Module talk:Sidebar: Difference between revisions

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* [[/Archive 5#Nomobile use]]

* [[/Archive 5#Make tables into divs instead|#Make tables into divs instead]]

* [[/Archive 5#Width auto and similar sidebars]]

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{{Lua sidebar}}

== Should there be a way to automatically open up the relevant section of the sidebar? ==

==Glitch==

I am aware of the glitch in folowing articles. Working on it... --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|^{My Talk}]] 13:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

* <s>[[G3 Free Trade Agreement]]</s>

* <s>[[G8]]</s>

* <s>[[The Troubles]]</s>

After [[Template:Feminism sidebar]] got reorganized, a bunch of transclusions no longer automatically expand the correct section. For example, the article [[Feminist theory in composition studies]] automatically expands the "Concepts" section even though the article is now listed under the "Theory" section. Something I realized is that expanding the section ''that contains a link to the current article'' might be something that could be done automatically, so that editors no longer have to manually specify the section to auto-expand on every article where a sidebar is included. [[User:PBZE|PBZE]] ([[User talk:PBZE|talk]]) 19:39, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

:Fixed... kida. There is a big chunk of white space tho... :) --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|^{My Talk}]] 13:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

== How get "alt" text for the image ==

==Text size==

How would I make a sidebar with the text one size up from the current Sidebar template? [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 08:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

In article [[Atlanta Compromise]], it is using an InfoBox [[Template:Nadir of American race relations]] .. that infobox has an image in it. How can I add "alt" text for the image, to assist visually impaired users of the encyclopedia? I couldn't find instructions for alt text in this module page. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 01:39, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

==Hmm==

:{{replyto|Noleander}} [[Template:Nadir of American race relations]] has <syntaxhighlight lang=wikitext>{{Sidebar with collapsible lists

This seems to be getting used a lot for text that would be better off being integrated into the main text as a section or subsection. While this is an engaging layout tactic style in magazines and textbooks etc, I don't think it's useful for an encyclopedia article. [[User:Matt Crypto|&mdash; Matt <small>Crypto</small>]] 11:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

...

| image = [[File:Le Petit Journal 7 Oct 1906 (cropped).jpg|232px|class=notpageimage]]

...

}}</syntaxhighlight> and you would add the alt text inside that image specification using {{para|alt}}, see [[WP:EIS#Alt text and caption]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 12:57, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

::Great, thanks, that worked. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 13:13, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

== PleaseTitle documentalways this templatelink-blue? ==

I noticed that when a wrapper of this template is called on the page the title parameter links to, the title renders as the link color despite not actually being a link. This doesn't align with the default behavior when a page links to itself (e.g.: [[{{FULLPAGENAME}}]]) or the behavior when a non-title link in a sidebar links to the page it's placed on. It's also ''possible'' that this violates the {{tq|Links should be clearly identifiable as links for readers}} clause of [[MOS:COLOR]] (it doesn't conform to the inverse, i.e. that non-links shouldn't appear as links).

I can't find this template under [[Wikipedia:Template messages]] -- it needs to be there so people know about it. (If it's already there and I missed it, please feel free to break a piano over my head.) Also, it could do with being put into an appropriate template category. — [[User:Johantheghost|Johan&nbsp;the&nbsp;Ghost]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Johantheghost|_seance]] 09:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

My Lua knowledge is limited at best so I have no idea what/who (and, by extension, why) caused this. Any thoughts?

== Current status of template, and suggestions ==

&mdash;&hairsp;[[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) 20:18, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

So the template has been overhauled. That's a good idea, and I look forward to using it in future. I've got a few comments about the current direction:

:{{replyto|DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord}} On which page do you see this happening? Examples ''always'' help. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 21:03, 29 July 2025 (UTC)

::First noticed it on [[Mathematics]].{{snd}}[[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) 23:22, 29 July 2025 (UTC) <ins>P.S. Just realized this&mdash;only happens on dark mode (probably should've checked that earlier, but oh well.) Also: using Chrome but also shows up in Safari on my phone (again only in dark mode).{{snd}}[[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) 23:28, 29 July 2025 (UTC)</ins>

:::This also occurs using Firefox, again dark mode only. The HTML that is served has <syntaxhighlight lang=html><table class="sidebar nomobile nowraplinks hlist">

<tbody>

<tr>

<td class="sidebar-pretitle">Part of a series on</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<th class="sidebar-title-with-pretitle">

<a class="mw-selflink selflink">Mathematics</a>

</th>

</tr>

...

</tbody>

</table></syntaxhighlight> In both dark and light mode, this comes with the following CSS: <syntaxhighlight lang=css>@media screen {

a.mw-selflink {

color: inherit;

font-weight: bold;

text-decoration: inherit;

}

}</syntaxhighlight> which is what makes the word "Mathematics" appear black and boldface. But in dark mode only, the following CSS (found in [[Module:Sidebar/styles.css]]) is used in addition: <syntaxhighlight lang=css>@media screen {

html.skin-theme-clientpref-night .mw-parser-output .sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle a {

color: var(--color-progressive) !important;

}

}</syntaxhighlight> The last three simple selectors (<code>.sidebar:not(.notheme) .sidebar-title-with-pretitle a</code>) are what's causing the color to be overridden. The color value (<code>var(--color-progressive)</code>) is read from a variable that is set elsewhere. Why it's written that way, I don't know. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] &#x1f339; ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 07:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

::::I did some [[WP:WikiBlame|WikiBlame]]-ing and discovered that the last bit of CSS in your comment (the <code>@media screen</code> one) was added in [[Special:Diff/1234103998|this edit]] to the style page by @[[User:Jdlrobson|Jdlrobson]] (pinging to find the reasons for the addition as the link in the edit summary is broken and a search for "Fall of Constantinople dark mode error" on talk pages turned up blank).{{snd}}[[User:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|Daℤyzzos]] ([[User_talk:DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|✉️]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord|📤]]) 13:20, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

== Removing sidebar images as page image ==

# The code currently uses the author's (IMO) excessively idiosyncratic syntax styling. This makes it rather difficult for other users to work on it. I'd really rather that the template adopted a more minimal approach, such as by stripping out the lavish embellishment of comment tags.

# The default width doesn't match that of {{tl|infobox}}. This makes stacking sidebars and infoboxen look less neat.

# The parameter names are subtly different from {{tl|infobox}} / {{tl|navbox}} too. This makes it harder to pick the template up.

(continuation of [[Module_talk:Sidebar/Archive_6#Removing_sidebar_images_as_page_image|Module talk:Sidebar/Archive 6#Removing sidebar images as page image]])

Thoughts? [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 11:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

@[[User:Izno|Izno]]: I've added <code>notpageimage</code> to the [[Template:Sidebar/sandbox|sandbox]] and [[Module:Sidebar/configuration/sandbox|its configuration]]. [[User:The RedBurn|The RedBurn]] <small>([[User Talk:The RedBurn|ϕ]])</small> 06:36, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

:# Well, the "excessively idiosyncratic" styling is a consequence of my awareness of the differences between sidebars that use dividing lines, no dividing lines but headings with backgrounds, or nothing to indicate each section in a sidebar. I've been wondering whether it's worth setting up some default stylings within the Sidebar code to reflect this, i.e. something like <code style="font-size:95%;">sectstyle = divider-lines</code> or <code style="font-size:95%;">= heading-backgrounds</code> or <code style="font-size:95%;">= none</code>. I imagine that might make the code more modular, i.e. easier to edit -- although most I also imagine most editors wouldn't want to edit the code itself but use the various styling parameters available.

:# I haven't checked, but I don't think there is a default width..?

:# Unintentional, so probably worth tweaking ("correcting"), although they were created with Navbox and its like in mind.

::[[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 13:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

::# I wasn't actually referring to the ''styling'', but to the layout of the code itself: about a 30% overhead in whitespace, comment lines and indenting. by and large, WP code isn't indented, there are rules to when line breaks can be used without bleeding through to the output, and a comment line like <br /><tt>------------------------------- topimage --------------------------------</tt><br /> doesn't really tell any reader who is capable of parsing the code anything that they wouldn't be able to see themselves. I didn't want to remove this, but nor do I think keeping it is likely to attract others to edit it.

::# That's part of the problem. Editors shouldn't be expected to know to have to put <tt>width=22em</tt> if they want a sidebar to fit flush with infoboxen. Sensible defaults ''should'' be specified, even if the ability to override them is included.

::# See, for instance, "heading" versus "header", for instance, and the different definition of "title".

:: [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 13:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

:::# Well, I find them useful (here and in other template code) as they make it easier to identify chunks of code quickly, especially when coming back to it after some time. I guess they're the coding equivalent of headings in sidebars themselves -- or, in your ideal world, would you want to be rid of those as well?

:::# I think there's a fair number of sidebars where 22.0em would be too wide, e.g. to point to one I've seen recently, {{tl|Culture of Poland sidebar}}. The {{c|Politics series sidebar templates}} and {{c|Political ideology templates}} use an inherited 18.0em. However, I suppose this default could be mentioned in the documentation and/or placed <code style="95%;"><nowiki><!--Use width:22.0em; to match default infobox width--></nowiki></code> next to the <code style="95%;">|style = </code> entry in the "Full blank syntax" section, or in a separate section of its own?

:::# My understanding is that "header" applies only to items at the top of a page/template/document/etc, whereas "heading" doesn't; hence "heading"s here as they can appear throughout the template. Not sure how "title" differs from its {{tl|Navbox}} use..?

::::[[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 14:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

::::# I'm aware that we disagree here. The point is that on the whole more editors appear to contribute when the code is simpler, so in the interests of furthering participation in the use of the template is might be a gesture of good faith to adopt a simpler coding style in it.

::::# For a sensible default to be useful it has to be a ''default'', as in on. Infoboxen can override their widths too, but the point is that''by default'' they have a set identified width. 22em is also the default width of <tt>-small</tt>-classed navboxen and message boxes. it would be good to match that.

::::# "Heading" and "header" are basically synonyms. In terms of what they do in code, they both put up a bold, centred line of text. There's little reason to give them different names.

:::: [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 15:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::# If it's the case that more people tend to be put off by headings and alignments than find them useful, then I suppose it makes sense to remove them. I have no idea whether or not that's true, though. If so, maybe it's because templates like this only tend to be edited by people who are relatively experienced at computer programming, unlike myself. My experience is that trying to find the start of a section of code, or the braces that mark the end of an <code style="font-size:95%;"><nowiki>{{#if:</nowiki></code>, etc, etc, can be time-consuming and frustrating in templates where there's little or no code spacing/formatting.

:::::# I think there are probably as many pages -- maybe more -- that include sidebars alone as pages that include sidebars and infoboxes, so I'm beginning to think that setting no default might be the most appropriate situation. 22.0em eats a fair way into the page -- especially in smaller windows/screens -- and would be wider than the majority of sidebars I've seen so far, so I'd say setting this width feels more like an exception than a good default.

:::::# Okay, by all means add "header" as an alternative parameter name, or make "heading" the alternative to "header". (Is it {{tl|Infobox}} that uses "header"?)

:::::: [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 10:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

== navigation boxes with common arguments? ==

I was just looking at some of the navigation box meta-templates, and it seems like each one uses different names for the arguments. This makes it much harder than it needs to be to change the style of a template.

Specifically:

[[template:Navbox]] and [[template:navbox with collapsible groups]] seem to share common argument names

|group1 =

|abbr1 =

|list1

[[template:Sidebar]] uses totally different names

|heading1 =

|content1 =

and [[template:Sidebar with collapsible lists]] uses yet another set of names (incompatible with either of the above).

|list1name =

|list1title =

|list1 =

Several of the other parameters have different names as well.

Am I looking at the wrong templates? Is there another set of navigation metatemplates that is coordinated? Are there adapter templates that mask all this in a nice way? (If we can't change the base templates, one can build template(s) to tidy this up, but no sense in doing that if it is already done.)

I was looking at this while looking at a template that has both a horizontal and a vertical version (which people are trying to keep synchronized manually); somebody asked if there wasn't a way to use one template and two different views. I think I see how to do that, but didn't reckon with having to change the names of the parameters in order to do it. But perhaps there is already a standard way to do what I want without messing with these templates?

By the way, why is it "navbox with collapsible '''groups'''" and "sidebar with collapsible '''lists'''"? Again, consistency would be nice. Thanks [[User:Zodon|Zodon]] ([[User talk:Zodon|talk]]) 07:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

:And now I see [[template:infobox]] uses yet another set of names

: |header1 =

: |label1 =

: |data1 =

:Admitedly, it isn't a navigation template, but still. I know, "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." [[User:Zodon|Zodon]] ([[User talk:Zodon|talk]]) 07:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

* I agree and have probably unwittingly added to the potential for confusion; see [[#Current status of template, and suggestions|the thread above]]. I imagine the most robust solution is to include alternative parameter names in the code, while trying to promote a particular set. I'll try to come up with a suggested set in the near future. I'm not sure whether or not there are any "adapter templates", but if there are, I wonder whether they're a good long-term solution. Meanwhile, some kind of automated reformatting between a navbox (horizontal) and sidebar (vertical) version of a template is something that's crossed my mind too, although I haven't yet tried imagining how tricky it might or might not be.<br/>Currently, I think "Navbox with collapsible groups" might be a misnomer -- I use the "Navbox with collapsible sections" redirect -- and "Sidebar with collapsible lists" rather than "...collapsible sections/groups/something" came about because it uses {{tl|Collapsible list}} -- but that, I guess, could be renamed to the more general "Collapsible section", thereby implying "Sidebar with collapsible sections". The use of {{tl|Collapsible list}} also explains the use of the '''''list'''Nname'', '''''list'''Ntitle'', etc parameter names in "Sidebar with collapsible lists". [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 20:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks. If it helps any, I built a little experiment to take a template contents and format it either as a sidebar or as a navbox depending on parameters. (The discrimination template/sidebar are what got me thinking about this, so that is the example code I used.)

::In the process I made copies of sidebar and sidebar with collapsible whatevers, and converted them to using the same main arguments as navbox. (I used the navbox parameter names just because that meant the fewest templates to adapt. They seem good enough, but I haven't formed an opinion if any set of terms appeals more.)

::I also made a few other tweaks - like adding the border=none behavior from navbox, and creating "sidebar subgroups" (analagous to navbox subgroups).

::The code is pretty rough, but you can find it with a (minimal) explanation linked to from my user page [[user:zodon#Navigation template - Navbox/Sidebar]]. I mention it in case there are any ideas/additions there that might want to include in the code here. [[User:Zodon|Zodon]] ([[User talk:Zodon|talk]]) 08:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

::* I'm intrigued by [[user:zodon#Navigation template - Navbox/Sidebar]] and will take a closer look once the current {{tl|Sidebar}} work starts winding down. Thanks for the link. [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 03:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== tnavbar=none broken? ==

If I set tnavbar=off it hides the navbar. Setting tnavbar = none doesn't seem to work (it still shows the navbar).

The code doesn't look right to me - seems to be comparing tnavbar to a variable named none (with a default value of off), but I am not up on all the intricacies and tricks to be sure what it is doing.

Also, if I turn off the tnavbar, it should also suppress the separator line above the tnavbar. [[User:Zodon|Zodon]] ([[User talk:Zodon|talk]]) 05:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

* Thanks for spotting. I've clarified the code and documentation to accept only "none". You're probably correct about omitting the line along with the Tnavbar, so I'll look into that -- do you have any examples to hand? [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 20:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

== Code revamp, and discussion ==

I've started a sandbox page at {{tl|sidebar/sandbox}} to play with the future of this template.

As mentioned in threads above, the template arbitrarily deviates from the syntax of other meta-templates. In addition, its layout differs to that of its closest cousin display-wise, {{tl|infobox}}, in that it uses "exttitle" where "title" is used in {{tl|infobox}}, adds a "topimage" at the start of the table, and uses "title" for what {{tl|infobox}} calls "above". IMO the layout should be normalised against that of {{tl|infobox}} before it is so widely used that updating existing deployments becomes impossible. This will entail manually updating those deployments against the following syntax:

# {{{exttitle}}} -> {{{title}}}

# {{{topimage}}}, {{{topimagecaption}}} and {{{title}}} -> {{{above}}}. This will require more attention than a simple copy-paste.

# {{{heading''X''}}} -> {{{header''X''}}} everywhere

# {{{content''X''}}} -> {{{data''X''}}} everywhere

There's also a rather ridiculous level of customisation allowed currently, such as per-entry style overrides. I'm not sure that allowing these is a good idea, as it could be seen to encourage the styles to be overridden at will.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. The next step will be to temporarily allow the {{tl|sidebar}} code to deal with legacy naming while the existing deployments are fixed, then to update the existing deployments, then to remove the compatibility code. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 12:43, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

* The next step, I feel, is a little further consideration. I'm not sure that following {{tl|Infobox}} is the best way to proceed; in fact, {{tl|Infobox}} and possibly even {{tl|Navbox}} might also benefit from some revision.

*#I agree that ''exttitle'' is not the most intuitive name for a parameter; ''outertitle'' has just occurred to me as a possible improvement. However, renaming it ''title'' seems odd when the majority of sidebars I've passed by have their titles inside rather than outside the sidebar panel.

*# Don't understand how bundling ''topimage/topimagecaption'' and ''title'' together as ''above'' is wise, since images above a sidebar's title (that is, a title inside the sidebar) are infrequent and ''above'' doesn't seem to be intended for images in both Infobox and Navbox. Furthermore, unlike Infobox, ''above'' doesn't appear to be intended for title-like use in Navbox. Instead, it looks as though the most common positions for titles in infoboxes and sidebars are, respectively, outside and inside their panels, so perhaps it would make more sense to set up the use of ''above'', ''title'', ''outertitle'' and ''innertitle'' (name suggestions) across the three basic templates thus:

<pre style="margin-left:4.0em; font-size:95%; overflow auto;">

{{Navbox {{Infobox {{Sidebar

|name = |name = |name =

|title = |outertitle =

|pretitle =

|title = |innertitle = |title =

|above = |above = |above =

</pre>

::Infobox's ''innertitle'' and ''above'' would be equivalent. Following from the above, Navbox and Sidebar offer two image positions -- ''image''/''imageleft'' and ''image''/''topimage'', with the more commonly-used position (righthand side or below title, respectively) taking the simpler name -- whereas Infobox looks as if it offers one, above everything else within the infobox. Perhaps it might be worth revising it to offer two as well, reserving ''image'' for the position above everything else within the infobox:

<pre style="margin-left:4.0em; font-size:95%; overflow auto;">

{{Navbox {{Infobox {{Sidebar

|name = |name = |name =

|title = |outertitle =

|topimage [or upperimage?] =

|pretitle =

|title = |innertitle = |title =

|image = |image = |image =

|imageleft =

|above = |above = |above =

</pre>

::3. ''headingX'' rather than ''headerX'' seems a more appropriate default name to me here, as I've seen "header" being used to identify whatever's at the top -- and only the top -- of a page (e.g. in word-processing). The "headers" used in Infobox and potentially in Sidebar, however, can appear throughout. (''headingX'' could even be set up for Navbox as an alternative to doctoring ''listX'' or using {{tl|Navbox with collapsible sections}}..?) I guess ''headerX'' could be retained as equivalent to ''headingX'' (or vice versa).

::4. I suggest ''contentX'' as a more non-technical, user-friendly and open-ended description. For instance, the discussions I've seen about templates and their... contents seem to use "content" or "contents" more frequently than "data".

:Lastly, I don't think customization is encouraged if the possibility of and options for it are kept toward the end rather than the beginning of templates' documentation. I'd say the degree to which it may or may not be a good thing is moot given the regular (if not frequent) occurrence of content that would leave gaps, extra lines, under or over-distinguished text and other such side-effects if it were left formatted as default.

:[[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 00:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

:*If modification of the parameters for Infobox and/or navbox is to be considered, then it seems like this discussion needs input from/connection to those templates. (at least a pointer to this discussion from talk:infobox and talk:navbox), possibly discussion should occur in some more widely read forum - since all those using infobox and navbox would also be affected.

::Is it even reasonable to consider wholesale change to the arguments to navbox or infobox? (i.e. how many uses would have to be fixed)? I am not objecting to change, just seems like a big thing and a whole lot of work, so may needs a broader consensus. [[User:Zodon|Zodon]] ([[User talk:Zodon|talk]]) 06:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

::* I don't think a wholesale renaming of Infobox and especially Navbox parameters is necessary, just the inclusion of the alternative names in their code for use from now onwards. Meanwhile, there could always be a gradual renaming, whether organized or as and when existing templates are revisited. One correction to Navbox is outstanding: ''titlestyle'' currently acts as if ''titlebarstyle'', i.e. it affects the formatting of the v·d·e and [show/hide] links in the titlebar as well as the title itself.

::: I've reformatted the naming suggested above to show equivalent parameters by row. Here's a basic Navbox, Infobox and Sidebar which try to indicate these equivalences:

{| style="margin:1.0em 0 0 6.0em; background:transparent;"

|-

|colspan="2" style="padding-bottom:1.0em;"| <big>'''Navbox'''</big>

{{Navbox

|name = Navbox

|title = title ''(innertitle)''

|image = image

|imageleft = imageleft

|above = above

|group1 = group1 {{nobold|''(label1)''}}

|list1 = list1 ''(data1, content1)''

|group2 = group2 {{nobold|''(label2)''}}

|list2 = list2 ''(data2, content2)''

|list3style = background:lavender;

|list3 = <small>(Suggestion: ''headingX'' and/or ''headerX'' as alternative to doctoring ''listX'' to produce a heading within a Navbox)</small>

|group4 = group4 {{nobold|''(label4)''}}

|list4 = list4 ''(data4, content4)''

|list5 = ''etc''

|below = below

}}

|- style="vertical-align:top;"

|style="width:28.0em;"| <big>'''Infobox'''</big><hr/>

{{Infobox

|name = Infobox

|width = 17.0em;

|title = title ''(outertitle)''

|above = <div style="padding-bottom:0.5em; font-weight:normal;"><small>[implement ''top/upperimage''..?]</small></div> above ''(innertitle)''

|image = image ''(lowerimage)''

|header1 = header1 {{nobold|''(heading1)''}}

|label1 = label1 {{nobold|''(group1)''}}

|data1 = data1 ''(content1, list1)''

|label2 = label2 {{nobold|''(group2)''}}

|data2 = data2 ''(content2, list2)''

|header3 = header3 {{nobold|''(heading3)''}}

|label3 = label3 {{nobold|''(group3)''}}

|data3 = data3 ''(content3, list3)''

|label4 = label4 {{nobold|''(group4)''}}

|data4 = data4 ''(content4, list4)''

|data5 = ''etc''

|below = below

}}

|style="width:50%;"| <big>'''Sidebar'''</big><hr/>

{{Sidebar

|name = Sidebar

|exttitle = outertitle<br/><small>(currently "exttitle")</small>

|topimage = topimage (or upperimage?)

|pretitle = pretitle

|title = title ''(innertitle)''

|image = image ''(lowerimage?)''

|heading1 = heading1 {{nobold|''(header1, group1,}} above{{nobold|)}}''

|heading2 = heading2 {{nobold|''(header2, group2)''}}

|content2 = content2 ''(data2, list2)''

|heading3 = heading3 {{nobold|''(header3, group3)''}}

|content3 = content3 ''(data3, list3)''

|content4 = content4 ''(data4, list4)''

|content5 = ''etc''

|below = below

}}

|}

::: Thinking of the ability to switch between a horizontal (Navbox) and vertical (Sidebar) template design, perhaps Navbox, Infobx and Sidebar should all use the same parameter names in their code but with the corresponding established names included as alternatives, i.e.

<pre style="margin-left:6.0em; font-size:95%; overflow auto;">

ESTABLISHED USE IN CODE

{{Infobox

|name = {{{name}}}

|title = {{{title1|{{{outertitle|{{{title}}}}}}}}}

|image = {{{image1|{{{topimage/upperimage|{{{image}}}}}}}}}

|above = {{{title2|{{{innertitle|{{{above}}}}}}}}}

|[lowerimage =] [ {{{image2|{{{lowerimage}}}}}} ]

|headerX/headingX = {{{headingX|{{{headerX}}}}}}

|labelX = {{{labelX}}}

|dataX/contentX = {{{dataX|{{{contentX}}}}}}

|below = {{{below}}}

}}

{{Navbox

|name = {{{name}}}

|title = {{{title2|{{{innertitle|{{{title}}}}}}}}}

|above = {{{above}}}

|image = {{{image1|{{{image}}}}}}

|imageleft = {{{image2|{{{imageleft}}}}}}

|groupX = {{{labelX|{{{groupX}}}}}}

|listX = {{{dataX|{{{contentX|{{{listX}}}}}}}}}

|[headingX =] [ {{{dataX|{{{contentX|{{{listX}}}}}}}}} amended? ]

|below = {{{below}}}

}}

{{Sidebar

|name = {{{name}}}

|outertitle = {{{title1|{{{outertitle}}}}}}

|topimage/upperimage = {{{image1|{{{topimage/upperimage}}}}}}

|pretitle = {{{pretitle}}}

|title = {{{title2|{{{innertitle}}}}}}

|image = {{{image2|{{{lowerimage|{{{image}}}}}}}}}

|[above =] [ {{{heading1|{{{header1}}}}}} ]

|headingX/headerX = {{{headingX|{{{headerX}}}}}}

|contentX/dataX = {{{dataX|{{{contentX}}}}}}

|below = {{{below}}}

}}

</pre>

::: This could also render any need to choose between "heading"/"header" or "data"/"content" unnecessary.

::: I'll also throw in here my feeling that {{tl|Sidebar}} might benefit from changing its current default of using dividing lines to one without these lines, with {{tl|Sidebar with dividers}} and {{tl|Sidebar with backgrounds}} then used to feed it formatting that, respectively, includes these lines or headings on backgrounds. These two formats (with dividing lines or with headings on backgrounds) seem to be the two major ways in which sidebars with more than one section are presented.

::: [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 16:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)