subject. If it is meant to overthrow a paradigm, many more studies need to appear before I would even consider mentioning this "paradigm shift" in the intro. Weight reduction most decidedly has been shown decreased incidence of diabetes, and ''there's no escaping that''. The controversy does NOT YET need to be mentioned in the introduction, which in most cases reflects the status quo. If you are unhappy feel free to [[WP:RFC|request comments]] on this matter. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 00:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
On the morning of [[April 15]], [[1961]], three flights of [[Douglas Aircraft Company|Douglas]] [[A-26 Invader|B-26B Invader]] light bomber aircraft displaying Cuban Fuerza Aerea Revolucionaria (FAR - Revolutionary Air Force) markings bombed and strafed the Cuban airfields of [[San Antonio de Los Baños]], Antonio Maceo International Airport, and the airfield at Ciudad Libertad. Operation Puma, the code name given to the [[offensive counter air attack]]s against the [[Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces]], called for 48 hours of air strikes across the island to effectively eliminate the Cuban air force, ensuring Brigade 2506 complete air superiority over the island prior to the actual landing at the Bay of Pigs. This failed because the airstrikes were not continued, as was originally planned - limited by decisions at the highest level of US government. The second wave of airstrikes, designed to wipe out the remainder of Castro's airforce was stopped due to a communication breakdown rather than a lack of political will{{Fact|date=February 2007}}. [[Adlai Stevenson]], the US ambassador to the United Nations had been embarrassed by revelations that the first wave of airstrikes had been carried out by US planes despite his repeated denials that this was so. He contacted [[McGeorge Bundy]] who, unaware of the critical importance to the mission of the second wave, cancelled the airstrike despite Kennedy's earlier approval for it. Castro also had prior knowledge of the invasion and had moved the airplanes out of harm's way.
[[Image:BayofPigs.jpg|350px|right|thumb|Map showing the ___location of the Bay of Pigs.]]
Of the Brigade 2506 aircraft that sortied on the morning of [[April 15]], one was tasked with establishing the CIA cover story for the invasion. The slightly modified two-seat B-26B used for this mission was piloted by [[Captain]] Mario Zuniga. Prior to departure, the engine cowling from one of the aircraft's two engines was removed by maintenance personnel, fired upon, then re-installed to give the appearance that the aircraft had taken ground fire at some point during its flight. Captain Zuniga departed from the exile base in [[Nicaragua]] on a solo, low-flying mission that would take him over the westernmost province of [[Pinar del Río|Pinar del Rio]], Cuba, and then northeast toward [[Key West, Florida]]. Once across the island, Captain Zuniga climbed steeply away from the waves of the [[Florida Straits]] to an altitude where he would be detected by US radar installations to the north of Cuba. At altitude and a safe distance north of the island, Captain Zuniga feathered the engine with the pre-installed bullet holes in the engine cowling, radioed a mayday call, and requested immediate permission to land at Boca Chica Naval Air Station a few kilometers northeast of [[Key West, Florida]]. This account is at apparent variance with Cuban government reports that [[Sea Fury]], [[B-26]] fighter bombers and [[T-33]] trainers flown by the few Cuban (notable Rafael del Pino, (Lagas, 1964)) and some left-wing Chilean and Nicaraguan pilots (Lagas, 1964; Somoza-Debayle and Jack Cox, 1980), loyal to Castro attacked the older slower B-26s flown by the invading force.<ref>http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticGiron1-e.html</ref>
 
By the time of Captain Zuniga's announcement to the world mid-morning on the 15th, all but one of the Brigade's Douglas bombers were back over the Caribbean on the three and a half hour return leg to their base in Nicaragua to re-arm and refuel. Upon landing, however, the flight crews were met with a cable from Washington ordering the indefinite stand-down of all further combat operations over Cuba.
:That's only if the paper is popular. If it's not such a "popular" ideaology, then people aren't going to pick it up and use it. Even scientists are only human and have a tendancy to shy away things they don't agree with. History is full of examples of new and different theories being ignored. Or rather, it isn't. - Kittie Rose
 
On [[April 17]], four 2,400-ton chartered transports (named the ''Houston'', ''Río Escondido'', ''Caribe'', and ''Atlántico'') transported 1,511 Cuban exiles to the Bay of Pigs on the Southern coast of Cuba. They were accompanied by two CIA-owned infantry landing crafts (LCI's), called the ''Blagar'' and ''Barbara J'', containing supplies, ordnance, and equipment. The small army hoped to find support from the local population, intending to cross the island to [[Havana]]. The CIA assumed that the invasion would spark a popular uprising against Castro. However, the
:This is a highly relevant issue to the subject of Obesity; I am trying to introduce it in such a way that interested readers who have looked up this topic for more information can be presented with that information. It's a big exageration to say that this is a one out of a thousand study, in fact quite a number of studies have began to contradict the conventional wisdom, but regardless of this fact, this is the current issue when it comes to obesity, and it's just not good enough to have an encyclopedic article neglect to mention it. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 09:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Escambray rebels had been contained by Cuban militia directed by [[Francisco Ciutat de Miguel]] (see Soviet Advisers to Cuban government forces above). By the time the Invasion began, Castro had already executed some who were suspected of colluding with the American campaign (notably two former "Comandantes" Humberto Sorí Marin and [[William Alexander Morgan]]<ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/morgan/Morgan-03-13-6]</ref><ref>http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html</ref> Others executed included Alberto Tapia Ruano, a catholic youth leader. April was a bloody month for the resistance. Several hundreds of thousands were imprisoned before, during and after the invasion (Priestland, 2003).
 
After landing, it soon became evident that the exiles were not going to receive effective support at the site of the invasion and were likely to lose. Reports from both sides describe tank battles (see much detail in printed references section below) involving heavy USSR equipment.<ref name="SPlister.htm">http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPlister.htm</ref> Kennedy decided against giving the faltering invasion US air support (though four US pilots were killed in Cuba during the invasion) because of his opposition to overt intervention. Kennedy also canceled several sorties of bombings (only two took place) on the grounded Cuban Airforce, which might have crippled the Cuban Airforce and given air superiority to the invaders. [[U.S. Marines]] were not sent in.
Brendan, I don't dispute that the article is relevant. Information needs to be contextualised. Your insistence that dieting may shorten life expectancy comes out of the blue. There is not even mention that according to previous theories, weight loss would ''increase'' life expectancy. This encyclopedia article is not ''neglecting to mention it''. There is just more to the article than the intro. I'm putting up an RFC for this, because we're unlikely to agree here. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 12:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Air action==
It's on RFC now[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Maths%2C_science%2C_and_technology&diff=30215052&oldid=30027342]. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 12:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Aviation is commonly considered the deciding factor during the Bay of Pigs Invasion. The first airplane of the Cuban Armed forces was obtained in 1913; Cuban pilots, such as Francisco Terry Sánchez and Santiago Campuzano fought combat missions as early as WW I [http://www.nocastro.com/documents/aviacion/aviacion1.htm]. The 1931 Gibara landing against Machado was defeated in great part by Cuban Aviation [http://www.nocastro.com/documents/aviacion/aviacion2.htm]. However, by the end of January 1959 most Cuban pilots and support technicians from the Batista era were in jail [http://www.cidh.oas.org/annualrep/80.81sp/Cuba4677.htm] or in exile.
:Okay, but I don't think we need to RfC at this stage. What I'm trying to do is to more clearly state or provide an example that illustrates the contentious nature of this topic, at least in terms of some of the scientific research. As I've said from the beginning, I don't mind which particular study we use, or even if it is more broadly stated, but the fact that this is not just black and white should be conveyed in the introduction. At the moment, saying the "benefits are uncertain" fails to convey the extent of the controversy, so here's what I'll do. I'll rewrite the introduction without mentioning the Sorensen research. It'd be more productive if instead of just reverting, you tried to rewrite it, or improve on it, if there are any problems. Thanks. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 01:04, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
During the Bay of Pigs invasion, the first Cuban exile attack with B-26 left Cuban forces with "two [[B-26]]s, two [[Sea Fury|Sea Furies]], and two [[T-33]]As at San Antonio de los Baños Airbase, and only one Sea Fury at the [[Antonio Maceo Airport]]" and two of the attacking bombers were damaged [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm] April 17 Cuban exile pilots and copilots/navigators: Matias Farias, Eddy Gonzalez, Osvaldo Piedra, Jose Fernandez, Raul Vianello, Jose, A. Crespo, Lorenzo Perez Lorenzo, Crispin Garcia, and Juan Mata Gonzalez are killed. April 19 US aviators Riley Shamburger, Wade Gray, Thomas W. Ray and Leo Baker, replacing exhausted Cuban exile fliers, die in action.
I have indeed tried to rewrite it, and you were not happy. It's becoming increasingly more obvious we do indeed need an RFC here, because you are completely ignoring my points. I think "benefits are uncertain" covers it perfectly, and alluding so extensively to fairly new studies completely neglects the fact that most researchers have not yet accepted the conclusions of the research you are so interested in. I will not revert, but I'm sure you are putting way too much emphasis on something that hasn't crystallised yet. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 02:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Cuban pilots Alvaro Galo and Willy Figueroa were jailed for cowardice, for not flying B-26; Captain Evans was accused of poisoning crews and also jailed.
In response to the RFC, I took a look. Brendanfox, your version is bizarre and unsupportable. There are many studies showing many medical problems arising from obesity. You are suggesting we give prominence to one equivocal study that shows that fat folks who intend to diet are slightly more likely to die over the next couple of decades than fat folks who don't? Even the authors do not make claims as bold as yours. Please tell us why you think this one study is worth more than a brief citation as an atypical finding of currently uncertain significance?
 
Cuban Air Force pilots included Carlos Ulloa Rauz who was Nicaraguan; Jaques Lagas who flew a B-26 and survived is from Chile' Alfredo Noa died in battle in a plane piloted by Luis A. Silva Tablada also killed. Rafael del Pino. de Varens died in a B-26 accident in Camaguey. Laga lists dead Castro fliers as: Noa, Silva, Ulloa, Martin Torres, Reinaldo Gonzalez Calainada, and Orestes Acosta. On page 81 Lagas mentions Enrique Carrera Rola and Gustavo Borzac.
At the end of the Sorenson study, there is a good concise lay summary that refrains from overstating the findings in the way you have been doing. I quote: ''''Background:'' Although it seems obvious that when overweight people lose weight their health should improve, previous work has suggested that the relationship between weight loss and health may not be as simple as that. For example, it is difficult to control for all other possible things that might cause weight loss, such as other medical conditions that could then increase mortality. ''What Did the Researchers Do?'' They started with a population of 19,993 Finnish twins who were asked in 1975 about their weight and whether they intended to lose weight. In 1981, they were asked again about their weight, and then followed for up to 18 years to see if any died. The researchers took out of the analyses all the people who had illnesses, or those who had data missing. They analysed mortality against intention to lose weight in 1975 and actual change in weight. They found that those people who intended to lose weight and who actually did so had a slightly higher mortality than those who gained weight or whose weight remained the same. In people who did not intend to lose weight, gaining weight was associated with a slightly higher mortality. ''What Do These Results Mean?'' In the people studied here who were otherwise healthy and only moderately overweight, losing weight seemed to be associated with higher mortality. What makes these results quite difficult to interpret is that the actual number of people who died was not very high, but nonetheless intentional weight loss did not improve mortality. One reason for this result may be that when people diet to lose weight, they lose fat-free tissue as well as fat. In people who have medical conditions related to obesity, losing weight is obviously desirable. But overall, preventing people, especially children, from becoming overweight in the first place seems crucial, since this work suggests that once weight is gained losing it again may not be good for health.''
 
On page 82 Lagas mentions 16 exile planes in first attack, presumable B-26 bombers. Kraus mentions eight B-26 piloted by Cuban exiles [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm]. Lagas mentions Cuban pilot Alberto Fernandez. Juan Suarez Plaza Ernesto Carrera is mentioned as flying a Seafury, and another Nicaraguan; Seafuries were also flown by Cuban pilots including Douglas Rood and Sanchez de Mola. Lagas states he was the only B-26 pilot left on the 19th of April. By April 21 ten of twelve exile B-26B had been destroyed [http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/cuba/Cuba-af-history.htm]. Eight Cuban pilots survived, only one from the B-26.
I agree that the topic deserves mention and I appreciate your link. This warrants at most a couple sentence synopsis in a section on Unsolved problems and controversies related to obesity, but certainly doesnt warrant your "many studies" sentence in the intro paragraph. [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 02:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Land action==
*I am responding to the RFC placed on [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology]] that asks: "Should the publication of studies suggesting health disadvantage from dieting be mentioned in the intro?". Per [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]] and [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]], the link does not currently warrant such a prominent place in the article. [[User:Edwardian|Edwardian]] 03:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In the beginning the [[militia]] on the beach surrendered, and the invaders moved to control the [[causeway]]s. There the fighting became intense, and Cuban forces casualities were very high, both as a result of fire power from the invading ground forces and the [[strafing]] [[B-26]]. However, once their air-support was eliminated and after expending all ammunition the invaders were forced back to the beach (summarized from Lynch, Grayston L. 2000, and others in bibliography below). The land action was very bloody. Carlos Franqui wrote:<ref>Data sources include: de Paz-Sánchez, 2001; Lynch, 2000 D; Johnson, 1964; Franqui, 1984; Vivés, 1984. Complete citations in Bibliography section.</ref>
:Have you guys actually read any of the discussion above? From the first post, I've explained ''I'm not asking for the Sorensen research to be in the introduction''. The Sorensen research was picked arbitrarily, only as an example and was only used in my original contribution. Alteripse has just reverted a paragraph which made no mention of the the Sorensen research! I'm asking that the undeniable controversy that has resulted in the last 12 months be covered, due to its notability and for neutrality. Please, if you're going to make comment and revert, be clear on what we're actually arguing about. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 03:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
{{Quotation| “We lost a lot of men. This frontal attack of men against machines (the enemy tanks) had nothing to do with guerrilla war; in fact it was a Russian tactic, probably the idea of the two Soviet generals, both of Spanish origin (they fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War and fled to the Soviet Union to later fight in World War II. One of them was a veteran, a fox (sic) named Ciutah. He (Ciutah) was sent by the Red Army and the Party as an advisor and was the father of the new Cuban army. He was the only person who could have taken charge of the Girón campaign. The other Hispano-Russian general was an expert in antiguerrilla war who ran the Escambray cleanup. But the real factor in our favor at Girón was the militias: Almejeira’s column embarked on a suicide mission, they were massacred but they reached the beach.”}}
Alright, let me address it directly. This is the intro paragraph with your insertion: ''Excessive body weight has been shown to predispose to various forms of [[disease]], particularly [[cardiovascular disease]]. Recently however, the scientific definition used to describe the condition has faced strong criticism, with the publication of several controversial studies. For example, whilst it was traditionally accepted that overweight people must have reduced [[Life expectancy|lifespans]], many studies are actually showing increased lifespans for overweight people. Interventions, such as [[weight loss]] and [[medication]], are frequently recommended to reduce the risk of developing disease, although in some cases their exact benefits are questionable, with many people undertaking weight loss regimens for aesthetic reasons.''
 
==Casualties==
You mischaracterize the nature and significance of the studies you cite.
By the time fighting ended on [[April 21]], 68 exiles were dead and the rest were captured. Estimates of Cuban forces killed vary with the source, but were generally far higher.
#The "scientific definition" of obesity is not in any sense facing "strong" ''scientific'' "criticism".
#The studies do not challenge the definition of obesity: at most they challenge the value of certain responses to certain conditions of obesity.
#Contrary to your assertion there are many studies showing increased mortality associated with excess weight-- it is not simply "tradition".
#And no data suggests, and no knowledgeable professional believes, "that overweight people ''must'' (sic) have reduced lifespans". A statistical association should not be described as a "must".
#Contrary to your assertion, I don't know of any convincing study showing that a group of obese persons has a ''longer'' average life expectancy than a well-matched similar group of average wt persons.
#The last sentence is muddled and awkward. It might be better expressed as "Interventions such as dieting and medications to induce weight loss are frequently recommended to reduce the risk of developing complications of obesity, though significant weight loss is often not achieved or maintained for long, and though evidence of health benefit for these practices is mixed. A large proportion of people attempting to lose weight are doing so for body appearance and social reasons."
Please remember that an encyclopedia is indeed a repository of "conventional wisdom", and this needs to be clearly and accurately expressed before we provide details of current controversies, which in the scale of nearly a century of obesity research are still a tiny uncertain blip, no matter how strongly some people are promoting them. I am not going to simply revert you because I am assuming you are reasonable enough to understand these critcisims and will modify the unsupportable, misleading and clumsy sentences. Please. [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 04:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
::Thanks Alteripse, I really appreciate the time you've taken to list your concerns. I'll try and address them one by one, hopefully we can all lay off the reverts for a while. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 05:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The 1,209 captured exiles were quickly put on trial. A few were executed and the rest sentenced to thirty years in prison for [[treason]]. After 20 months of negotiation with the United States, Cuba released the exiles in exchange for $53 million in food and medicine.
:Brendan says in an edit summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Obesity&diff=30306088&oldid=30304352 this new version makes no mention of Sorensen]. Well, I moved the reference down to the [[obesity#therapy|therapy]] section. The new version of the intro may not refer to Sorensen, but it is [[WP:NOR|original research]] clear and simple. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 05:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
It is generally assumed by some that during the Bay of Pigs Invasion Cuba's losses were high. Triay (2001 p. 110) mentions 4,000 casualties; Lynch (p. 148) 50X or about 5,000. Other sources indicate over 2,200 casualties. Unofficial reports list that seven Cuban army infantry battalions suffered significant losses during the fighting.
A new version of the intro by Brendan. More of the same, just stressing that weight loss is "traditionally" recommended. There is still no support for the bizarre assertion that being overweight increases lifespan. Until you can support this with credible evidence you will keep on getting reverted. You have already agreed that it's not about Sorensen, because that study is now mentioned in the #therapy section. What on earth are you trying to achieve? Perhaps declaring your POV will bring us closer to a solution. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 05:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In one air attack alone, Cuban forces suffered an estimated 1,800 casualties when a mixture of army troops, militia, and civilians were caught on an open causeway riding in civilian buses towards the battle scene in which several buses were hit by [[napalm]].<ref>http://www.serendipity.li/cia/bay-of-pigs.htm</ref><ref>http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/EJR.htm</ref><ref>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/articles/bayofpigs.htm</ref>
::JFW, one cite for that 'bizzare assertion' I've made is:
::''Excess Deaths Associated With Underweight, Overweight, and Obesity'', Katherine M. Flegal, PhD; Barry I. Graubard, PhD; David F. Williamson, PhD; Mitchell H. Gail, MD, PhD, JAMA. 2005;293:1861-1867.
::I actually think my POV is much the same as yours, there's not enough evidence to draw any strong conclusion at this stage, it's just that I believe the confusion / controversy should be clearly conveyed to the readers of the article, and you believe we should pretend everything's fine until we are absolutely certain that it isn't. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 06:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The government initially reported their army losses as 87 dead with many more wounded. The number of those killed in action in Cuba's army during the battle eventually ran to 140, and then finally to 161. Thus in the most accepted calculations, a total of around 2,000 (perhaps as many as 5,000, see above) Cuban militia fighting for the Republic of Cuba may have been killed, wounded or missing in action.
I'm very intrigued by the new research indicating that obesity ''may'' not decrease lifespan. I have always been interested in cases where conventional scientific wisdom turns out to be dead wrong. (e.g. [[Peptic ulcer]]s). It seems pretty clear, though, that this research does ''not'' belong in the article's introduction. More time is needed to reach scientific consensus on this issue, or at least for the debate in the scientific community to develop more fully.--[[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] 06:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The total casualties for the brigade were 104 members killed, and a few hundred more were wounded. Of those killed, ten died trying to escape Cuba in a boat (Celia), nine asphyxiated in a sealed truck on the way to Havana,<ref>http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/15933592.htm</ref> five were executed after the invasion, five were executed after being captured infiltrating Cuba, five died in training at their base and two died in a Cuban prison camp.
:I agree, in fact, I think we all agree that this research should not be stated as fact. But as part of running an upto-date, relevant encyclopedia, can't we at least convey the fact that there is controversy, that there is a debate? Over the last three-four attempts I've made at getting this into the introduction I've tried to illustrate the controversy by mentioning various studies that are questioning conventional wisdom, but I'm certainly not stating the results/conclusions as fact, they are only there to show that it's something that is contentious and more research is needed. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 06:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In 1979 the body of Alabama National Guard Captain {Pilot} Thomas Willard Ray who was executed after capture was returned
Brendan, have you actually read the Flegal ''et al'' study? (PMID 15840860). One of the key messages, elaborated clearly in the abstract, is that while ''overweight'' (BMI between 25 and 30) is not associated with increased mortality, ''obesity'' accounted for >100,000 excess deaths in the USA in 2000. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to do, and I will not report your fourth revert in 24 hours on [[WP:AN/3RR]] for the sake of peace, but I think you should let this matter rest. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 07:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
to his family from Cuba; the CIA eventually ("in the late 90's") admitted to his links to the agency and awarded him their highest award the [[Intelligence Star]].<ref>Thomas, Eric 2007 (accessed 2-22-07) Local Man Forever Tied To Cuban Leader Father Frozen, Displayed By Fidel Castro KGO ABC7/KGO-TV/DT. ABC San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=assignment_7&id=5056129</ref>
 
==Release of most captive prisoners==
:Thanks JFW, but you are aware that [[Overweight]] redirects to this article? My contribution stated that "recent studies have shown increased lifespans for overweight people", which is exactly what that study found. The study compared how many underweight, overweight and obese people in the US died in 2000 compared with those for a normal BMI. The results were 33,746 excess underweight deaths, 111,909 excess obese, but '''86,094 less deaths than normal''' in the overweight category. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 08:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
In May 1961 Castro proposed an exchange of the surviving members of the assault for five hundred bulldozers. The trade soon rose to $28 million [[United States dollars]].<ref name="thousand"/> Negotiations were non-productive until after the [[Cuban missile crisis]]. On December 21, 1962 Castro and James B. Donovan, a U.S. lawyer signed an agreement to exchange the 1,113 prisoners for $53 million U.S. dollars in food and medicine, the money being raised by private donations.<ref>http://onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr60/fcuba1961.htm</ref> On December 29, 1962 Kennedy met with the returning brigade at [[Palm Beach]], [[Florida]].<ref name="thousand"/>
 
==Aftermath, reactions and re-evaluations==
But again you are contrasting the findings of one admittedly good study with several others. The Flegal study points out that several studies found an increase in the "overweight" category (refs 32-34) while others found no increased but no decrease either (refs 35-57,39). To suddenly insist in basing a statement in the intro of this article on the Flegal results is, again, mangling the data.
[[Image:JFK.jpg|thumb|right|250px|[[Robert F. Kennedy]]'s Statement on Cuba and Neutrality Laws, April 20, 1961]]
The failed Bay of Pigs invasion severely embarrassed the Kennedy administration, and made Castro wary of future US intervention in Cuba. As a result of the failure, [[Director of Central Intelligence|CIA director]] [[Allen Dulles]], [[Deputy Director of Central Intelligence|deputy CIA director]] [[Charles Cabell]], and Deputy Director of Operations [[Richard Mervin Bissell Jr.|Richard Bissell]] were all forced to resign. All three were held responsible for the planning of the operation at the CIA. Responsibility of the Kennedy Administration and the US State Department for modifications of the plans were not apparent until later.
 
The Kennedy administration continued covert operations against Castro, later launching [[the Cuban Project]] to "help Cuba overthrow the Communist regime". Tensions would again peak in the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] of 1962.
I am not principally opposed to starting a seperate page on [[overweight]]; let me know if you do. But please leave the intro like it is now.
 
The CIA wrote a detailed internal report that laid blame for the failure squarely on internal incompetence. A number of grave errors by the CIA and other American analysts contributed to the debacle:
The Flegal study is actually quite a good resource, and could replace the Mokdad reference we have at the moment, which was the subject of controversy. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 09:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
*The administration believed that the troops could retreat to the mountains to lead a guerrilla war if they lost in open battle. The mountains were too far to reach on foot, and the troops were deployed in swamp land, where they were easily surrounded.
:A new article on overweight could be an idea. Strangely enough, the current introduction is even more firmly behind the conventional wisdom, then before I started contributing. Here's another study you might be interested in JFW:
*They believed that the involvement of the US in the incident could be denied.
:''Body mass index and mortality: a meta-analysis based on person-level data from twenty-six observational studies'' McGee DL Annals of Epidemiology- 2005 2 (Vol. 15, Issue 2)
*They believed that Cubans would be grateful to be liberated from Fidel Castro and would quickly join the battle. This support failed to materialize; many hundreds of thousands of others were arrested, and some executed, prior to the landings. (see also Priestland 2003; Lynch, 2000).
:I still believe we can reach a compromise on this point, how about the addition of: "However, the overall health consequences of excess weight are not entirely understood - recent scientific evidence has contradicted conventional medical opinion - and so the subject remains an area of active research and discussion." --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 10:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The CIA's near certainty that the Cuban people would rise up and join them was based on the agency's extremely weak presence on the ground in Cuba. Castro's counterintelligence, trained by Soviet Bloc specialists including [[Enrique Lister]],<ref name="SPlister.htm"/> had infiltrated most resistance groups. Because of this, almost all the information that came from exiles and defectors was "contaminated." CIA operative [[E. Howard Hunt]] had interviewed Cubans in Havana prior to the invasion; in a future interview with [[CNN]], he said, "...all I could find was a lot of enthusiasm for Fidel Castro."<ref>http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/18/interviews/hunt/</ref> [[Grayston Lynch]] among others, also points to Castro's rounding up of hundreds of thousands of anti-Castro and potentially anti-Castro Cubans across the island prior and during the invasion (e.g. Priestland, 2003) to destroying any chances for a general uprising against the Castro regime. Thus the million voices that had cried "Cuba si, comunismo NO!" on November 28 1959,[http://aguadadepasajeros.bravepages.com/cubahistoria/congreso_catolico_cuba_1959.htm] were gone or silent.
The health consequences of excess weight are very well understood. It is the definition of "excess weight" that needs revision. There are men with a BMI of 24 but severe [[central obesity]] (to the point of [[lipodystrophy]]) who develop [[diabetes mellitus]]. Elderly ladies get [[osteoarthritis]] for numerous reasons, but excess body weight is a significant risk factor. Chubby blokes get [[obstructive sleep apnea syndrome]].
 
Many military leaders almost certainly expected the invasion to fail but thought that Kennedy would send in [[United States Marine Corps|Marines]] to save the exiles. Kennedy, however, did not want a full scale war and abandoned the exiles.
I had a look at the abstract of the McGee study (sorry, my hospital does not have fulltext on Ann Epidemiol). It concludes again that obesity is associated with increased mortality, and supports the Flegel study and several others that "overweight" is a statistical but not a pathological phenomenon.
 
An [[April 29]] [[2000]] ''[[Washington Post]]'' article, "Soviets Knew Date of Cuba Attack", reported that the CIA had information indicating that the [[Soviet Union]] knew the invasion was going to take place and did not inform Kennedy. [[Radio Moscow]] actually broadcast an English-language newscast on [[April 13]], [[1961]] predicting the invasion "in a plot hatched by the CIA" using paid "criminals" within a week. The invasion took place four days later. According to British minister [[David Ormsby-Gore]], British intelligence estimates, which had been made available to the CIA, indicated that the Cuban people were predominantly behind Castro and that there was no likelihood of mass defections or insurrections following the invasion.<ref name="thousand"/> More recent analysis suggest that, probably because of the Castro government's almost complete blackout of actions outside of Havana, the sources such as those used in the Ormsby-Gore intelligence estimate were not aware of the following related material: On April 14, 1961, the guerrillas of Agapito Rivera fought Cuban government forces near Las Cruces, Montembo, Las Villas, several government forces were killed and others wounded.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 83</ref> On April 16, Merardo and Jose Leon plus 14 others staged armed rising at Las Delicias Estate in Las Villas, only four survived<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 85</ref> Leonel Martinez and 12 others took to the country side (ibid). On the 17th of April 1961 Osvaldo Ramírez then chief of the rural resistance to Castro (see [[War Against the Bandits]]) was captured in Aromas de Velázquez and immediately executed. [http://www.nuevoaccion.com/] The ruthlessness with which this resistance was suppressed is well described in Franqui.<ref>Franqui 1984, pp. 111-115 </ref> On April 3, 1961, a bomb attack on militia barracks in Bayamo killed four militia and eight more are wounded; on April 6, the Hershey Sugar factory in Matanzas is destroyed by sabotage; on April 18, Directorio guerrilla Marcelino Magaňaz died in action in Sierra Maestra.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 79-89</ref> On April 19 at least seven Cubans plus two US citizens Angus K. McNair and Howard F. Anderson are executed in Pinar del Rio Province.<ref>Corzo, 2003 p. 90</ref>. However, the general Cuban population was not well informed, except for CIA funded Radio Swan [http://www.firmaspress.com/viaje-al-corazon-de-cuba.pdf] [[Pirate radio in Central America and Caribbean Sea]], since May of 1960 almost all means of public communication were in the government’s hands.<ref>. NYT May 26, 1960 p. 5; [http://www.cidh.oas.org/countryrep/Cuba83eng/chap.5.htm]</ref>
I strongly disagree with your proposed new intro. As I said, the health consequences of excess weight are very well understood. The BMI paragraph states correctly that ranges of "normalcy" are being redefined on a frequent basis, and with the evidence above in hand I suspect the professional organisations will soon agree that treating obesity (and not overweight) should be a priority. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 10:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The invasion is often criticized as making Castro even more popular, adding nationalistic sentiments to the support for his economic policies. Following the initial B-26 bombings, he declared the revolution "[[Marxism-Leninism|Marxist-Leninist]]". After the invasion, he pursued closer relations with the Soviet Union, partly for protection, which helped pave the way for the [[Cuban Missile Crisis]] a year and a half later.
:Is this any better? "However, the overall health consequences of excess weight are not entirely clear - recent scientific evidence has cast some doubt over conventional medical opinion - and so the subject remains an area of active research and discussion." --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 10:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
There are still yearly nation-wide drills in Cuba during the 'Dia de la Defensa' (defense day) to prepare the entire population for an invasion.
It misses the basic point that we know full well that excessive weight (say BMI>30 or BMI>35) has very clear known consequences. Your line would be perfect in the intro of [[overweight]], still to be written. Conventional medical opinion is not challenged at all by "recent scientific evidence", not more than by any other [[clinical trials with surprising outcomes]]. It is overly sensationalist. Not every scientific field undergoes a massive paradigm shift every 2.5 weeks. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 12:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 
An appendix to the Enrique Ros book pp. 287-298 gives the names of Bay of Pigs veterans who became officers in the US Army in Vietnam, these names include 6 Colonels, 19 Lt Colonels, 9 Majors, and 29 Captains. As of March 2007, the Communist Party is now the only political party in Cuba, and about 50% of the Brigade have passed on<ref>. Iuspa-Abbott. Paola, 2007 (accessed 3-27-07) Palm Beach County Bay of Pigs veterans remember invasion of Cuba. South Florida Sun-Sentinel Posted March 26 2007 [http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-pbrigademar26,0,6683790.story?coll=sfla-news-cuba]</ref>
:Hmmm, well putting that aside, we either need to create a new article for overweight, or modify the introduction so that its clear what the difference is. I know its covered a bit further down, under BMI, but with many terms redirrecting to a single article, they really should be defined early on. That said, I'm leaning towards creating a new article for overweight. For one, I don't know of any scientific literature questioning BMI's more than 30, so we could make the distinction clearer. --[[User:Brendanfox|Brendanfox]] 02:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== microclimates Notes==
<div class="references-small">
<references/>
</div>
 
==Bibliography==
Because obesity can result from fluid retention and from compression within environs having limited space, such as peninsula or regions having some historical significance, an introduction skewed toward food-intake management will not address other vital obesity concerns and may instead contribute to the number of unnecessary surgeries demanded and scheduled. 12/6/2005 22:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC) beadtot
*Anderson, Jon L. 1998 Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life. Grove/Atlantic ISBN 0-8021-3558-7
*Corzo, Pedro 2003 Cuba Cronología de la lucha contra el totalitarismo. Ediciones Memorias, Miami. ISBN 1890829242
*Franqui, Carlos 1984 (foreword by G. Cabrera Infante and translated by Alfred MacAdam from Spanish 1981 version) Family portrait with Fidel. 1985 edition Random House First Vintage Books, New York. ISBN 0394726200 pp. 111-128
*Lynch, Grayston L. 2000 Decision for Disaster: Betrayal at the Bay of Pigs. Potomac Books Dulles Virginia ISBN 1-57488-237-6
*Hunt, E. Howard 1973 Give us this day. Arlington House, New Rochelle, N.Y. ISBN-10 0870002287 ISBN-13: 978-0870002281
*Johnson, Haynes 1964 The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders' Story of Brigade 2506. W. W. Norton & Co Inc. New York. 1974 edition ISBN 0-393-04263-4
*Lagas, Jacques 1964 Memorias de un capitán rebelde. Editorial del Pácifico. Santiago, Chile.
*Lazo, Mario 1968, 1970 Dagger in the heart: American policy failures in Cuba. Twin Circle. New York. I968 edition Library of Congress number 6831632, 1970 edition, ASIN B0007DPNJS
*Grayston L. Lynch (see Lynch, Grayston L.)
*de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644
*Priestland, Jane (editor) 2003 British Archives on Cuba: Cuba under Castro 1959-1962. Archival Publications International Limited, 2003, London ISBN 1-903008-20-4
*[[Jean Edward Smith]], "Bay of Pigs: The Unanswered Questions," ''The Nation'', (Apr. 13, 1964), p. 360-363.
*Somoza-Debayle, Anastasio and Jack Cox 1980 Nicaragua Betrayed Western Islands Publishers, pp. 169-180 ISBN 088279235
*Ros, Enrique 1994 (1998) Giron la verdadera historia. Ediciones Universales (Colección Cuba y sus jueces) third edition Miami ISBN 0-89729-738-5
*Thomas, Hugh 1998 Cuba or The Pursuit of Freedom. Da Capo Press, New York Updated Ed. ISBN 0-306-80827-7
*Triay, Victor 2001 Andres Bay of Pigs. University Press of Florida, Gainesville ISBN 0-8130-2090-5
*Welch, David A and James G Blight (editors) 1998 Intelligence and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Frank Cass Publishers, London and Portland Oregon ISBN 0-7146-4883-3 ISBN 0-7146-4435-8
*Vivés, Juan (Pseudonym, of a former veteran and Castro Intelligence Official; Translated to Spanish from 1981 Les Maîtres de Cuba. Opera Mundi, Paris by Zoraida Valcarcel) 1982 Los Amos de Cuba. EMCÉ Editores, Buenos Aires. ISBN 9500400758
*Wyden, Peter 1979 Bay of Pigs Simon. and Schuster New York ISBN 0-671-24006-40
 
==See also==
:Sorry, obesity does not result from fluid retention. Water is water; fat is fat. And I have no idea what you mean by "obesity can result... from compression within environs having limited space" but I suspect it is a sillier concept than the fluid retention. Thanks for not adding either to the article. [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 23:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
{{portalpar|Cuba|Flag of Cuba.svg}}
*[[Cuba-United States relations]]
*[[Guantánamo Bay (Cuba)]]
*[[Swan Islands, Honduras|Swan Islands]]
*''[[Red Zone Cuba]]'' ([[1966]])
 
==External links==
Actually we are not talking about fat, we are talking about size and girth -- fluid retention within body cavities can also be termed as a type of 'edema' resulting from compression, say, in the company of athletes or 'Type A' professional businesspeople. The best and most effective remedy for such stress upon the natural bodily state is, paradoxically so it seems, well-nourished and safe sleep.
*[http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0417.html#article NY Times headline, April 18, 1961, ''Anti-Castro Units Land in Cuba; Report Fighting at Beachhead; Rusk Says U.S. Won't Intervene'']
*[http://www.parascope.com/articles/1296/bayofpigs.htm Detail Information on the Bay of Pigs Invasion] &mdash; Includes maps of the Invasion and Documents.
*[http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs.htm History of Cuba] &mdash; Bay of Pigs Invasion.
*[http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/chron.html National Security Archive chronology]
*[http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/ArticGiron1-e.html The Sea Fury aircraft at Bay of Pigs]
*[http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-BayPigsI.html Reference on Bay of Pigs Invasion at Encylopedia.com]
*[http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-150695778.html?refid=hbw_rd Bay of Pigs betrayal the betrayal of the Cuban people by the CIA, State Department, and staff members of the New York Times ranks as one of America's darkest foreign-policy moments]
{{Cuba-United States relations}}
{{Cold War}}
 
<!-- by invading forces -->
The post-pregnancy state is often ajudged to be 'obese' when a woman choses to retain amniotic fluid in the abdominal region as a hedge against infectious disease -- no amount of persuasion can force her to go to the gymnasium or join a marathon race to lose it. As well, adult people among youngsters maintain some padding when close quarters are continuous so as to cushion interpersonal encounters. 22:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC) 12/17/2005 beadtot
 
[[Category:1961]]
:Can you give us some references for what sounds like fantasy physiology to me? Are you suggesting we should just tell "fat" people to stop "choosing" to retain fluid? Have you noticed that the rate of obesity rises when children have their own rooms and the family has larger living quarters?[[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 23:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Battles involving the United States]]
[[Category:Battles involving Cuba]]
[[Category:CIA operations]]
[[Category:Cuban-American relations]]
[[Category:Cuban Revolution]]
[[Category:History of the United States (1945–1964)]]
[[Category:Invasions]]
[[Category:John F. Kennedy]]
[[Category:Fidel Castro]]
 
[[ca:Invasió de Bahía de Cochinos]]
:It's raving pseudoscience, or a hoax. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 23:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
[[da:Invasionen i Svinebugten]]
 
[[de:Invasion in der Schweinebucht]]
::I was trying to be kind. [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 01:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
[[es:Invasión de Bahía de Cochinos]]
 
[[fr:Débarquement de la Baie des Cochons]]
:I opened my mind briefly, but then discovered all other serious thought already present protested and threatened to leave. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 01:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
[[id:Invasi Teluk Babi]]
 
[[he:הפלישה למפרץ החזירים]]
I've never seen these other, real points of view presented within literature of any kind -- therefore, the opportunity to present them within RFC is laudable. Paradoxically, as stated, eating nutritious meals and sleeping will cause weight loss as a result. 04:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC) 12/19/2005 beadtot
[[nl:Invasie in de Varkensbaai]]
 
[[ja:ピッグス湾事件]]
== Remember Me? =) ==
[[ru:Операция в Заливе Свиней]]
 
[[sr:Инвазија у Заливу свиња]]
Hi Guys
[[fi:Sikojenlahden maihinnousu]]
 
[[tr:Domuzlar Körfezi Çıkartması]]
Well done on finally cracking down on removing the vandalism from this article. I will explain my rather weird actions of previous months now, so I will be forgiven and my real picture be posted up (If you want confirmation, let me know and I'll webcam with you). I was at the point where I wanted to help the wiki as much as I could, so I helped this article with a picture that wasn't me. I put the wrong liscening on it and should have explained my actions, but I was stupid and didn't. I apologise the confusion and general weirdness I caused, but I actually have a proper picture now and I am willing for it to be used on this page. It can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Boochan.png. I will put it up soon if you wish, Just asking to be forgiven for the crap I caused and to still help. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 13:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[[zh:猪湾事件]]
 
:Why should we believe you this time, Boochan? And we already have a great picture of a user with genuine obesity who has not stuffed several pillows under his shirt. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 15:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::I've Chilled - Sorry =) - However I am still leaving the fact that its a genuine picture, but will be deleted anyway (on my own request) so there is no point in arguing. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 15:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Chill, man. I'm glad you've apologised but we have no need for your picture. Really. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 16:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
No Problem - Could you have just said that politely instead of making false accusations next time please? No need is fine, if that was explained rather then it hidden in annoyance motivated drivel (understandable, believe me) first, then I would have accepted it and not posted a few lines of rant :) - Don't take it the wrong way or anything, but being accused of a fake even with the first reputation is not so good, because I'm not a nusiance user. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 16:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:No, you're not. We've just had too much trolling about the images here. At the moment what we need is a schematic drawing to explain the difference between visceral fat (located around the abdominal organs) and subcutaneous fat. According to research, the former produces a set of [[adipokine]]s (call them "fat hormones" if you like) that accellerate [[atherosclerosis]] through a form of low-grade inflammation. This is of significant importance to the article, and needs to be fleshed out.
:As for featured article status, this is still miles away, especially as we need more from the social science angle to make it truly comprehensive. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 19:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Good to hear that you understand correctly. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 04:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Here we go again, and again, and again, and again....==
Ok. For the umpteenth time -- will someone P-L-E-A-S-E tell me why this article is being vandalized on a regular basis? [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 20:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Because obesity is big. Honestly. People are interested and concerned. Teenagers have a strong bias towards obesity. They click [[fat]], then learn this is about triglycerides and fatty acids, then come here, leave their turd, and go. Go look at the G.W. Bush article. It is vandalised every few minutes. Tough. Shame. That's part of Wikipedia. It is likely to improve if anonymous users are disallowed from editing, something that has been debated on and off for the last 2 years. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 23:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
:::I never thought I would see you show as much exasperation as I do sometimes. It's probably healthy. [[User:Alteripse|alteripse]] 23:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yeah, there's this that might help— [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy]]. It's still being debated on that articles talk page too, if you want to chime in and/or make suggestions. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] 23:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Is your real name Kenneth by any chance?[http://macfarlane.diaryland.com/020208_7.html] [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 23:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 
No it's not, though my parents did consider it alomg with Benjamin. Have a nice day friend. -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 18:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 
Yet againthe vandals have struck. Sheeshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 23:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 
:Live with it, mate. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 17:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 
Are you Astrailian? I'd rather kill it, ''mate.'' [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 18:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 
:Sorry, it's popular in London as well. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 21:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 
== Obesity vs. Overweight? ==
 
I just noticed that "overweight" redirects to this article on obesity, but the two terms do not really indicate the same condition, and this article doesn't appear to actually discuss "overweight" at all. Should "overweight" be given its own article? If not, at the very least I think it should be made clear here that "overweight" and "obese" do not mean the same thing.. Anybody else have any thoughts on this subject? -- [[User:Foogod|Foogod]] 22:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:See my discussion with Brendan above. Overweight and obesity are part of a spectrum. Some overweight people are centrally obese, yet have a BMI under 30. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 22:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Ah, ok, now I see your comments above (I missed that earlier because it was under a subject heading which didn't seem to apply).. I should point out in response to your comment here, however, that my point had nothing to do with who's considered overweight vs. obese or the health implications thereof (and has nothing to do with BMI). My point is just that from a technical, clinical standpoint these terms are have fairly well defined meanings and do not actually mean the same thing, and the current Wikipedia organization implies that they are the same, which should be corrected. It sounds like there may be some consensus here that we should create a new article for "overweight".. maybe I'll look into doing that if I find the time soon.. -- [[User:Foogod|Foogod]] 19:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::There should be an overweight article regarding the stock market term (i.e. overweight, underweight, equal weight) versus an automatic redirection to an article on obesity. --[[User:Rmoss78|Rmoss78]] 20:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Foogod, this article explains the term overweight. This is normal Wikipedia functioning - if an article does not exist it is acceptable to (temporarily) redirect it to a page that provides more information. I do support a page on overweight, but it will provide little information and should more take the form of a sub-page of [[obesity]]. The studies Brendanfox was suggesting above could well serve as useful sources for an [[overweight]] page. Rmoss78 can then split off [[overweight (stock market)]], which is an uncommon use of the term (as per [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation]]). [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 20:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Ok, I've created a new article for [[Overweight]], based on references found here and various other information I've collected. Please take a look and tell me what you think. -- [[User:Foogod|Foogod]] 00:04, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==VANDALISM==
Willy on Wheels was here! --[[User:PublicUserAccount|PublicUserAccount]] 15:08, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 
No vandalism please. --[[User:82.42.237.114|82.42.237.114]] 15:08, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Semi-protection==
What's the point? --[[User:Bulgarian Ben|Bulgarian Ben]] 18:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Agreed with you, Ben. This is stupid! --[[User:Sunseeking Jay|Sunseeking Jay]] 18:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:The point, of course, is too keep the page from being vandalized. And it seems to be working. --[[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 18:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::Not too well! The infamous [[Wikipedia:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal|North Carolina vandal]] keeps hitting up on this page. [[User:68.39.174.238|68.39.174.238]] 00:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:::Well it ''was'' working while it was protected! Trouble is, WP policy won't let me keep it semi-protected permanently. Pity. --[[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Angr|c]]) 07:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:::: One week is not permanent, why not try semi-protecting this article for one week and see what happens? [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me]] 07:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
== This article has yet again been vandalized ==
 
It looks as if somone had the immature notion to vandalize the beginning of this article. Seeing that there has been a history of this from reading the talk page, I recomend that these actions be rectified.
 
== naked man ==
 
its really unneccessary-- not to mention gross. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Froth|Froth]] ([[User talk:Froth|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Froth|contribs]]) 22:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned2] -->
:If you don't like it, don't look at it. --[[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|<span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA">tɔk</span>]]) 09:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
::I agree. None of his private parts are revealed. This is what an obese human being looks like. Weither or not one finds it "gross" or something else has no relevancy to the fact its an effective picture of an overweight person. I'm sure many don't like looking at what a Penis looks like but that shouldn't stop its wiki article from having a picture of it for strictly informative reasons. Man...I don't get all this attitude towards this picture. Its just a fat guy, whats so disturbing about that?--[[User:Kiyosuki|Kiyosuki]] 19:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 
 
I deleted the nude man photo. That is indecent.{{unsigned|144.126.76.102}}
:Wikipedia is [[WP:NOT|not]] censored for content. The picture is relevant to the content, and I have restored it. Please do not remove information from the articles without prior discussion.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis)]] 13:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
::not because it looks indecent-- but because more appropriate visuals exist-- should the article use a different picture. don't make this a stand against censorship. when obesity comes to mind, i think of fat people, not fat nude people saturated with light, wearing weird glasses, picnicking. the picture, on a whole, is not very good.[[User:68.222.12.248|68.222.12.248]] 02:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 
To be hinest, I don't think the man actually WAS nude -- nothing was showing because his fat was covering his bathing-suit. -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 05:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
:This was discussed in the archives. When the picture was there he actually was if someone was sad enough to grab the picture and zoom in, but then it was replaced with a censored version before it was volnterrily taken off. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 10:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Vandalism==
I think the page should be protected. Someone really has it out for that picture. I decided to change pictures of ANGR to another one (from the Fat page) in order to hopefully decrease the vandalism. {{unsigned|144.126.76.14 }}
:Even if ANGR's picture wasn't there, there'd still be plenty of vandalism. That is not where the only bit of vandalism occurs. Personally I would leave it up. It's a distractor to some people who could end up doing more widespread harm.
 
Will someone please explain to me -- as if I were a 6 year old -- why a day doesn't go by without someone VANDALIZING this article?! -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 05:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:Jason, you are now six years old, and you must have seen those ugly drawings on the subway trains and blind walls in bad neighborhoods. Most of them are no more than a person's name or signature. Sad people do this, Jason. They try to make a name for themselves by defacing other's hard work. It is not dissimilar to dogs leaving an odor mark at the bottom of all the trees they encounter.
:Obesity is a very fashionable subject, and being fat is not very popular. Combine this with the appeal of defacing others' property, and you get a volatile situation. Have a look at how often [[George W. Bush]] is being vandalised. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 15:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Apologies==
I would like to apologize for abuses coming here from Loyola College. They are coming from a computer lab located in one of the dorms. The problem was discovered when half of the computers were blocked and couldn't edit. We're working on a policy to stop the vandalism of this fine site.
::Ah that explains a lot of it. Only college students could be so overly sensitive and repressed. :D (I'm one myself.)--[[User:Kiyosuki|Kiyosuki]] 17:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
:::Or they could just be ########. :P--[[User:Kross|Kross]][[User talk:Kross|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
::::Now now..--[[User:Kiyosuki|Kiyosuki]] 22:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
::::I would ignore Kross. He's just a jerk. Read my talk page. [[User Talk: 144.126.161.43]] [[User:144.126.161.43|144.126.161.43]] 15:13, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::Boys, none of this is relevant to obesity. Go to 144.126.161.43's talk page. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 15:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
::::::What do I do to report him? That's all I ask. By the way, if you want to leave a message please do so on 144.126.161.43's talk page. I generally have most of my access to that computer.[[User:144.126.76.73|144.126.76.73]] 02:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 
==Pigs==
Does the reference to pigs really have to be in the intro? Although the pig reference may be an "objective" statement, it's derisive. Would anybody allow this to be edited out or changed to another farm animal?
::Well I can see how it could be a bit...harsh. I've wondered the same thing myself but always thought to myself that it wasn't a huge deal to really give consideration. But if it is...well I have no problem really. What about a picture of Homer Simpson? He may not be a particularly great man in the show, but he's almost universally known, and his weight is the subject of humor as well as satire in the Simpsons but at the same time he has good qualities as well as famous qualities that make him not so much of a one dimensional portrayal. I could change it...but only if a few others really agree. Aside from just the implication that an anthromorphic pig may leave, changing it like this could have some positive use on the wiki as a character like Homer or something equivalent is much more relatable since so many are familiar with the character and his qualities, where as I can't really remember where the current character comes from and he(she?) seems like such a bland example.--[[User:Kiyosuki|Kiyosuki]] 06:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 
Is this in reference to the ''PIGS IS PIGS picture I posted in the ''POPULAR CULTURE'' section? -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 05:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a pic of Jabba the Hutt instead.[[User:Ollie the Magic Skater|Ollie the Magic Skater]] 20:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought that was a good example...[[User:Ollie the Magic Skater|Ollie the Magic Skater]] 20:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 
I am guessing its the following text:
"Obesity is relatively rare, but it is common in domestic animals like pigs and household pets who may be overfed and underexercised." - I doubt its the cartoon picture. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 10:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 
==Bias==
 
I dislike how this page attacks FAs. It says more militant but doesn't acknowledge the existence of less militant ones. Nobody is denying it's healthier not to be very obese. That doesn't mean people shouldn't get the support and appreciation they need.
 
:{{tl|Sofixit}}. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 22:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:If there ''is'' any truth to this assertion, you have my support. I can't stand intollerance.
Could you spotight one or two of the sections you are refering to? It would help not having to read the entir text to find/see what it is.
 
And I happen to be an FA myself -_- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 00:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 
== Todo list ==
 
Someone started a todo list. The first item for discussion is [[AD-36]]. This has actually been discussed before, and it was my view that this information did not require mention in this article, given that the whole AD-36 thing is the work of one group and has received minimal attention in the scientific community. See [[Talk:Obesity/Archive_2#Viral_origins|here]] for my wanderings into this subject. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 22:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
:Hi JFW - As far as I recall, Morbid Obesity is generally regarded as 40 and over, or being over 100lb over the persons ideal weight. The Amount between 35-40 seems to be occasionally called "Severe Obesity". Hope this helps.. though some medical proof would be useful. I am also thinking that various difference countries may recognise the BMI for Morbid Obesity as different, as for example some countries still consider a healthy weight BMI from 23-28, rather then the recent change to reduce it down to 25..- [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 09:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== African vs African-American ==
 
I notice these two are listed as different groups under those recommended for increased BMI limits. Why is this? What are the genetic differences between the two?
 
I guess I'll collapse them into just 'African' if noone has any objections? [[User:Robthebob|Robthebob]] 00:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: Wtf? Kids are dying of hunger in Africa! [[User:Cuzandor|Cuzandor]] 22:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 
== Bariatrics and obesity surgery ==
 
The article [[bariatrics]] currently seems to be primarily about [[obesity surgery]], which is a different article. I have proposed that the two be merged. Please discuss at [[Talk:Bariatrics]]. [[User:Angr|Angr]]/<small>''[[User talk:Angr|talk]]''</small> 07:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 
I think combining them is a good idea. Obesity surgery, namely gastric bypass dominates the bariatric discussion.
 
==Major Thanks==
Thanks for having a solid replacement to the fat nude man. [[User:OsFan|OsFan]] 13:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
:Agreed. This page is in such a vandalised state, plus it makes it all the less centered on one of our mods. Thanx for finding a good replacement. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 03:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 
== needs a good pic ==
 
a good photograph of an obese person would be very helpful for this article. i understand why the last one was removed, but i imagine that there are a bunch of noncopywritten photos of fat people out there. [[User:Joeyramoney|Joeyramoney]] 20:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
:I have a feeling that whatever photo is going to be up there that someone will be unhappy with it.[[User:OsFan|OsFan]] 22:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
::why? obesity is not subjective. [[User:Joeyramoney|Joeyramoney]] 00:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
:::People had problems with ANGR's photo because he was nude. You have issues with that photo for reasons you have not specified. My bet is that there's always going to be dissent over how a fat person should be shown. [[User:OsFan|OsFan]] 20:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
::::there is no photo, that's what bothers me. the painting is functional, but it isn't a photograph. it just seems out of place not to have one. and no, people will not have a problem with ''any'' picture put up, and it actually surprised me how long the previous one remained. once i can find one, i'll add it myself. [[User:Joeyramoney|Joeyramoney]] 23:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::I would put my picture up, but I might change my mind and take it off, which has made people a bit ticked off before. I would put mine up on the condition that I can take it off. - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 09:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC) If you want an example of my picture, ask me for the link.
 
==Recent edit==
 
This was an edit done recently to the article/image. I was unsure wheather this was or was not intended to be an act of vandalism. Would the person responible please explain the meaning of their edit here? -- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 21:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 
Of course its vandalism... -_- - [[User:Boochan|Boochan]] 09:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 
::You know, with all the vandalism that was/will be done to this artice, maybe we should set up a seperate article for listing all the vandalisms done to it. Some of them have been opretty creative. -_- [[User:Robeykr|Jason Palpatine]] 00:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 
 
 
== The future of this article ==
 
Last week I made a number of substantial edits to this article. It is still my objective to work it up to featured status, given the immense (no pun intended) public interest in the problem of excess weight and its cultural, social, political and obviously medical repercussions.
 
We need a bit of an agenda as to how we're going to proceed here. I've summarised the diagnostic and therapeutic principles of obesity (although perhaps there could be some tightening in the diagnostic area), and I've cited the very comprehensive Jeffrey Flier paper that summarises the state of affairs in the "obesity wars".
 
Some sections are still in need of help:
* Epidemiology and worldwide distribution of obesity (the number of malnourished and obese people apparently is about equal on a global scale)
* Estimated medical and social cost of obesity (we only have the Mokdad reference that was subsequently discredited)
* "Societal causes" is mostly unreferenced and could do with [[WP:CITE]] injection
* The "AMA list of complications" has no reference (and is potentially endless; for example: [[thrombosis]] is not mentioned)
* "Controversies" presently mentions a few lone voices. A "bird's eye view" of the various POVs would be more helpful than a list of names (Campos says this, Critser says that).
* The UK [[National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence]] (NICE) has recently issued guidelines for the medical and surgical management of obesity. The [[Royal College of Physicians]] likewise has been working on informing the profession on the epidemic of obesity facing the Western world.
 
I'd love to hear some more opinions on what this article needs to include. For example, I'm against the inclusion of AD36, an adenovirus intensely studied by one research group that was previously mentioned in the article but somehow did not seem to improve its credibility.
 
:I would suggest splitting this article into two separate articles. One on the indiviudal medical and clinical aspects of obesity. Another on obesity as a public health and policy problem. Both areas are vast and require substantial work. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 18:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 
Are any of you aware of useful social science, psychology and politicology perspectives that could be included here? [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 17:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 
 
:Social epidemiology is widely used in public health approaches to the problem. Also, there is a lot of work in behavioral economics on obesity control policy. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 18:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 
== Obesity and the law ==
 
Instead of our present ponderous content perhaps we can get some more factual information from this source: [http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/24/2601 Obesity — The New Frontier of Public Health Law]. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 07:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 
:I know this source. There are a few errors and the legal analysis is spotty. I can suggest other sources. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 18:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 
==Center for Consumer Freedom==
I want to suggest that references to the Center for Consumer Freedom or its use as a source be flagged or marked for concern and/or removed. Center for Consumer Freedom is a front organization for the food, beverage and restaurant industries. It began as the Guest Choice Network and was funded entirely by tobacco companies. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 18:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 
==Version 0.5==
 
This article has failed review for Version 0.5. It has a clean-up tag, and the writing and structure are not appropriate for a general audience.
 
For example:
*The first sentence ("Obesity is a condition in which the natural energy reserve, stored in the fatty tissue of humans and mammals is increased to a point where it is thought to be a significant risk factor in certain health conditions, leading to increased mortality.") might be more simply written along the lines of: "Obesity is an overabundance of fat."
*The "Definition" section, as now written, is too technical for the beginning. [[User:Maurreen|Maurreen]] 06:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 
Black males have higher intra-abdominal fat risk.
 
==Controversies Section==
I have removed the sections "Medicalization of obesity", "Health effects of obesity", and "Medical Responses to obesity". The first two are not controversies save Paul Campos' work. His position and this position is not published in the peer reviewed literature and is generally not accepted. The section "Health Effects of Obesity" is unclear. "Medical Responses to Obesity" belongs under "Treatment" and is redundant. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 17:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 
==Public Health and Policy==
 
I have also renamed this section to indicate the policy and public health dimensions of the obesity epidemic. This entire section, along with much of this article, requires citation and explanation. Also, the obesity/overweight prevalence numbers are not in dispute. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 18:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 
This section lists the previous "societal causes" of obesity. There are no citations for this material yet. [[User:Pihp|Pelican]] 20:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 
== "How Cameron Lost His Gut" ==
 
In the "Environmental Causes of Obesity" section, under "Lack of activity", I'm removing everything after the word "also". It appears to be vandalism; there is no such story as "How Cameron Lost His Gut", so far as I can determine, and the citation (22) used doesn't correspond to that at all. It seems to be related to the first part of the entry, though, so I'm assuming they used to go together and I'm leaving it. --[[User:Defordj|Defordj]] 21:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 
== What's going on ==
 
I last edited this page in May, and sorta lost track of it. Comparing the versions now, there are some good improvements but a few points I'd like to bring up:
* Silly tags about references and cleanup. This article has more references and is tidyer that many articles on similar topics and of equal length. These tags should not take the place of a gentle note on the talkpage.
* Much material was deleted despite being of good quality (e.g. specialist measurement systems - don't delete it, source it!) I have reinstated this.
* Many [[WP:RS|sources]] are still nonspecific webpages, especially those cited in inline URLs (rather than cite.php references). All these URLs should ideally be replaced with more elaborate citations so the reader can guess their authoratitiveness (is that a word?) from the reference. John Doe's website is not the WHO/CDC/NIH website, or what?
* {{User|Pihp}} kindly added some really useful sources, but probably was unaware that cite.php allows multiple instances of one cite. I've fixed this.
 
As I've stated, this topic attracts immense public attention, and the article needs to be one of Wikipedia's best. I'm gonna start watching it again, and have asked [[User:Pihp|Pihp]] to comment here. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 11:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
:I tried to mark in the talk page some of the major changes I made, e.g. deletion of specialist measurement systems. Specialist measurement systems, for example, seem technical and are implied by the three diagnostic tools mentioned. I also removed etymology as it seemed irrelevant. I was going to work on the public health and obesity section as that is more my area of expertise. I do think the page might be well served by splitting this article into two or more separate articles. [[User:Pihp|Pelican (PIHP)]] 01:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 
== NPOV? ==
 
In the subject of cultural and social significance isnt there a slight NPOV? The section feels like Obesity was valued in acnient times and in modern times it is somewhat less attractive because "thinness" is cosidered somewhat better. when the reality is that while it may ahve been good looking ages ago obese people are ridculed, shunned and looked down upon by most of the non obese world in modern times?
 
 
______________________________________
 
Second this. There's a big paragraph about thinness as a modern, Western body preference and how this preference is being exported as part of the process of globalization. No citations, no research, all speculation.
 
== My impression ==
 
In some ways I like this article. For instance, it's balanced in presentation and ambitious in scope.
 
BUT.
 
It seems to suffer fatally from being written by people who are uncomfortable with the science. It is heavy on the conceptually simple topics which most readers will already be aware of, while shying away from the more current understanding of the physiology which they probably do not know and which it should be the job of this article to elucidate. I get the feeling that most writers have avoided dealing with the basic science as beyond them, relegating it to a poorly worded few paragraphs and encouragement to go read the Flier article.
 
To me the article reads as unbalanced as a diabetes article that spends pages on epidemiology but only a passing reference to glucose metabolism or the pancreas. By the end the reader may be sure that diabetes is bad - but do they really know what it is?
 
I know the science has exploded in only the last decade and by now it is quite difficult to master. But ultimately obesity *is* a neuroendocrine problem - and a complex one, so the neuroendocrinology should be at the center of the article, not a footnote.
 
This may take time to research and present clearly and accurately, but until that's done, I'm not sure what the article is really worth. [[User:Kately|Kately]] 07:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 
:I have been only very superficial in citing the Flier review. There are very many studies coming out on a regular basis, but this area of medicine presently lacks a unifying hypothesis.
:You are of course warmly invited to expand on the pathophysiology, provided that it is accessible to the general readership and adequately sourced. I'm happy to help if you provide some pointers that you think should be covered.
:I disagree with your assessment of the diabetes article. Of necessity, it cannot list the 100s of relevant pathophysiological details. It provides a general picture, which is then elaborated on in the subarticles about type 1 and type 2. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 20:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
:I would like to suggest again that this article be split into two. The clinical and medical dimensions of obesity/overweight are related but distinct from obesity as a public health problem where issues of clinical assessment are secondary to the use of BMI as a epidemiologial measure in a population. Obesity is a clinical problem and a public health problem. The two are related but distinct. Perhaps separating the article into two articles or parts will eliminate some of the confusion. [[User:Pihp|pihp]] 20:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 
==Sprotected - again==
Too much vandalism. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 20:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 
==Environmental Factors==
 
article mentions all reasons from "cheap gas" (which is bunk), to portion sizes increasing, to desk jobs, but what about one key thing? "Fatty foods invariable taste 100% better to most people than fruits and vegetables! healthy foods have no taste.
 
==Viral causes==
 
I see that discussion of viral causes is now on the to-do list. I actually added some of this data on 6 November 2005, but it was deleted two days later.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Obesity&oldid=27540251] [[User:Mike Serfas|Mike Serfas]] 20:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 
:It is a little theory espoused by one research group and has not been confirmed by anyone else. It is dwarfed in significance by the many other more "mainstream" lines of research in obesity. I will protest the inclusion of AD-36 until several large studies show a ''clinical'' relevance of this virus in humans. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 06:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 
== Weight Gain ==
 
I noticed Weight Gain redirects here. Even when its under for example, the side affects of a corticosteroid. Since weight gain doesn't necessarily lead to obesity, it probably should be changed somehow. [[User:Ledmonkey|Ledmonkey]] 19:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 
==Non-medical consequences==
{{User|Winkwink}} has been populating a new section with "non-medical consequences". I was hoping he could fill us in on ''primary sources'' (see [[WP:RS]] for details). News articles etc are generally poor sources of information - they may provide some context but are usually inferior to the actual publications - in this case a government report on fuel costs and seating problems. All the medical material is presently sourced to journal articles - we should expect nothing less of the non-medical content. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 06:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
:Primary source material has been added in the recent editing. Thanks for your interest in this section. By the way most of my edits (by edit count) to this article have nothing to do with the non-medical consequences of obesity, but are rather directed to improve the article as a whole. Regards. [[User:Winkwink|Winkwink]] 16:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 
Thanks for your help in improving the article. I have only a limited perspective and have been looking some time for editors willing to contribute to the article enough to raise it to [[WP:FA|featured]] status.
"Improvements" seem largely directed towards demonizing the fat and those advocating on their behalf.
 
Would you be able to provide primary references for the other statements in the new section? [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 16:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
: More primary refencing supplied just now. still looking for more and better references. cheers [[User:Winkwink|Winkwink]] 18:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 
I've doctored them a bit (no pun intended). I hope that in the fullness of time all inline URLs will be replaced with more descriptive full references. Don't forget to adhere to the academic citation standard. I managed to find the PMID code associated with the Dannenberg article, and an URL for the Finkelstein paper (which is online-only). [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 20:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 
== Protected - again ==
 
15 vandals within 24 hours. I don't care, protection is back on. We should consider permanently protecting this page. The only editors who contribute are longstanding users. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 19:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 
:'''Keep''' it semi-protected. Too much editor energy goes into reverting vandals instead of improving the article. [[User:Nunquam Dormio|Nunquam Dormio]] 20:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 
== What I would like to see ==
As a person 60 pounds overweight I think this article is well done. Although I wish it was more helpful in a couple areas...
 
# More than the token mention of the mental problems associated with Obesity.
# Information that would help identify self-destructive behaviors.
 
== Taking A Stand. ==
 
From bbc.co.uk ...
"Today, the goverment announced it's newest initiative to combat obesity in the UK - changes have been made to the laws regulating the manufacturing of clothing. From November 15th, all adults over size 16 will require a liscence to buy larger items, and will only be able to do so from specialised outlets ..."
 
Bloody hell, I know SOMETHING needs to be done, but surely this is a bit far? What does everyone
think?
And this page are very good
 
== Vandalism Removed ==
 
[[User:BrandonDindorf|BrandonDindorf]] vandalized the page with an offensive, obscene comment. I removed it within 2 hours and posted a Blatant Vandalism warning on his talk page. -- [[User:Likesforests|Likesforests]] 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 
:Well done. Some people cannot find any other way to make their mark. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 21:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 
::Do you want a medal? Come on, I didn't see the vandalism, but it couldnt have been that bad. Fat people are fat because they make themselves that way, and they deserve our ridicule. fatties.