Talk:Extermination camp and Democracy: Difference between pages

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{{otheruses}}
== Meaning of ''Vernichtung'' ==
{{Democracy}}
'''Democracy''' (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek ''demos,'' "people", and ''kratos,'' "rule"<ref>[http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-9273962 Democracy:Britannica Student Encyclopedia]</ref>) is a [[List of forms of government|form of government]]. While the term ''democracy'' is typically used in the context of a political [[state]], the principles are also applicable to other groups and organizations.
 
== Forms of democracy ==
I'm no expert on [[German language]], but so much have I learned, that I believe the following sentence is quite unluckily worded:
{{Forms of government}}
:''The [[German language|German]] term ''Vernichtung'' (literally meaning "elimination") is a [[euphemism]] for killing; hence these camps are also known as [[death camps]].''
{{Main|Democracy (varieties)}}
''Vernichtung'' is hardly an euphemism, and literally I would think that it rather means "making into nothing" or "...into dust" or something similar.
 
=== Representative ===
I have no other particular interests in this article. It's on my watchlist, although I don't remember why any more, and that's how I came to notice the last change. /[[User:Tuomas|Tuomas]] 01:21, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 
[[Representative democracy]] involves the selection of government officials by a majority vote of the people. Representatives may be elected by a particular district (or [[constituency]]), or represent the electorate as a whole as in many [[Proportional representation|proportional]] systems, with some using a combination of the two. Some representative democracies also incorporate elements of direct democracy, such as [[referenda]]. A characteristic of representative democracy is that while the representatives are elected by the people, to act in their interest, they retain the freedom to exercise their own judgment as how best to do so.
It literally means "making into nothing" (''nicht''). Any term used to refer to killing other that "killing" is a euphemism. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 04:15, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
: It is not. ''Extermination'' is a purpose, ''killing'' is a means. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 04:34, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:Also, I would strongly discourage to treat German compound words "literally". For example, "Hochzeit" is literally "High time". Many think it is not. :-) [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 04:40, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 
==== Liberal Democracy ====
And I would strongly discourage you from editing articles on points of English usage when your English is not adequate for the task. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:Point taken. But could you be more specific in this case? If you are referring to the "euphemism" issue, it is not language-related. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 03:40, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 
[[Liberal democracy]] is a representative democracy along with the protection of minorities, the [[rule of law]], a [[separation of powers]], and protection of [[liberties]] (thus the name ''liberal'') of speech, assembly, religion, and property. Conversely, an [[illiberal democracy]] is one where the protections that form a liberal democracy are either nonexistent, or not enforced.
''The German term Vernichtung (literally meaning "elimination") is a euphemism for killing; hence these camps are also known as death camps.''
 
=== Direct Democracy===
First, vernichtung is "extermination", ''not'' "elimination", hence second explanation is spurios.
 
[[Direct democracy]] is a political system where the citizens vote on major policy decisions. All direct democracies to date have been weak forms, relatively small communities, usually [[city-state]]s. However, some see the extensive use of [[referenda]], as in [[California]], as akin to direct democracy in a very large polity with more than 20 million potential voters.<ref>John M. Allswang. ''The Initiative and Referendum in California, 1898-1998'' (2000) (ISBN 0-8047-3821-1) </ref>
Second, it is euphemism only in your brain: Nazis called them exactly according to the purpose: extermination of jews. Killing is a too wide term. One may kill for food (Do we call "hunting" euphemism for "killing"?). One may kill to punish (Is "capital punishment" euphemism for killing?). But Nazis were killing them to ''exterminate'' no euphemis, no need to look for any other word play. You are not writing a poem or a pun here.
 
=== Socialist Democracy===
Third, there is no logic: the conjunction "hense" would be valid if the camps were named "kiling camps". For the previous edits I apologize. I was't thinking much. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 18:17, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[[Socialism]] has several different views on democracy. [[Social democracy]], [[democratic socialism]], [[Soviet democracy]], and the [[dictatorship of the proletariat]] are some examples.
 
=== Anarchist Democracy ===
:WHERE exactly is the word Vernichtung (or Vernichtungslager) found in any Nazi documents? I sincerely doubt it ever was used until the Nuremberg trials. Moreover, I doubt anyone today can source the origin. Most of this article is sheer fantasy. Go ahead, make my day and try to provide authorities on the subject. You'll find it's not an easy task.{{unsigned|69.109.173.165}}
Some [[Anarchism|anarchists]] oppose democracy while others favor it. [[Pierre-Joseph Proudhon]] argued that the only acceptable form of direct democracy is one in which it is recognized that majority decisions are not binding on the minority, even when unanimous.<ref>Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. ''General Idea of the Revolution'' See also commentary by [[Robert Graham|Graham, Robert]]. [http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/ANARCHIST_ARCHIVES/proudhon/grahamproudhon.html ''The General Idea of Proudhon's Revolution'']</ref> However, [[anarcho-communist]] [[Murray Bookchin]] criticized [[individualist anarchists]] for opposing democracy<ref>Bookchin, Murray. Communalism: The Democratic Dimensions of Social Anarchism. Anarchism, Marxism and the Future of the Left: Interviews and Essays, 1993-1998, AK Press 1999, p. 155</ref>, and says "majority rule" is consistent with anarchism.<ref>Bookchin, Murray. [http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bookchin/soclife.html Social Anarchism or Lifestyle Anarchism: An Unbridgeable Chasm]</ref>
There are also some anarchists who expect society to operate by [[consensus]].{{Fact|date=May 2007}} Some anarcho-communists oppose the majoritarian nature of democracy, feeling that it can impede individual liberty and opt in favor of a non-majoritarian form of consensus.<ref>Graeber, David and Grubacic, Andrej. ''Anarchism, Or The Revolutionary Movement Of The Twenty-first Century''</ref>
 
=== Sortition ===
::It's well known that the Nazis used euphemisms such as sonderbehandlung - 'special treatment' - and such like, and the article does not assert that 'vernichtungslager' was a term ''used by them''. However, if you think that the article is 'sheer fantasy' then you are simply wrong. The number of history books on the holocaust is huge, and you should have no trouble in familiarising yourself with the subject. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 16:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[[Sortition]] (or Allotment) has formed the basis of systems randomly selecting officers from the population. [http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9068768/sortition]
 
=== Tribal Democracy ===
:Why has the number of exterminations at Auschwitz been revised downward from Hoess's confessed 3 million to, now, 1.1 million? {{unsigned|69.109.176.200}}
Certain [[tribe]]s such as the [[bushmen]] organized themselves using different forms of participatory democracy or consensus democracy. [http://law.cua.edu/ComparativeLaw/Iroquois/]
 
=== Consensus Democracy===
::According to the [[Rudolf Hoess]] article, he denied it was as high as 2.5m. See also [[Examination_of_Holocaust_denial#Six_million_figure]]. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 08:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
[[Consensus democracy]] and [[deliberative democracy]] seek [[consensus]] among the people.<ref>Amy Gutmann & Dennis Thompson, ''Why Deliberative Democracy?''. 2004, Princeton University
Press. ISBN 0691120196[http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/7869.html]</ref>
 
== History ==
:One can hardly rely on wiki articles for anything to do with Nazi history; the majority of them are unsourced or poorly sourced. One can hardly rely on websites devoted to the issues; these mainly use secondary or tertiary sources. It is also not ''well known that the Nazis used euphemisms such as sonderbehandlung - 'special treatment' - and such like''. It is well asserted. Admittedly, all people, especially the military, use jargon to facilitate communication. The over-interpretation of it is faulty reasoning. Now, there is an interesting paragraph in Goebbels' diaries (March 1942) in which he states (according to David Irving):
{{main|History of democracy}}
[[Image:Claims Of Demoracy.png|right|350px|thumb|Since World War II, democracy has gained widespread acceptance. This map displays the official ''"claims"'' made by world governments with regard to democracy, as of [[June 2006]]. It shows the ''[[de jure]]'' status of democracy in the world.
 
{{legend|#0000FF|Governments that claim to be democratic}}
:''Beginning with Lublin the Jews are now being deported eastward from the General Government [occupied Poland]. The procedure is pretty barbaric and one that beggars description, and there's not much left of the Jews. Broadly speaking one can probably say that 60 percent of them will have to be liquidated, while only 40 percent can be put to work.''
 
{{legend|#FF0000|Governments that do not claim to be democratic.}}]]
:Pretty damning evidence, but it's only one paragraph out of thousands of pages of diaries that make no other mention of any liquidation policy. It would be impossible to base an entire history of the holocaust on it. "Code language" just seems untenable without any concrete evidence.
 
[[Image:Freedom House world map 2007.png|thumb|350px|This map reflects the findings of [[Freedom House]]'s survey [[Freedom in the World]] 2007, which reports the state of world freedom in 2006. It is one of the most widely used measures of democracy by researchers. [http://polisci.la.psu.edu/faculty/Casper/caspertufisPAweb.pdf]
::No one is basing the 'entire history of the Holocaust' on one para. There is a large amount of survivor testimony, accounts from those who liberated the camps or visited shortly afterward, the physical remains of some camps, human remains, interviews with surviving Nazis, etc. You discount that because...? --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 15:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 
{{legend|#219A57|Free.}} Freedom House considers these to be liberal democracies. [http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=35&year=2005]
:I never said anyone was basing the entire history of the Holocaust on one paragraph. I hope you're not purposely mischaracterizing my statements. My point is that no single piece of evidence is absolute. The 'codewords' are not absolute. The 'gas chambers' are not absolute. Nothing in history is absolute. A good historian reviews all the evidence and tries to arrive at the facts as best he or she can. Furthermore, you've got me boxed in as a holocaust denier when I am mainly trying to get people to analyze information rationally. You have no idea what I think because I don't know my own opinion as yet. I do have a brain, however, and I can discern glaring discrepancies and physical impossibilities which have long been asserted as absolute fact and truth.
 
{{legend|#FFC27B|Partly Free}}
:For example, with regard to the Goebbels quotation above, I see on a map that Lublin is east of Auschwitz, so to what ___location were the Jews being deported eastward?
 
{{legend|#B30000|Not Free}}]]
::[[Belzec]]. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 19:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 
[[Image:Freedom House Country Rankings 1972-2005.png|thumb|350px|This graph shows [[Freedom House]]'s evaluation of the number of nations in the different categories given above for the period for which there are surveys, [[1972]]-[[2005]]]]
:You assume that. Perhaps it's true. Saying it doesn't make it true. Belzec is southeast of Lubin, more south than east and rather close to Lubin by from Goebbels' distant standpoint. Belzec was not a work camp, so presumably the other 40% went somewhere else.
 
[[Image:Number of nations 1800-2003 scoring 8 or higher on Polity IV scale.png|thumb|right|350px|Number of nations [[1800]]-[[2003]] scoring 8 or higher on [[Polity IV]] scale, another widely used measure of democracy.]]
== "Concentration" or "Extermination" Nazi Camps? ==
''Moved here from [[Wikipedia:Village Pump]]''
 
[[Image:Democracyindex2.png|thumb|350px|Still another measure of democracy is [[The Economist]]'s [[Democracy Index]]. The palest blue countries get a score above 9, while the black countries score below 2.]]
Wikipedia has an article on the [[Auschwitz concentration camp]] and one on [[Treblinka extermination camp]]. There are is also a [[:Category:Nazi concentration camps]] and a [[:Category:Nazi extermination camps]]. The term "concentration camp", when referring to Nazi camps of the WWII, was originally a lie used to mislead the [[Holocaust]] victims, who were unaware of the regime's true intentions. Nowadays, it still serves as an [[euphemism]]. IMHO, extermination or ''death'' camp is the right word here. I strongly suggest that these articles should be renamed, and their categories merged into one, and that for the sake of historical awareness. -- [[User:Etz Haim|Etz Haim]] 04:03, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:I suggest you to read carefully the articles, for the sake of historical awareness. There were concentration, extermination, labor, training, and many other Nazi camps all over Europe. With German bureaucracy they were classified as such. Of course, we can rightfully claim that labor camps actually exterminated the laborers, but their purpose was still labor, see, e.g., [[Mittelbau-Dora]]. I also suggest you to read [[Auschwitz concentration camp]]. Actually, it was a camp complex that consisted of concentration and extermination camps.
:Also, I would suggest you to carry discussions on well-defined topics at the talk pages of the corresponding articles. Willage pump is for general-purpose discussions, not immediately related to specific articles. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 04:24, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:*Also*, we have a policy that you are supposed to pick the most common english names - in this case, "concentration camp" is by far the most common. So your suggestion goes against policy, and will probably be shot down on that account. [[User:Raul654|&rarr;Raul654]] 04:34, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
::The reason I posted this here is because this problem (from my POV) spans several articles and categories. And just to be fair and prevent possible misunderstandings, I'm not suggesting that everyone who is using the word "concentration camps" has ill intentions; on the contrary, many decent people use this unintentionally. Honestly, I value the victims' fates and the survivors' memories of these installations more than how the Nazi regime described them in their paperwork. I'm suggesting ''extermination'' camps on basis of these facilities' aftermath, not the Reich's alleged purposes of them. Regards. [[User:Etz Haim|Etz Haim]] 04:50, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:The article can set people straight for historical awareness, in case anyone has any doubt about what went on in these horrid places. However, most people call most of them ''concentration camps'' and look for references to them as such and will search for them as such; hence articles should be named as they are commonly called. This is not "unintentional"--that's what they're called. Second most common in my (limited) experience would be "death camp". Wikipedia's article titles are not the place to attempt to change the world's vocabulary. (And, incidentally, I suspect that most people automatically connect the phrase "Nazi concentration camp" with "genocide", so it's not like anyone's being misled by the terms. And for those people who stubbornly refuse to admit that the Nazis ever killed anyone--well, changing the article titles won't make a difference there, either.) [[User:Elf|Elf]] | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 05:32, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
: We should certainly have appropriate forwards from "concentration camp" and (if we stick with "extermination camp" for the title) "death camp". I do agree that "death camp" is more common in English than "extermination camp", and it's just a matter of translation (neither is "more correct" than the other), but I do believe it is important to distinguish the death camps from other concentration camps. The U.S. put Japanese Americans in what were essentially concentration camps, but had no death camps. The distinction is very important. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 21:58, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)
 
[[Image:Freedom House electoral democracies 2006.png|thumb|350px|Countries highlighted in <span style="color: #0f7198">'''blue'''</span> are designated "[[representative democracy|Electoral Democracies]]" in Freedom House's 2006 survey [http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/pdf/essay2006.pdf Freedom in the World].]]
I certainly agree that the article [[Auschwitz concentration camp]] should be renamed. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 
=== Ancient origins ===
Maintaining a NPOV becomes extremely difficult in such topics. As someone has said, history is written by the winners. We should not use POV terms that sugar coat the WWII U.S. Japanese internment camps, whatever they were called, or POV terms that denigrate the Nazi camps. Rather the titles should be as NPOV as possible and try to reflect common present, but within a NPOV, or better still, original usage. The facts should then be stated in the articles with any contention discussed. This is how I read the NPOV policy. If a camp was set up for the purpose of extermination (SOED definitions include "Total extirpation, total destruction" and this looks like a good translation of Vernichtungslager) then that should be the title. "Death Camp" is too simplistic as there was an entire "production line" mentality from arrival to cremation with anything of worth collected and recycled. It is also, by its simplicity, POV. If the term "Death Camp" is used (as it is in this article) then it would be helpful to say who uses this term and how it developed.
 
The word ''democracy'' was coined in [[ancient Greece]]. Although [[Athenian democracy]] is today considered by many to have been a form of direct democracy, originally it had two distinguishing features: firstly the allotment (selection by lot) of ordinary citizens to government offices and courts,<ref>Aristotle Book 6</ref> and secondarily the assembly of all the citizens. All the Athenian citizens were eligible to speak and vote in the Assembly, which set the laws of the city-state, but neither political rights, nor citizenship, were granted to [[women]], [[slaves]], or [[metics]]. Of the 250,000 inhabitants only some 30,000 on average were citizens. Of those 30,000 perhaps 5,000 might regularly attend one or more meetings of the popular Assembly. Most of the officers and magistrates of Athenian government were allotted; only the generals ([[strategoi]]) and a few other officers were elected. <!-- this link is incoherent, please fix <ref>Hansen (1999, 231&ndash;2).</ref>--><ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekdemocracy_01.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekdemocracy_01.shtml]</ref>
My understanding of the Nazi view of the "Jewish Problem" was that it was relatively unemotional and seen in much the same light as managing any public service or utility. For them it was a task that required attention and to which they applied "good old German efficiency". I believe this came out in the Nuremberg trials.
 
One of the earliest instances of civilizations with democracy, or sometimes disputed as [[oligarchy]], was found in the [[republic]]s of [[Kingdoms of Ancient India|ancient India]], which were established sometime before the [[6th century BC]], and prior to the birth of [[Gautama Buddha]]. These republics were known as [[Mahajanapadas|Maha Janapadas]], and among these states, [[Vaishali (ancient city)|Vaishali]] (in what is now [[Bihar]], [[India]]) would be the world's first republic. The democratic [[Sangha]], [[Gana]] and [[Panchayat]] systems were used in some of these republics; the Panchayat system is still used today in Indian villages. Later during the time of [[Alexander the Great]] in the [[4th century BC]], the [[Greeks]] wrote about the Sabarcae and Sambastai states in what is now [[Pakistan]] and [[Afghanistan]], whose "form of government was democratic and not regal" according to Greek scholars at the time.<ref>[http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/MUHLBERGER/HISTDEM/INDIADEM.HTM Democracy in Ancient India]. Steve Muhlberger, Associate Professor of History, [[Nipissing University]].</ref> <!-- hiding incoherent link, ISBN? <ref> The Age of Imperial Kannauj, History and Culture of Indian People, 1964, p 45, Dr R. C. Majumdar, Dr A. D. Pusalkar.</ref>-->
Having written all the above, it seems to me that this article is a bit thin on detail of what happened in the camps. One reference is given for a complex subject and the terms "war crime" or "crime" are not mentioned! This then led me to read a bit in Wikipedia on [[Nazi Germany]] and then [[Racial policy of Nazi Germany]]. These articles seem POV in that there is no explanation for WHY the Nuremberg Laws were enacted other than:
:Jews had been disliked for years before, and the Nazi Party used this anger to gain votes. The blame for poverty, unemployment, and the loss of World War I were all placed on the Jews. In 1933, persecution of the Jews became active Nazi policy, but laws were not as rigorously obeyed and were not as devastating as in later years.
There is no mention for instance of common German concerns about the numbers of Jews in key professions such as the law and in cultural fields. Such omissions are either ignorant or POV.
 
The [[Roman Republic]] had elections but again women, slaves, and the large foreign population were excluded. The votes of the wealthy were given more weight and almost all high officials come from a few noble families. [http://annourbis.com/Ancient-Rome/8rome10.html]
I am no expert in these areas, I am neither Jewish nor German. My exhortation is to let the facts speak for themselves and try to avoid a partisan view of the issue. Let us make things understandable. If we take a simplistic view of the past (e.g. the Nazis were evil and that's why they did it) then we will be less likely to notice creeping changes that lead in the same direction. For instance, it has been argued that some of the rhetoric in the "War on Terrorism" has similarities to that used in Nazi Germany but without an understanding of the background we will not know. --[[User:CloudSurfer|CloudSurfer]] 03:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 
Democracy was also seen to a certain extent in [[band society|bands]] and [[tribe]]s such as the [[Iroquois Confederacy]]. However, in the Iroquois Confederacy only the males of certain clans could be leaders and some clans were excluded. Only the oldest females from the same clans could choose and remove the leaders. This excluded most of the population. An interesting detail is that there should be consensus among the leaders, not majority support decided by [[voting]], when making decisions.[http://www.iroquoisdemocracy.pdx.edu/html/activity4.htm] [http://scholar.google.se/url?sa=U&q=http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~rousseau/IRO.PDF] [[Band societies]], such as the [[bushmen]], which usually number 20-50 people in the band often do not have leaders and make decisions based on consensus among the majority.
=== Aren't extermination camps concentration camps? Were communists and homosexuals not sent there? ===
 
=== Middle Ages ===
I'm wondering about the sentence "Extermination camps should be distinguished from concentration camps (such as Dachau and Belsen)". My understanding was that extermination camps were specialized concentration camps. Maybe inserting the word "other" after "from" can help. But my concern goes further. This whole long sentence describes what extermination camps are supposedly ''not''. It sounds as if communists and homosexuals were not put in extermination camps. If this is a historic fact, then it should be mentioned explicitly. If not, it should be purged.<br>[[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 17:52, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)
During the [[Middle Ages]], there were various systems involving elections or assemblies, although often only involving a minority of the population, such as the election of [[Gopala (Pala king)|Gopala]] in [[Bengal]], the [[Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth]], the [[Althing]] in [[Iceland]], certain [[medieval Italy|medieval Italian]] city-states such as [[Venice]], the [[tuatha]] system in early medieval [[Ireland]], the [[Veche]] in [[Slavic peoples|Slavic]] countries, [[Scandinavia]]n [[Thing (assembly)|Things]] and the autonomous merchant city of [[Sakai, Osaka|Sakai]] in the 16th century in Japan. However, participation were often restricted to a minority, and so may be better classified as [[oligarchy]]. Most regions during the middle-ages were ruled by clergy or feudal lords.
:I'm not aware of communists or homosexuals being systematically sent to extermination camps. The survival rate for homosexuals sent to concentration camps was about 50% (see [[Paragraph 175]]). -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 03:01, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)
 
The [[Parliament of England]] had its roots in the restrictions on the power of kings written into [[Magna Carta]]. The first elected parliament was [[De Montfort's Parliament]] in England in 1265. However only a small minority actually had a voice; Parliament was elected by only a few percent of the population (less than 3% in 1780. [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/struggle_democracy/getting_vote.htm]), and the system had problematic features such as [[rotten boroughs]]. The power to call parliament was at the pleasure of the monarch (usually when he or she needed funds). After the [[Glorious Revolution]] of 1688, the [[English Bill of Rights]] was enacted in [[1689]], which codified certain rights and increased the influence of the Parliament. [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/rise_parliament/making_history_rise.htm] The franchise was slowly increased and the Parliament gradually gained more power until the monarch became entirely a figurehead. [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/struggle_democracy/getting_vote.htm]
== Amos Oz quote ==
 
=== 18th and 19th centuries ===
There is a passage in David Remnick's "[http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?041108fa_fact The Spirit Level]", a recent ''[[The New Yorker|New Yorker]]''article about Amos Oz (November 8, 2004, 82-95) that may be of some interest here; it's only anecdotal though, so I doubt it would be appropriate to cite in the article. Oz is trying to express how hard it was for anyone to believe the stories of death camps while they were happening. He is quoted talking about a witness at the Eichmann trial who, against the usual pattern, went from Ravensbr&uuml;ck to Auschwitz to Theresienstadt. Oz talks about how in Theresienstadt her stories about Auschwitz were not believed. Oz ends the story, "So: how could people in Jerusalem or New York believe something that even the inmates of Theresienstadt refused to believe? Knowing is one thing. Believing another. Understanding another." -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 23:21, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
 
Although not described as a democracy by the [[founding fathers]], the [[United States]] can be seen as the first liberal democracy.[http://www.oxonianreview.org/issues/2-2/2-2-6.htm] The [[United States Constitution]], adopted in 1788, provided for an elected government and protected civil rights and liberties. Already in the colonial period before 1776 most adult white men could vote; there were still property requirements but most men owned their own farms and could pass the tests. Enslaved Africans, free Blacks and women were not extended the franchise. On the [[Frontier Thesis|American frontier]], democracy became a way of life, with widespread social, economic and political equality.<ref>Ray Allen Billington, ''America's Frontier Heritage'' (1974) 117-158. ISBN 0826303102 </ref> However the frontier did not produce much democracy in [[Canada]], [[Australia]] or [[Russia]]. By 1840s almost all property restrictions were ended and nearly all white adult male citizens could vote; and turnout averaged 60-80% in frequent elections for local, state and national officials. The system gradually evolved, from [[Jeffersonian Democracy]] to [[Jacksonian Democracy]] and beyond. In [[Reconstruction]] after the Civil War (late 1860s) the newly freed slaves became citizens with (in the case of men) the right to vote.
== Anonymous contribution ==
 
In 1789, [[Revolutionary France]] adopted the [[Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen]] and, although short-lived, the [[National Convention]] was elected by all males. [http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/rev892.html]
[[User:67.170.131.107]] keeps adding the following material after the first paragraph:
<blockquote>the DEATH CAMPS. Also know as Extermination camps from the Nazi’s. They were just as horrible as the concentration camps. A death camp is where the prisoners are to die or be killed. When the babies, children, adult or elderly got there they were sometimes shot, worked until they dies, or they would starve and than be shot. Sometimes they would just starve to death. Most Jews were killed through being worked to death. Death camps were designed especially for mass murdering. Death camps were known as death camps because there were a lot of deaths. the dreaded and horrific CONCOTRATION CAMP’S. At the beginning of the concentration camps, they were used just to hold Political prisoners, criminals and security risks. Now they are also used for Jewish people and Polish. A concentration camp is where the civilians who were against Hitler, political prisoners and of course prisoners of war are detained and confined under harsh conditions. The people that were there were starved, shot, beaten, caught sicknesses, or they were worked to death. Some concentration camps were built out in the middle of the forest’s where nobody knew about them. The Nazi’s would leave them there and let them starve. The acted the same to the children, babies, adults and elderly. They didn’t have sympathy for the young or old or anything in between. </blockquote>
I have removed this because it basically duplicates the information that is already present in the article. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel]] ("<font color="#ba0000"><u>Sarah</u></font>") 02:03, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 
Liberal democracies were few and often short-lived before the late nineteenth century. Various nations and territories have claimed to be the first with [[universal suffrage]].
== I seem to remember that the Nazis were anti-Semites ==
 
=== 20th Century ===
Recent edits by [[User:JonGwynne]] generally downplay the role of Jews as the main victims of the extermination camps. I'm remarking this, rather than editing at this time: I haven't read this article closely, but the nature of his edits seems clear.
 
20th century transitions to liberal democracy have come in successive "waves of democracy," variously resulting from wars, revolutions, [[decolonization]], and economic circumstances. [[World War I]] and the dissolution of the [[Ottoman empire|Ottoman]] and [[Austria-Hungary|Austro-Hungarian]] empires resulted in the creation of new nation-states in Europe, most of them nominally democratic. In the 1920s democracy flourished, but the [[Great Depression]] brought disenchantment, and most the countries of Europe, Latin America, and Asia turned to strong-man rule or dictatorships. [[Fascism]] and dictatorships flourished in [[Nazi Germany]], Italy, Spain and Portugal, as well as nondemocratic regimes in Poland, the Baltics, the Balkans, Brazil, Cuba, China, and Japan, among others. Together with Stalin's regime in the [[Soviet Union]], these made the 1930s the "Age of Dictators" [http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:jCe2MTKLhzAJ:www.snl.depaul.edu/contents/current/syllabi/HC_314.doc+Stalin+1930%27s+%22Age+of+Dictators%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&lr=lang_en].
While I agree that certain other groups -- notably homosexuals and the Roma -- were targetted to a degree roughly comparable to Jews, I gather from most of the history I've read that the extermination camps (as against concentration camps in general) were a direct result of the decision on the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem: the decision to exterminate the Jews. Thus, this downplaying seems wrong to me.
 
[[World War II]] brought a definitive reversal of this trend in western Europe. The successful democratization of the [[Allied Control Council|American, British, and French sectors of occupied Germany]], Austria, Italy, and the [[occupied Japan]] served as a model for the later theory of [[regime change]]. However, most of [[Eastern Europe]], including the [[German Democratic Republic|Soviet sector of Germany]] was forced into the non-democratic [[Soviet bloc]]. The war was followed by [[decolonization]], and again most of the new independent states had nominally democratic constitutions. In the decades following World War II, most western democratic nations had [[mixed economy|mixed economies]] and developed a [[welfare state]], reflecting a general consensus among their electorates and political parties. In the 1950s and 1960s, economic growth was high in both the western and [[communism|Communist]] countries; it later declined in the state-controlled economies. By 1960, the vast majority of nation-states were nominally democracies, although the majority of the world's populations lived in nations that experienced sham elections, and other forms of subterfuge (particularly in Communist nations and the former colonies.)
Would someone who has been more involved in this article please have a look at this? Thanks. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 05:59, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
 
A subsequent wave of [[democratization]] brought substantial gains toward true liberal democracy for many nations. Spain, Portugal, and several of the military dictatorships in [[South America]] became democratic in the late 1970s and early 1980s. This was followed by nations in [[East Asia|East]] and [[South Asia]] by the mid- to late 1980s. Economic malaise in the 1980s, along with resentment of communist oppression, contributed to the [[History of the Soviet Union (1985-1991)|collapse of the Soviet Union]], the associated end of the [[Cold War]], and the democratization and [[liberalization]] of the former [[Eastern bloc]] countries. The most successful of the new democracies were those geographically and culturally closest to western Europe, and they are now members or candidate members of the [[European Union]]. The liberal trend spread to some nations in [[Africa]] in the 1990s, most prominently in [[South Africa]]. Some recent examples include the [[Indonesian Revolution of 1998]], the [[5th October Overthrow|Bulldozer Revolution]] in [[Yugoslavia]], the [[Rose Revolution]] in [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], the [[Orange Revolution]] in [[Ukraine]], the [[Cedar Revolution]] in [[Lebanon]], and the [[Tulip Revolution]] in [[Kyrgyzstan]].
:I agree; the focus of the extermination camps (and indeed, of Hitler) was the Jews. I've restored the more accurate version. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 15:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 
The number of liberal democracies currently stands at an all-time high and has been growing without interruption for some time. As such, it has been speculated that this trend may continue in the future to the point where liberal democratic nation-states become the universal standard form of human [[society]]. This prediction forms the core of [[Francis Fukayama]]'s "[[The End of History and the Last Man|End of History]]" theory.
== Possible overstatement ==
 
== Theory ==
Recently added: "the only prisoners sent to these camps not immediately murdered were those used as slave labor directly concerning the extermination process (e.g. to remove the corpses from the gas chambers)." Offhand, I don't think that's correct, though I lack citations. I believe that there were slave labor factories connected to several of these camps, and that starvation rations made these also a form of death sentence, but less immediate. Does someone have a citation one way or another on this? -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] July 3, 2005 17:17 (UTC)
=== Aristotle ===
* This has now been clarified by the statement about Auschwitz II being different from the others; that is probably what I was thinking of. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] July 7, 2005 21:47 (UTC)
[[Aristotle]] contrasted rule by the many (democracy/[[polity]]), with rule by the few ([[oligarchy]]/[[aristocracy]]), and with rule by a single person ([[tyranny]]/[[monarchy]] or today [[autocracy]]). He also thought that there was a good and a bad variant of each system (he considered democracy to be the degenerate counterpart to polity). [http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/y6704.html] [http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aristotl.htm].
 
=== "death camp"Conceptions ===
Among political theorists, there are many contending conceptions of democracy.
* ''Aggregative democracy'' uses democratic processes to solicit citizens’ preferences and then aggregate them together to determine what social policies society should adopt. Therefore, proponents of this view hold that democratic participation should primarily focus on [[voting]], where the policy with the most votes gets implemented. There are different variants of this: 4
** Under ''minimalism'', democracy is a system of government in which citizens give teams of political leaders the right to rule in periodic elections. According to this minimalist conception, citizens cannot and should not “rule” because, for example, on most issues, most of the time, they have no clear views or their views are not well-founded. [[Joseph Schumpeter]] articulated this view most famously in his book ''Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy'' <ref>[[Joseph Schumpeter]], (1950). ''Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy''. Harper Perennial. ISBN 0-06-133008-6.</ref>. Contemporary proponents of minimalism include [[William H. Riker]], [[Adam Przeworski]], [[Richard Posner]].
** [[Direct democracy]], on the other hand, holds that citizens should participate directly, not through their representatives, in making laws and policies. Proponents of direct democracy offer varied reasons to support this view. Political activity can be valuable in itself, it socializes and educates citizens, and popular participation can check powerful elites. Most importantly, citizens do not really rule themselves unless they directly decide laws and policies.
** Government should produce laws and policies that are close to the views of the median voter &mdash; with half to his left and the other half to his right. [[Anthony Downs]] laid out this view in his 1957 book ''An Economic Theory of Democracy''.<ref>[[Anthony Downs]], (1957). ''An Economic Theory of Democracy''. Harpercollins College. ISBN 0-06-041750-1.</ref>
** [[Robert A. Dahl]] argues that the fundamental democratic principle is that, when it comes to binding collective decisions, each person in a political community is entitled to have his/her interests be given equal consideration (not necessarily that all people are equally satisfied by the collective decision). He uses the term [[polyarchy]] to refer to societies in which there exists a certain set of institutions and procedures which are perceived as leading to such democracy. First and foremost among these institutions is the regular occurrence of free and open [[elections]] which are used to select representatives who then manage all or most of the public policy of the society. However, these polyarchic procedures may not create a full democracy if, for example, poverty prevents political participation.<ref>[[Robert A. Dahl|Dahl, Robert]], (1989). ''Democracy and its Critics.'' New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 0300049382</ref> Some see a problem with the wealthy having more influence and therefore argue for reforms like [[campaign finance reform]]. Some may see it as a problem that the majority of the voters decide policy, as opposed to majority rule of the entire population. This can be used as an argument for making political participation mandatory, like compulsory [[voting]] <!-- hiding, need info about publisher of this article, please fix <ref>[http://www.apsanet.org/imgtest/verba.pdf]</ref>--> or for making it more patient (non-compulsory) by simply refusing power to the government until the full majority feels inclined to speak their minds.
* ''[[Deliberative democracy]]'' is based on the notion that democracy is government by discussion. Deliberative democrats contend that laws and policies should be based upon reasons that all citizens can accept. The political arena should be one in which leaders and citizens make arguments, listen, and change their minds.
* ''[[Radical democracy]]'' is based on the idea that there are hierarchical and oppressive power relations that exist in society. Democracy's role is to make visible and challenge those relations by allowing for difference, dissent and antagonisms in decision making processes.
* ''[[Minoritarianism]] '' is a [[political philosophy]] where various minorities are given some degree of [[minority rule]].
 
=== "Democracy" and "Republic" ===
A recent edit links this to a vaccuous stub "[[death camp]]". I suggest that unless someone has something to add there that is ''not'' about the Nazi extermination camps, we revert, and change that article to be a redirect to this one. I could imagine 2 useful articles, one specifically on Nazi death/extermination camps and a broader one including also any others in history, but I don't think this pair of titles even suggests that distinction. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 18:07, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
In historical usages and especially when considering the works of the [[Founding Fathers of the United States]], the word "democracy" refers solely to [[direct democracy]], while a [[representative democracy]] where representatives of the people are elected and whose power to govern is limited by [[laws]] enshrined in a [[constitution]] is referred to as a [[constitutional republic]]. Note that the US constitution states that the power comes from the people "We the people..." However, some argue that unlike a [[Direct democracy|pure democracy]], in a constitutional republic, citizens in the US are not governed by the majority of the people but by the rule of law.<ref>Levinson, Sanford. ''Constitutional Faith''. Princeton University Press, 1989, p. 60 ISBN 0691023212</ref> Constitutional Republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the threat of [[mobocracy]] thereby protecting [[minority]] groups from the [[tyranny of the majority]] by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population. [[Thomas Jefferson]] stated that majority rights cannot exist if individual rights do not.<ref>Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393
</ref> The power of the majority of the people is ''checked'' by limiting that power to electing representatives who govern within limits of overarching constitutional law rather than the popular vote or government having power to deny any [[inalienable right]]<ref>Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1797. ME 9:422 </ref>. Moreover, the power of elected representatives is also checked by prohibitions against any single individual having legislative, judicial, and executive powers so that basic constitutional law is extremely difficult to change. [[John Adams]] defined a constitutional republic as "a government of laws, and not of men."<!-- hiding bad ref, year appears wrong, please verify and fix <ref>Levinson, Sanford. ''Constitutional Faith''. Princeton University Press, 1989, p. 60</ref>-->
 
The original framers of the [[United States Constitution]] were notably [[wikt:cognizant|cognizant]] of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom and [[liberty]] of the individual. For example, [[James Madison]], in [[Federalist Papers|Federalist Paper No. 10]], advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy to protect the individual from the majority. <ref>James Madison, ([[November 22]], [[1787]]). [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers/No._10 "The Same Subject Continued: The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection"], ''Daily Advertiser''. [[New York]]. Republished by [[Wikisource]].</ref> The framers carefully created the institutions within the Constitution and the [[United States Bill of Rights]]. They kept what they believed were the best elements of majority rule. But they were mitigated by a constitution with protections for individual liberty, a [[separation of powers]], and a layered federal structure. [[Inalienable rights]] refers to a set of human rights that are not awarded by human power, and cannot be surrendered.<ref>Declaration of US Independence http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html></ref> The [[Constitution of the United States]] was written to protect the [[inalienable rights]] of citizens from potential excesses of government, even if taken by [[majority rule]]. Inalienable rights are not granted by government, but by nature.<ref>Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:441</ref>
== "The Polish" ==
 
Using the term "democracy" to refer solely to direct democracy, or to representative democracy without checks on the power of elected officials, retains some popularity in United States [[American conservatism|conservative]] and [[Libertarian Party (United States)|libertarian]] circles.
I find the current phrase "&hellip;disputes between the Jewish organisations and the Polish&hellip;" very problematic. Surely "the Polish" are not all of one mind in this matter. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 18:30, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 
In contemporary western usage, the term "democracy" usually refers to a government chosen by the people, whether it is direct or representative. [http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/democracy] The term "[[republic]]" has many different meanings but today often refers to a representative democracy with an elected [[head of state]], such as a [[President]], serving for a limited term, in contrast to states with a hereditary [[monarch]] as a head of state, even if these states also are representative democracies with an elected [[head of government]] such as a [[Prime Minister]].Therefore, today the term is used by states which are quite different from the earlier use of the term, such as the the former [[German Democratic Republic]] and the [[USSR]].
== Merge ==
 
[[Republicanism]] and [[Liberalism]] have complex relationships to democracy and republic. See these articles for more details.
[[Death camp]] is just another term for Extermination Camp. 10:00, 18 November 2005
 
=== Constitutional monarchs and upper chambers ===
 
Initially after the American and French revolutions the question was open whether a democracy, in order to restrain unchecked majority rule, should have an elitist [[upper chamber]], the members perhaps appointed meritorious experts or having lifetime tenures, or should have a [[constitutional monarch]] with limited but real powers. Some countries (as Britain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Scandinavian countries and Japan) turned powerful monarchs into constitutional monarchs with limited or, often gradually, merely symbolic roles. Often the monarchy was abolished along with the aristocratic system (as in the U.S., France, China, Russia, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Greece and Egypt). Many nations had elite upper houses of legislatures which often had lifetime tenure, but eventually these senates lost power (as in Britain) or else became elective and remained powerful (as in the United States).
== Majdanek concentration camp ==
 
== Democracy Within International Associations of Nations ==
Tomasz Kranz, Director of the Research Department of the State Museum at Majdanek, has released revised death numbers for Majdanek totalling 78,000. The article and tallies have been updated accordingly.
===The European Parliament===
"The European Parliament is the only supranational institution whose members are democratically elected by direct universal suffrage. It represents the people of the Member States."<ref>How Parliament is organised. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/parliament/public/staticDisplay.do?id=45&language=en</ref>
===North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)===
NATO presently practices a form of [[Consensus democracy]] "All NATO decisions are made by consensus, after discussion and consultation among member countries." "Consensus has been accepted as the sole basis for decision-making in NATO since the creation of the Alliance in 1949. This principle remains in place."<ref>NATO Topics. http://www.nato.int/issues/consensus/index.html</ref> NATO is the international example of an actual consensus democracy of longest tenure.
 
== Arguments for and against ==
see http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/new/index.php?tryb=news_big&language=EN&id=879
For criticisms of and arguments for specific forms of democracy, see the appropriate article. Advantages and disadvantages of one form of democracy do not necessarily apply to other forms. Some [[far right]], [[far left]], [[theocracy|theocratic]], [[anarchist]], and [[monarchism|monarchist]] groups oppose all forms of democracy.
 
== Beyond the public level ==
[[User:ef3ca|ef3ca]] 07:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 
While this article deals mainly with democracy as a system to rule countries, voting and representation have been used to govern many other kinds of communities and organizations.
:I am not sure how definitive this is, until someone else reviews it, from the article: "The second figure, of 235,000, comes from a 1992 article by Dr. Czesaw Rajca, now retired from the Majdanek museum staff. Rajca’s estimate appears in the Wikipedia internet encyclopedia and in the exhibit at the Majdanek Museum. Rajca said that he “established that estimate on the basis of calculations by historians as published by the museum in the 1991 monograph on the camp. The people doing the research did not have access to all the sources, including some in Germany. Nor did I use all the records available in the museum archives, because they are fragmentary, and they will not be useful in analyzing the mortality figures at Majdanek until the data they contain is entered in the computers.”
 
* Many [[non-governmental organisations]] decide policy and leadership by voting.
:"Rajca emphasized that he had “not yet read Tomasz Kranz’s article, but, at first glance, his figures for the number of people killed in the camp seem incredibly low.”
* In business, corporations elect their boards by votes weighed by the number of [[share]]s held by each owner.
* [[Trade union]]s sometimes choose their leadership through democratic elections. In the U.S. democratic elections were rare before Congress required them in the 1950s.<!-- hiding, title or year appears wrong, which book is this? <ref> Seymour Martin Lipset, ''Union Democracy'' (1962)</ref>-->
* [[Cooperatives]] are enterprises owned and democratically controlled by their customers or workers.
 
== Definitions of the WORD Democracy ==
:We should include the range. --[[User:Goodoldpolonius2|Goodoldpolonius2]] 06:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Democracy is both a word and a concept, and these are quite intimately linked concepts. Dictionaries define "democracy as":
 
:*"Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system." <ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
::Polonius, it looks like we had an edit conflict. Feel free to add further to the note I added to the article if you think reservations should be stated. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 06:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 
:*"Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives."<ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
== Nazi vs. German ==
 
:*"A political or social unit that has such a government."<ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
THe Extermination camps were not established by the Nazi party, but by the legitimate German Government and/or military during the period when the Nazi party was in control. Should the title of this entry not be "German extermination camp", "Nazi-era German extermination camp"?? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:66.168.28.42|66.168.28.42]] ([[User talk:66.168.28.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/66.168.28.42|contribs]]) 19 April 2006.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->
:The current title follows prevailing English-language usage; either of your suggested titles would be a neologism. nd I think the prevailing usage is probably appropriate.
 
:*"The common people, considered as the primary source of political power."<ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
==Source of Term "Vernichtung"==
 
:*"Majority rule."<ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
Nowhere in the article is any source provided for the "fact" that the Nazis used the term "Vernichtungslager". When did the term come into existence? In what contemporary documents can it be found? Should the whole article be deleted because it is unsourced? Or are we content just to take everybody else's word for it?
 
:*"The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community."<ref>"democracy." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 22 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy>.</ref>
Here's one idea:
 
== See also ==
:''One of the earliest, if not the first account of an "extermination camp" in a major American periodical is the short article, "Vernichtungslager" which appeared in Time on August 21, 1944. The title alone is of great interest as it is rendered in German giving the appearance that the Germans referred to Majdanek (and perhaps other concentration camps) as a "Vernichtungslager" or "Extermination camp." No where in the literature or archives has this been found. The use of this German phrase was obviously intended by the editors at Time to add a dimension of mystery and evil.''
{{wikiquote}}
{{wiktionarypar|democracy}}
 
* [[Deliberative democracy]]
[[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 05:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
* [[Democratic Peace Theory]]
* [[List of types of democracy]]
* [[Poll]]
* [[Media democracy]]
* [[Islamic democracy]]
* [[Sociocracy]]
 
== Notes ==
::The article does not claim that the Nazis themselves used the term. In fact it states the opposite. (Last line, 'Terminology' section.)
{{Reflist}}
 
== Further reading ==
::What is the source for your para in italics? --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 06:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
* Joyce Appleby, ''Liberalism and Republicanism in the Historical Imagination'' (1992)
* Becker, Peter, Juergen Heideking and James A. Henretta, eds. ''Republicanism and Liberalism in America and the German States, 1750-1850.'' Cambridge University Press. 2002.
* Benhabib, Seyla, ed., ''Democracy and Difference: Contesting the Boundaries of the Political'' (Princeton University Press, 1996)
* [[Charles Blattberg]], ''From Pluralist to Patriotic Politics: Putting Practice First'', Oxford University Press, 2000, ch. 5. ISBN 0-19-829688-6
* Castiglione, Dario. "Republicanism and its Legacy," ''European Journal of Political Theory'' (2005) v 4 #4 pp 453-65.[http://www.huss.ex.ac.uk/politics/research/readingroom/CastiglioneRepublicanism.pdf#search=%22republicanism%20historiography%22 online version]
* Copp, David, Jean Hampton, and John E. Roemer, eds. ''The Idea of Democracy'' Cambridge University Press (1993)
* Dahl, Robert. ''Democracy and its Critics'', Yale University Press (1989)
* Dahl, Robert. ''On Democracy'' Yale University Press, 2000
* Dahl, Robert. Ian Shapiro, and Jose Antonio Cheibub, eds, ''The Democracy Sourcebook'' MIT Press 2003
* Davenport, Christian. [http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521864909 ''State Repression and the Domestic Democratic Peace''] Cambridge University Press (2007)
* Diamond, Larry and Marc Plattner, ''The Global Resurgence of Democracy'', 2nd edition Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996
* Diamond, Larry and Richard Gunther, eds. ''Political Parties and Democracy'' (2001)
* Diamond, Larry and Leonardo Morlino, eds. ''Assessing the Quality of Democracy'' (2005)
* Diamond, Larry, Marc F. Plattner, and Philip J. Costopoulos, eds. ''World Religions and Democracy'' (2005)
* Diamond, Larry, Marc F. Plattner, and Daniel Brumberg, eds. ''Islam and Democracy in the Middle East'' (2003)
* Elster, Jon (ed.). ''Deliberative Democracy'' Cambridge University Press (1997)
* Gabardi, Wayne. "Contemporary Models of Democracy," ''Polity'' 33#4 (2001) pp 547+.
* Held, David. ''Models of Democracy'' Stanford University Press, (1996), reviews the major interpretations
* Inglehart, Ronald. ''Modernization and Postmodernization. Cultural, Economic, and Political Change in 43 Societies'' Princeton University Press. 1997.
* Khan, L. Ali, ''A Theory of Universal Democracy.'' Martinus Nijhoff Publishers(2003)
* Lijphart, Arend. ''Patterns of Democracy. Government Forms and Performance in Thirty-Six Countries'' Yale University Press (1999)
* Lipset, Seymour Martin. “Some Social Requisites of Democracy: Economic Development and Political Legitimacy”, American Political Science Review, (1959) 53 (1): 69-105. online at JSTOR
* Macpherson, C. B. ''The Life and Times of Liberal Democracy.'' Oxford University Press (1977)
* Edmund Morgan, ''Inventing the People: The Rise of Popular Sovereignty in England and America'' (1989)
* Plattner, Marc F. and Aleksander Smolar, eds. ''Globalization, Power, and Democracy'' (2000)
* Plattner, Marc F. and João Carlos Espada, eds. ''The Democratic Invention'' (2000)
* Putnam, Robert. ''Making Democracy Work'' Princeton University Press. (1993)
* Raaflaub, Kurt A.; Ober, Josiah; Wallace, Robert W. ''Origins of democracy in ancient Greece''. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2007 (hardcover, ISBN 0520245628).
* Riker, William H., ''[[The Theory of Political Coalitions]] (1962)
* Sen, Amartya K. “Democracy as a Universal Value”, ''Journal of Democracy'' (1999) 10 (3): 3-17.
* Weingast, Barry. “The Political Foundations of the Rule of Law and Democracy”, ''American Political Science Review,'' (1997) 91 (2): 245-263. online at JSTOR
* Whitehead, Laurence ed. ''Emerging Market Democracies: East Asia and Latin America'' (2002)
* Wood, Gordon S. '' The Radicalism of the American Revolution'' (1993), examines democratic dimensions of republicanism
 
== External links ==
Thanks for pointing that out to me. Why must I source even my discussion entries when the article itself is largely unsourced? If you are you asking out of curiosity, then just google it. This article seems rather schizophrenic. The passive voice of the first sentence makes it sound as if the Nazis used the term. It should be amended. I will do so in one week if no one else does. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 10:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
{{linkfarm}}
* [http://www.journalofdemocracy.org Journal of Democracy]
* {{dmoz|Society/Politics/Democracy/}}
* [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/democracy Democracy] at the [[Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy]]
* [http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-78 Dictionary of the History of Ideas: Democracy]
* [http://www.democracywatch.org Democracy Watch (International)] &mdash; Worldwide democracy monitoring organization.
* [http://www.ifes.org IFES &mdash; supporting the building of democratic societies around the world]
* [http://www.democracyatlarge.org ''Democracy at large'' magazine &mdash; a quarterly magazine designed for professionals interested in democracy development worldwide]
* [http://topics.developmentgateway.org/governance dgGovernance] &mdash; Collection of resources on key issues of democracy and nation-building
* [http://www.ecoledelademocratie.org the site of the Association for the School of Democracy] a university-level research and training pluri- and transdisciplinary school of democracy
* [http://bostonreview.net/BR28.2/abou.html "Islam and the Challenge of Democracy"] by [[UCLA]] law professor [[Khaled Abou El Fadl]] in the April/May 2003 issue of ''[[Boston Review]]''
* [http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/international/20040901facomment_v83n4_siegle-weinstein-halperin.html New York Times argument against the "Development first, democracy later" idea]
* [http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/democracy.html ''The Rise of Illiberal Democracy''] by Fareed Zakaria
* [http://www.idea.int/ The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance]
* [http://www.opendemocracy.net openDemocracy] &mdash; [[Global democracy]] network using information, participation and debate to empower citizens.
* [http://www.polity.co.uk/book.asp?ref=9780745613819 Cosmopolitan democracy]
* [http://www.researchmethods.org/demomeasure Technologies of Measuring Democracy]
* [http://www.omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=2044&MenuID=719&ThreadID=1014008 The Danger of Democratic Self-Destruction,]
* [http://dca.tufts.edu/features/aas A New Nation Votes: American Elections Returns 1787-1825]
*[http://www.ncert.nic.in/textbooks/testing/Index.htm locate textbook for children of age group 14 to 16 on Democracy]You can download the soft versions of these books from this site by ''Selecting Class'' '''CLASS IX''' ''Selecting Subject'' '''Political Science''' ''Selecting Book title'' '''Political Science'''
 
;Critique
::I wasn't saying WP:CITE! WP:CITE!, I was just curious as you were clearly quoting some other source. I was hoping for a paper source, but googling turns up CODOH.com, and I advise you not to trust them, as they are despicable holocaust-denying shitwipes.
* [http://www.gegenstandpunkt.com/english/state/toc.html The Democratic State - A Critique of Bourgeois Sovereignty]
* [http://www.riff-raff.se/en/7/undemocracy.php Riff-Raff] &mdash; Democracy as the Community of Capital - A Provisional Critique of Democracy
* ''The Crisis of Representative Democracy''. Frankfurt a. M./Bern/New York: Peter Lang, 1987. Ed. by [[Hans Köchler]]. ISBN 3-8204-8843-X
* [http://blackthumb.wordpress.com/2006/12/05/democracy-liberty-equality/ Democracy, Liberty, Equality] What is the relation between democracy and liberalism? (A Dialogue)
* [http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/democracy.html Why democracy is wrong]
* [http://www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe4.html ''Democracy, The God That Failed'' by Hans-Hermann Hoppe]
* [http://www.conservativeclassics.com/books/libertybk/BK08.PDF ''Liberty or Equality'' by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn]
* [http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0105/0105churchilldem.htm ''Churchill on Democracy Revisited'' by J.K. Baltzersen]
* [http://www.iefd.org/index.php The INTERNATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY, progressive scholarship, critiques of democracy.]
 
;Alternatives and improvements - see also [http://www.wikocracy.com Wikocracy], [[E-democracy]] and [[Futarchy]]
::I further dug about to see if there was evidence that the Nazis themselves did distinguish between extermination and concentration camps, and they did. I've added that fact and the evidence for it to the article. Thanks for the help! --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 13:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
* [http://www.republic.org.uk Republic ]
* [http://www.philosophyparadise.com/essays/democraticmanifesto.html Democratic Manifesto]
* [http://www.globalpublic.org Conducting new experiments with democracy], ''Ethics & Democracy''
* [http://www.greens.org/s-r/36/36-22.html Democratic Deficit]
* [http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/lowell2.html ''On Democracy'' by James Russell Lowell]
* [http://simpol.org simpol.org] &mdash; Plan to limit global competition and facilitate the emergence of a sustainable, sane global civilization.
* [http://www.sfgd.org Students for Global Democracy]
* [http://www.johannesheinrichs.de/pdf/democracy.pdf Fourfold Social Order (The four-way-path-model of a future democracy)]
 
{{Forms_of_leadership}}
The Nuremberg trials were post-war, so do not qualify as "Nazi" use. I will change some of the wording to reflect this. I'd appreciate it if you would not get in to POV editing. Responses to interrogatories during a trial do not constitute proof of wartime use. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 15:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
{{enlightenment}}
:There is nothing POV about my edit. I refer to a book by a professional historian, who quotes a fairly senior '''Nazi''' describing the wartime attitude of the department responsible for deportations to the camps. When he says 'from the point of view of the Eichmann department', that has to be taken as their view ''during the war'', because the department was not functioning afterwards for obvious reasons.
 
[[zh:民&#x4E3
:How the Nazis referred to the extermination camps during the war I don't know, the numbers of people involved was kept to a minimum, a large amount of documentation was destroyed, and they used euphemisms to try to keep the operation of the camps secret. That is not particularly relevant, as modern historians (egs Bracher, Bullock, Dawidowicz) refer to the gassing camps as extermination camps or annihilation camps to distinguish them from 'normal' concentration camps. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 15:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[[Category:Democracy|*]]
[[Category:Elections]]
 
{{Link FA|ar}}
::I agree with you that the passive voice in the lead sentence is unhelpful. The problem is that the article starts by talking about the ''term'', rather than just saying what the camps were. I've sidestepped this by simplifying the first sentence, and moving synonyms/translation to the terminology section, which seems appropriate. The link to the Nuremberg trials is now in that section too, where Overy's book is cited. See what you think. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 22:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
{{Link FA|he}}
 
[[af:Demokrasie]]
Frankly I think you are purposely avoiding a fair and truthful account of the facts as known and perhaps you are engaging in original research. The fact is that the first known usage of the term is at the Nuremberg trials. This form of prevarication is rather dismaying in an article intended to be a representation of the current state of factual knowledge. I would also appreciate it if you could explain your apparent attitude that all of my edits can be removed while none of yours can be altered in the slightest. Thanks [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 06:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[[ar:ديمقراطية]]
 
[[ast:Democracia]]
::In what way am I engaging in original research? Of all the changes to this article in the last few days, I am the only person to have cited a professional historian.
[[bn:গণতন্ত্র]]
 
[[bs:Demokracija]]
::You say 'the fact is that the first known usage of the term is at the Nuremberg trials'. Do you have a citation from a reliable source for this strong claim? You are keen to insert it into the lead para of the article, but you have yet to produce one shred of evidence that it is true.
[[bg:Демокрация]]
 
[[ca:Democràcia]]
::Until this morning, you have made only two edits in quick succession to this page, the net change is here:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazi_extermination_camp&diff=52662096&oldid=52655458]. I explained in my edit summary why I changed this, but it is hardly 'removing all' your edits.
[[cs:Demokracie]]
 
[[cy:Democratiaeth]]
::I repeat, do you have a citation from a reliable source for this strong claim? You have yet to produce one shred of evidence that it is true. I will remove it again if you cannot support it. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 09:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[[da:Demokrati]]
 
[[de:Demokratie]]
I'm using your own reaearch, Squiddy. You dug about and found the earliest known usage. Until somebody else finds an earlier citation this would have to be it. By "original reasearch" I mean it seems as if you've extrapolated backwards from the Wisliceny testimony to infer that the term was in use during the war. (Looking back on the discussion, I see I may have misread your intent.) Maybe the Eichmann testimony would yield more information. It is difficult, even impossible, to prove the non-existence of anything -- all one can really do is show what is known. It does seem highly relevant in a discussion about the term to provide its origin. I think if there were documentary evidence from the war period it would have been exhibited in the history books. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 14:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[[et:Demokraatia]]
 
[[el:Δημοκρατία]]
:The passage quoted in Overy in no way allows you to state that 'No documents exist that reflect Nazi use of the term during the war.' Overy's book doesn't claim this is the earliest use of the term, and I didn't allege that either. If you want the article to contain the assertion that 'No documents exist that reflect Nazi use of the term during the war,' you will have to find a respectable source which says this. Since the archives of Nazi documents are huge, it would be a bold historian who would make this claim. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 17:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[[es:Democracia]]
 
[[eo:Demokratio]]
Squiddy, I'm slightly disappointed that yet again you feel you have the right unilaterally to remove my contributions to the article without dealing with my remarks. It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something. I'm beginning to wonder if you actually know what you're talking about. The burden is not on me to prove the Nazis DIDN'T use the term during the war, the burden is on you to prove they DID. I will edit to reflect this state of affairs. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 08:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[eu:Demokrazia]]
 
[[fa:مردم‌سالاری]]
:I do have the right to remove your unsourced contributions - it is Wikipedia policy that 'The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references.' I've told you this many times already, why are you having difficulty understanding it? Read the verifiability policy [[WP:V]].
[[fr:Démocratie]]
 
[[ga:Daonlathas]]
:The point is moot, anyway, I've found a Nazi source from 194'''2''', describing Auschwitz as 'das Lager der Vernichtung'. And yes, I've cited my source. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 11:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[gd:Deamocrasaidh]]
 
[[gl:Democracia]]
Now we're getting down to brass tacks. The fact that Kremer uses "Sonderaktion" instead of "Vergasung" is odd, since he had no reason to use code words to himself in his own diary. Sonderaktion is a rather generic term and can mean almost anything. Of course, he explains all this at his trial in Soviet-occupied communist Poland in 1946-47, for war crimes and facing a possible death penalty.
[[ki:Ndemookirathĩ]]
 
[[ko:민주주의]]
Strictly speaking the point is not "moot" at all, since you have not established widespread or official use of the term until after the war. Possibly it was a slang word, and indeed all sorts of unofficial reports were circulating throughout Europe at the time. (FTR, "moot" means something that is under discussion. In law schools it refers to an exercise in which one litigates an assigned case but in which there is no legal outcome. A kind of 'pretend court'. It is almost universally used the way you did, however, but I like to remember its original meaning: something having to do with a meeting of the minds.) [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 17:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[hi:लोकतंत्र]]
 
[[hr:Demokracija]]
:Well, well, well.
[[io:Demokratio]]
 
[[id:Demokrasi]]
:Anyone can stumble across a holocaust denial website, find something that looks interesting, and come to WP saying 'isn't this interesting' - that doesn't make someone a denier. That's why I've bent over backwards to assume good faith on your part even though that's how you started this thread. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANazi_extermination_camp&diff=52618480&oldid=52277519])
[[is:Lýðræði]]
 
[[it:Democrazia]]
:But we've been wrangling for days about the wartime usage of the term ''Vernichtungslager'', with you insisting that its first use was at the Nuremberg trials, and you never mentioned Kramer's diary (which does seem to have ''some relevance''). Then, less than seven hours after I post the Kramer diary quote, you are able to say 'Of course, he explains all this at his trial ...', sounding very much the expert. Did you suddenly go read up on this, or did you know it all along and decide not to mention it?
[[he:דמוקרטיה]]
 
[[ka:დემოკრატია]]
:But there's more. Doing a bit more research into Kramer's diary, I find that the Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson has written about it, saying "Never did he write that Auschwitz was a Vernichtungslager, that is, according to a terminology developed by Allies after the war, an 'extermination camp'." That's exactly the line you've been taking. (source here [http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92a/part-8.html], where Faurisson's rubbish is debunked.)
[[ht:Demokrasi]]
 
[[ku:Demokrasî]]
:And what sort of Sonderaktion do you think Kramer might have been referring to, which took place at Auschwitz, and which he describes as making Dante's Inferno look like a comedy?
[[la:Democratia]]
 
[[lv:Demokrātija]]
:Oh, and more. Looking at your contributions, you also kick off a thread on [[Talk:Dachau_concentration_camp]] with a different quote from the same denier website you quoted here ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADachau_concentration_camp&diff=52151507&oldid=51980593]).
[[lt:Demokratija]]
 
[[ln:Demokrasi]]
:You were good enough to share your suspicion that I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll share my suspicion. You're a Holocaust denier.
[[hu:Demokrácia]]
 
[[mk:Демократија]]
:This page would probably benefit from a few more knowlegeable editors, so I've listed it on requests for comment here [[WP:RFC/HIST]]. --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 21:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[mr:लोकशाही]]
 
[[nl:Democratie]]
I'm just following your lead, Squiddy. You linked to an article and I read it, and read as much as I could in a short time elsewhere. You seem to be finding conspiracy ghosts where none exist. I'm just an ordinary citizen and I would appreciate your NOT attempting to exercise some power of censorship over me. That would be abuse of power. Not only is censorship evil, it demonstrates that the perpetrator thereof has a weak case. I have attempted all along to be civil, and I have not deleted or vandalized your contributions. If you like name-calling, try '''censor''' on for size. I am extremely disappointed that one cannot have an intelligent debate here. I thought we were getting somewhere when you kept coming up with more precise information that really elucidated the whole issue; I thought it was a learning process we were both benefitting from. I hope you are not some sham propagandist who will only enforce his own viewpoint.
[[ja:民主主義]]
 
[[no:Demokrati]]
Moreover, I am not making unsourced additions to the article. I am encouraging you to adopt higher standards, which, frankly, I think you've done. You'll notice I made no additions or changes since your last one. Good work. Let's keep up the discussion, however, in as rational a tone as possible. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 21:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[nn:Folkestyre]]
 
[[pl:Demokracja]]
:If I've unjustly tarred you with that odious description, 'Holocaust denier,' I understand why you would take offense, and I am genuinely sorry. I just get a bad feeling in my bones when people quote CODOH.com and the like. One of the reasons I've requested other people to come and comment is to see if I am being overly intransigent or paranoid. I still can't shake that feeling, though... --[[User:Squiddy|Squiddy]] | [[User talk:Squiddy|<small>(squirt ink?)</small>]] 22:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[[pt:Democracia]]
 
[[ro:Democraţie]]
You seem like a fair-minded guy. Thanks for cutting me some slack and showing me a few of the errors of my ways. I'm happy to leave things as they are. [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] 02:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
[[qu:Akllanakuspa kamachinakuy]]
 
[[ru:Демократия]]
*Please keep in mind that [[User:Proskauer|Proskauer]] has been busy trying to insert [[Holocaust denial]] material into all sorts of articles, much of which I've already had to revert; for example, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Auschwitz_concentration_camp&diff=51704904&oldid=51650731] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazi_human_experimentation&diff=prev&oldid=51705253] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natzweiler-Struthof&diff=prev&oldid=51704249] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diana_Rowden&diff=prev&oldid=51703404] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zyklon_B&diff=prev&oldid=51702502] He's also had it explained to him on Talk: pages, so his protestations of innocence ring hollow. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 05:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
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