Siege of Vicksburg and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Unidentified locations: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 03:12, 15 May 2007

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{{User:MiszaBot/config

{{Battlebox|

|maxarchivesize = 100K

battle_name=Battle of Vicksburg

|counter = 7

|campaign=Grant's Operations Against Vicksburg

|algo = old(10d)

|colour_scheme=background:#ffcccc

|archive = Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive %(counter)d

|image=[[Image:Battle of Vicksburg, Kurz and Allison.png|300px]]

}}

|caption=''Siege of Vicksburg'', by Kurz and Allison.

{{shortcut|WT:NYCPT<br />WT:NYCS}}

|conflict=[[American Civil War]]

{{archive box|

|date=[[May 18]] &ndash; [[July 4]], [[1863]]

# [[/Archive 1 | January 2005 – April 2006]]

|place=[[Warren County, Mississippi]]

# [[/Archive 2 | May 2006 – August 2006]]

|result=[[United States of America|Union]] victory

# [[/Archive 3 | September 2006 – November 2006]]

|combatant1=[[United States of America]]

# [[/Archive 4 | December 2006]]

|combatant2=[[Confederate States of America]]

# [[/Archive 5 | January 2007 – March 2007]]

|commander1=[[Ulysses S. Grant]]

# [[/Archive 6 | April 2007 – present]]

|commander2=[[John C. Pemberton]]

}}

|strength1=Army of the Tennessee

|strength2=Army of Vicksburg

|casualties1=10,142

|casualties2=9,091

|}}

== Notes about new time template ==

The '''Battle of Vicksburg''' or '''Siege of Vicksburg''' was the final significant battle in the [[Vicksburg Campaign]] of the [[American Civil War]]. In a series of brilliant maneuvers, [[Union army | Union]] [[Major General]] [[Ulysses S. Grant]] and his [[Army of the Tennessee]] crossed the [[Mississippi River]] and drove the [[Confederate]] army of [[John C. Pemberton]] into defensive lines surrounding the fortress city of [[Vicksburg, Mississippi]]. Grant besieged the city, which surrendered six weeks later, yielding command of the Mississippi River to the Union.

[[Template:NYCS time]] has been replaced by [[template:NYCS time 2]]. The new one takes the following parameters:

==Prelude==

*1 (first parameter): service label

Just before the battle, Grant had captured [[Jackson, Mississippi]], and Pemberton retreated to the west. Attempts to stop the Union advance at [[Battle of Champion Hill | Champion Hill]] and [[Battle of Big Black River Bridge | Big Black River Bridge]] were unsuccessful. Pemberton knew that the corps under [[William T. Sherman]] was preparing to flank him from the north; he had no choice but to withdraw or be outflanked. Pemberton burned the bridges over the Big Black River and took everything edible in his path, animal and plant, as he retreated to the well-fortified city of Vicksburg.

*link (optional; only use for shuttles, where you want to link [[42nd Street Shuttle]] rather than [[S (New York City Subway service)]])

*icon (the icon shown, such as nightsonly for [[:Image:NYCS-SSI-nightsonly.svg]]; not needed if time=text)

*text (the alt tag (mouseover "tooltip") on the icon, as well as text afterwards)

*time determines how it is displayed. Not including time shows only the service label, but this is not useful unless going through an intermediate service template. time=full shows the icon and text; time=text shows only the text. Anything else for time shows only the icon.

*dicon and dtext are the equivalent for diamond services. To show both regular and diamond services, use

[[Template:NYCS br]] is a template used only inside the service templates; it formats the uses so a new line is added only when time=full or time=text.

The Confederates evacuated Haine's Bluff, attacked by Sherman, and Union steamboats no longer had to run the guns of Vicksburg, now able to dock by the dozens up the Yazoo River. Grant could now receive supplies more directly than the previous route around Vicksburg, over the crossing at Grand Gulf, and back up north.

Here are some examples with [[template:NYCS Lexington]]:

Over half of Pemberton's army of 17,500 had been lost in the two preceding battles, and every rebel expected General [[Joseph E. Johnston]], in overall command of Confederate forces in Mississippi, to ride in and save the day&mdash;which he never did. Large masses of Union troops were on the march to invest the city, repairing the burnt bridges over the Big Black River; Grant's forces were across on [[May 18]]. Johnston sent a note to Pemberton, asking him to sacrifice the city and save his troops, something Pemberton would not do. (Pemberton, a northerner by birth, was probably influenced by his fear of public condemnation as a traitor if he abandoned Vicksburg.) Vicksburg was under siege.

{| class=wikitable

|-

!

!

!Usage

|-

|no time parameter

|{{NYCS Lexington}}

|Used in ordinary text, like "the [[IRT Lexington Avenue Line]] ({{NYCS Lexington}}) is the busiest rapid transit line..."

|-

|time=show

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=show}}

|Used for transfers and next stations in infoboxes, such as on [[Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (New York City Subway)|Lexington Avenue–63rd Street]] and [[103rd Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line)|103rd Street]]

|-

|time=full

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=full}}

|Used for services in infoboxes, such as on [[125th Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line)|125th Street]]

|-

|time=text

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=text}}

|Used for transfers on service articles and services on line articles; see [[V (New York City Subway service)#Station listing]] and [[IRT Lexington Avenue Line#Station listing]]

|}

and for the G on Queens Boulevard:

{| class=wikitable

|-

|time=show

|{{NYCS time 2|G|icon=nightsweekends|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=show}}

|-

|time=full

|{{NYCS time 2|G|icon=nightsweekends|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=full}}

|-

|time=text

|{{NYCS time 2|G|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=text}}

|}

--[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 20:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

:I'm really impressed by what I see. Sorry I was away as I wasn't near a computer for the week I wasn't here. However, I will be active on the weekends, especially on Saturdays. I will be updating the articles to the new format as I see on {{NYCS|V}}. That sid, I'll be getting started. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

In the twenty days since the river crossing at [[Bruinsburg, Mississippi]], Grant had marched his troops 180 miles, inflicting 7,200 casualties at a cost of 4,300 of his own, winning five of five battles: [[Battle of Port Gibson | Port Gibson]], [[Battle of Raymond | Raymond]], [[Battle of Jackson (MS) | Jackson]], [[Battle of Champion Hill | Champion Hill]], and [[Battle of Big Black River Bridge | Big Black River]], and not losing a single gun or stand of colors.

'''Comment'''. I really don't think it is a good idea to put large amount of text in the table, as what I see at [[V (New York City Subway service)]]. It increases the verbosity of the table, making one have to "read" it. I remember doing something like this last summer, which was incidentally frowned upon because of the same reason. So I think that what I did at [[1 (New York City Subway service)]] would work better. Look and see. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 14:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Now it was time for the Union to take Vicksburg itself, and for the Confederacy's last-ditch defense. Pemberton could put only 18,500 troops in his lines. Grant had over twice that, with more coming.

:It's nice though to be able to read the text, where space allows for it, rather than learning the symbols or mousing over them. The symbols don't quite work anyway in cases like the V, which runs weekdays only; from the perspective of a V rider, a weekdays-only service is equivalent to an all-times service. By the way, [[template:NYCS time2]] was a temporary template; [[template:NYCS time 2]] is the one demonstrated above. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 10:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

==Assaults==

Grant wanted a quick end and prepared for an immediate assault, performing only a cursory reconnaissance. His troops prepared a position in front of the town and on [[May 19]] Sherman's corps conducted a frontal assault against the Rebel works, marching from the north along Graveyard Road into murderous Confederate fire from Stockade [[Redan]]. Many of the Federals found something under which to hide, sneaking back to Union lines after dark. Grant inflicted under 200 casualties at a cost of 942. The Confederates, assumed to be demoralized, had regained their fighting edge.

::I am definitely concerned about how the bus connection information would be kept up-to-date. Wikipedia is not a timetable, and bus routes (unlike train routes) are highly manipulable. Also, many of the individual station articles now have bus connections too, so that makes another thing that has to be changed in multiple places whenever there is new information. I don't really see the typical user relying on Wikipedia for bus connections, so I wouldn't put that information in multiple places that will tend to get outdated. Also, it is somewhat difficult to extract information from the table. Rather taking than a mere glance, one must actually read the table. It's far too wordy. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 08:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

True to his aggressive nature, Grant planned his next assault, but this time with greater care; they would first reconnoiter thoroughly and soften up the rebels with artillery fire. The attack was set for [[May 22]]. Grant did not want a long siege, and this attack was to be by the entire army.

:::I agree with you about the bus connections; they should be on articles, but only the "special" ones - probably only the airport connections - should be on the line and service tables. I don't understand what you mean about not being able to glance at the table. On [[V (New York City Subway service)#Station listing]], you can simply look at the beginning of each line of text in the transfer column to immediately see all the connections. For instance, I scroll to Roosevelt Avenue, look to the right, and instantly pick out 7EFGR. Then if I want I can look a bit more to the right and see that the G and R are part-time. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Despite their bloody repulse, Union troops were in high spirits, and full of meat and vegetables they had foraged. On seeing Grant pass by, a soldier commented, "[[Hardtack]]." Soon all Union troops in the vicinity were yelling, "Hardtack! Hardtack!" The Union served hardtack, beans, and coffee that night. Everyone expected that Vicksburg would fall the next day.

== Nice sources for IRT/BMT history ==

Shells rained on the city all night, including naval gunfire from the river, and while causing little damage, they demoralized the rebels. On the morning of [[May 22]], shells poured on the rebel soldiers stationed around the city for four hours before the Union attacked again along a three-mile front. Sherman attacked once again down the Graveyard Road, [[James B. McPherson]] in the center along the Jackson Road, and [[John A. McClernand]] on the south along the Baldwin Ferry Road and astride the Southern Railroad of Mississippi. They pierced the rebel lines a few times, but were beaten back by the Confederates, who could move reinforcements easily on their shorter interior lines. McClernand's corps attained a small breakthrough at the Railroad Redoubt and requested reinforcements. Grant ordered a diversionary attack, first by Sherman's corps, then [[James B. McPherson]]'s, both bloodily repulsed. McClernand attacked again, reinforced by one of McPherson's divisions, but with no success; many Union lives were wasted for his ambition. The day saw over 3,000 Union casualties. Enraged, Grant blamed McClernand for misleading dispatches.

[[User:Eric B]] (who coincidentally is the author of [http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/carhistory.html Car History] and [http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html Line by Line History]) pointed me to some nice sources about past IRT and BMT history: [http://www.electricrailroaders.org/nydiv/] and [http://www.electricrailroaders.org/sprague/]. I think we can use these as references and reinstate all original service history sections that were removed. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 08:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

==Siege==

Grant's optimism grew as realized he had the city invested. His troops picked up a new weapon&mdash;the shovel. It was a siege.

:The only major problem with the old history sections was that they were a copyright violation. These changes in services are attributable; whether or not we have reliable sources at hand, or need to go through newspaper archives, or cite official maps before and after the change, sources do exist. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 10:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Pemberton was determined to hold his few miles of the Mississippi as long as possible, hoping for help from elsewhere in the Confederacy&mdash;help that never came.

== Remove endashes from article titles ==

A new problem confronted the Confederates. The dead and wounded of Grant's army lay in the heat of Mississippi summer, the odor of the dead assaulting the rebel noses, the wounded crying for medical help and water. Grant first refused a request of truce, thinking it a show of weakness. Finally he relented, and the Confederates held their fire while the Union cleaned up the horrific mess, blue and gray mingling and trading as if old friends.

According to [[WP:NC#Special characters]], the endashes (–) need to be removed from the station article titles and replaced with hyphens (-). All articles originally had hyphens, but they were changed to endashes, and now they need to be changed back. Some of them have been changed back, but there are many more to go. I've started to do some myself, but there are way too many, and I think we may need a bot for this. –[[User:Crashintome4196|Crashintome4196]] 07:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

In an effort to cut Grant's supply line, the Confederates attacked [[Battle of Milliken's Bend | Milliken's Bend]] up the Mississippi on [[June 7]]. This was mainly defended by untrained [[African-American | black]] troops, who fought bravely with inferior weaponry and finally fought off the rebels with help from gunboats, although at horrible cost; the defenders lost 652 to the Confederate 185. The loss at Milliken's Bend left the rebels with no hope for relief but from the cautious Johnston. Opinion within Vicksburg passed from "Johnston is coming!" to "Where is Johnston?" The Confederates had a position of natural strength and interior lines, but Grant's three-to-one superiority in numbers had them in a chokehold.

:I myself am most active on Wikipedia on weekends/Saturdays, so I will try to take care of the moves as much as I can. Unless there are some controversial cases, we should leave that to [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 09:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

All through June, the Union dug lines parallel to and approaching the rebel lines. Soldiers could not poke their heads up above their works for fear of snipers. It was a sport for Union troops to poke a hat above the works on a rod, betting on how many rebel bullets would pierce it in a given time. Union troops set off explosions below Confederate lines, such as the attacks against the 3rd Louisiana Redan on [[June 25]] and [[July 1]]. But these attacks were unsuccessful. The Confederates always healed the breaches, but were pulling tighter.

::Unfortunately, except for Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line stations, the dashes are most likely to be on the controversial cases :) --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Pemberton was boxed in with lots of inedible munitions and little food. The poor diet was showing on the rebels. By the end of June, half were out sick or hospitalized. [[Scurvy]], [[malaria]], [[dysentery]], [[diarrhea]], and other diseases cut their ranks. At least one city resident had to stay up at night to keep starving soldiers out of his vegetable garden. The constant shelling didn't bother him as much as the loss of his food.

::By the way, please fix double redirects if you move any articles. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

==Surrender and aftermath==

Joseph E. Johnston, the only possibility for a Confederate rescue, felt his force was too small to attack Grant's huge army. While Johnston's force was growing (at cost to the rest of the hard-pressed Confederacy), Grant's was growing faster, supplied by the now-open Yazoo. Johnston was lacking in supplies, stating, "I consider saving Vicksburg hopeless." The Confederate government felt otherwise, asking the cautious Johnston to attack, requests he resisted. [[Robert E. Lee]] had remarked that the Mississippi climate in June would be sufficient to defeat the Union attack and he resisted calls to ride to the city's rescue from the Eastern Theater; his [[Army of Northern Virginia]] instead invaded the North in the [[Gettysburg Campaign]] with the partial objective of relieving pressure on Vicksburg. Finally on [[July 1]], Johnston's relief column began cautiously advancing toward Union lines. On [[July 3]] he was ready for his attack. The next day was [[July 4]], [[Independence Day (US)| Independence Day]], but Yankee guns were oddly quiet. All was silent.

== Station suffixes (e.g. (IRT/BMT/IND Line name)) ==

In the city, on [[July 3]], Pemberton sent a note to Grant, who, as at [[Battle of Fort Donelson | Fort Donelson]], first demanded unconditional surrender. But Grant reconsidered, not wanting to feed 30,000 hungry Confederate mouths in Union prison camps, and offered to parole all prisoners. Clothed in their [[butternut]] rags, dejected and starving, he never expected them to fight again, and carry home the stigma of defeat to other Confederates. It would have taken months to ship that many troops north. Considering how liberal Grant was to Pemberton, paroling his whole force, Pemberton was rude to Grant in return.

I've noticed that there are fewer station article names with their suffixes removed, courtesy of NE2. Rather than start an edit war where he assumes his ideas are "better", I've decided to bring it up myself to prevent things from getting out of control. What's best, to include it or not to include it? --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Surrender was formalized by an old oak tree, "made historical by the event." In his ''Personal Memoirs,'' Grant described the fate of this luckless tree:

: I would always include the division and line name unless the article is about a junction station. -- [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 21:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:We should [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision)|be precise when necessary]]. Nothing else has the name "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center". --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 22:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:''It was but a short time before the last vestige of its body, root and limb had disappeared, the fragments taken as trophies. Since then the same tree has furnished as many cords of wood, in the shape of trophies, as the "True Cross."''

::As per Cecropia, I will start moving back the articles to the appropriate titles. PCH agrees too, according to an earlier thread. It's not feasible to assume there is only one station that uses that name. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 22:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

One of Grant's final moves of the campaign was against a non-Confederate enemy. In June, General McClernand wrote a self-adulatory note to his troops, claiming much of the credit for the soon-to-be victory. Grant had been waiting six months for him to slip, ever since they clashed early in the campaign, around the [[Battle of Arkansas Post]]. He received permission to relieve McClernand in January, but needed a visible provocation. Grant finally sacked McClernand on [[June 18]]. He so diligently prepared his trap that McClernand was left without recourse. McClernand's corps was inherited by Maj. Gen. [[Edward Ord]]. In May 1864 McClernand was again restored to a command in far-away [[Texas]].

:::There '''is''' only one station with the name "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center". What else could have that name? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 00:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

==See also==

* [[Vicksburg National Military Park]]

* [[Vicksburg National Cemetery]]

* [[Grant's Canal]]

::::There are other stations that share 50th Street. 47th through 50ths is one of them. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 07:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

==External links==

*[http://www.nps.gov/vick/vcmpgn/key.htm National Park Service, Vicksburg]

*[http://home.nycap.rr.com/history/grant.html Grant, U.S., ''Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant'' online]

*[http://www.military.com/Resources/pics/civilwar_map22_largerview.jpg ''West Point Atlas'' map of the siege]

*[http://www.us-civilwar.com/vicksburg.htm Online description of the siege]

:::::That's not what I asked. What's ambiguous about "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center"? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 07:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[[Category:Battles of Grant's Operations Against Vicksburg of the American Civil War|Vicksburg]]

[[Category:Sieges of the American Civil War|Vicksburg]]

::::::Just because the guidelines give advice on what to do, doesn't mean it ''has'' to be done. (Consider [[WP:IAR]]. Not all of the rules should be used for editing WP, mostly guidelines. They just give tips.) Yet, you still persist on making the changes, when we, the people of this project objected to changing the name, yet you go on and do whatever you want. Who do you think you are, the owner of this project, dictator, who should always have your way? No. You may have made a lot of contributions to the project, but that doesn't mean you should start dictating how things should be done. Continue [[Meta:Don't be a dick|your behavior]] here and it will be taken accordingly. Consider that a warning, NE2. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 10:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::You should not call others dicks. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 19:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Most articles about railway/subway stations are expected to have a disambiguator. This is what I tried to say before. Unless the name is so obvious that it is a station or transportation complex ([[Grand Central Terminal]], [[Frankford Transportation Center]]), removing the disambiguator will lead to the inconsistency of some stations having the disambiguator and some without. Few people complain that the disambiguator is extraneous.

What about the following articles?

*[[JFK/UMass (MBTA station)]]

*[[54/Cermak (CTA)]]

*[[Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (Washington Metro)]]

*[[7th St/Metro Center (LACMTA station)]]

*[[15-16th & Locust (PATCO station)]]

These articles are by choice disambiguated to their respective transit systems. Do you suggest the disambiguators for these should be removed as well? (Don't go changing those articles based on my suggestion!)

I oppose the removal of disambiguators for NYC Subway articles. "(New York City Subway)" should also be restored to articles that indicate a street intersection. I am aware of guidelines, and I would ignore the rules here.

However, people have been passionate about precision. From [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)]] : there was a heated debate whether TV series episodes need to be disambiguated (e.g. [[Unfriendly Skies (CSI episode)]] versus [[Unfriendly Skies]]). Through ''arbitration'', it was decided to disambiguate when necessary; therefore, the latter name in the example is the current title. Do I think that is analogous to this station situation? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I lean towards no. And I certainly don't want to go to arbitration to determine consensus. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 12:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:Consider me on it. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 13:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:On the other hand, [[42nd Street Shuttle]], not [[42nd Street Shuttle (New York City Subway)]], and [[South Station (Boston)]], not [[South Station (MBTA station)]]. Naming is inconsistent, but it's useful to use the guidelines to decide. In any case, I don't see this as a major issue; if these are moved back to "(New York City Subway)", I don't really have a problem with it. The problem of common names versus schedule names is much more important. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::Names of services are not as ambiguous as names of stations. As far as South Station is concerned, it is not only a commuter rail station and a subway station, it is also an Amtrak station and an intercity bus terminal, and the article combines all of those modes, so the (MBTA station) doesn't make sense there. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 03:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have news for you, NE2. If you don't want to be called a dick, '''stop''' acting like one. If people didn't act as such, we wouldn't need any other policies. That said, just about every page you moved will have its original title reinstated, except your credibility will be damaged. I suggest you learn to work with others instead of acting [[WP:BOLD#… but don't be reckless.|reckless]]. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 00:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

:That's not what [[Wikipedia:no personal attacks|no personal attacks]] says. Anyway, I don't think [[Grand Army Plaza (IRT Eastern Parkway Line)|Grand Army Plaza]] will be moved back. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::Whatever. You just think so because it is not the "so-called" common name. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 21:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== Bullets in infoboxes? ==

[[User:Geoking66|Geoking66]] placed bullets in some station infoboxes, like in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=23rd_Street_%28IND_Sixth_Avenue_Line%29&oldid=130184936]. I reverted, since this is one more thing that needs to be changed when the TA changes services. However, this can be done automatically with a simple change to [[template:NYCS time 2]] and [[template:infobox NYCS]]. Do you think this is a good idea? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:For me, the bullets are decorative, more than anything. They are not essential to convey information. I like Geoking66's format, but I doubt whether it is necessary, and I lean towards no. If anything, don't change [[Template:NYCS time 2]] to replace service links with bullets. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 12:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::Agreed. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 12:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::It wouldn't be a replacement, but an additional mode. Everything else about the output would be exactly the same as it is now; all that would be added is a new line to supplement the existing links. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 19:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:::If you want to add a parameter, feel free to do so. But when would the parameter be called (i.e. when and where would the bullets show up)? [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 03:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::It would be another option in NYCS time 2, so you could say <nowiki>{{NYCS time 2|...|time=bullets}} or {{NYCS Lexington|...|time=bullets}}</nowiki>. Then the infobox code would be modified to include that below the station name. --[[User:NE2|NE2]] 06:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::So you support Geoking66's format then? Well, I still think it's over the top, but it's not harmful. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 07:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I don't have any real opinion; I'm just pointing out that if people want it it's easy to do. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 07:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== [[Template:Infobox Station]] ==

Should we use [[Template:Infobox Station]] to replace commuter rail station infoboxes such as [[Template:Infobox LIRR]]? See [[Hempstead (LIRR station)]] and [[Hicksville (LIRR station)]] for the generic infoboxes (and compare with [[Babylon (LIRR station)]]). [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 04:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:Seeing that {{Tl|Infobox Station}} shows more information, I like the idea of using that one better. Plus, we also have to fix all the Metro-North infoboxes, as some don't have them. I haven't seen much done to those articles. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 22:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::It seems that Hempstead and Hicksville have too much information in the infoboxes. Of course that doesn't mean we have to include that information. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:::But all that information is seemingly important than the current contents at other pages. I think they should be changed and added. And don';t bother editing the LIRR infobox to fix the parameters to make them match, it would be redundant. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 01:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

== Table at [[V (New York City Subway service)]] ==

This is a continuation from a discussion above at [[Wikipedia:{{BASEPAGENAME}}#Notes about new time template]].

The subway transfers at {{NYCS|V}} are listed in a highly verbose way. For instance, this:

* {{NYCS Lexington|time=text}}

versus this:

* {{NYCS Lexington|time=show}}

The table at {{NYCS|V}} is far more bloated than the one at {{NYCS|1}}. Look at the tables from the MTA website. They are not at all hard to use. A proposal was made back in November to use a very similar format to theirs. They use icons in place of long verbiage in the style of "all times except late nights (12:00 midnight-6:00 a.m.)". However, they do omit time information and simply list services.

Also, coming to think of it, putting bus connections in the subway articles themselves isn't the best solution either. Wikipedia is hardly the go-to source for travel information in New York City, so it is not terribly important to include complete bus connection information. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 02:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:If you go to the MTA's [http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/bline.htm B table], the V is shown as part-time. But the V runs whenever the B runs, so this is misleading. If we can do better than the MTA, we should.

:We have articles about many of the bus routes and lists of the others. It makes sense to link the stations to them. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 03:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)