J. Lyons and Co. and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Unidentified locations: Difference between pages

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'''J. Lyons and Co.''' was a [[United Kingdom]] company which ran the '''Lyons Corner Houses''' chain of [[tea room]]s that flourished in the 1950s. They were popular with the [[working class|working classes]] who would typically stop by carrying shopping and with the children in tow. Service was to the table by uniformed waitresses. Many of the tea rooms were noted for their [[art deco]] style. In the post-war gloom, the Corner Houses provided a degree of escapist relaxation.

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# [[/Archive 1 | January 2005 – April 2006]]

# [[/Archive 2 | May 2006 – August 2006]]

# [[/Archive 3 | September 2006 – November 2006]]

# [[/Archive 4 | December 2006]]

# [[/Archive 5 | January 2007 – March 2007]]

# [[/Archive 6 | April 2007 – present]]

}}

== Notes about new time template ==

They were the first user of programmable [[digital computer]]s in business, with the [[LEO I]] digital computer: the ''Lyons Electronic Office I''.

[[Template:NYCS time]] has been replaced by [[template:NYCS time 2]]. The new one takes the following parameters:

J. Lyons' papers are now stored in the [[London Metropolitan Archives]].

*1 (first parameter): service label

*link (optional; only use for shuttles, where you want to link [[42nd Street Shuttle]] rather than [[S (New York City Subway service)]])

*icon (the icon shown, such as nightsonly for [[:Image:NYCS-SSI-nightsonly.svg]]; not needed if time=text)

*text (the alt tag (mouseover "tooltip") on the icon, as well as text afterwards)

*time determines how it is displayed. Not including time shows only the service label, but this is not useful unless going through an intermediate service template. time=full shows the icon and text; time=text shows only the text. Anything else for time shows only the icon.

*dicon and dtext are the equivalent for diamond services. To show both regular and diamond services, use

[[Template:NYCS br]] is a template used only inside the service templates; it formats the uses so a new line is added only when time=full or time=text.

{{corp-stub}}

Here are some examples with [[template:NYCS Lexington]]:

See also:

{| class=wikitable

* [[LEO computer]]

|-

* [[Wimpy Bar]]

!

!

!Usage

|-

|no time parameter

|{{NYCS Lexington}}

|Used in ordinary text, like "the [[IRT Lexington Avenue Line]] ({{NYCS Lexington}}) is the busiest rapid transit line..."

|-

|time=show

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=show}}

|Used for transfers and next stations in infoboxes, such as on [[Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (New York City Subway)|Lexington Avenue–63rd Street]] and [[103rd Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line)|103rd Street]]

|-

|time=full

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=full}}

|Used for services in infoboxes, such as on [[125th Street (IRT Lexington Avenue Line)|125th Street]]

|-

|time=text

|{{NYCS Lexington|time=text}}

|Used for transfers on service articles and services on line articles; see [[V (New York City Subway service)#Station listing]] and [[IRT Lexington Avenue Line#Station listing]]

|}

and for the G on Queens Boulevard:

{| class=wikitable

|-

|time=show

|{{NYCS time 2|G|icon=nightsweekends|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=show}}

|-

|time=full

|{{NYCS time 2|G|icon=nightsweekends|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=full}}

|-

|time=text

|{{NYCS time 2|G|text=nights after 9:00 p.m. and weekends|time=text}}

|}

--[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 20:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

:I'm really impressed by what I see. Sorry I was away as I wasn't near a computer for the week I wasn't here. However, I will be active on the weekends, especially on Saturdays. I will be updating the articles to the new format as I see on {{NYCS|V}}. That sid, I'll be getting started. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 12:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

== External links ==

* [http://www.brighton.ac.uk/designingbritain/html/lyons.html Designing Britain 1945 - 1975: Lyons Corner House]

* [http://www.kzwp.com/lyons/ J. Lyons & Co.: An illustrated history by Peter Bird 1887-1998]

* [http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/363col.htm The papers of John Simmons] relating to Lyons' computerization

* [http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ LEO Computers Society]

'''Comment'''. I really don't think it is a good idea to put large amount of text in the table, as what I see at [[V (New York City Subway service)]]. It increases the verbosity of the table, making one have to "read" it. I remember doing something like this last summer, which was incidentally frowned upon because of the same reason. So I think that what I did at [[1 (New York City Subway service)]] would work better. Look and see. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 14:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[[Category:Catering and food service companies of the United Kingdom]]

:It's nice though to be able to read the text, where space allows for it, rather than learning the symbols or mousing over them. The symbols don't quite work anyway in cases like the V, which runs weekdays only; from the perspective of a V rider, a weekdays-only service is equivalent to an all-times service. By the way, [[template:NYCS time2]] was a temporary template; [[template:NYCS time 2]] is the one demonstrated above. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 10:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

::I am definitely concerned about how the bus connection information would be kept up-to-date. Wikipedia is not a timetable, and bus routes (unlike train routes) are highly manipulable. Also, many of the individual station articles now have bus connections too, so that makes another thing that has to be changed in multiple places whenever there is new information. I don't really see the typical user relying on Wikipedia for bus connections, so I wouldn't put that information in multiple places that will tend to get outdated. Also, it is somewhat difficult to extract information from the table. Rather taking than a mere glance, one must actually read the table. It's far too wordy. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 08:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:::I agree with you about the bus connections; they should be on articles, but only the "special" ones - probably only the airport connections - should be on the line and service tables. I don't understand what you mean about not being able to glance at the table. On [[V (New York City Subway service)#Station listing]], you can simply look at the beginning of each line of text in the transfer column to immediately see all the connections. For instance, I scroll to Roosevelt Avenue, look to the right, and instantly pick out 7EFGR. Then if I want I can look a bit more to the right and see that the G and R are part-time. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

== Nice sources for IRT/BMT history ==

[[User:Eric B]] (who coincidentally is the author of [http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/carhistory.html Car History] and [http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html Line by Line History]) pointed me to some nice sources about past IRT and BMT history: [http://www.electricrailroaders.org/nydiv/] and [http://www.electricrailroaders.org/sprague/]. I think we can use these as references and reinstate all original service history sections that were removed. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 08:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

:The only major problem with the old history sections was that they were a copyright violation. These changes in services are attributable; whether or not we have reliable sources at hand, or need to go through newspaper archives, or cite official maps before and after the change, sources do exist. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 10:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

== Remove endashes from article titles ==

According to [[WP:NC#Special characters]], the endashes (–) need to be removed from the station article titles and replaced with hyphens (-). All articles originally had hyphens, but they were changed to endashes, and now they need to be changed back. Some of them have been changed back, but there are many more to go. I've started to do some myself, but there are way too many, and I think we may need a bot for this. –[[User:Crashintome4196|Crashintome4196]] 07:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

:I myself am most active on Wikipedia on weekends/Saturdays, so I will try to take care of the moves as much as I can. Unless there are some controversial cases, we should leave that to [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 09:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

::Unfortunately, except for Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line stations, the dashes are most likely to be on the controversial cases :) --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

::By the way, please fix double redirects if you move any articles. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 09:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

== Station suffixes (e.g. (IRT/BMT/IND Line name)) ==

I've noticed that there are fewer station article names with their suffixes removed, courtesy of NE2. Rather than start an edit war where he assumes his ideas are "better", I've decided to bring it up myself to prevent things from getting out of control. What's best, to include it or not to include it? --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

: I would always include the division and line name unless the article is about a junction station. -- [[User:Cecropia|Cecropia]] 21:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:We should [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision)|be precise when necessary]]. Nothing else has the name "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center". --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 22:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

::As per Cecropia, I will start moving back the articles to the appropriate titles. PCH agrees too, according to an earlier thread. It's not feasible to assume there is only one station that uses that name. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 22:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

:::There '''is''' only one station with the name "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center". What else could have that name? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 00:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::::There are other stations that share 50th Street. 47th through 50ths is one of them. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 07:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::That's not what I asked. What's ambiguous about "47th-50th Streets-Rockefeller Center"? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 07:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::Just because the guidelines give advice on what to do, doesn't mean it ''has'' to be done. (Consider [[WP:IAR]]. Not all of the rules should be used for editing WP, mostly guidelines. They just give tips.) Yet, you still persist on making the changes, when we, the people of this project objected to changing the name, yet you go on and do whatever you want. Who do you think you are, the owner of this project, dictator, who should always have your way? No. You may have made a lot of contributions to the project, but that doesn't mean you should start dictating how things should be done. Continue [[Meta:Don't be a dick|your behavior]] here and it will be taken accordingly. Consider that a warning, NE2. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 10:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::::You should not call others dicks. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 19:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Most articles about railway/subway stations are expected to have a disambiguator. This is what I tried to say before. Unless the name is so obvious that it is a station or transportation complex ([[Grand Central Terminal]], [[Frankford Transportation Center]]), removing the disambiguator will lead to the inconsistency of some stations having the disambiguator and some without. Few people complain that the disambiguator is extraneous.

What about the following articles?

*[[JFK/UMass (MBTA station)]]

*[[54/Cermak (CTA)]]

*[[Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (Washington Metro)]]

*[[7th St/Metro Center (LACMTA station)]]

*[[15-16th & Locust (PATCO station)]]

These articles are by choice disambiguated to their respective transit systems. Do you suggest the disambiguators for these should be removed as well? (Don't go changing those articles based on my suggestion!)

I oppose the removal of disambiguators for NYC Subway articles. "(New York City Subway)" should also be restored to articles that indicate a street intersection. I am aware of guidelines, and I would ignore the rules here.

However, people have been passionate about precision. From [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)]] : there was a heated debate whether TV series episodes need to be disambiguated (e.g. [[Unfriendly Skies (CSI episode)]] versus [[Unfriendly Skies]]). Through ''arbitration'', it was decided to disambiguate when necessary; therefore, the latter name in the example is the current title. Do I think that is analogous to this station situation? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I lean towards no. And I certainly don't want to go to arbitration to determine consensus. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 12:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:Consider me on it. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 13:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:On the other hand, [[42nd Street Shuttle]], not [[42nd Street Shuttle (New York City Subway)]], and [[South Station (Boston)]], not [[South Station (MBTA station)]]. Naming is inconsistent, but it's useful to use the guidelines to decide. In any case, I don't see this as a major issue; if these are moved back to "(New York City Subway)", I don't really have a problem with it. The problem of common names versus schedule names is much more important. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::Names of services are not as ambiguous as names of stations. As far as South Station is concerned, it is not only a commuter rail station and a subway station, it is also an Amtrak station and an intercity bus terminal, and the article combines all of those modes, so the (MBTA station) doesn't make sense there. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 03:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have news for you, NE2. If you don't want to be called a dick, '''stop''' acting like one. If people didn't act as such, we wouldn't need any other policies. That said, just about every page you moved will have its original title reinstated, except your credibility will be damaged. I suggest you learn to work with others instead of acting [[WP:BOLD#… but don't be reckless.|reckless]]. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 00:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

:That's not what [[Wikipedia:no personal attacks|no personal attacks]] says. Anyway, I don't think [[Grand Army Plaza (IRT Eastern Parkway Line)|Grand Army Plaza]] will be moved back. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

::Whatever. You just think so because it is not the "so-called" common name. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 21:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== Bullets in infoboxes? ==

[[User:Geoking66|Geoking66]] placed bullets in some station infoboxes, like in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=23rd_Street_%28IND_Sixth_Avenue_Line%29&oldid=130184936]. I reverted, since this is one more thing that needs to be changed when the TA changes services. However, this can be done automatically with a simple change to [[template:NYCS time 2]] and [[template:infobox NYCS]]. Do you think this is a good idea? --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:For me, the bullets are decorative, more than anything. They are not essential to convey information. I like Geoking66's format, but I doubt whether it is necessary, and I lean towards no. If anything, don't change [[Template:NYCS time 2]] to replace service links with bullets. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 12:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::Agreed. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 12:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::It wouldn't be a replacement, but an additional mode. Everything else about the output would be exactly the same as it is now; all that would be added is a new line to supplement the existing links. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 19:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

:::If you want to add a parameter, feel free to do so. But when would the parameter be called (i.e. when and where would the bullets show up)? [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 03:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::It would be another option in NYCS time 2, so you could say <nowiki>{{NYCS time 2|...|time=bullets}} or {{NYCS Lexington|...|time=bullets}}</nowiki>. Then the infobox code would be modified to include that below the station name. --[[User:NE2|NE2]] 06:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:::::So you support Geoking66's format then? Well, I still think it's over the top, but it's not harmful. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 07:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::I don't have any real opinion; I'm just pointing out that if people want it it's easy to do. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 07:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

== [[Template:Infobox Station]] ==

Should we use [[Template:Infobox Station]] to replace commuter rail station infoboxes such as [[Template:Infobox LIRR]]? See [[Hempstead (LIRR station)]] and [[Hicksville (LIRR station)]] for the generic infoboxes (and compare with [[Babylon (LIRR station)]]). [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 04:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

:Seeing that {{Tl|Infobox Station}} shows more information, I like the idea of using that one better. Plus, we also have to fix all the Metro-North infoboxes, as some don't have them. I haven't seen much done to those articles. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 22:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

::It seems that Hempstead and Hicksville have too much information in the infoboxes. Of course that doesn't mean we have to include that information. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 01:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:::But all that information is seemingly important than the current contents at other pages. I think they should be changed and added. And don';t bother editing the LIRR infobox to fix the parameters to make them match, it would be redundant. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 01:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

== Table at [[V (New York City Subway service)]] ==

This is a continuation from a discussion above at [[Wikipedia:{{BASEPAGENAME}}#Notes about new time template]].

The subway transfers at {{NYCS|V}} are listed in a highly verbose way. For instance, this:

* {{NYCS Lexington|time=text}}

versus this:

* {{NYCS Lexington|time=show}}

The table at {{NYCS|V}} is far more bloated than the one at {{NYCS|1}}. Look at the tables from the MTA website. They are not at all hard to use. A proposal was made back in November to use a very similar format to theirs. They use icons in place of long verbiage in the style of "all times except late nights (12:00 midnight-6:00 a.m.)". However, they do omit time information and simply list services.

Also, coming to think of it, putting bus connections in the subway articles themselves isn't the best solution either. Wikipedia is hardly the go-to source for travel information in New York City, so it is not terribly important to include complete bus connection information. --[[User:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|talk]] <small>•</small> [[Special:Contributions/{{{User|Imdanumber1}}}|contribs]]) 02:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

:If you go to the MTA's [http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/bline.htm B table], the V is shown as part-time. But the V runs whenever the B runs, so this is misleading. If we can do better than the MTA, we should.

:We have articles about many of the bus routes and lists of the others. It makes sense to link the stations to them. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 03:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)