Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Morac-Songhrati and Tonbridge Angels F.C.: Difference between pages

Revision as of 00:15, 25 April 2004

Revision as of 18:18, 2 June 2007

Line 1:

{{Football club infobox |

This page seems to be about a micronation of some sort. It is confused, information about Bermuda interspersed with info about an island in the South China Sea. [[User:Danny|Danny]] 11:09, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

clubname = Tonbridge Angels |

image = [[Image:TAngels.jpg]] |

fullname = Tonbridge Angels Football Club |

nickname = The Angels |

founded = [[1947]] |

ground = [[Longmead Stadium]], [[Tonbridge]] |

capacity = 5,000 (202 Seats) |

chairman = Nick Sullivan |

manager = Tony Dolby |

league = [[Isthmian League Premier Division]] |

season = 2006–07 |

position = [[Isthmian League Premier Division]], 11th |

pattern_la1=|pattern_b1=|pattern_ra1= |

leftarm1=4040FF|body1=4040FF|rightarm1=4040FF|shorts1=4040FF|socks1=4040FF|

pattern_la2=|pattern_b2=|pattern_ra2= |

leftarm2=#FF0000|body2=#FF0000|rightarm2=#FF0000|shorts2=#000000|socks2=#FF0000|

}}

'''Tonbridge Angels''' are a [[football (soccer)|football]] club in [[Tonbridge]], [[Kent]], [[England]]. They play at the Longmead Stadium, in [[Tonbridge]] and have done so since 1980, after moving from the Angel Ground.

The Angels gained promotion to the [[Isthmian League Premier Division]] after winning the 2005-06 promotion playoffs, winning the playoff final match 3-2 over local rivals [[Dover Athletic F.C.|Dover Athletic]].

That's because I was using the data on Bermuda as a Template. And yes, Morac-Songhrati could be refered to as a Micronation, although Micro-Colony is more accurate. --[[User:217.95.58.172|217.95.58.172]] 11:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Notable ex-players include the [[England national football team|England]] international and Geordie legend [[Malcolm Macdonald]] and [[Aston Villa]]'s league championship winning manager [[Ron Saunders]].

* This micronation stuff is getting out of hand. As far as I can tell, this state is fictional. Delete. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 21:14, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

==History==

*As far as you can tell? Please expand upon which quantifiable evidence you're basing this on? Failing that, I suggest you cease being so Hasty as to draw lines in the Sand between what constitutes a micronation 'worthy' of listing, and what does not. Last time I checked, Wikipedia was a site to provide facts. Thus, unless you can disprove it's existance, or add a more compelling reason to delete it, I suggest that it be left. After all, we have a page on Sealand, and Porto Claro. What makes them any more real than this?--[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 22:10, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

'''Tonbridge Football Club''' was formed in October 1947 at the suggestion of local businessman Herbert Portch and elected to the [[Southern Football League]] for the 1948-49 season. The club initially played at the Angel Ground, a former cricket ground named after a nearby pub.

**Maybe the fact that those places actually exist? [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 22:52, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

*** [[Sealand]] exists, at any rate. I'm not so sure about Porto Claro, but [[Porto Claro]] has strictly factual information about what it is, and does not attempt to confuse fantasy with reality. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 00:39, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

----

I deleted this under the speedy delete criterion that it was fictional history disguised to fool people into thinking that it was a real place. [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 22:52, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Throughout the 1950s the Angels (as they were nicknamed at the time, although it was not yet formally part of the club's name) struggled to make any progress in the Southern League and were eventually relegated from the Premier Division in 1961-62, but were promoted back two years later only to be relegated back to Division One once again in 1965-66.

I'm sorry Rick, but I disagree. Unless you can definatively prove that Morac-Songhrati dosen't exist, I'm going to keep putting the article back up. In addition, Cyrius, can you tell me on what basis you say the content is a confused mass of fantasy/fiction? I'd be very interested to hear your comments --[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 10:53, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In 1972-73 the Angels won promotion back to the Premier Division, but after struggling to stay in the top flight the club suffered financial troubles and went into voluntary liquidation in early 1976. A new club was then formed and allowed to complete the club's remaining fixtures on the understanding that relegation would automatically result at the end of the season. Around the same time the club's landlords, the local council, announced that they wanted the Angel Ground for development. A lengthy legal battle ensued before the club was eventually offered a new ground at Longmead, its present home, where they moved in 1980.

*Delete. Anon votes don't count, [[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]], so unless you sign them you are wasting your time and ours. Support RickK's action on this. This is ridiculous. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 09:55, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In 1989, after a disastrous season, the Angels were relegated to the [[Kent League]] where they spent four seasons before winning the title and with it promotion in 1992-93. Around this time they also formally adopted "Angels" as part of the club’s official name.

*Yes Andrewa, my bad. I did forget to sign that one. However, nobody has yet given any reason for beliving that this is ficticious. And I for one, would like to hear some reasons before people go deleting articles. --[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 10:53, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

**Comment: Adequate reasons were given above IMO. You've got it backwards I'm afraid, content needs to be ''verifiable'', and unverifiable content is liable for deletion. If it's less than an article it goes to the talk page, but there has been no attempt to provide sources for any of this so far as I can see, and in this case that's essential. However your last edit before deletion does look interesting, and at present you need sysop status to see it. Would you like it restored, so we can have proper deletion debate? [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 14:42, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

**OK, how about the fact that the countries disputing ownership of the Spratly Island group don't include the United Kingdom - China, Taiwan, and Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines and Brunei all claim at least some of the islands. The population is entirely soldiers from some of the above named countries. [[http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pg.html CIA Factbook]] The Phillipines control West York Island. The BBC has a number of news articles on these islands, none of which ever mention any civilian inhabitants whatsoever, let alone Britons (one link for example [[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3638323.stm BBC News]]). No mention of "West York Island" is found in Hansard, indicating no particular British interest in that island. Where they do mention the Spratly Islands (e.g. 1 Mar 2002 : Column WA99, or on 20 Jan 1999 : Column WA99 - use the [[http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/dialogserverTSO Hansard search]] for more ), they mention no British civilians in the region. In summary, I am unable to find any mention of a British claim from a number of reliable sources that would be particularly likely to mention any British civilians in the area. Conclusion - this is a made up claim of another countries' territorial property. Furthermore, this sort of thing threatens to add incorrect information to correct pages (currently both West York Island and Spratly Island Group are correct). Delete. [[User:Average Earthman|Average Earthman]] 14:55, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

***Comment: Yes, that's the sort of stuff we need. I've reinstated my delete vote, above. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 15:20, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Angels briefly led the Southern Division on their return to the Southern League in the 1993-94 season but settled for a mid-table finish, which is where they were to generally stay until 2004 when a lengthy unbeaten run saw them finish in 3rd place in what had by then become the Eastern Division.

**Ok. Let's have a look at the facts. Fact 1 - The Islands are called the SPRATLY ISLANDS. The were first mapped by a BRITISH Captain Spratly, in 1880 (Not, 1763, as I initially thought). My reference for that fact? http://www.law.du.edu/ilj/online_issues_folder/whiting.pdf Fact 2 - The British built an Obseration tower on Itu Abu Island in the Mid 1800's. A simple search on google will provide evidence of this fact. Fact 3 - The British Settlments Act (1887, Revised 1945) grants British Citizens the right to claim, as crown territory, any land in which there is "no civilised government". It furthermore allows them to hold it "by act of settlment". As this act of Parliament predates the digitisation of the Parlimentary statues archieve, you can't find a copy of it on the internet. However, if you visit any UK library, and check their back archieve of Parliamentary Statutes, you will find that it is in there. Furthermore, if you check it's status, you will find that it has never been repealed. Fact 4 - The British government underwrites the security of ALL british citizens abroad. Fact 5 - The British government does not acknowledge the occupation of the Islands. It does not accept the residence of the citizens there. Hansard is not a definative work. It does not cover all British citizens abroad. Anyone who works with the Law can tell you that. These are the facts. Let's debate these, BEFORE we make any hasty changes. --[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 15:21, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

*** Your "facts" are either irrelevant or unverifiable. You still haven't shown that any of the information about the so-called colony itself is true. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 19:10, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

***Just in case anyone was in any doubt: http://www.angelfire.com/ri/songhrati/disclaimer.html [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 19:30, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The 2004 re-organisation of the [[English football league system]] saw the Angels placed in the [[Isthmian League]] Premier Division. They were relegated in their very first season but bounced back at the first attempt, winning the promotion play-offs to return to the Premier Division for the 2006-07 season.

::Delete. BTW even if the territory was claimed by a civilian "for the Crown", doesn't mean the crown has to accept it. Xanatos 2097 seems to look on Hansard as some sort of CIA worled fact book. Hansard '''is''' a ''definitive work'', noting on 20 Jan 1999 at Column WA99 that "Lord Kennet asked Her Majesty's Government: ''To which country the Spratly Islands belong''.[HL518]<p>reply from Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: '''The Spratlys are claimed in whole or part by China, Taiwan, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei. All except Brunei have established a military presence there, but all have declared their intention to resolve claims peacefully. Her Majesty's Government support no claimant and have encouraged peaceful resolution.''' "

::The article is a fact/fiction mix discrediting wikipedia and should be deleted [[User:Garryq|garryq]] 00:15, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Angels finished the 2006-07 season in mid-table of Ryman League Premier Division with striker [[Jon Main]] scoring 44 goals in all competitions.

==Honours==

*Kent League champions 1992-93

*Kent League Cup 1989-90 & 1991-92

*Kent League Charity Shield 1993-94

*Kent Senior Cup 1964-65 & 1974-75

*Kent Floodlit Cup 1963-64 & 1966-67

*Kent Senior Shield 1951-52, 1955-56, 1957-58, 1958-59 & 1963-64

*Metropolitan League champions 1952-53

*Metropolitan League Cup 1951-52, 1952-53 & 1956-57

*Isthmian League Division One Playoff Winners 2005-06

== Players ==

Yes. Absolubtly. Look at that website. It makes the point that there WAS at one point, a REPUBLIC of Morac-Songhrati-Meads. It makes no mention of the new colony. As regards Cyrius' last post about the article, it was derogatory and excesively vicious, IMHO. In what way are these fatcs irrelevant? What facts would be relevant? If you expect me to fly to the Island and take a video journal of the goings on there, simply to satisfy your curiosity/disbelife, then you are severly mistaken. The information I presented ruled out the fact that the colony was 'impossible', IMHO. Further than doing that, I don't see how I can further prove it's existance, although I'll do my best to find information to answer any questions you may pose.

=== Current Squad ===

''As of [[19 February]], [[2007]]:''

{{Fs start}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=Northern Ireland|name=Aaron Kerr|pos=GK}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Matt Bromby|pos=GK}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Scott Gooding|pos=DF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Steve Aris|pos=DF|other=captain}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=John Beales|pos=DF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Mike Cramp|pos=DF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Mark Green|pos=DF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Jon Heath|pos=DF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Luke Piscina|pos=MF}}

{{Fs mid}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Nick Barnes|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Robert Kember|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Scott Kinch|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=Northern Ireland|name=Ryan Maxwell|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=Scotland|name=Fraser Logan|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Ian Parkes|pos=MF}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=[[Jon Main]]|pos=FW}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Ray Powell|pos=FW}}

{{Fs player|no=-|nat=England|name=Adam O'Neill|pos=FW}}

{{Fs end}}

=== Notable former players ===

Incidentally, I find it very interesting though that MarkAlexander uses the existance of a simulated country to decry the existance of another entity, which is largely unrelated. I fail to see the link. Using the logic that seems to have been applied there, one could argue that if I set up a website saying that Taiwan is not a real country, then it isn't, and most of us would argue that were not the case.

*[[Neil Emblen]] ([[Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.|Wolverhampton Wanderers]])

*[[Paul Emblen]] ([[Charlton Athletic F.C.|Charlton Athletic]] & [[Wycombe Wanderers F.C.|Wycome Wanderers]])

*[[Malcolm Macdonald]] ([[Luton Town F.C.|Luton Town]], [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]], [[Newcastle United F.C.|Newcastle United]], [[Fulham F.C.|Fulham]] and [[England national football team|England]])

*[[Ron Saunders]] ([[Charlton Athletic F.C.|Charlton Athletic]] & [[Watford F.C.|Watford]])

*[[Marcel Gaillard]] ([[Crystal Palace F.C.|Crystal Palace]] & [[Portsmouth F.C.|Portsmouth]])

==Sources==

Perhaps I've wandered off the point a little here. Nevertheless, I fail to see what else I can do to supress your disbelife. --[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 20:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

*{{fchd|name=Tonbridge Angels|id=TONBRIDA}}

==External links==

I deleted it again. Quit adding false information. What part of "this website does not depict a real nation" do you not understand? [[User:RickK|Rick]]'''[[User talk:RickK|K''']] 21:41, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

*[http://www.tonbridgeangels.co.uk/ Tonbridge Angels Official Site]

*[http://www.tonbridgeafc.co.uk/ Tonbridge Angels Unofficial Site]

{{Isthmian League Prem}}

Well, that'd be the part where you say that it isn't a real nation. I argue that it is just as real as Sealand, and Porto Claro, which both have Articles. Infact, Porto Claro is actually declared, IN ITS ARTICLE to be an imaginary country. That'd be the part I don't understand. The Hypocrisy part. And until you can justify that, I'm going to keep putting it back up. As you will notice, the new article has nothing but the bare facts. Just like Porto Claro. Now, let's hear the reasons why you won't accept it, properly, and in a civilised manner, and, if the majority then agree with your POV, fine delete it. But lets discuss it first, like the civilised individuals we proport to be.--[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 21:58, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[[Category:English football clubs]]

:You still haven't provided references that say it is real, or even a notable fiction. Calling people names isn't a good strategy for convincing them you're right. You also might want to stop recreating the article. Admins tend to look unfavorably on doing that. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998]] 22:31, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)

[[Category:Isthmian League]]

[[Category:Sport in Kent]]

[[Category:Football (soccer) clubs established in 1948]]

[[Category:Tonbridge and Malling]]

[[nl:Tonbridge Angels FC]]

I wasn't aware that I had called anybody 'names'. The fact is that, further than proving that the existance of the colony is not impossible, and short of going there myself, I can't really do anything to convince you otherwise. Does anbody have a suggestion of what constitutes evidence of its existance? Because if they do, I, personally, would love to hear it. In my opinion at least, the burden of evidence should be as in a court of law - you have to prove that I am guilty of an offence (e.g. posting a false article) before you find me guilty and punish me (e.g. Deleting it). Whatever happened until 'innocent until proven guilty'?

As a side note, quite frankly, I don't really care that Admins will 'look 'unfavourably' on me recreating the article. I don't really 'look favourably' on it's continued deletion. I don't think it's a) Right, or b) Fair to delete the article while the debate is still in progress. --[[User:Xanatos 2097|Xanatos 2097]] 23:43, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)