Talk:Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants and Template:Prime ministers of India: Difference between pages

Revision as of 16:23, 28 September 2006

Revision as of 16:10, 1 June 2007

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==Pointless commentary==

|name = Prime Ministers of India

This is terrible. It was her fault for spilling it.

|title = [[Prime Ministers of India]]

|body =

[[Jawaharlal Nehru|Nehru]] • [[Gulzarilal Nanda|Nanda]] • [[Lal Bahadur Shastri|Shastri]] • [[Gulzarilal Nanda|Nanda]] • [[Indira Gandhi|I. Gandhi]] • [[Morarji Desai|Desai]] • [[Choudhary Charan Singh|C. C. Singh]] • [[Indira Gandhi|I. Gandhi]] • [[Rajiv Gandhi|R. Gandhi]] • [[Vishwanath Pratap Singh|V. P. Singh]] • [[Chandra Shekhar|Shekhar]] • [[P. V. Narasimha Rao|Rao]] • [[Atal Bihari Vajpayee|Vajpayee]] • [[H. D. Deve Gowda|Gowda]] • [[Inder Kumar Gujral|Gujral]] • [[Atal Bihari Vajpayee|Vajpayee]] • [[Manmohan Singh|M. Singh]]

: The thing is that the product was unreasonably (and needlessly) dangerous. —[[User:Casey J. Morris|Casey J. Morris]]

}}

: the product was not unreasonably dangerous. It was reasonably dangerous since its dangerousness served a useful purpose: better taste. There are many products which are dangerous for good reasons like knives and cars. You weigh the risk with the benefits. People know hot coffee can burn them and smart people don't try to add sugar to coffee while in a car. Should we stop selling very sharp knives given that they are far more dangerous and cause far worse injuries than hot coffee. Also very sharp knives can be replaced by duller knives which do the same thing but are just more difficult to use. Also doesn't eliminating dangerous products deprive those who can handle the danger.

:: I think the article could use some more discussion of the juror's post-trial comments. AFAIK, the jurors dismissed McDonald's statistical claims that benefit outweighed cost for ''both'' McDonald's (700 claims in 10 years is statistically trivial and should not influence company policy) and the consumer (fresher, better-tasting coffee) because "every statistic is a person". If this is indeed the case, it's not the fault of McDonald's that people don't understand economics or probability theory. [[User:Dujang Prang|Dujang Prang]] 21:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

----

Please don't use the discussion page to discuss whether or not you approve of the subject. Wikipedia is not a web forum. The discussion page is meant for discussing the content of the article. --[[User:Tysto|Tysto]] 06:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really. The discussion page is also a good place for letting off steam instead of writing garbage in the actual article. A lot of people are outraged by things they see in the wikipedia and the discussion page is good place to discuss this.

:The discussion page is just that: a page for discussion on the subject at hand. I actually came here to ask a question about whether I missed something, since given the facts stated here it's very difficult to believe that the judge awarded her any damages at all. From what I read in the article, it seems someone a) knowingly put a carton containing hot coffee between her legs and b) pulled of the lid with enough force to tip the carton. First of, a reasonable person would not put a carton of any hot liquid between his legs. And you know that when a lid goes loose, this might result in jerky movements. The article gives no explanation of why the judge found that McDonalds had to pay up. A carton cup of hot coffee is just that. Even if you argue there should be a warning on it, what better warning would there be than the label itself. (I'm not especially familiar with McDonalds, but I've drank hot coffee from carton cups elsewhere, and it usually states HOT COFFEE or something similar. Which is totally redundant if your memory is good enough to remember your own order.) What warning could there possibly be that's not preempted by this label? The article leaves people with questions, and so people flock to the discussion page. [[User:Gerbrant|Shinobu]] 12:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

==Expansion?==

It needs to be added that the coffee was served extra hot because water expands when it is heated up, and thus people think they are getting more coffee than they actually are. This is a good example of companies doing something which will detract from the product for marketing reasons. There was no practical reason for the coffee to be so hot. Another example would be feeding cows salt, which makes them retain more water so they weigh more, even though they have no more actual meat. This renders their manure, which could otherwise make good fertilizer, useless.

: That seems rather unlikely; the difference is only marginal. It's the taste that they were concerned with. —[[User:Casey J. Morris|Casey J. Morris]]

What a ridiculous statement. I double dog dare you to look at a cup of hot water and a cup of cold water and tell me which is more voluminous. You can't. Mcdonalds served their coffee that hot so that it would still be hot when the customers got to work. This article is terribly POV, in the old lady's favor. [[User:Happy cricket|Happy cricket]] 03:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

== Answers to common arguments in McDonald's Coffee Case ==

<p>

According to the [http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DianaGendler.shtml The Physics Factbook], the best temperature at which to brew coffee is between 85 C and 93 C (176 F to 200 F). These temperature ranges also correspond to just about all home coffee makers sold today. However, the longer the coffee is exposed to those high temperatures the faster the organic matter breaks down. This produces the bitterness so often found in coffee.

</p>

<p>

The question of expansion is moot since the average temperature at which McDonalds keeps their coffee is approximately the same as coffee makers found in homes today. But, for the sake of argument let's assume the following:

</p>

<ul>

<li>Diameter of an 8 oz McDonalds coffee cup (near the top) is 3 in (7.68 cm).</li>

<li>Cylinder height = h</li>

<li>Formula for a cylinder's volume is Vc = h x pi x r^2</li>

<li>8 oz (US liquid) of coffee is approximately 2.366 x 10^-4 m^3</li>

<li>Average McDonalds coffee temperature (Tmc) = 89 C</li>

<li>Hypothetical average coffee temperature for sensitive mouths (Ts) = 60 C</li>

<li>Volume Coeffecient of thermal expansion of water (B) = 210 x 10^-6 C^-1</li>

<li>Change in Volume = Vd (delta)</li>

<li>Change in Temperature = Td (delta)</li>

<li>Formula for the change in volume is Vd = B x Vo x Td</li>

</ul>

<p>

Plugging the numbers into the formula give us:

</p>

<p>

Vd = (210 x 10^-6)(2.366 x 10^-4)(89 C - 60 C)<br/>

Vd = 1.44x10^-6m^3 or 1.44 cm^3<br/>

</p>

<p>

The change in the level of the coffe in the cup (when full) is solved by finding h.<br/>

</p>

<p>

h = Vc / (pi x r^2)<br/>

h = (1.44 cm^3) / (3.14.15 x 3.84^2)<br/>

h = 0.031 cm or 0.31 mm<br/>

</p>

<p>

The change in volume between these two temperatures is therefore negligible.

</p>

<p>

--<br/>

Larry Snider<br/>

[http://www.esnider.net eSnider.net]

</p>

You are confusing serving and brewing temperatures. It may be customary to brew coffee at such high temperatures; it is not to serve and drink it, particularly in flimsy recepticles [[User:FrFintonStack|FrFintonStack]] 03:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

:You might prefer coffee that stood around for a while. You are part of a negligible minority. Most people want their coffee fresh. There are plenty of methods known to cool down a cup of coffee once you have it: Stirring, blowing over it, dropping some ice into it, pouring more milk in etc. etc. etc. Which, incidentally, is the comment with which a british judge laughed a plaintiff and her attorney out of court. McD isn't called a fast-food restaurant in vain. They need to get their stuff out to the customer. "Sorry Ma'am, you'll have to wait for five more minutes for the coffee to cool down" is not something leading to customer satisfaction. The coffee, however, is -in all but a negligible number of cases. We don't build planes for the case that all engines fail and the cockpit crew suffers a collective nervous breakdown all at the same time either. --[[User:OliverH|OliverH]] 16:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

::Okay, so feel free to tell us why plenty of other fast food places had and have no problem serving fresh coffee at temperatures that won't scald.--[[User:71.112.234.168|71.112.234.168]] 06:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

:: "'' There are plenty of methods known to cool down a cup of coffee once you have it: Stirring, blowing over it, dropping some ice into it, pouring more milk in etc. etc. etc''"

From the article:

"''so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee.

She placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.''"

So the was burn't ''because'' she performed an act (removing the lid) which would have been compulsory if she had wanted to cool the coffee with milk or ice. [[User:Apokrif|Apokrif]] 16:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

== Actual Data Point ==

<p>Someone in my family was working at McDonald's about that time. She said many of the stores were switching from the usual brew-pot setups to single-serving equipment that used forced steam. These machines would yield a liquid at nearly the boiling point, if not actually superheated. She herself was burned by the equiment many times.</p>

<p>Whether or not you think it's negligent to put a liquid at a temperature that causes third-degree burns within seconds into flimsy cups and hand them out a window to motorists (who in 1992 typically had nowhere to put them but between their legs), no evidence has been given to support your premises that McDonald's brewing procedures are based on "the best temperature at which to brew coffee" or that the "average temperature at which McDonalds keeps their coffee is approximately the same as coffee makers found in homes today".</p>

RESPONSE: Negligence goes both ways. Motorists who go to McDonalds know they will be receiving coffee in a flimsy cup and that it will be handed to them through a window. Therefore they have implicitly taken responsibility for the danger associated with these aspects of serving coffee. About the only thing a motorist might not know is how hot and dangerous the coffee is but I think even this is reasonably understood. Determining negligence and liability is not about protecting people from themselves.

==Improved POV==

I would say that the POV in this article is becoming fairly neutral. How/by whom is the decision made to take down the NPOV flag? --[[User:Mddake|Mddake]] 09:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks like [[User:Martin Wisse|Martin Wisse]] took care of that. Thanks. --[[User:Mddake|Mddake]] 02:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I made a couple of edits for POV statements. The editor who wrote this should not make assumptions about what is clear to the readers, particularly involving cases that never saw litigation. [[User:Happy cricket|Happy cricket]] 03:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following sentence: "Phrased another way, more than 23,999,999 people managed to safely drink their cup of coffee for each complainant who did not." One, it's inaccurate, as the fact that only one in 24 million people complained does not indicate that only one in 24 million were injured; many people could have been lightly scalded and not complained. Two, the statistic "one in 24 million complained" speaks for itself, and I think the 23,999,999 figure is thrown in to mock the people who complained, and thus represents POV. [[user:lamontacranston]] 09:08, 28 July 2006

:That's fine. Encyclopedias don't need "phrased another way" sentences. --[[User:Deathphoenix|Deathphoenix]] [[User_talk:Deathphoenix|'''ʕ''']] 17:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

==National Coffee Association of USA==

I was suspicious of the claim about the National Coffee Association of USA; the link was broken, but I found the new page (the temp was slightly lower). Even given that they recommend that coffee be maintained at 180-185 degrees to maintain flavor, it's hard to understand how they can recommend coffee be served at that temperature when liquids above 140 degrees will scald. It would be nice to separate what evidence was presented in court versus what evidence Wikipedians dig up on the Web. This case seems simple enough: get a McDonald's rep on the stand and dare him to handle and drink coffee at 190 degrees. Did that happen? --[[User:Tysto|Tysto]] 06:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

: That strategy worked wonders in the O.J. Simpson case. "If the man drinks the joe, the lawsuit has to go" or "If he don't drink it all, Mickey D's takes the fall" [[User:Dujang Prang|Dujang Prang]] 21:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should he drink the coffee. Most people wait for their coffee to cool down before they drink it. That's normal. Also you make it seem like drinking coffee from McDonalds is like juggling knives and walking a tightrope. But millions of people drink coffee at McDonalds everyday without getting serious injuries. Hell I find it hard to believe that you have never drunk coffee at McDonalds unless you are not from the United States. It is not very unusual. I don't think a McDonald's rep would have a problem drinking and handling hot coffee. That would be like asking him to tie his shoe laces.

== Cleanup ==

Any article that consists of over half of lists is usually misformatted. Lists should not be used to list things that are better shown as ordinary paragraphs. This article is no exception. The article should be reformatted a bit to remove the list markup and use normal paragraphs. --''[[User:Wwwwolf|wwwwolf]]'' ([[User talk:Wwwwolf|barks]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wwwwolf|growls]]) 10:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted a change where someone inexplicably changed only one instance of "McDonald's" to "McDonalds." If there was some reason for the change, let me know.[[User:Lamontacranston|Lamontacranston]] 21:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm switching the 6 and 16 percent numbers as there is a reference to the 6 percent alone and it certainly seems more reasonable... If someone can find a stong reference to the 16 please feel free to revert - [[User:Acq3|Acq3]] 23:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

==Jackpot Justice==

I have a question. Isn't there a wellknown expression called "jackpot justice"? I have often this story and other - possibly urban legends - as examples of jackpot justice. So why does wikipedia not have an article about it? [[User:Medico80|Medico80]] 14:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

==Liebeck's age==

Does anyone know if Stella is alive now, and if not, when she died? [[User:Leonsedov|Leonsedov]] 17:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

== In Popular Culture ==

[http://www.newsaic.com/mlseinfeld.html#coffee Kramer sues Starbucks] on [[Seinfeld]] for a Hot Coffe.